Jesus' Limitations; A Threat to Faith?

[Mustardseed]

Hi Beserk
Interesting reading. I will have to read it again but it sure sounds right on to me.
Regards Mustardseed
PS why the name Beserk, do you know what it means?

[Berserk]

Dear Mustardseed,

My original Username for this site was "Deadworm."  I forgot about the site for a long time.  By the time I decided to return, I had forgotten my handle.  A website coordinator ultimately reminded me of my former nickname.  But I wanted a name just a shade more sophisticated.  So I chose "Berserk", my handle on a chess site.  I gave myself that name for two reasons: (1) In chess, I love unorthodox frenzied attacks.  (2) "Berserker" was a term to designate frenzied (often daft) Viking warriors, and as a Swede, I am descended from a long line of raping and pillaging Viking invaders.  I hope this makes perfectly good sense.

[Lighthouse]

Berserk,

Thank you for such a thoughtful post.  What I am about to say, some will say is the Devil, some will say is blastphemous and some will say I will go to hell for saying it.  Let them believe what they will for they have been taught to believe in a wrathful angry vengeful God who is judgmental and unyielding.  There are also some who will say that it makes sense and will agree, let them agree for this is also their perception.  

It is my belief that Jesus was no more Divine than we are, we are all sons and daughters of God.  Each individual expressions of the Divinity that dwells within each of us and we all have within us the power and greatness that Jesus had.  The main differentiator is that we (with a few exceptions) do not know who we are.  We see God as being outside of us and do not recognize that we all are Gods, we have only forgotten our true nature.  This is why Jesus incarnated and died the way he did, so that he would show us the way and we would know who we are.  He was 100% human and 100% Divine, as we all are, his youth was a period of remembering for him.  The difference between him and the rest of us is our willingness to learn.  

God can not experience herself as God unless there are limitations.  This physical realm we choose to live is is the exact, brilliant modality God needs to experience God's infinite nature.  We can not experience Joy unless we know sorrow, we can not know security without the contrast of insecurity.  This is why God created Yin and Yang.  We can not know a thing if all we ever experience is that thing.  We have nothing to compare it to.  Of course Jesus had to experience doubt and uncertainty.  Without it, he would not have known who he was and is.  

The same goes for us.  We all need to experience limitations (we have chosen the perfect setting for it... this physical universe of space and time)  in order to experience out true nature which is limitless and infinite.  Life is an ongoing process of experiencing the expansion and contraction of our awareness and through that, we are experiencing ourselves as God.  For God can only experience God through us for we are each individual sparks that make up the entirety of who we are... and we are all individual expressions of God.

Kerri

[Berserk]

Dear Lighthouse,

Thanks for sharing what I regard as a very articulate expresson of a standard New Age position.  I think of myself as a conservative Christian, though many evangelicals consider me a liberal heretic.  I worship and adure Jesus as the unique revealer.  That said, rather than express disagreements with your outlook, I will accentuate the biblical points of contact with it.  There is not enough dialogue between Christians and New Age devotees who have often become disillusioned with Christianity for good reason.

In light of your remarks, it is interesting to reflect on the meaning of the creation of humanity in "the image of God" (Genesis 1:27).  Ancient use of the Hebrew term for "image" suggests this interpretation: Powerful kings arranged for images of themselves to be erected in conquered lands.  These images symbolized the presence and authority of the king despite his physical absence.  From this perspective, we represent God's presence and authority in our universe.  In other words, our creation in God's image implies that we are mini-creators or mini-gods.

This understanding underlies Jesus' response to charges of blasphemy. Jesus compares the godlike quality of humanity with His own divine status.  To paraphrase Jesus' words in John 10:33-36:  "If the Bible elevates you to the status of gods (citing Psalm 82:6), why the snit over my claim to be the Son of God?"

Paul implies that there are many heavens.  He locates Paradise in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).  So heaven seems to be a Jewish metaphor for postmortem evolutionary soul profession through many planes.  But evolution towards what goal?  Towards union with God.  It is better to think of union with God--not heaven--as our ultimate destiny.  Paul teaches that everything comes from God and everything will return to God (Romans 11:36) and that even now we "live. . .and exist" in God (Acts 17:28).  But perhaps Peter comes closest to the New Age perspective with his insistence that we are destined "to participate in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)."  This claim goes way beyond the traditional understanding of our creation in God's image.

As for your point that we share Jesus' miracle-working potential, few Christians have come to terms with Jesus' stunniing claim in John 14:12: "He who believes in me will also perform the works that I perform and will even DO GREATER WORKS THAN THESE because I go to the Father" and hence by implication "because I will send my Holy Spirit to achieve these miracles through them."

Don (aka Berserk)

[chill]

Wow, Berzerk ! Your posts fill me with pleasure goose bumps!
Charm and wit and a incredible sense of humor ! I am glad you've joined the absence-of-party here !

Hi Mustardseed ! I give you a big hug if I may. I hope that life is very sweet with you this summer. I worked my but-t off on an essay called "Channelscience" in June, which is on-line, in French. You want to see it ? Pm me.

I still suffer from negs attachment, I think. I have never been sure about this. By the way, working on my essay gave me a lot of phyisical pain, part of which can be attributed to sitting down for extended periods of time in front of the computer, or standing up for hours in libraries, reading books. I hope that McArthur can help me. But I'd have to PM him about it. He knows nothing about this. Well, I think... isn't life complicated or what ? I pm-ed someone else, thinking it might be him, we'll see...

[kakkarot]

is the point of power to change the world then, whereever and whenever you can, without just letting things be? is it to change it so you can be happy... or so others can? and is death, the way that all the earth goes, really that bad? [|)]

~kakkarot

[The AlphaOmega]

I just have a short response.  Perhaps the reason that Jesus did not resurrect his father was because Joseph was not his father, and his soul purpose on earth was to do his heavenly fathers will, not Mary's, not Josephs.  Also, maybe because at the time of Josephs death Jesus was not yet meant to start his ministery.  As for not being able to heal, I don't think this was the case.  But throughout the bible Jesus heals the faithful.  During his judgement Jesus was taken to be judged by King Herod.  Herod demanded Christ to perform miracles if he wished to be freed.  Christ said and did nothing.  It wasn't that he couldn't, it was that Herod didn't believe he was the son of God and wouldn't do miracles to convince him.  Believers were formed not when they were healed, but when they heard of someone faithful being healed.  When the roman soldier came to Jesus and asked Him to heal his son, Jesus did it because of the soldiers faith in him.  I'm sure there's an answer for it, these are just some ideas of mine.  I don't however believe these small passages to be a threat to faith.

[BirdManKalki]

It is my belief that Jesus never healed anyone, and that they healed themselves. As Jesus said

"Your faith has healed you"

This meaning because they believed Jesus could heal them they were healed.

You find for me a single passage in the bible were Jesus claims to have healed someone. Accounts of Jesus healing are the accounts of witnesses who would believe from what they were seeing that Jesus was healing. Were in fact it is the other way round

BIRDMAN

[exothen]

quote:You find for me a single passage in the bible were Jesus claims to have healed someone.

Mark 2:5-11, '5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you." 6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic, 11 I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."'

Is there any reason to doubt that Jesus did the healing? The Bible teaches that faith opens the way for God to do the miraculous. Peoples' faith opened the way for Jesus' healing, but they didn't heal themselves. See also Mark 6:2-5.

[Berserk]

Many Christians imagine that the earthly Jesus was omnipotent and omniscient.  The New Testament decisively refutes this claim.  Prior to Jesus' baptism by John, Jesus was merely a humble carpenter in Nazareth.  His step-father Joseph apparently died before Jesus' adult ministry.  Joseph figures in no story of the adult Jesus' mission.
And at the cross, Jesus entrusts the care of His mother to the Beloved Disciple.  This would not happen if Joseph was alive to take care of his own wife!  Early Christian tradition rightly insists that Joseph is dead by then.  

Why didn't Jesus heal His earthly Dad and allow him to witness His ministry?   Because He couldn't!  There is no credible evidence that Jesus performed any miracles prior to receiving the Holy Spirit at His baptism.  Then He became an incredible healer!  Obviously the Holy Spirit made the difference.  But why would Jesus need to receive the Holy Spirit if He was walking around with a divine nature that made Him onmipotent?

The earthly Jesus was not omnipotent.  In His first messianic visit to Nazareth, He encounters venemous skepticism.  As a result, "He could do no miracle there. . .(Mark 6:5)."  This means He tried and failed.  Commentators agree that a later scribe adds the awkward qualifying clause, "except He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them."  Note the text is not worded, "He could only heal a few sick people."  The awkwardness of the contradiction, "could do no" and "except, etc." gives away the later gloss.  In copying Mark, Matthew (13:58) cleans up this problem by changing "could do no" to "did not do many" and thus removes the embarrassing implication of apparent failure.

In Mark 8:22-26 it takes Jesus two prayer sessions to heal the blind man of Bethsaida.  If he were omnipotent, He could do the job right the first time.  But who cares as long as he ultimately heals the guy?  Frankly, these embarrassing texts inspire rather than depress me.  They imply a willingness to tell how it really was, including failures, and make the rest of the miracle stories more credible.      

Our Gospels contain only one story about Jesus' life between His infancy and His baptism by John--the story of a precocious 12-year old Jesus in the Temple during a Passover visit (Luke 2:41-52).  On the long walk home, Jesus deserts the crowd headed for Nazareth and stays in the Temple area to question the priests.  But like many absent-minded 12-year-olds, He fails to notify His parents.  When a distraught Mary tracks Hiim down, she gently reprimands Him for this inconsiderateness and Jesus replies, "Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"  Luke appreciates Mom's anguish and concludes the story by observing, "And Jesus increased in wisdom. . .and in divine and human favor (2:52)."  How can Jesus increase in wisdom and divine favor unless there was a prior phase in which He was less wise and less in divine favor?  Hebrews 5:8 insists, "Though He as the Son, He learned obedience from the things He suffered."  Why would the author say this unless there was a period in which Jesus was disobedient or at least nonobedient?  

Why would Jesus feel the need for John's baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4) unless He felt the need to repent?  Why does Jesus give this reply to the rich young ruler, "Why do you call me good?  No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:17)."  The context shows that Jesus is not fishing for the ruler's affirmation of His divinity.  Rather, He is distinguishing Himself from God and implying that no one, not even Himself is truly "good"!  Of course, what He means is that He is not God the Father.

No, I am not denying the doctrine of the sinlessness of Christ.  The maturation of a child must not be equated with sin.  All of us, including Jesus, have to learn by trial and error.  Sin (Greek: "hamartia') is a condition that separates us from God.  As long as Jesus remained one with the Father, He could make mistakes without being in a condition of sin. Thus, the same Hebrews that implies this disobedent phase also portrays Jesus as "one who was tested in every respect just as we are, yet without sin (4:15)."  
The bottom line is this:  Jesus could not serve as our example if He did not share our limitations.  Thus, Hebrews characterizes Jesus' minstry as a whole, not just Gethsemane, this way: "In the days of His flesh He offered up prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His godly reverence (5:7)."  The "loud cries and tears" imply insecurity and uncertainty in the same way that Jesus' plea for deliverance from His fate: 'Abba Father,. . .remove this cup from me! (Mark 14:36)."  We often forget that plea and prefer His ultimte compliance, "Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done."  We also tend to ignore the profound doubt implied by Jesus' anguished cry from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me (Mark 15:34--citing a psalm).  The earthly Jesus was hardly omniscient.  For example, He admits ignorance as to exactly when He will come back again after His death (Mark 13:32).  These examples could be multiplied.  

So how can Jesus' limitations be reconciled with His divinity?  The New Testament answer can be found in one of the earliest Christian hymns, a hymn that Paul quotes in Philippians 2:6-11.  The hymn begins, "who, though He was in the form of God (Greek: "morphe"). . ."  "Morphe" means "same essential substance."  So literally the hymn begins, "who, though He was of the same essential substance as God, He did not regard equality with God a thing to cling to."   In other words, He was willing to give up His divine nature or (perhaps better) His divine prerogatives to become human.  The hymn proceeds, "but He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant."  Emptied Hiself of what?   Obviously of His divine nature or prerogatives.  

So the earthly Jesus was exactly what God would be if God were merely human and not divine.  So what does this do to the divinity of Christ?  The Philippian hymn concludes, "Therefore, God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name that is above every other name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. . .and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."  The name above all names is "Lord", the name of divinity.  Jesus was restored to His divinity and oneness with God by His resurrection just as He preexisted as God.  With this difference: Prior to His birth, the Second Person of the Trinity was not human, but rather "The Word [Greek "Logos"] of God (John 1:1, 14)"  Here "Logos" means "the rational self-expression of God" as opposed to God in His unknowability.  The Bible always qualifies its anthropomorphic descriptions of God with the caveat that ultimately the reality of God transcends all personal categories.  But the anthopomorphic imagery serves as a tool that allows us to experience an intimate bonding with God.

[BirdManKalki]

"Is there any reason to doubt that Jesus did the healing? The Bible teaches that faith opens the way for God to do the miraculous. Peoples' faith opened the way for Jesus' healing, but they didn't heal themselves. See also Mark 6:2-5".

I agree that the bible teaches amongst many other things, that faith opens the way for god to do the miraculous. And I agree with your statement that people's faith opened the way for Jesus' healing. However I don't agree with the statement that they didn't heal themselves and with your statement there being any reason to doubt that Jesus did the healing.  

Now if you say that Jesus did the healing do you mean Jesus did the healing himself or that he worked from using the energies around him? Do you think he would look upon this healing as he himself doing the healing or do you think he would recognise understand the connection of all forms, manifested and unmanifested? It's my humble opinion that he would understand and be able to explain this connection and this being so I think he would look upon those he healed as apart of the whole and healer and healed being a part of the whole would therefore learn from each other heal themselves.  

"Mark 6: -6
6Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples.2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. "Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's the wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! 3 isn't this the carpenter isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us? And they took offence at him.4Jesus said to them, "Only in his home town, among his relatives and his own house is a prophet without honour"5He could not do any miracles their, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith."

Here we have it written the Jesus couldn't do any miracles in his hometown. It is also written that he was amazed by their lack of faith. I would say that these statements show that Jesus knew of the connection of the whole and that he was aware that their lack of faith was causing problems in the ability to heal.  

"Mark 2:5-11, '5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic, 11 I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

I think that what he is telling the scribes that it makes no difference what he says to heal the paralytic because the paralytic is their to be healed so that the scribes watching record and testify that the son of man has the authority to forgive sins plain an simple.

[Berserk]

Birdman issued the challenge, "You find me a single passage in the Bible where Jesus claims to have healed someone."  He raises an interesting issue.  The Gospel narrators routinely report that Jesus healed people;  yet only once does Jesus make this claim Himself.   Jesus reassures the Roman centurion, "I will go and heal him (the centurion's sick and paralyzed servant--Matthew 8:7)."  But Mark 6:5 ("He could do no miracle there. . .") contradicts Alpha and Omega's objection, "As for [Jesus] not being able to heal, I don't think that was the case."  The Greek "dynamai" used in 6:5 means "was incapable of."   A skeptical atmosphere can prevent manifestions of God's power.  To incarnate Jesus "emptied Himself" (Philippians 2:7) of His divine prerogatives, and so, could perform no miracles prior to His reception of the Holy Spirit at His baptism.    Then Jesus heals not by His own power, but by God's power.    
Depending on the spiritual atmosphere, God's power may or may not be present to heal.   Thus, Luke sets the stage for the healing of the paralytic by observing, "And the power of the Lord (God, not Jesus) was present for Him to heal the sick (Luke 5:17)."  

Yet in a sense Birdman is correct.   The epileptic's father challenges Jesus to prove His healing capabilities and Jesus reverses the challenge by insisting that the issue is what the Father's faith can do, not what Jesus can do:  [The father:] `But if You are able to do anything, have pity on us and help us.'  Jesus said to him, `If YOU ARE ABLE!--All things can be done for the one who believes (Mark 9:32-33).'"   It is this perspective that often prompts Jesus to assure those He heals, "Your faith has healed you."  Jesus praises faith whereever He finds it and laments its absence, especially in His disciples.  He clearly implies that we need to make a decisive contribution to healing faith to allow God to meet us half way and heal us.    We need to improve our understanding of how to create this magical state of consciousness.   A & O and Birdman, thank you for confronting these issues.

Best wishes,
Berserk

[Berserk]

I typed too quicky and so need to emend my last post on too points.

(1) I meant to say, "In Mary 6:5 "ouk dynamai" means that Jesus was "incapable of" performing miracles in Nazareth.  I forgot the negation "ouk" (= "not").

(2) re. my point that only once does Jesus claim that He Himself performed a healing.  Jesus does twice quote Isaiah 6:9-10 and apply it to Himself.  In other words, he twice claims to be capable of performing spiritual healing (Matthew 13:15; John 12:40).  I my prior post I was referring to physical healing.

You guys have inspired me to create a post on Jesus' healing principles.  I I plan to start a thread on this in the Healing section of this site.

[Islamis4u]

I just want to add that believing in God does not necessitate that you believe that Jesus is God, or that the Bible preaches that Jesus is God. The religion of Islam teaches that Jesus was noble a Messenger who preached to worship one God:

"[Jesus said]: "And verily God is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path." [Surah  Maryam verse 30]

The Qur'an describes itself as a confirmation of the scriptures that came before it:

"It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel." [The Qur'an 3:2]

We believe in all the Messengers from Moses, to Abraham, to Jesus, and of course the final Messenger Muhammad.(peace be upon them all):

Say (O Muhammad ): "We believe in God and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve sons of Jacob and what was given to Moses, Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (God) we have submitted (in Islam)." [The Qur'an 3:84]

The Qur'an says:

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of God aught but the truth. The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, was (no more than) a Messenger of God and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in God and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For God is (the only) One God, Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is All­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. " [The Qur'an 4:171]

"Say: O People of the Scripture(Jews and Christians)! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him)." [3:64]

"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto God, for him God hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Will they not rather turn unto Godand seek forgiveness of Him ? For God is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!" [5:72-75]

The Qur'an contains numerous verses about the birth of Jesus, his miracles, his message, the crucifixion etc.

[zareste]

The records of Jesus' youth (Book of the Infancy of Jesus Christ) said he killed people and brought others back to life willingly.  I dunno where the Holy Spirit thing came from as it doesn't appear to have any basis.  I'm guessing the scribes from the Church shoehorned that in to fit more 'updated' ideas, and removed his childhood because religious kids are supposed to set and obey authority and never speak against the tyrants trying to control them.

Omnipotence is a logical impossibility since it lacks context (up comes the old 'can God make a rock too heavy for him to lift and lift it?' bit) so that goes out the window.  Thing is that, when some people are amazed out of their minds at an occurrence, and they can't explain it, they like to think this means *nobody* can explain it, so we end up with all sorts of baseless beliefs and eventual fear of people with a sense of logic who can throw these beliefs out like yesterday's garbage.

I guess this is natural though, as most people saying "I'm logical and smart!" are idiots with even less comprehension who just want to believe 'The whole thing was a great big fake and never happened and nobody has any proof against my ideas because I said so.' and whatnot.

[exothen]

zareste,

The records of Jesus' youth (Book of the Infancy of Jesus Christ) said he killed people and brought others back to life willingly.

I have never heard of that "book." Just when was this book written?

Omnipotence is a logical impossibility since it lacks context (up comes the old 'can God make a rock too heavy for him to lift and lift it?' bit) so that goes out the window.

lol! The "can God make a rock" argument proves only that the person using it is unreasonable since the argument itself is illogical.