Many Eastern relegion believed in life after death ( reincrnation).
There is a verty nice book by a spiritual master on the subject titled
Life beyond Phyiscal death which can be downloaded from:
http://www.awgp.org/gamma/LiteratureEnglish
this book is good in very good in concept.
Recently , there are a lot of reseacher taking interest in the subject after a reputed US doctor Dr. Brain Weiss ( www.brainweiss.com)
wrote some best sellers ( many lifes many masters and a few more).
I would be intersted in more references on the subject.
Thank you...
Quote from: runlolathere is a book called "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton
http://www.near-death.com/newton.html
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684851938/sr=8-2/qid=1145634076/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-0565088-8135325?%5Fencoding=UTF8
this is a great book, a 17 year study and some really good information as well as personal accounts.
Have you read this book? Is it easy to read?
Quote from: patelvipulkMany Eastern relegion believed in life after death ( reincrnation)subject.
I have been thinking a lot more about this topic since my Mother's death/transition and in light of all of my own metaphysical experiences.
I don't think we should just limit ideas of "life after death" to just include "reincarnation" here on this planet.
Sometimes I think that what we perceive as reincarnation "here" -- in the context of familiarity, bring drawn to a certain period of time, or even what seems to be actual "memories" -- may also have something to do with "cell memory" handed down to us from our ancestors as well.
While I certainly don't want to limit the soul's ability to take multiple trips to this planet, I also think that this just may be one of many options, and our natural tendency to limit our options to "this planet" is primarily reflective of our need for things to "be like" those things that we are already familiar with. That's a pretty "human" thing to do!
In short I guess, expanding the options of "existence" is something that I am wanting to do within myself...so, this is just something more to consider!
Anyway, if any of this makes sense to anyone else that would be great!! :wink:
~Beth
p.s. Other ideas that I am considering: When we travel in our sleep/trace states, we know we are not on the same "linear time clock" as we are on this planet (if "time" can even be understood in a different way) and so being unlimited by "time" we are able to move our awareness back and forth across the earth's historical time zone and actually "visit" other eras. Also, within the potential of parallel worlds theory, there are "other earth's" that are similar to this one, but yet different in very striking ways. We could also "visit" these as well and come back with the impression of wanting to seriously consider reincarnation as a reason for the "memories" or "resonance" of other time periods.
Gosh! There are so many possibilities!!! :grin:
QuoteHave you read this book? Is it easy to read?
Yes, to both of your questions. I've also read the book Runlola suggested, which is a good book to read as well. I only recommend books that I've read personally, unless I mention otherwise.
This book is interesting because it mentions many different stories and varied accounts from the people involved. It is written by a self proclaimed skeptic journalist who is invited by the Dr. who, by the way is a Scientist who initially set out to DISprove reincarnation. What he found was astounding, he and the journalist take an awesome journey.
Beth, I understand your post and entertain some of your thoughts as well. I don't think that any of this can be put into one neat little category. Too many variables and too many questions to not consider other options. Great post!
I had a typo in the posting:
The website for Dr. Brian Weiss is
http://www.brianweiss.com/
The book" Life Beyond Physical Death ( by a spiritual master from India, founder of www.awgp.org, www.akhand-jyoti.org and www.dsvv.org) can read /downloaded at:
http://www.awgp.org/english/books/life_death.pdf
Thank you for the link, I will definitely check it out. I have read a few of Brian Weiss' books as well. Lots of good information there also!
Thanks again!
As a student of Anthropology and Sociology, I have to say that any kind of fundamental belief in an afterlife is pretty much inconceivable to me right at this moment. An afterlife has to constitute a beginning of life, doesn't it? In this sense it's just as ( perhaps even more ) important for me to attempt to discern where we came from, rather than where we are headed.
Michael Cremo's Human Devolution is one of the best attempts at answering this question I've yet to see. It's certainly not without it's short -comings, though.
Only if you don't believe in eternity. If there is indeed eternity, then an afterlife isn't really an afterlife, but the continuation of a life that is already there, and incarnation would be just a facet of the multidimensionality of the condition of being.
PS. I studied Anthropology, Art History and Comparative Religion, (and later Electronics- a bit schizoid of me :grin: ) and I still believe in the eternity of life. (I also don't believe in the afterlife as posited by fundamental religions, because they give life a beginning but no end and that just doesn't jibe with my notions of symmetry.)
But, as someone else has said, who am I to say?
Quote from: DochAs a student of Anthropology and Sociology, I have to say that any kind of fundamental belief in an afterlife is pretty much inconceivable to me right at this moment. An afterlife has to constitute a beginning of life, doesn't it? In this sense it's just as ( perhaps even more ) important for me to attempt to discern where we came from, rather than where we are headed....
Doch,
Why do you think they are mutually exclusive?
What if they are the same?
What if in your search for the "from" you also find the "to"??? Or--
What if it is actually easier the other way around?
Why not be open to the "to" and see what you find?
As a student of Anthropology and Sociology, I am surprised that you aren't more open to such a thing: all cultures that I am aware of have some sort of spiritual heirarchy, system or some kind of 'other-worldly' belief. Various Shamanistic traditions from around the world are all about astral travel, spirit contact and the power of dead ancestors to affect this world for many years following their death.
Why would so many cultures, for so many millenia, from virtually every spot on this planet, believe in such a thing, if the possibility of life after death was not worthy of serious consideration?
Scientific observation and objective data collection are all very necessary, but when "people" who are studying "people" become too "objective" they totally lose the "subjective" connection with their topic of study. Which is, in essence, their "self."
~Beth
p.s. Have you studied Arnold van Genepp and Victor Turner yet? The theory of
liminality is totally fascinating and can be applied to both our experiences here on earth as well being useful in comprehending our experiences in the astral... :wink:
I do think than a continuation of life is worthy of consideration ( especially after experiencing AP, and reading accounts of the NDE), it's just I find the concept of an afterlife to be collectively in-congruent with our notions of personal identity. To me, our understandings of personal identity, as we currently understand them, are grounded in a physicality; where the best evidence suggests that personal identity ( not necessarily spirit or consciousness) is centered in the brain. Otherwise, what becomes of a baby who is totally unconscious of his/her self ? What about mentally handicapped people, people suffering brain damage, or Alzheimer's disease?
What I am trying to say is that to me, an afterlife implies the kind of life that our physically based consciousness permits. From an Anthropological and Sociological perspective, it's easy to see how the concept is represented in so much cultural diversity throughout the span of human history. If we are centering everything around a certain continuation of our identity ( and that's what all these religions, cultures, shamans are essentially doing), then shouldn't we all pull out a gun right at this moment in order to let the continuation occur whilst we have relative conscious lucidity? I, for one, am not to keen on that idea. :smile:
Oh, and I have studied a little bit on the work of Turner but I've yet to come across that term. I'll have to check it out. :grin:
Please let me now if you know any good books on the subject.
Arnold van Gannep:
Rites of Passage
Publisher: University Of Chicago Press (July 15, 1961)
Language: English
ISBN: 0226848493
Victor Turner:
The Ritual Process
Publisher: Aldine Transaction; Reprint edition (December 31, 1995)
Language: English
ISBN: 0202011909
I just looked it up and both of these books can be purchased on Amazon.com There are also other books on this same topic, written by subsequent scholars that apply this theory to other aspects of our lives, such as the theater experinence, e.g., plays and movies (probably both the participation in and the viewing of movies and plays.)
A good example of liminality is found in the mythical stories of the "Hero's Journey." From the moment that the "to be hero" begins his/her quest they have "stepped into liminal space." Betwixt and between their normal reality and a future reality that will reflect a drastic and undeniable change in their lives, they will encounter all kinds of strange and unusual things in order to be able "to accomplish their mission." Examples of such hero journey's are still found in modern stories and movies all the time. Some classic examples are the Wizard of Oz and Luke Skywalker in the first made of the Star Wars movies.
I like the Wizard of Oz example because Dorothy actually 'leaves Kansas' and 'goes into another realm of existence' for a time. If you have seen the old movie, the producers actually highlight this liminal space where the beginning and end of the movie were filmed in black-and-white with the 'adventure' in the middle being filmed in color, and her return to Kansas was in black-and-white again! The color parts highlight the liminal space that Dorothy was in while on her heroine journey. :grin:
~Beth
p.s. I like to think of this liminal space as being an apt description of what it is like for us to travel in the astral... :wink:
I found a fairly helpful link.
It's mainly concerned with ghosts though.
http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/GhostsAndLiminality.html
life after death is....
MIDDLE EARTH :P
blessings,
Ryu
:yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2:
Plese bare with my ignorance. What doesMIDDLE EARTH :P means?
MIDDLE EARTH :P
blessings,
Ryu
:yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2: :yikes2:[/quote]
patelvipuvik: Have you ever heard of The Lord of the Rings? By Tolkien? If you haven't- it's a cool read, for those who like fantasy fiction.
ficticious fantasy, when your dead your dead
In the Easter belief system, ther is a concept of Physical, subtle and astal bodies and they beilive that the later two bodies goes to the physical body of hte next life in the form of seeds. And that is why a child is born with a specific state of mind with differrnt habbits and fears.
I have heard that most western relegions beleive in soul waiting for hte judgement day and not taking up another body and that everyone is born a sinner. Please pardon my ignorance as I have not studied Wastern relegions. but I have a question? , Are everyone born with the same level of sins? ( please do not get offended, I just want to know out of curiopcity rahter than trying to disapprove someones relegious beleif. I apologize in advance if I am offending anyone).
Quote from: DochI do think than a continuation of life is worthy of consideration ( especially after experiencing AP, and reading accounts of the NDE), it's just I find the concept of an afterlife to be collectively in-congruent with our notions of personal identity. To me, our understandings of personal identity, as we currently understand them, are grounded in a physicality; where the best evidence suggests that personal identity ( not necessarily spirit or consciousness) is centered in the brain. Otherwise, what becomes of a baby who is totally unconscious of his/her self ? What about mentally handicapped people, people suffering brain damage, or Alzheimer's disease?
What I am trying to say is that to me, an afterlife implies the kind of life that our physically based consciousness permits. From an Anthropological and Sociological perspective, it's easy to see how the concept is represented in so much cultural diversity throughout the span of human history. If we are centering everything around a certain continuation of our identity ( and that's what all these religions, cultures, shamans are essentially doing), then shouldn't we all pull out a gun right at this moment in order to let the continuation occur whilst we have relative conscious lucidity? I, for one, am not to keen on that idea. :smile:
Quote from: ubiquitousficticious fantasy, when your dead your dead
tom-aye-to, tom-ah-to... when you're dead, your body may be dead in this system of probabilities, but...
patelpuvik wrote:
QuoteIn the Easter belief system, ther is a concept of Physical, subtle and astal bodies and they beilive that the later two bodies goes to the physical body of hte next life in the form of seeds. And that is why a child is born with a specific state of mind with differrnt habbits and fears.
I have read a little tiny bit about this and would love it if you could expand on this.
QuoteI have heard that most western relegions beleive in soul waiting for hte judgement day and not taking up another body and that everyone is born a sinner. Please pardon my ignorance as I have not studied Wastern relegions. but I have a question? , Are everyone born with the same level of sins? ( please do not get offended, I just want to know out of curiopcity rahter than trying to disapprove someones relegious beleif. I apologize in advance if I am offending anyone).
When christianity started, it was a time when there was a sense of despair, and the prevailing belief was that the end of the world was at hand (eschatology). When after a bit of time this didn't happen, the kingdom of God became 'where you go to after you're dead'. So 'judgement day' was part of original christianity, and continues to be important, but not as a present phenomenon, more as a future phenomenon.
One branch of christianity, namely catholicism (but I'm sure other denominations also) adopted the belief that humans inherited the 'sins' of 'Adam and Eve', influenced by the myth of the Garden of Eden. This branch took the teachings of a man called Augustine, who taught that humans were born with the built-in defect of 'original sin', and had to be baptized to be allowed into heaven. Even though the last Pope repealed this idea, some Catholics still believe it.
I of course, will set aside my own beliefs about this (a previous post will tell you what I believe), since I am attempting to illustrate the ideas that you're asking about.
but...... is that all u can do....... some traveller
Quote from: ubiquitousbut...... is that all u can do....... some traveller
:dont-know: No comprendo.
To extrapolate all my thoughts and belief's on a concept of the continuation of my mind after everyone around me has witnessed my death is tricky, the probability to me is that reincarnation is a coping mechanism a comfort notion.
It just gives us more to live but in case we meet our maker "oh i did believe i would carry on i did god i was only joking on the astral pulse don't reincarnate me as a frog for CFT to stamp on me" hehe
This is another diffence between easter and Western relegions .
In most Eastern relegions, creator and cration are non-seperate..
I am more familiar with Hindu beleifs in which it is belived that everyone is born wit hcertain level of ignorance. ( based on Karmas of past lives).
Acording to law of Karma, The concept of GOD is all pravaiding, infinite, omnipresennt, omnipotent. And to meet infinite, one must make infinte efforts and that is not possible. However, everyone has limited ignorance whihc can be removed by finite efforts and after all ignorance about self ( Complete surrender of EGO or "I am the doer" ness to GOD) is removed, whatever is experinced is GOD.
I am not tr ying to say that hsi is the only right thinking and teachings off all
othere relegions is wrong.. To me this is just a concept and I wil like to know more about concepts/ beleifs of other relegions..
Vipul..
Quote from: ubiquitousTo extrapolate all my thoughts and belief's on a concept of the continuation of my mind after everyone around me has witnessed my death is tricky, the probability to me is that reincarnation is a coping mechanism a comfort notion.
It just gives us more to live but in case we meet our maker "oh i did believe i would carry on i did god i was only joking on the astral pulse don't reincarnate me as a frog for CFT to stamp on me" hehe
Ouch! I like froggies! Now, come back as a cockroach and
now we're talking. :ughh:
Quote from: patelvipulkThis is another diffence between easter and Western relegions .
In most Eastern relegions, creator and cration are non-seperate..
I am more familiar with Hindu beleifs in which it is belived that everyone is born wit hcertain level of ignorance. ( based on Karmas of past lives).
Acording to law of Karma, The concept of GOD is all pravaiding, infinite, omnipresennt, omnipotent. And to meet infinite, one must make infinte efforts and that is not possible. However, everyone has limited ignorance whihc can be removed by finite efforts and after all ignorance about self ( Complete surrender of EGO or "I am the doer" ness to GOD) is removed, whatever is experinced is GOD.
I am not tr ying to say that hsi is the only right thinking and teachings off all
othere relegions is wrong.. To me this is just a concept and I wil like to know more about concepts/ beleifs of other relegions..
Vipul..
It may interest you to know that some western religious denominations don't separate God from creation. In metaphysical christianity (aka Practical christianity, or Unity) we believe that the Christ spirit is in everyone, that it is the 'spark' of God that is in every one, and that that is precisely what Jesus came to teach. There are other christian denominations that share this belief, but I'm more familiar with my own religion. :wink:
patelvipulk,
You have posted several things that I would like to address:
QuoteAre everyone born with the same level of sins?
QuoteI am more familiar with Hindu beleifs in which everyone is born wit hcertain level of ignorance. ( based on Karmas of past lives) ... that everyone has limited ignorance whihc can be removed by finite efforts and after all ignorance about self ( Complete surrender of EGO or "I am the doer" ness to GOD) is removed, whatever is experinced is GOD.
QuoteIn most Eastern relegions, creator and cration are non-seperate..
I am not a Christian, but I have been studying Christianity for years, and I would say that to the best of my knowledge, they do not put that much thought into their current doctrines. Since you do not know much about Christianity, the best way to answer your questions is to "recap" the whole. Here goes --
The Christian Story 101: as Beth understands it :grin:Originally, Adam and Eve (the very first humans) lived in a perfect paradise. Everything they needed was provided for them by God. This was very good! In this paradise, they could do and eat anything they wanted -- except
one thing: they were not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. With the exception of that one prohibition, all of paradise was theirs to totally enjoy.
One day a snake came along and told them that there was even more to be had -- that they could actually be like God himself!!! This was VERY tempting!!! Even though this required her to eat of the ONE TREE that God had forbidden them to eat from, Eve decided to do it anyway. This was a very bad thing for her to do, because she did not become like God at all! All she did was disobey God. By listening to the snake, Eve (woman) originally brought sin into the world, but Adam (man) willingly followed along with sharing in her sin. Because of their sin (original sin), God was very unhappy with them. Their punishments included being banned from paradise, being made to have babies and to have to feed themselves without God providing them with all of their food.
From that moment on, all humans (who were born of sinful people) were automatically born with sinful natures. They had to work for their survival and the more the world populated with new humans, the more sin was unleashed into the world.
God eventually decided he didn't like it that his creation was so full of sin, so he totally destroyed the world by water at one time, giving all future issue of humanity to one faithful man named Noah. Ultimately, that plan didn't work out! Sin just appeared once again through the sons of Noah's sons.
God then tried a more pragmatic approach: He tried to get humanity to overcome sin in other ways, e.g. through divinely appointed judges, kings and prophets. Of course, humanity really liked their sinfulness and so the judges were not that effective, the kings liked their sin too much as well, and the prophets, well...no one wanted to listen to them. So, God needed a new plan.
This new plan was to divide himself into three parts, one part remained as God, one part remained as spirit, and the other part was born into the flesh of humanity. The latter of these parts was Jesus.
In a quick recap, until God was born as Jesus, the world was in the clutches of a sinfulness that they could not seem to overcome by themselves, so God appeared to them as his own only begotten son.
As a human, God/Jesus was able to walk and talk with humans in the hopes that they would listen to reason from his very own mouth. He taught them what sin was all about, and how they shouldn't be living in sin because when they died, they would die for all time. If they would just listen to him, and turn away from sin, they would live forever. Some listened to him at the time, but many more did not.
God/Jesus also tried performing miracles to show them his power, and a lot more of the people joined him because of this, but still, many more had a lot of doubt. Especially the religious authorities of the day.
So, God/Jesus decided that the only way that humanity would recognize him as himself (the One True God) he would have to shed his human flesh and appear to them in his spiritual form. To do this, he had to die. Since he could not take his own life (that was a sin) he made one of his disciples betray him to the authorities so
they would put him to death.
With this death, not only would they be able to see him in his spiritual form, but when he died he decided he would remove all sin from those that had believed in him.
So, his disciple (Judas) did indeed betray him, the authorities (the Jewish priests) did indeed have him killed, and he (God/Jesus) did indeed "rise again" three days later, appearing to his disciples in his spiritual form before returning to heaven. Before he returned to heaven, he decided not to abandon his believers, so he left the third part of himself with them, the Holy Spirit. This latter part would take over where Jesus had left off.
From that point on, sin still lived in the world -- but people that choose to believe that all of these events actually happened "are saved" from their sinfulness
for all time. They may still sin -- but they are immediately forgiven. As an added bonus, these same people will live with him in heaven throughout eternity after the world comes to an end and all people either pass/fail the final judgment.
This is basically what most Christians today believe (except CFT's Christianity.) It took hundreds of years, however, for all of this stuff to be worked out through Church teachings.
Now, to address your questions directly: Interestingly enough, one of the earliest Christian Church scholars (my personal favorite), Origen of Alexandria (185-254 c.e.), who was instrumental in getting the young Christian religion off the ground, held some notions that
DID NOT make it into mainstream Catholic Tradition. You will probably find them quite interesting as well!!!
One of these things was that "ignorance" was the "greatest of all sins." While everyone was born into sin (ignorance), it was up to each individual person to abolish their sinfulness through "knowledge." It was through education and learning to "Know Thyself" that they could turn their lives around and abolish evil from their lives.
In the process of obtaining knowledge about themselves, everyone had the potential to "apprehend God" and were bestowed with a "chrism/anointing" from God through the Holy Spirit. This made it possible for anyone to become a "Christ -- an anointed one -- a Messiah,"
IF they were willing to undergo the intense studies and the processes that were necessary! Part of this process was to "totally surrender your personal will" over to "the will of God."
With what you have written about Eastern beliefs, it sounds very similar!!! It is also interesting to note that Origen also believed in reincarnation (as did most all early Christians) as well as Jesus being the "Logos" which allowed God to be an active participant everywhere in the universe. In other words, with God/Jesus as the Logos, the creator and his creation were no longer separate!!! :smile:
Of course, the bad news is that our wonderfully enlightened Origen of Alexandria was ultimately branded a heretic, excommunicated from the Church (post-mortem) and all of his teachings were banned from the Catholic Church's Doctrines!!! Especially his teachings on reincarnation and his teachings that everyone could become "A Christ"!!!:shock:
So, maybe original Christianity was much more like Eastern religion and over time the Catholic Church decided that they didn't much like the eastern ideas. The Church was all powerful back then, so they could do pretty much whatever they wanted. And they did!!
I know for a fact, that in many other ways, Catholic Christianity and original Christianity are not very much alike at all! I guess I can add this eastern influence to that list!!:razz:
Thanks patelvipulk!!!
~Beth
Thank you for such a detailed explanation!
Christianity is from the east, or is it not?
Beth wrote:
Quoteone of the earliest Christian Church scholars (my personal favorite), Origen of Alexandria (185-254 c.e.),
I like him too.
Ubiquitous wrote:
QuoteChristianity is from the east, or is it not?
Give the boy a cookie! :grin:
I have also came acroos some text on internet rearding " lost years of Christ" in which one russian reseacher claim ot have found documents saying htat he visted Tibet between the years of 16 and 32.
Can yo ushed more light on this belief..
Quote from: patelvipulkI have also came acroos some text on internet rearding " lost years of Christ" in which one russian reseacher claim ot have found documents saying htat he visted Tibet between the years of 16 and 32.
Can yo ushed more light on this belief..
Well patelvipulk, I cannot shed any light on this at all, except to say that because the New Testament does not have any activity for Jesus between his youth and his being in his 30's, many people have tried to put him "somewhere" during that time.
I really have nothing else to add to this because I maintain that Jesus was a fictional creation and that the whole story of his life was a myth. A very good myth that talked about the need for spiritual thinking and spiritual living in a world that was rife with political turmoil--but myth nonetheless.
Jesus, and all the other biblical characters were personifications of ideas. I have compiled a great deal of research that shows how the lexical meanings of their names were used as the nouns and verbs to write their stories, e.g. Jesus actually means "to save" and "salvation"; that is why he is characterized as the "savior" of the world.
This research goes A LONG WAY in explaining why there is absolutely no evidence outside of the bible that any of the biblical events ever occurred, or that any of the people ever existed; there is no such evidence. We have quite a bit of historical accounting for that time period, and yet there is no evidence of anything biblical.
So, any historical claims to Jesus having done this or that, or having been here or there, is just pure conjecture based upon religious belief. Granted, some of these people are trying to expand the Jesus story to include many other things and areas, BUT, this is still an irrational literal belief in a mythological creation.
~Beth
Doing more research, I came across the following websites.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm
http://smithbrad.nventure.com/unknownJC.htm
growing up in inida, I am more curious now on hte subject as there is a reference to India here..
can anyone comment on validity of this websites?
Also please refeer me to a website which describes teachings and beliefs as understood and practiced by many branches of Chiritianity.. ( in a summary form is better).
I want to let everyone know that I am writing this as I am curious learning about differnt relegions with open mind and I am not writing this here to hurt anyone's relegious beliefs.. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
Vipul..
Well, I can't speak for the historicity of anything I say following, since I'll mainly use the Bible for at least one of the questions.
According to the Bible when Jesus was born his family quickly fled to Egypt to get away from the slaughter of the baby boys thanks to Herod Junior. In history (especially Josephus) Herod Junior was a hated and horrible ruler who even had his own son killed out of paranoia- so whether this is historically accurate I don't know, but if going to Egypt is the thing that 'was done' back then, then it makes sense that this could be true. How he goes from Egypt to India IDK.
It is historically accepted however (even by some sections of the catholic church, believe it or not) that Thomas the Twin (possibly the author of the now well known Gospel of Thomas) went to India and started a branch of Christianity there, and it has been historically verified to be true, and references to this have been double-checked and triple checked.
So it would seem to me that if Thomas did go to India right after the crucifixion (or soon after, anyway) the accounts of Jesus in India could be attributable to Thomas, who according to the Gnostic gospels was Jesus' favorite (or maybe it was Magdalen, depends on who you read.) So nothing really would surprise me, because if you look at the message and compare it to Buddhism, it's pretty similar.
Personally, and based on direct experiencing, there is no death after life.
For those who want a graspable defnition, before you were in a form, then you were born into another form and once that form comes to an end you''ll assume yet another form.
You are eternal, your expression changes.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Hmm you really want to know what life after death looks like?
Well did you ever fall asleep and couldn't remember your dream, or didn't dream? Well life after death is that period where there is nothing.... if you hadn't woken up the next day you would have never noticed. :wink: So you see death isn't that bad, there is just nothing, but since your not even aware of that... well... go to sleep again tonight and find out haha... waking up the next morning you will have experienced "death" again.
I tried to control myself but couldn't-
Monroe, in one of his works (which I can't remember) described 'belief system territories', where people went to specific regions, as to what they expected (hell, heaven, etc.) and stayed there until they figured out they were creating their own reality from expectation and were able to move on. He tells a story of going to a very dark place, and seeing a man there, and he was saying something along the lines of "see, mom and dad? I told you that there is nothing where you die". He was in a void of his own creation, because he believed in 'nothingness'- so that's what he got. At some point he was mad, he felt somehow gypped, because there was no afterlife. Monroe tried to get his attention, but he was too busy feeling sorry for himself.
I don't know if this is true, but just in case, I'm going to make sure to believe in heaven (a fun heaven, with lots of joy in it), so if it's true, at least I'll be having some fun before I get 'aware' of what's supposed to happen. :wink:
I've read a number of diverse sources that seem to agree that we create our afterlife by what we believe and expect to happen. Some of the people Raymond Moody interviewed about their near death experiences reported some similarities (like seeing the tunnel and the bright light) but also some big differences (some Christians were greeted by Jesus, some Muslims were greeted by Allah, some Hindu's were greeted by Krishna or another form of the Hindi deity). That sounds like a self-created heaven to me.
I'm with you CF.....I think I'll start creating a little more spectacular heaven than what I first expected, but one thing ticks me off.....to think that Islamic terrorists might be enjoying themselves in their self-created "virgin filled" heaven as a reward for their brutality...... DH
I have never heard of Islamic terrorists thinking they'll go to heaven with lots of virgins outside of sensationalist news reports.
I don't know a lot about the Koran (have read parts of it) but it is my understanding that it is expressly forbidden to kill anyone who is innocent (children being of that category.) So if any terrorist has been indoctrinated to ignore that piece of scripture will have a subconscious knowledge of how badly they've messed that up that it will probably plunge them in a version of their self-created hell. (Just my opinion).
Quote from: Doringo on January 27, 2007, 15:48:41
I have never heard of Islamic terrorists thinking they'll go to heaven with lots of virgins outside of sensationalist news reports.
I know some Muslims who claim to believe it. Maybe they've just been influenced by sensationalist news reports.
Quote from: CFTraveler on January 27, 2007, 16:07:20
I don't know a lot about the Koran (have read parts of it) but it is my understanding that it is expressly forbidden to kill anyone who is innocent (children being of that category.) So if any terrorist has been indoctrinated to ignore that piece of scripture will have a subconscious knowledge of how badly they've messed that up that it will probably plunge them in a version of their self-created hell. (Just my opinion).
Works for me.
Actually.. The real version of a true "jihad" Is actually one who dies for God. What I mean is, Islam puts restrictions on fighting, you cannot CANNOT CANNOT MURDER anything innocent. If a giant army of Americans were going to invade Muslims then we are permitted to fight back with restrictions and those who fight too defend themselves in a just and moral way will enter paradise.
Thanks. I think it's important to note that there is a difference in what jihad really means and what the media and even some radical Muslim groups portray it as. A lot of Westerners are confused by that.
The root meaning of Jihad means to struggle for the way of God almighty. If I struggle in school for example and know that some day I want to be a doctor and help people for God this is known as my own personal jihad. Muhammed peace and blessings be upon him once said the greatest jihad is one against the soul, every human being encounters a defying moment to battle with his own consciousness. Before man changes the world he must change himself. Getting ontopic :P Heres some exerts of what Muslims believe is going to occur on the last day.
Death:
First of all, let me point out that the afterlife is not a philosophical matter in Islam. It is a reality that every prophet sent to mankind, peace be upon them all, has warned his people about. There are numerous references to the Hereafter in the Qur'an and the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Many descriptions and warnings about the Day of Judgment can be found in both sources and we, as Muslims, take them to be fact, not conjecture or philosophy.
A belief in life after death in Islam is a pillar of faith. It is a main rationale for the religion of Islam itself. In saying this, I mean that there is not much point for Allah to give us the beautiful gift of Islam as a way of life, if there is no continuation of life in the Hereafter.
If there were no belief in the Hereafter, people would feel free to do as they please, at least to the limits that other people would set for them and enforce. They would only have their personal desires as a guide for behavior and belief. They would not feel accountable for the deeds that are hidden from the knowledge of society. A belief in the Hereafter helps us to keep in mind that there is a God, Allah, and He has prepared a great reward for those who do good and a severe punishment for those who only follow their selfish desires.
Death is actually just a transitional point, where we leave this worldly life and enter into a different, everlasting life. For some - I ask Allah that we would all be in this category inshaAllah - the next life is a pleasant existence, which is much better than we could even ever imagine it could be. For others - I ask Allah that none of us would end up in this category - the next life is a terrible existence, which is unimaginable in its torments.
The Day of Judgment is a fixed day in the future when everyone will be brought to stand before their Creator, Allah, to account for all that they did in their life. Those who believed in Him and practiced righteousness, will be rewarded and those who were irresponsible and practiced evil will be punished severely. Many people, however, have already passed away and are still waiting for the Day of Judgment in their graves.
For those who believed and did good in this life, their grave will be spacious and well lit. Their deeds will come to them in the form of a handsome attendant who will speak kindly and keep them company till the Day of Judgment. From their graves, they will be able to see their place in Paradise. They will beg Allah to bring the Day soon, so that they can receive their reward as soon as possible.
For those who did not believe in Allah or did evil in this world, their grave will be very dark, tight and restrictive, so much so that they will feel their ribs crossing over each other in the middle of their chest. Their deeds will come to them in the form of an ugly and mean attendant. From their graves, they will be able to see their place in Hellfire. They will beg Allah not to bring the Day of Judgment so that they would not suffer what is in store for them.
There is a wealth of information available to those who would like to know more about this key issue for all of mankind. All we need to do is read the Qur'an and books of hadith that deal with this subject. The truth about the next life is easily accessible in these two sources.
I hope this has helped you to understand the subject a little better. I pray that Allah guides us all to what pleases Him and benefits us in this life and the next, thank you.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Science/2003/01/article06.shtml
Ressurection:
Belief in al-akhirah (life after death) is so crucial to the Islamic faith that any doubts about it amount to the denial of Allah (God). Allah's own word in the Qur'an is the foundation of this faith. Besides, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) explained the centrality of this belief for a person who wishes to lead an Islamic life.
We know that we have no means of knowing life after death as a perceptual experience. But Allah has given us certain levels of consciousness that provide us with insight into realities not perceptible through the senses. The Qur'an speaks to our rational mind when it answers the disbelievers who ask, "Who will give life to the dead bones?" The answer is, of course, the One Who created them.
Allah in the Holy Qur'an appeals to man's reasoning and addresses his power of reflection and judgment by asking him to reflect on how rain revives the dead earth. This is something that is obvious to us; if so, how can we then deny the truth of the resurrection, when Almighty Allah can just as easily revive the dead bones as He revives the earth?
(It is Allah Who sends forth the Winds, so that they raise up the clouds, and We drive them to a land that is dead, and revive the earth therewith after its death: even so [will be] the Resurrection!) (35: 9).
The Qur'an repeatedly tells us that those who believe and do righteous deeds will be greatly rewarded in the afterlife, while those who disbelieve and do bad deeds will be severely punished.
Belief in life after death gives meaning to our life, for it tells us that this life is only a test and preparation for an eternal life. Furthermore, we know that in the afterlife we will receive justice for all the wrongs we suffer here. It may seem that the sinful and corrupt are often happier or wealthier than the righteous, but that is only for a short time. In the afterlife they will get their due.
Belief in life after death encourages a person to lead a good life on earth, since he knows the fate that awaits him if he ignores the commands and warnings of Allah given in the Qur'an. In fact, belief in the afterlife is the strongest incentive for a person to lead a life of virtue here. The real road to a peaceful society can be paved only if people believe in an afterlife.
Heaven:
In fact, the term 'Heaven' - capitalized - has a shared meaning in Islam and all the other revealed religions. Primarily, it refers to that beautiful abode where, those who believe in only God, humble themselves to worship Him, do the good and avoid the evil, are promised to go after the end of this worldly life. In this sense, it is the synonym of the "Gardens of Paradise", which is the equivalent of the Arabic word: Jannah. Those blessed dwellers will live there in an everlasting life.
This term, in Christian theology, may also mean a name of God the All Mighty. Again, in the sufist (mystic) tradition of both religions, this term means an ecstatic state of communion with God.
Thus, it is obvious that all the connotations of this word are spiritual and highly exalted, above the human level of worldly experience. It is a transcendental space that the believers, though never experienced, yet are able to conceive through the detailed description that God has supplied them with. This is in order to arouse their incitement and longing for it. It is difficult to quote the many verses in Qur'an that describe Heaven, as these are so many!
It might be sufficient to know that every pleasure in that Heaven is unparalleled to that in the worldly life. It is as the prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), described to enclose:
"What no eye has ever seen and no ear has never heard and no human heart has ever perceived." (Narrated in the book of compiled hadiths by Imam Muslim.)
Its food, houses, rivers, pleasures... everything is beyond imagination! And because the believer is always attached to the spiritual more than the sensual, even in Heaven, God has made the ultimate ecstasy for the believers there, is to look at His Holy Countenance. Such is a blessing, from which believers never get bored or even get accustomed to, despite familiarity.
Because this term – Heavens - refers to the place and condition of utmost happiness, it was borrowed or say, "hijacked", by those whose philosophy of life is a mere hedonistic one. I think that their choice of this word in particular is evidence, in itself, of their awareness of the model image of happiness and bliss.
But the gap is quite wide, between the model image and this worldly application of pleasure, which is definitely associated with a pain or discomfort of some kind, or at least with the sense of temporality or boredom. For this reason, those hedonists rely on a "carp diem" style of life. This is a Latin expression, which means: "live day by day". This would mean that you must exhaust your pleasure every day for fear that there may not be a second opportunity tomorrow!
If you need to know more about the description of Heaven, from the Islamic point of view, I recommend that you buy a CD of the Qur'an, the Muslim Holy book, and just search for the words "Heavens" and "Gardens of Paradise". Here, you will know much about the rewards that await the believers there and more important, the requirement for a believer to attain them. Such requirements would look simple compared to the reward, and can - with the mercy of God - be reached if one can persevere in obeying Allah and practicing true Islam.
Sorry for the long post really try to read it beacuse it is rather facinating.