Wow, pretty impressive,thanks
Any reasonably clever Neg can convince most people of anything. It is not a difficult task for some spirit to claim that it knew or created something since the humans often forget to ask for proof, and with the right amount of threats and bullying most are too afraid to question the Neg.
Xander
Miracles of the Qur'an
This information is gathered from the studies of Harun Yahya and his Book, Miracles of the Qur'an. You can also read his books online for free at, http://www.harunyahya.com/index.php
There are people who do not understand the vast amounts of knowledge that is within the Qur'an, knowledge which only today has been proven scientifically accurate. I would also like to state that the Qur'an was never altered, as in the case of the Bible. We know this as fact because we have found pieces of gold with the Qur'an inscribed on it which date back to the Origin of Islam. The most valuable proof I can offer to you, that the Qur'an was never altered, is an old 14th century Quran which is left in tact and can be viewed by anyone. The following link will take you to a page where you can actually veiw the 14th century Qur'an online:
http://www.bl.uk/collections/treasures/treasures.html#
Now on to the Miracles of the Qur'an:
"He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth."(The Qur'an, 6:101)
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_02_02.jpg)
This information given in the Qur'an is in full agreement with the findings of contemporary science. The conclusion that astrophysics has reached today is that the entire universe, together with the dimensions of matter and time, came into existence as a result of a great explosion that occurred in no time. This event, known as "The Big Bang" proved that the universe was created from nothingness as the result of the explosion of a single point. Modern scientific circles are in agreement that the Big Bang is the only rational and provable explanation of the beginning of the universe and of how the universe came into being.
Before the Big Bang, there was no such thing as matter. From a condition of non-existence in which neither matter, nor energy, nor even time existed, and which can only be described metaphysically, matter, energy, and time were all created. This fact, only recently discovered by modern physics, was announced to us in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_02_01.jpg)
The sensitive sensors on board the COBE space satellite which was launched by NASA in 1992, captured evidentiary remnants of the Big Bang. This discovery served as evidence for the Big Bang, which is the scientific explanation of the fact that the universe was created from nothing.
In the Qur'an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)
The word "heaven", as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur'an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Qur'an it is revealed that the universe "expands". And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time". The research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology, however, have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning, and that it constantly "expands".
At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.
This fact was proved also by observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding. This fact was explained in the Qur'an when that was still unknown to anyone. This is because the Qur'an is the word of God, the Creator, and the Ruler of the entire universe.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_03_03.jpg)
From the moment of the big bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
(The Qur'an, 21:30)
The word ratq translated as "sewn to" means "mixed in each, blended" in Arabic dictionaries. It is used to refer to two different substances that make up a whole. The phrase "we unstitched" is the verb fataqa in Arabic and implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of ratq. The sprouting of a seed from the soil is one of the actions to which this verb is applied.
Let us take a look at the verse again with this knowledge in mind. In the verse, sky and earth are at first subject to the status of ratq. They are separated (fataqa) with one coming out of the other. Intriguingly, when we remember the first moments of the Big Bang, we see that a single point included all the matter in the universe. In other words, everything, including "the heavens and earth" which were not created yet, were included in this point in a condition of ratq. This point exploded violently, causing its matter to fataqa and in the process created the structure of the whole universe.
When we compare the expressions in the verse with scientific findings, we see that they are in perfect agreement with each other. Interestingly enough, these findings were not arrived at until the 20th century.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_04_01.jpg)
The picture represents the Big Bang, which revealed once again that God created the universe from nothingness. The Big Bang is a theory that has been proven with scientific evidence. Although some scientists tried to advance alternative theories against the Big Bang, scientific evidence caused the theory to be completely accepted by the scientific community.
"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)
It is mentioned in another verse, too, that the Sun is not static but moves in a definite orbit:
"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. "
(The Qur'an, 36:38)
These facts communicated in the Qur'an have been discovered by astronomical observations in our age. According to the calculations of experts on astronomy, the Sun is traveling at the enormous speed of 720,000 kilometers an hour in the direction of the star Vega in a particular orbit called the Solar Apex. This means that the sun travels roughly 17,280,000 kilometers a day. Along with the Sun, and all planets and satellites within the gravitational system of the Sun also travel the same distance. In addition, all the stars in the universe are in a similar planned motion.
That the entire universe is full of paths and orbits such as this one, is written in the Qur'an as follows:
"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_05_01.jpg)
There are about 200 billion galaxies in the universe, consisting of nearly 200 billion stars in each. Most of these stars have planets, and most of those planets have satellites. All of these heavenly bodies move in very precisely computed orbits. For millions of years, each has been "swimming" along in its own orbit in perfect harmony and order with all the others. Moreover, many comets also move along in the orbits determined for them.
The orbits in the universe do not only belong to celestial bodies. The galaxies also travel at enormous speeds in computed, planned orbits. During these movements, none of these celestial bodies cuts across another's path, or collides with another.
Surely at the time the Qur'an was revealed, mankind did not possess today's telescopes or advanced observation technologies to observe millions of kilometres of space, nor the modern knowledge of physics or astronomy. Therefore, at that time, it was not possible to determine scientifically that space is "full of paths and orbits" as stated in the verse. However, this was openly declared to us in the Qur'an that was revealed at that time:-because the Qur'an is the word of God.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_05_02.jpg)
Like many other comets in the universe, Halley's comet, seen above, also moves in a planned orbit. It has a specific orbit and it moves in this orbit in a perfect harmony with other celestial bodies.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_05_03.jpg)
All celestial bodies including planets, satellites of these planets, stars, and even galaxies have their own orbits that have been determined with very delicate computations. The One Who established this perfect order and maintains it is God, Who created the entire universe.
"He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night."
(The Qur'an, 39:5)
In the Qur'an, the words used for describing the universe are quite remarkable. The Arabic word that is translated as "to wrap" in the above verse is "takwir". In English, it means "to make one thing lap over another, folded up as a garment that is laid away". (For instance, in Arabic dictionaries this word is used for the action of wrapping one thing around another, in the way that a turban is put on.)
The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping each other up includes accurate information about the shape of the world. This can be true only if the earth is round. This means that in the Qur'an, which was revealed in the 7th century, the roundness of the world was hinted at.
It should be remembered, however, that the understanding of astronomy of the time perceived the world differently. It was then thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief. The verses of the Qur'an, however, include information that we have learned only in the past century. Since the Qur'an is God's word, the most correct words were used in it when it comes to describing the universe.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_06_01.jpg)
In the Qur'an, God calls our attention to a very interesting attribute of the sky:
"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)
This attribute of the sky has been proved by scientific research carried out in the 20th century.
The atmosphere surrounding the earth serves crucial functions for the continuity of life. While destroying many meteors big and small as they approach the earth, it prevents them from falling to earth and harming living things.
In addition, the atmosphere filters the light rays coming from space that are harmful to living things. Interestingly, the atmosphere lets only harmless and useful rays- visible light, near ultraviolet light, and radio waves pass through. All of this radiation is vital for life. Near ultraviolet rays, which are only partially let in by the atmosphere, are very important for the photosynthesis of plants and for the survival of all living beings. The majority of the intense ultraviolet rays emitted from the sun are filtered out by the ozone layer of the atmosphere and only a limited-and essential-part of the ultraviolet spectrum reaches the Earth.
The protective function of the atmosphere does not end here. The atmosphere also protects the earth from the freezing cold of the space, which is about minus 270° C.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_07_01.jpg%3Cbr%20/%3E)
The atmosphere only lets rays required for life reach the Earth. Ultraviolet rays, for example, make it to the world only partially. This is the most appropriate range to allow plants to make photosynthesis and eventually for all living things to survive.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_07_02.jpg)
This illustration shows meteors that are about to crash into the earth. The celestial bodies wandering in space could pose a serious threat to the Earth. Yet, God, He Who creates most perfectly, has made the atmosphere a protective roof. Thanks to this special protection, most meteoroids do not harm the Earth, as they fall to pieces in the atmosphere.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_07_03.jpg)
Most people looking at the sky do not think about the protective aspect of the atmosphere. They almost never think what kind of a place the world would be like if this structure did not exist. The above photo belongs to a giant crater caused by a meteor that fell in Arizona, in the USA. If the atmosphere did not exist, millions of meteoroids would fall to the Earth and the Earth would become an inhabitable place. Yet, the protective aspect of the atmosphere allows living things to survive in safety. This is certainly God's protection of people, and a miracle proclaimed in the Qur'an.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_07_04.jpg)
The energy released in a Sun burst is so powerful that the human mind would hardly comprehend it: A single burst is equivalent to 100 billion atomic bombs similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima. The world is protected from the destructive effects of this energy by the atmosphere and the Van Allen Belts.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_07_05.jpg)
As we move from the Earth, which is perfectly fitted for human life, beyond the atmosphere into the space, we come across a freezing cold. The world is protected from the freezing cold of space, which is around -270 degrees, by the help of the atmosphere.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_07_06.jpg)
The magnetosphere layer, formed by the magnetic field of the Earth, serves as a shield protecting the earth from celestial bodies, harmful cosmic rays and particles. In the above picture, this magnetosphere layer, which is also named Van Allen Belts, is seen. These belts at thousands of kilometres above the earth protect the living things on the Earth from the fatal energy that would otherwise reach it from space.
All these scientific findings prove that the world is protected in a very particular way. The important thing is that this protection was made known in the Qur'an in the verse "We made the sky a preserved and protected roof" 1,400 years ago.
It is not only the atmosphere that protects the Earth from harmful effects. In addition to the atmosphere, the Van Allen Belt, a layer caused by the magnetic field of the Earth, also serves as a shield against the harmful radiation that threatens our planet. This radiation, which is constantly emitted by the Sun and other stars, is deadly to living things. If the Van Allen belt did not exist, the massive outbursts of energy called solar flares that frequently occur in the Sun would destroy all life on Earth.
Dr. Hugh Ross has this to say on the importance of Van Allen Belts to our lives:
In fact, the Earth has the highest density of any of the planets in our Solar System. This large nickel-iron core is responsible for our large magnetic field. This magnetic field produces the Van-Allen radiation shield, which protects the Earth from radiation bombardment. If this shield were not present, life would not be possible on the Earth. The only other rocky planet to have any magnetic field is Mercury - but its field strength is 100 times less than the Earth's. Even Venus, our sister planet, has no magnetic field. The Van-Allen radiation shield is a design unique to the Earth.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_07_07.jpg)
The energy transmitted in just one of these bursts detected in recent years was calculated to be equivalent to 100 billion atomic bombs similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima. Fifty-eight hours after the burst, it was observed that the magnetic needles of compasses displayed unusual movement and 250 kilometers above the earth's atmosphere, the temperature suddenly increased to 2,500° C.
In short, a perfect system is at work high above the Earth. It surrounds our world and protects it against external threats. Scientists only learned about it recently, yet centuries ago, God informed us in the Qur'an of the world's atmosphere functioning as a protective shield.
The verse 11 of Sura Tarik in the Qur'an, refers to the "returning" function of the sky.
"By Heaven with its cyclical systems."
(The Qur'an, 86:11)
This word interpreted as "cyclical" in Qur'an translations also has meanings of "sending back" or "returning".
As known, the atmosphere surrounding the Earth consists of many layers. Each layer serves an important purpose for the benefit of life. Research has revealed that these layers have the function of turning the materials or rays they are exposed to back into space or back down to the Earth. Now let us examine with a few examples of this "recycling" function of the layers encircling the Earth.
The troposphere, 13 to 15 kilometers above the Earth, enables water vapor rising from the surface of the Earth to be condensed and turn back as rain.
The ozone layer, at an altitude of 25 kilometers, reflects harmful radiation and ultraviolet light coming from space and turns both back into space.
The ionosphere, reflects radio waves broadcast from the Earth back down to different parts of the world, just like a passive communications satellite, and thus makes wireless communication, radio, and television broadcasting possible over long distances.
The magnetosphere layer turns the harmful radioactive particles emitted by the Sun and other stars back into space before they reach the Earth.
The fact that this property of the atmosphere's layers, that was onlt demonstrated in the recent past was announced centuries ago in the Qur'an, once again demonstrates that the Qur'an is the word of God.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_08_01.jpg)
The presence of water is essential for life on Earth. One of the factors acting in the formation of water is the Troposphere, one of the layers of the atmosphere. The troposphere layer enables water vapour rising from the surface of the Earth to be condensed and turn back down to the Earth as rain.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_08_02.jpg)
The atmosphere layer that blocks the rays that might be fatal to life on Earth is the Ozonosphere. The Ozonosphere turns harmful cosmic rays like ultraviolet back to space, hence preventing them from reaching the Earth and harming life.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_08_03.jpg)
Each layer of the atmosphere has beneficial attributes for human beings. The Ionosphere layer, one of the upper layers of the atmosphere, for example, reflects radio waves broadcast from a certain centre back down to the Earth, thus enabling broadcasts to be received from long distances.
One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers.
"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)
"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)
The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_09_01.jpg)
The Earth has all the attributes that are needed for life. One of them is the atmosphere, which serves as a shield protecting living things. Today, it is an established fact that the atmosphere is made up of different layers lying on top of one another. Just as it is described in the Qur'an, the atmosphere is made up of exactly seven layers. This is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an.
Indeed, today it is known that the world's atmosphere consists of different layers that lie on top of each other. Furthermore, it consists, just as is described in the Qur'an, of exactly seven layers. In a scientific source, the subject is described as follows:
Scientists have found that the atmosphere consists of several layers. The layers differ in such physical properties as pressure and the types of gasses. The layer of the atmosphere closest to Earth is called the TROPOSPHERE. It contains about 90% of the total mass of the atmosphere. The layer above the troposphere is called the STRATOSPHERE. The OZONE LAYER is the part of the stratosphere where absorption of ultraviolet rays occurs. The layer above the stratosphere is called the MESOSPHERE. The THERMOSPHERE lies above the mesosphere. The ionized gases form a layer within the thermosphere called the IONOSPHERE. The outermost part of Earth's atmosphere extends from about 480 km out to 960 km. This part is called the EXOSPHERE. (2)
If we count the number of layers cited in this source, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.
1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Ozonosphere
4. Mesosphere
5. Thermosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Exosphere
Another important miracle on this subject is mentioned in the statement "(He) revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate.", in verse 12 of Sura Fussilet. In other words, in the verse, God states that He assigned each heaven its own duty. Truly, as seen in previous chapters, each one of these layers has vital duties for the benefit of human kind and all other living things on the Earth. Each layer has a particular function, ranging from forming rain to preventing harmful rays, from reflecting radio waves, to averting the harmful effects of meteors.
One of these functions, for example, is stated in a scientific source as follows:
Earth's atmosphere has 7 layers. The lowest layer is called troposphere. Rain, snow and wind only take place in the troposphere.(3)
It is a great miracle that these facts, which could not possibly be discovered without the technology of the 20th century, were explicitly stated by the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_09_02.jpg)
14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers. Modern science, on the other hand, discovered the fact that the atmosphere surrounding the Earth is made up of "seven" basic layers only very recently.
The Qur'an draws attention to a very important geological function of mountains.
"We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them"
(The Qur'an, 21:31)
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_10_01.jpg)Mountains have roots deep under the surface of the ground. (Earth, Press and Siever, p. 413)
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_10_02.jpg)Schematic section. Mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. (Anatomy of the Earth, Cailleux, p.220)
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_10_03.jpg)Another illustration shows how mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots. (Earth Science, Tarbuck and Lutgens, p.158)
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_10_04.jpg)
As we have noticed, it is stated in the verse that mountains have the function of preventing shocks in the Earth.
This fact was not known by anyone at the time the Qur'an was revealed. It was in fact brought to light only recently as a result of the findings of modern geology.
According to these findings, mountains emerge as a result of the movements and collisions of massive plates forming the Earth's crust. When two plates collide, the stronger one slides under the other, the one on the top bends and forms heights and mountains. The layer beneath proceeds under the ground and makes a deep extension downward. That means that mountains have a portion stretching downwards, as large as their visible parts on the Earth.
In a scientific text, the structure of mountains is described as follows:
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_10_06.jpg)
Where continents are thicker, as in mountain ranges, the crust sinks deeper into the mantle.(4)
In a verse, this role of the mountains is pointed out by a comparison with "pegs":
"Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs?"
(The Qur'an, 78:6-7)
Mountains, in other words, clench the plates in the Earth's crust together by extending above and beneath the Earth's surface at the conjunction points of these plates. In this way, they fix the Earth's crust, and prevent it from drifting over the magma stratum or among its plates. Briefly, we may liken mountains to nails that keep pieces of wood together.
This fixing function of the mountains is described in scientific literature by the term "isostasy". Isostasy means the following:
Isostasy: general equilibrium in the Earth's crust maintained by a yielding flow of rock material beneath the surface under gravitational stress.(5)
This vital role of mountains, that was discovered by modern geology and seismic research, was revealed in the Qur'an centuries ago as an example of the supreme wisdom in God's creation.
"We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them..."
(The Qur'an, 21:31)
(http://www.harunyahya.com/images_miracle_Quran/part1_10_05.jpg)
With extensions that mountains extend out towards under the ground as well as over the ground, they clench different plates of the earth together like a peg. The Earth's crust consists of plates that are in constant motion. This clenching property of mountains prevents shocks to a great extent, by fixing the earth's crust, which has a very movable structure.
There is much much more, I will try to add it in later.
This post is still here! I am glad it survived the merging.
Mohamed_
I agree that the Qur'an contains a whole collection of awesome scientific information, much more than the Christian bible/OT for example.
It is my understanding that the reason for all this is quite straightforward, as the early Muslim fathers (and Mohamed himself) would have had the opportunity to access the best of Greek knowledge, particuarly in the east. Alexandria was a world centre of learning and there was plenty oportunities for people to gain access to such advanced knowledge if desired. Much of this appears to have found its way into the Qur'an, which doesnt suprise me as the early Islamic scholars were very keen to preserve the best of Greek knowledge.
Doug
Hi:
It sounds to me like all you are doing is cherry-picking and curve-fitting experiences after the event. I can tell you the winning numbers of every lottery after the draw. But did anyone actually come up with this at the time? Before science came along and explained it all? Your post reminds me of those stock market trading adverts you often see in the financial press. "Look how much money you would have made if you had... blah blah blah". Pity they are not so clever as to have actually come up with those winning investment ideas before the event!
I'm surprised you maintain the "Big Bang" as it's called, has been proven as fact. The Big Bang theory is just that, a theory. It is the only rational description that some scientists have concocted to date and a number of other theories abound. Although it's mighty convenient for you to say that science has proven the Big Bang to be fact. They have actually done no such thing.
I think your translation of the early use of the word "heaven" in now saying they meant the atmosphere is a bit far fetched. Why didn't they just say the atmosphere if that's what they meant? But no, they are talking about looking up into heaven, talking about up there, in the sky. If they were talking about the actual atmosphere they'd have said so. After all, the atmosphere is not actually up there in the sky. It's here, all around us. It's only now that someone comes along and tries to curve fit the meaning.
Plus, I'm not sure what the Ionosphere has to do with the reflecting of television signals. For particular and rather boring technical reasons I shall refrain from explaining, TV signals are situated in the UHF frequency band, up around 800 MHz. This is point-to-point UHF transmission. These kinds of signals simply pass right through the Ionosphere. If the Ionosphere reflected these kinds of radio signals then how on earth could we transmit and receive from satellites? How do we talk to probes we send to Mars and places? If what you say is true, the moment the US Space Shuttle went through the Ionosphere no communication would be possible.
One of the more obvious ways people curve-fit is to come along after the event and assign several different meanings to the same word. Like your word "heaven" means the universe and space, and you forgot atmosphere if your version is to be believed. Problem is, the passage then loses all credibility. Because these people would have made such distinctions if they actually meant such different things. All the guy said was this God fella directed his attention up to heaven and arranged it into 7 regular heavens. Over a thousand years later you come along claiming this is the explicit stating of old Goddo creating the atmosphere. I would say there is absolutely nothing explicit about it at all. In fact, it's about as vague an explanation as I have seen, and it could mean anything, which is precisely the point I'm making. All you are doing is chopping and changing the meaning to suit your agenda and the only "miracle" in my view is that people get away with purporting this kind of stuff.
In fact, your chopping and changing of definitions is so obvious I'm surprised you even bother trying to pitch it in such a serious way. One moment you are saying that the word heaven also means the atmosphere as well as the word universe and the word space, and then you claim the word "sky" means the atmosphere, but in other places you make out the word sky means the universe. You really should make up your mind and define one or the other. Because if not, all you are doing is curve fitting the meaning and cherry picking the instances where curve fitting works (of a fashion) and you ignore the times when it doesn't.
When people are being poetic and fanciful, they chop and change meanings and contexts. This is all part and parcel of being poetic and fanciful. But if you wish to present your revelations in a scientific way, by definition there is an intrinsic need to remain strictly congruent.
I couldn't help having a hearty chuckle, though, at your presentation of the protective effects of the atmosphere against meteorites. Concluding that if we didn't have an atmosphere then many more meteorites would be falling to earth doing all manner of damage. Yeah, and why would anyone care? :)
Plus, claiming that mountains somehow prevent earthquakes is also rather far fetched. We get earthquakes all the time. I like mountains and can understand how people would get a little romantically inclined when looking at them. In winter here, when I see the red of the setting sun reflecting off the pure white snow-capped mountains I turn to jelly, it's so beautiful it makes me stand in awe. Thinking of them as the "nails" that secure the earth. How wonderfully poetic, delightfully romantic.
Unfortunately, when you look at the facts of what you have presented we see that your version states that the mountains were placed so the earth would not move under them. Yet in the next breath you give a definition of "Isostasy" as meaning the general equilibrium in the Earth's crust maintained by a yielding flow of rock material beneath the surface. One definition says not moving, the scientific definition says is moving.
If you are going to give definitions then, if I may suggest, it would perhaps be more apt if you would make sure the definition you present actually supports your argument!
Yours,
Frank
...
Gandalf,
That is very interesting! I have often times wondered the same thing however was never able to get a hold of Greek science. I would appreciate any reference or book devoted to ancient knowledge studied by the early Muslim scholars.
Frank,
Its seems to me that you love to dabble in heated internet debates, however I will spare you the fun this time. The original post was created 2 years ago, shortly after I converted to Islam. I felt a need to prove myself then; I no longer feel this need.
Shinobi,
I have been looking for this for some time now, thanks for posting it!
Quote from: MohamedI felt a need to prove myself then; I no longer feel this need.
This is very good Mohamed.
What this tells me is that you are progressing (or have progressed) from being religious to being spiritual.
What I see as being a common mistake among religions and many of their scholars is the way in which they make literal interpretations of their respective holy texts.
The Qur'an, the Bible, the Bhagavita-Gita, and other prominent religious texts all contain a wealth of truly wonderful spiritual knowledge and insight. But it's not like reading an instruction manual, you have to know how to find it.
It's like going up to a Zen Buddhist monk, asking a thoughtful question, and expecting a straight forward answer. You'll get a reply, and the answer will be in that reply, but you'll only understand the answer when you yourself have reached a certain level of understanding.
Think also about The Celestine Prophecies, for those who have read it. Many people get so far into the book, then can't seem to understand what it's on about. This is because they need reach a level of understanding in order to get the concepts.
When it comes to communication from higher (Divine) sources, verbal language is the least effective form. When recieving messages from spirits, only the more basic messages are given by way of words. The more important messages are given as images and/or feelings.
It is said a picture is worth a thousand words? A picture that comes with a feeling is worth far more!
When the Divine messages contained within the religious texts were communicated to the physical world, they were done so mostly as images and feelings, and those who recorded them did their best to capture all of that in words. This then relies on the reader being at a level of understanding that the words can then be reformed within them to reveal the original images and feelings.
To interpret these words literally, as so many religious scholars and preachers like to do, is to look at the type of paint used, the quality and make of the canvas, comment on the technique of the brush strokes, and completely miss what's actually in the picture.
Blessings,
James.
"This post is still here! I am glad it survived the merging."
Hi:
But you saw fit to bump the post with the above text all the same, you must have done that for a reason. If you had simply wished to see if the post was still there you would have done a simple search in order to find out. You obviously wanted to bring attention to the post and you have. But it perhaps wasn't quite the attention you expected, I understand. :)
Yours,
Frank
Shinobi:
Wow, I never realised that this shoehorning business was a fairly universal thing. I thought this original post was just the rantings of a one-off "nutty professor" type of situation. I found the quotes you presented quite interesting in a mind boggling sort of way.
Personally, I'm still chuckling my socks off over the first one:
"1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
DEFINITION: Atom
Things which are seen and not made of things which do appear.
Absolutely priceless, lol.
Yours,
Frank
Yes, also it was the Greek philosophers who first came up with 'atomic theory', although this was a purely philosophical based theory. Basically it said that ALL matter, whatever its form, was all composed of the same base material, but arranged in different ways: tiny units labled 'atoms'. The individual who first spouted this theory was Democritus and some others around the time period 5th century BC.
For this reason, scientific 'atomic theory' in the 20th century was named after the ancient philosophical model, even using the same label 'atoms' to describe the basic units of matter.
For reasons such as these, there is at least *some* grounds for stating that there is a good range of Greek knowledge in the Qu'ran. Although I agree that the some of the described 'facts' push the credibility limits!
Doug
James,
The evolution of religious to spiritual is exactly how I have defined the shift in my view of the world. Upon conversion to Islam I held on to the literal meaning of the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad in the Sunnah. It was not until I grasped the essence of the religion that I found it very similar to Judaism and Christianity.
I would also like to state that my beliefs are not completely restricted to Islam either. I follow aspects of other religions as well; primarily from Hinduism (I own the Stephen Mitchell translation of the Bhagavad Gita). My main belief system follows that of the Jewish-Christian-Muslim beliefs however, and I am more lenient to the belief of one perfect deity.
"However men try to reach me, I return their love with my love; whatever path they may travel, it leads to me in the end." (4.11 Bhagavad Gita)
The above verse describes what you are talking about James; at least within me. When I read the above I am overwhelmed with emotion, a feeling of calm and love; that all the gods we worship, whether it is Allah, The Trinity, G-d, or Krishna; that god is the same God, and he hears our prayers and loves us as long as we try to reach him.
Also in the favor of your argument is the revelation to Muhammad. Gabriel 'communicated' Islam to Muhammad, but as far as we know this was no verbal communication. I would imagine it as just knowing. Muhammad was probably overwhelmed with emotions and visions during the revelation, and with the blessing of literacy during the miracle in the cave he was able to translate the revelation into words. Unless you have progressed spiritually to a certain level, how can you possibly understand what Muhammad was trying to describe.
This same argument goes for the Qur'an and Bhagavad Gita. These two books follow a poetic dialog filled with mystical meanings. Both very beautiful and wondrous books over filled with wisdom.
I have not read the Celestine Prophesies yet but look forward to doing so, and any other literature that is available.
Frank,
How could you possibly think for a moment that you understand my reasons for bumping this post? Yes I wanted to bring attention to it, but guess what; I received exactly the attention I wanted. Don't believe me? Well if you are itching to know I would be glad to PM you my reason because it is based partially on you. If you really don't care, then please let the matter drop, I don't wish to argue with you about it and to stay on course I will not reply any more messages of this sort.
Peace,
Mohamed
Doug:
That's kind of interesting because for a while I've been of the opinion that all physical matter is composed to the very same base material. Though not Atoms, exactly, but they do come into it obviously. But it just goes to show how the Greeks were right on track in their thinking. No wonder everyone else was cribbing off them. :)
Yours,
Frank
Mohamed:
If you wanna bump up your own posts that's fine by me. I just happened to read through it and noticed a number of things that didn't quite add up that's all. I think the descriptive phrase is stretching the narrative. I thought my picking holes in your post was something you were objecting to. But if you actually did it for me, kind of knowing I would do that or something then great, I don't mind at all.
For a moment, when you refused to respond, I thought I'd upset you or something. Okay, so you are not that hot on the Moslem thing now. That's cool. As I'm on, I couldn't help but wonder in your latest post where you say, "Unless you have progressed spiritually to a certain level, how can you possibly understand what Muhammad was trying to describe." Your words got me curious about what "level" you meant. I wondered if you could let me know where or what this level is exactly.
Yours,
Frank
Frank,
The level I am describing is not a place but more of a connection with the ultimate deity. Muhammad searched for a god and through his search he became more spiritual. He found refuge from the world around him in a cave where he went to become closer to God. When Gabriel first communicated to Muhammad and confirmed his prophet hood, he leaped to a level so high and so close to God that it would be difficult to reproduce his revelation in words, even in a language as detailed as the Arabic language.
For us to understand Muhammad's revelation we must also excel spiritually. Like James said, "It's like going up to a Zen Buddhist monk, asking a thoughtful question, and expecting a straight forward answer. You'll get a reply, and the answer will be in that reply, but you'll only understand the answer when you yourself have reached a certain level of understanding."
In order for us to 'see' what Muhammad saw and 'feel' what Muhammad felt during his encounters with Gabriel, we need to first 'be' at his level of understanding. Because of his leap in spirituality due to his prophet hood, many of us will not be able to fully understand the Qur'an, but many of us will come close, and few of us will completely understand it.
Just like the Bhagavad Gita; the Qur'an contains many parables that need to be "meditated" upon to fully understand them, and many of them go misunderstood.
Doug,
I have read some of your other posts concerning Judaism and ancient Babylon. Do you have any references that I may look at?
Peace,
Mohamed
Mohamed:
I read what James said and with all respect to James, I immediately thought that if Zen Buddhist Monks were so clever and had such insight then they'd be able to explain it in a language I'd be able to understand. Not that I actually know what a Zen Buddhist Monk is. Sounds a tad scary if you ask me.
That's why a lot of these parables go misunderstood. Because no one can understand them, of course. Doesn't take much brainpower to figure that one out. Even I can do it. Problem is real people lead busy lives. They haven't got time to meditate on parables and stuff. They want information they can use now, today, that's gonna give them results yesterday. It's all very well talking about going to live in a cave to get to this amazing "level" that you describe. But we all stopped living in caves yonks ago.
What's so special about this book anyway? It's 12th century technology that has no real bearing on the wider reality of today. If most people can't understand it then that's hardly surprising. If I took my laptop to the 12th century do you reckon they'd be able to type posts on it? What, they'd be able to understand Windows XP? How about programming in HTML, or creating a Java Script or two? I very much doubt it. They'd have to invent electricity to power it for a start. So what's the big deal about us not being able to understand their book?
Could you imagine if I drove my car into the 12th century, they'd freak.
In fact, take anything about our technology we take for granted today to the 12th century and they'd freak, big time. They could no more understand our scientific writings as we can understand their parables about whatever it is they happened to feel important in the 12th century. It's a totally different world today. Those parables you talk about cannot be understood by us in the same way as they would not understand our writings or our technology of today. There is no "hidden meaning". Once you hold an allowance for the humungous differences in respective technology, the difficulties in comprehension are easily explainable and fully acceptable given the circumstances.
All you are doing, IMO, is trying to create mystery where none exists.
You say that in order for us to "see" what Muhammad saw and "feel" what Muhammad felt during his encounters with Gabriel, we need to first "be" at his level of understanding. That is so true. I agree wholeheartedly with you on that. But there is no way we can now step back far enough in thinking. We have come too far. We are way too advanced now, it simply couldn't happen. All that will happen is people will leave it all further and further behind.
Yours,
Frank
Quote from: Frank
Problem is real people lead busy lives. They haven't got time to meditate on parables and stuff. They want information they can use now, today, that's gonna give them results yesterday. It's all very well talking about going to live in a cave to get to this amazing "level" that you describe. But we all stopped living in caves yonks ago...
This, IMO, is unfortunately what's causing the problems with most of the interpretations of religious texts. Scholars are trying to put it into current, semi quick-fix instructional language, and it just doesn't work that way.
As I mentioned, verbal or written language is possibly the poorest way to communicate feelings and conceptual images.
Quote...But there is no way we can now step back far enough in thinking. We have come too far. We are way too advanced now, it simply couldn't happen. All that will happen is people will leave it all further and further behind.
I believe there is a way we can recapture this. Difficult, in our society yes, but not impossible.
We may be much more advanced technologically, but we have advance very little, if at all spiritually. In fact I believe the more dependence we place on our technological society, the more our spirituality is supressed. This, I feel, is why we need to take the time to go and live in that cave, even metaphorically, from time to time to re-capture our spirituality, and learn that what we're about is so much more than the busy technologically reliant / compliant lives we live.
By the way, I just bought a new digital TV set top box, and now I'm having hassles connecting both it and my Xbox into the reciever (they both use the TV/Sat inputs), along with the DVD and VCR. I also have to work out how I can get an AV connection through the reciever out to the VCR, so that I don't have to rely on the lower quality RF connection for recording off the set top box.
Much meditation is now needed here I think!
It is spirituality, learning to look beyond the five sensory world, learning to go within for knowledge and wisdom, leaving the technological knowledge behind for a while, that can allow us to be open to the concepts presented by holy texts.
We have trouble understanding it as it is written in the language of the heart, not the mind. This is a language that is poorly served by words.
Blessings,
James.
James:
Thank you for your informed response.
I read what you said with interest and, in respect to your good self, have spent a while considering what you say. But I cannot get to grips with this notion that our spirituality is somehow "suppressed"... if so by whom?
Our creative essence has never been more prevalent than it is today. The very fact that we can converse directly though this medium is testament to our wondrous creativity in formulating communication channels between each other that are simply without precedent. Did we not "go within" ourselves in order to bring about this knowledge?
What is the language of the heart, James? Is it not real people attempting to reach out to others in order to develop a sense of mutual understanding? Has not our technology allowed us to do that even on an intercontinental level? Is that not a miracle? Because to me, it's a darned sight more miraculous than anything some darned book from the 12th century has to offer. There are so many "miracles" today, James, we just take them for granted.
If I brought a person from the 12th century into my life for a day, they would think a "miracle" was happening every minute. And I'd just be living my normal life! Could you imagine just plugging in a kettle or listening to the radio. They'd freak.
All this technology we have today, where do we get all this knowledge from? Where did it all come from, ultimately? It came from looking within. It's all spiritual knowledge being manifest. Human possibilities made real. The 12th century is the 12th century. It has all gone by, just as the 21st century will end up as having gone by. Perhaps people will look back at these times and call them the good old days, just like people today look back to times past.
It's all over. Humankind is moving on. There are no more caves. We have houses now with comfortable furnishings, central heating, electricity, computers and the Internet together with a host of other material comforts.
It's time certain types of people began to live in reality.
Times past are times past. In a linear time construct, we sit in the now and await our future that, when it becomes, becomes a new now, and so the process repeats. The past is always in the past. The past never becomes a new now. Only the future becomes a new now, never the past. The past is always past. That's a fundamental characteristic of linear time frameworks.
Whatever happened in the 12th century bears no relation to this day and age. So what, they have a book. Big deal, we have millions and millions of books. We can produce books today faster than those guys could blink.
Some guy sat in a cave, went within his own mind, revelled within his own belief constructs and wrote about it, big deal. We have thousands of books on that same topic today. Mystics revelling within Focus 2 of consciousness not realising where they are or what they're doing. Tell me something new.
Ah, but this book is different, they say...
Yeah, this Mohammed fella was one of the first and it just escalated from there. Same area of consciousness, same misunderstanding, only the language changed as the years went by.
Yours,
Frank
People take comfort in something written aeons ago as its age gives it an air of authenticity. A mistaken assumption in my view. You then get the problem of trying to reinterprete texts which were written for a completely different age and culture and try to mould them into a modern context.
I quote often get comments from christians about how 'there is a very good reason why christianity has been around for 2000 years you know'.
Actually I would disagree on one aspect of this point, christianity as we understand it today only really reached its recognisable form about 1500 years ago but that is besides the point.
However I agree that there is a very good reason why it has been so important for so long, but not the same reason they suggest: the very good reason is called 'Force'.
People in the past never had a choice: Peer pressure and pressure from above TOOK any personal choice away from them: everyone had to conform to the party line.
Isnt it interesting that since the Enlightenment period in the 18th century, when the new age of Rationalism began and the church lost its power, people started leaving the church in droves and continue to do so. That tells you something I think.
Doug
Hi Frank,
Good points!
It is true that we should consider ourselves better at being able to communicate concepts now than we were a few thousand years ago. With our global education and literacy being far greater than it was thousands of years ago, and our ability to communicate far more complex, there is no doubt that were such spiritual texts written now, they would be much more widely understood.
I did think of one important factor that supports what you are saying - it has been said that many of the bibles texts were written in such a way so that only a select group would understand their meaning, that its "deeper secrets" would not be known to the occupying government of the time.
It is likely that the bible is not the only religious text that was written in such a way that it attempts to remain "occult".
There is one modern example though, where spiritual concepts still require a certain level of inner understanding - the Celestine Prophecies. These were written within the last 10 years or so, in current language, and told as a story - easy to read and easy to follow. Yet I know many people who have only been able understand up to a certain point, as their own inner knowledge is not yet at the right level. When they reach that place of understanding, they will grasp the meaning of the next insight.
QuoteBut I cannot get to grips with this notion that our spirituality is somehow "suppressed"... if so by whom?
We supress it ourselves. In this day spiritual supression through blind reliance upon science and technology has left many people turning more and more to external sources for the answers to life's questions. Their inner voices have been drowned out by the incessant noise of modern living, and they no longer look within themselves, or accept responsibility for their own guidance.
Global communication, just as we are experiencing right now on this forum, has without a doubt helped unveil many "miracles" of pioneering and discovery through the sharing of more ideas from broader perspectives.
Yet there still remains within the new communications mediums available to us a coldness, as we break down the essences of our thoughts into logical analyses that are communicated in the most efficient way possible. The language of the heart? This is our feelings, that no ammounts of emoticons or adjectives can fully convey.
There is however definitely a balence, and I believe Frank, that you are not willing to accept the all-knowingness of ancient spiritual writings at the expense of modern methods of thinking and communicating. That is a good thing, and you definitely have something here.
I have been made aware of my ability to live in both worlds - I am both spiritualist and computer engineer. One should not be pursued at the expense of the other. We are at our most effective when we live within the balance of all or aspects.
I also managed to work out on the weekend how to get my digital set top box and Xbox working together, so I can now watch crystal clear TV and continue slaughtering alien antagonists to my hearts desire. :)
Blessings,
James.
James:
Well done for getting the Xbox and TV sorted, lol.
Something you said struck a responsive chord, "We supress it ourselves. In this day spiritual supression through blind reliance upon science and technology has left many people turning more and more to external sources for the answers to life's questions..."
Yep, people should no more blindly rely on science and technology than they should blindly rely on religion in my view. I have always believed that what is required is a "third way". Not a coming together of science and religion, but a genuine third way where we develop a whole new way forward and incorporate all of the wider reality in our thinking.
Yours,
Frank
Quote from: Frank
I have always believed that what is required is a "third way". Not a coming together of science and religion, but a genuine third way where we develop a whole new way forward and incorporate all of the wider reality in our thinking.
Ok, now you've found some really good bait and got me hooked!
What thoughts do you have so far on this?
Look forward to your ideas.
James.
Frank,
Your posts are very informative! I feel however that you are mingling technological development with spiritual development. Yes, over the years we have developed technologically, but can we really say that this is a development of the spirit? Mystics are frowned upon these days; because there is no concrete scientific evidence of the energy body or the soul then it can't be true.
Frank, because the Qur'an, the Torah, the Bible, and the Bhagavad Gita where written in times past, does not mean we should exclude them from our knowledge base. These books contain a vast amount of spiritual knowledge, some of which is claimed to have been inspired by the divine.
I believe if one is seeking spiritual development, and has reached a plateau; then perhaps looking towards the past and the spiritual texts of the past are a good way of climbing once again.
Hey all....just happened to check in and thought I would add my own two-cents worth here...
Because of the religious impositions placed upon biblical scripture, these texts (and the languages of the texts) have been misused and misinterpreted to the point that the original beauty of the texts and their ancient languages have all but disappeared. These texts were poetic texts and should be read as such. Both Greek and Semitic languages were used to create these ancient writings and that allows for a lot of possible translation word-choices. What Mohamed has done is no different than what other Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars have done, that is, chosen one of the possible translations of the texts[/i] to create their own interpretation. To do so is not incorrect unless the translator/interpreter claims that his/her translation/interpretation is the only correct translation/interpretation. ....And this my friends, is where religious impositions have run amok with these ancient texts.
Where the confusion comes in with the word 'heaven' having several different meanings, well...it actually does...BUT...those meanings are all built upon a basic root created with just two letters: shin and mem = shem.
One of the traditional meanings of this two letter root is the adverb shem which means "there" and relative to the earth in general would be 'that which is not here' but rather, 'there'.
So, with the letter 'yod' as a suffix, the word shemi is created which does mean "heaven" and "sky" (in the singular), but...
With the addition of another 'shin' as a suffix the word shemesh is created which means the "sun." Both of these examples are all relative to the earth.
Now, when the letter 'ayin' is added as a suffix, the word shema is created which is a well-used verb meaning "to hear." From this exact same spelling also come the nouns "sound" "hearing" and "report."
These are just a few of the myriad ways in which Semitic language is a very poetic language------and open to translation and interpretation.[/b]
I could of course go on and on, but I will finish up by pointing out another very important aspect of this same root:
Shem or the adverb 'there' is also the exact same word as the regular noun "name." So...
shemi may mean "heaven" and/or "sky", but ...
shemi also means "My Name."
Just some points to ponder...
Peace,
Beth
p.s.
I agree that there has to be a better way as well...so...I would also like to learn more about Frank's idea of a 'third way'...
--bp
Hey, Welcome back Beth!
Long time no see!
As you may have noticed, the three religion forums have been combined into one general 'world religions' section to cover everything.
This makes more sense as we are afterall primarily an astral projection/exploration forums, not a religious forum persay.
Hopefully catch you around!
Doug
Hey Doug!
Yes, I noticed the change....not a problem for me at all!
And may I say that as usual you are doing a 'marvelous' job moderating!
I will check in more often throughout the summer....
:D -- Beth
Hello again Beth,
Lovely to see you... well, your words... again.
"These texts were poetic texts and should be read as such."
Thank you! I've been fumbling around trying to think of a way of describing a "language of the heart", and you've very nicely mentioned the type of written language can be so - poetry.
As I mentioned before, when spirits communicate with people, verbal language is the most inneficient form they can use. Poetic texts can however, when well written, convey more feeling, more visualisations than say a journal or document of events. But even modern poetry requires the reader to be capable of understanding the images being formed in the words as the writer intended. This is a good example of what I was eluding to.
I feel then that I was wrong in saying that we are better able to communicate concepts now than we were a few thousand years ago. What you indicate here Beth, tells me that the writers of these texts we struggle with were exceptionally skilled with words.
Blessings,
James.
Hey James!! Nice to 'read' you again too!
Without doubt, these ancient writers were literary genii...and when these texts are approached from an ancient standpoint, instead of through centuries of religious positioning and editing, that literary genius is a wonder to behold.
Like I said, a very small slice of the population of antiquity were educated/literate enough to be able to create these texts, let alone critique each other's work, so originally, each and every text stood on its own. What we have with the bible and other religious works, are collections of these ancient writings, and the authors of these texts were very well educated.
Poetic writings are oftentimes written in such a way as to make them 'subjective' in that the written images may evoke one thing for one person but something quite different for another. These particular subjective evocations, however, were not necessarily the intended meaning by the original author. Because these ancient writers are not here to verify which interpretation is the correct one, readers are left to their own subjective devices.
These poetic images can certainly be used as symbolic data, so can certainly be used as communications from other non-physical entities, but even then, it is still subjective to the person receiving the message.
Bottom line, working with the actual texts and determining the many possible translations is one thing...determining the actual meaning of any one of them is quite another!
Peace,
Beth
Mohammed,
I agree with what you say in your last post.
I came from a Christian background, and was taught (almost militantly so)that the Bible is the ONLY true word of God.
Since then, I have turned from religious ways and now travel the path of a spiritualist. What amuses me is, when I leave out the obviously humanistic bits, I can see spiritual truths within the bible far more now than I did then. What's more, I see spiritual truths in ALL major religious texts. The thing I find funny is that religious die-hards would staunchly object to the idea that all their holy texts contain the same messages, just worded differently to better suit the "target audience" culture they were written for.
While I still believe that dependence on technological development has taken us further away from our Mother Earth, and the connection we have with the myriad of living things around us, I firmly believe there is a balance to be found in using technology to better the quality of our living standards, and retaining a connection to Nature and the life around us.
Just on a semi-related tangient...
As mentioned before, I am both a spiritualist and a computer engineer. I'm a reiki channel and crystal healer, a medium and a numerologist. I've written numerology software to assist me in the practice of providing spiritual guidance to others. I allow intuition to guide me when developing my software, so I know it will serve me well.
When working out programming problems, I will sometimes take my laptop, go into the forest and sit up against a tree, as I feel the energies of the forest to be cleansing and invigorating. I often feel the spirits around me when I do so. They don't particularly like some of the EM emissions the laptop gives off - they find the emissions "dirty", but they are still interested to help me in my endeavours to help provide guidance and healing to others.
As long as we don't become so overly absorbed in one world that we close ourselves off the other, there is a very useful balance to be found between the two.
...such as spending a few hours in meditation with the spirits in the local forest, then coming home to my entertainment system, arming myself with a plasma rifle, rocket launcher and lots of grenades, and blowing the heads off Covenant forces in Halo 2.
Most satisfying! :wink:
Blessings,
James.
Hi again Beth,
I just read your last post.
I wonder if part of the beauty of these ancient texts is that they can mean different things to different people?
We're not all on the same journey, and it's arrogant for anyone to think that we should be. If different people can get different spiritually beneficial messages from these writings, to me, that makes them all the more "Divine".
Blessings,
James.
Quote from: James SHi again Beth,
I just read your last post.
I wonder if part of the beauty of these ancient texts is that they can mean different things to different people?
We're not all on the same journey, and it's arrogant for anyone to think that we should be. If different people can get different spiritually beneficial messages from these writings, to me, that makes them all the more "Divine".
Blessings,
James.
I agree with you, it is essential in this globalizing world nowadays to adopt a better cultural relativist approach instead of using this ethnocentric ''narrow minded'' kind of view that many people of this ''modern civilization'' tend to have. As for the ''journeys''; they're are more than one trail going up to the top of a mountain; some might prefer a specific trail but others might use another one. This do not mean that your trail is ''better'' than mine since we will both see each other at the top. It's a cheezy and an old regurgitated metaphor but it represent this kind of approach somehow....
Take care,
Dear James,
You wrote:
QuoteI wonder if part of the beauty of these ancient texts is that they can mean different things to different people?
Absolutely! And to concretize these texts into
one interpretation is to cheat the writings of their spiritual efficacy, as well as to cheat the reader out of the opportunity to receive whatever subjective message could have been available.
We are speaking here specifically of the bible, but there is also very beautiful poetry in the Qu'ran and the many other religious texts we have inherited. And then there is also Shakespeare and Goethe, Milton and Wallace Stevens, et al, giants of the written word...even the 'cry in your beer' songwriters that we have today can touch the deepest part of our hearts and minds...
Written and spoken communication, whether in plain texts, metaphorical texts, symbols, poetry or song, our voices, our eyes and our ability to reason are all crucial communication tools, whether between each of us here, or between us and the divine. That is the way that it is with being human...and if the divine desires communication with us, believe me, they will use whatever tools they have at hand!
Peace,
Beth
Quote from: James S
As long as we don't become so overly absorbed in one world that we close ourselves off the other, there is a very useful balance to be found between the two.
...such as spending a few hours in meditation with the spirits in the local forest, then coming home to my entertainment system, arming myself with a plasma rifle, rocket launcher and lots of grenades, and blowing the heads off Covenant forces in Halo 2.
Most satisfying! :wink:
Blessings,
James.
i love your post James. What you say really makes sense, although many man object to your point of view. Technology I guess is a tool for us to use, to help connect to what we need.
oh! if you play online add me to your friend list:
shedt V is my gamertag.
I really love also to read Gandalf's post, learning the history of things is really great. I love also how you say that you can find spiritual truths in the bible more so now. very cool indeed!
Quote from: Beth
I could of course go on and on, but I will finish up by pointing out another very important aspect of this same root:
Shem or the adverb 'there' is also the exact same word as the regular noun "name." So...
shemi may mean "heaven" and/or "sky", but ...
shemi also means "My Name."
Just some points to ponder...
Peace,
Beth
woah thats wonderful, it makes me think that maybe they ment heaven is us, or from within us... at least that is what first jumps to my mind :)
Dear Shedt,
You wrote:
Quotewoah thats wonderful, it makes me think that maybe they ment heaven is us, or from within us... at least that is what first jumps to my mind
:D yes, it is pretty amazing stuff when you find out more about these ancient languages and then think about the textual possibilites:
"In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth..."Gen 1:1
In the actual scripture it reads in the plural as
heavens, or
skies or even as
the names. All of these options are correct meanings of the word and each are worthy of consideration...
Peace, :)
Beth
The Quran recounts several miracles associated with Jesus infancy. How could one ever know whether any of these are true? If they lacked historical precedent in early Christian tradtion, the Muslim might reply that Allah is independent of man's tradition. Being all-knowing, Allah knows what really happened. But in fact, the Jesus stories in the Quran often find striking parallels with Christian tradition. The parallels to these miracle stories are taken from universally discredited Christian infancy Gospels variously composed from the late 2nd to the 5th century CE. Far from being revealed by Allah or Gabriel, they are sheer fiction. Their use by Muhammad is just another indicator that his revelation is bogus.
Berserk,
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same legends, even if they interpret them a bit differently.
To a certain extent, Christianity was built in response to Judaism even though it took more than three centuries to take its hold. By the time Islam came on the scene, Christianity had very firmly absconded Judaism in its own way, and the Islamic religion was built in response to them both. There were, without doubt, heavy political influences behind the success of them all.
Each of these religions find their roots in the bible, one way or another; just as the Christians have the New Testament to suppliment the Old Testament, the Muslims have the Quran to suppliment both the Old and New Testaments. They are all, however, of one root: Abraham being the father of them all, his second son Isaac for Judaism and Christianity, and his first son Ishmael for Islam. This is one of the reasons why the Islamic world and Israel continue to fight over the City of Jerusalem and the land that surrounds it: each claim that God 'gave it' to them alone. The early Christian Crusades were all about re-claiming Jerusalem from the Moors (the early Muslims) but it was not until the post-WWII era of the late 1940's, that Israel, with the help of the United States, became a Jewish state in its own right to be governed as such.
An additional point that may help clarify, is that Judaism supposedly claimed that the 'prophets' ceased with the close of their scriptures. The Christians came along making John the Baptist a prophet, and Jesus as the Messiah. Islam did not acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, but did acknowledge him as a Prophet. Then Islam did the same as Judaism and claimed that the 'prophets ceased' with Mohammud.
This is all very simply put, for there is always a lot more that needs to be considered such as the long-held possession of the land now known as Israel, but in the end this is basically what has happened.
Peace,
Beth
Beth,
I taught comparative religion in a university for 12 years. Your vague statements about the 3 faiths sharing the same traditions is only true in a very general way. To call Old and New Testament traditions legendary only begs the question and betrays your bias. In fact, many of Jesus' resurrection appearances can be securely linked with eyewitness testimony through Paul. The Gospel of Mark and the Q sayings source can also be linked through Papias with eyewitness testimony despite redactional influences. My point is that there is no disagreement, liberal or conservative, about the historical veracity of the infancy Gospels that underlie the Koran and therefore no question about whether they derive from Allah. I can demonstrate this in detail if you wish.
Berserk,
You cannot convince me that any of the events in the Bible actually occured; I know better than that.
If you taught comparative religion for 12 years with the assumption that the biblical narratives were historical and not a collection of legends and fictional creativity, then you did not teach a true "comparative religions" course. What you taught was a course that compared all other religions with Christianity which is not a true comparison at all.
A true 'comparative religion' class would compare the way in which each religion grew into what it eventually became, including its own choice of legends, its own canon of writings (or oral tradition), any hierarchy that may have been implimented, whether there were exoteric rituals, etc., and how the religions managed to survive as long as they did, i.e., through political, civil and territorial control.
All you are doing is trying to 'compare' fiction with history, if you are saying that the events of the bible actually occurred, and that Berserk, is not being a responsible teacher at all.
Peace,
Beth
Beth,
Again, you are making absurd assumptions about someone you do not know. I have a PhD from Harvard and am schooled in the History of Religions approach to this phenomenon (Wilfred Cantwell Smith, etc.). I merely object to your simple-minded use of the term "legend". True, the Bible contains some legends. But in each case, you must use historical-critical tools to assess the provenance of each tradition. Some are easier to link with historical evidence than others. But no scholar, and I do mean no scholar, would credit the historical value of the very late Infancy Gospels on which Muhammad relies in his Jesus' traditions. Would you like me to outline the history of the early oral tradition about Jesus' sayings and deeds? You are apparently unaware of biblical text criticism and the basics of canoncial formation.
In any case, you again miss the point. You can embrace or dismiss Judaism or Christianity as you choose. The point of my original post was that Muhammad's materlal about Jesus is substantially derived from discredited apocryphal material and therefore not from Allah or any other supernatural agency.
Berserk
Berserk,
You say:
QuoteI merely object to your simple-minded use of the term "legend". True, the Bible contains some legends.
Actually, it
is quite simple Berserk: the Bible is a collection of legends and other creative storytelling devices. There is no historical veracity at all; there are no 'eyewitnesses' to
anything. Period.
To make sure you understand what I am saying, 'Christianity' as an established religion definately has a historical tradition, but the events of the Bible
do not. Christianity
does not =The Bible.
If all you were trying to say is that the infancy gospels were fiction, then why didn't you just simply say that? For in this we definately agree. But other than that, and with everything else you state, I am not really sure why we need to continue with this debate; as scholars, we just disagree.
Beth
p.s. This is not an academic forum Berserk. Waving your credentials does not impress people as much as you might think. I am certainly not impressed by your boasting; the appeal to your own authority is not only logically fallacious, but also quite arrogant. I try very hard to make my posts as 'simple' as possible so that those who have not had the benefit of studying religion academically can benefit from the knowledge that I have obtained. But I would
never imply that any of these seekers are 'simple-minded' in the way in which you appear to have been addressing me.
Beth,
Let me try :wink: Sorry to dissect a post directed at you
Berserk,
Quote from: BerserkI have a PhD from Harvard and am schooled in the History of Religions approach to this phenomenon (Wilfred Cantwell Smith, etc.).
I call this 'Degree Waving' or downtalking. Why would you talk down to anyone like this?
QuoteI merely object to your simple-minded use of the term "legend".
Are you sure this is the only thing you object to?
QuoteTrue, the Bible contains some legends. But in each case, you must use historical-critical tools to assess the provenance of each tradition. Some are easier to link with historical evidence than others. But no scholar, and I do mean no scholar, would credit the historical value of the very late Infancy Gospels on which Muhammad relies in his Jesus' traditions. Would you like me to outline the history of the early oral tradition about Jesus' sayings and deeds? You are apparently unaware of biblical text criticism and the basics of canoncial formation.
Isn't comparative religion about comparing religions with minimal bias? Can you explain to us non-degree holders why you explicitly base your classes on a Christian (or possibly Catholic) slant?
QuoteIn any case, you again miss the point. You can embrace or dismiss Judaism or Christianity as you choose. The point of my original post was that Muhammad's materlal about Jesus is substantially derived from discredited apocryphal material and therefore not from Allah or any other supernatural agency.
I respect you and your diligence in coming to this theory, but...
...to me it would be impossible for you to convince me that the Bible and the people in it are as credible as a textbook in a history class. I bet you anything I would make it through your class, but I would be hard pressed to figure out who would end up changed more (you or I) when class was over.
and finally;
QuoteAgain, you are making absurd assumptions about someone you do not know.
We don't know you personally, but we know who you are trying to be. You are not my God, Dr Berserk. You have no power over us except what you are given by God as a human. We all make mistakes, including yourself. I believe your biggest mistake is by turning the Bible into a serious document meant for historical accuracy. Wouldn't it be much better if it was used as a book of morals to teach others that it is better to love than to hate no matter what? Wouldn't it be better if we all strived to be the image portrayed by Jesus? Wouldn't it be better if everyone gave and expected nothing in return? I also did not notice anywhere where Beth was making assumptions about you.
As a last request, what can I provide to you of myself? Would you like me to accept everything you say blindly as truth and to metaphorically kiss your feet? I already have, because I believe there is much good in you, despite what everyone else says about you. I want to know how you truly believe, so please try harder to convey it.
Thanks.
By the way;
Quote from: BerserkI taught comparative religion in a university for 12 years. Your vague statements about the 3 faiths sharing the same traditions is only true in a very general way. To call Old and New Testament traditions legendary only begs the question and betrays your bias. In fact, many of Jesus' resurrection appearances can be securely linked with eyewitness testimony through Paul. The Gospel of Mark and the Q sayings source can also be linked through Papias with eyewitness testimony despite redactional influences. My point is that there is no disagreement, liberal or conservative, about the historical veracity of the infancy Gospels that underlie the Koran and therefore no question about whether they derive from Allah. I can demonstrate this in detail if you wish.
Can I speak with your eyewitnesses please? Testimony doesn't count! I must speak with them!
Beth patronized me like I was an ignorant child. So I merely let her know that my training is as good or better then hers. Posters on this site raise questions as if they had a broom rammed up their butts. I can address issues with excruciating courtesy if you can demonstrate you are house-broken with at least a modicum of historical literacy. No wonder you drove Robert Bruce away from this site!
Ybom says, "[Historical] Testimonies don't count. I must speak to eyewitnesses." Duh, so let me get this straight. You think that history is bogus discipline because its sources are mostly deceased and you can no longer speak to eyewitnesses?
Berserk,
I will not have a p***ing contest with you, or anyone for that matter. The quality of one's education is not in the institution attended, or the degrees earned, but rather, in the quality of the work of the scholar.
I did not answer you like I was speaking to a child (although that may well have been the case seeing how you are reacting) but rather, when someone posts to this forum I do not know what their educational background is, nor would that change the way that I would respond.
As I said, this is not an academic forum. I do not use academic language--on purpose--nor do I use my education to set myself up as an 'adult' that speaks down to a 'child'.
As a moderator of this forum, I would normally PM you first, but since you do not seem to mind engaging me publically, here is your warning: be careful of the content of your posts. I am specifically referring to your most recent one:
QuotePosters on this site raise questions as if they had a broom rammed up their butts
Now, since you have responded like a child, I will moderate accordingly: be a good boy Berserk and we will continue to let you post to this forum. If not, then disciplinary action will have to be taken.
Beth
The notion that the bible is all fiction is as interpretative as the one who says that the bible is entirely historical. What is the real approach? Good question! I studied in cultural anthropology and anthropologists can not even get the same results with the study of the same cultures with the same informants (this is done in the present time!). This made one really great realization that both historians and anthropologists came with just recently: it is highly interpretative. And if we deal with analyzing past cultures that dates back 2000 years ago, you have to deal with the notion that your theories are even more interpretative folks..... And now if you deal with a legends which is a metaphor that relates to ''an image'' and this imagery can mean a thousand words.... Well, you have thousands of different interpretations of course. Now wheter it is true or not is still as interpretative (also depending on the type of analysis you are doing and the hypothesis you might have). To be open to different possibilities is essential....
As a personal opinion, I do not think the bible is entirely a fictious work, why use so many geographical regions that can be clearly identified with only fictious characters? This is not logical it seems. But I do not know how true or what may have happened; again, like I've said, it is open to many interpretations!! :D
Take care,
Quote from: patapoufAs a personal opinion, I do not think the bible is entirely a fictious work, why use so many geographical regions that can be clearly identified with only fictious characters? This is not logical it seems. But I do not know how true or what may have happened; again, like I've said, it is open to many interpretations!! :D
I agree with everything up to this point, however, this paragraph raised a red flag. I will briefly state an example based on the ficticious works of one Piers Anthony. He created a world in a series of his books called "Xanth" as a play on his name. Strangely, the region of Xanth is shaped exactly like the state of Florida, which just happens to be his home.
Obviously this work is ficticious, but why would he create a world in the shape of something real? Would it appeal to some of his readers if they could visualize something known to them as a waypoint into his world? Possibly.
What I'm getting at is I believe one to be naive to dismiss the idea of the Bible being a conspiracy to control a large mass of people through fear and self-opression. I hope this theory is bogus and I like to disbelieve it, but totally avoiding it is just ignorant. Again, I would never ask anyone to accept it simply due to the sheer negativity of it, but I would whole heartedly ask everyone to realize that there is this big risk in supporting it.
Personally, I take a more Agnostic approach to religion. I believe that society in its infinite wisdom has turned me into a lowly human, who doesn't understand the full concept of what is considered God. I put the blame also squarely on my own shoulders because I am afraid to take specific risks due to certain road blocks that society imposes on me. I am afraid to even make certain wise choices because it most likely will involve death. But even with all of this blockage, I think I have made a very wise descision on focusing on the limits of such a faith, which are very complex and thought inducing.
Quote from: patapouf
As a personal opinion, I do not think the bible is entirely a fictious work, why use so many geographical regions that can be clearly identified with only fictious characters? This is not logical it seems. But I do not know how true or what may have happened; again, like I've said, it is open to many interpretations!! :D
That does make sense, although when you look at the writings of authors like Michael Crichton or Dan Brown, or even authors like Anne McCaffrey (who uses some of the world's top astronomers and astrophysicists as technical consultants), they use a good deal of well researched information as vehicles for their fiction. I tend to look upon it as the mark of a good author. Gets you in to the story better when there's some believable aspect to it.
Beserk,
Academic credential does not indicate the measure of one's wisdom.
Let your words be your credentials.
Thanks,
James.
[edit]
P.S.
Jeez Ybom, Gotta be quick around here! Patapouf is going to feel like we're ganging up on him now! :)
James,
Yes I know lol. Isn't it strange how we essentially said the same thing in two completely different ways though?
Patapouf,
I promise we're not trying to gang up on you! You made a good point about this being open to many interpretations, but you really did drop your defenses to anyone who reads fictional works based on real places.
Quote from: James SQuote from: patapouf
[edit]
P.S.
Jeez Ybom, Gotta be quick around here! Patapouf is going to feel like we're ganging up on him now! :)
:D You ''interpreted'' how I would possibly react!! But it is totally the opposite James! Do not worry.... I do not feel like being attacked or anything. This is an argumentative discussion, if you can say things that contradict what I'm saying, you better do it! Thanks for letting me know that I might wrongly interpret what you said here. But it did not even come close to my mind and I was surprised of your reactions. Good point you made about Dan Brown and there are probably other examples also (of course, how many movies can we see using this approach!). My argumentative approach was with the ''interpretative perspective''. I do not know shlit about what happened during those days and only gave my opinion on the subject (what I thought basically), and, as you could see, was extremely vague. But I do not think that the bible was made to be an entertainment read like Dan Brown's, I do not think that writing such complicated novel was being done like we do nowadays( this is an opinion again, feel free to say what you think on it!!). The problem is that it is extremely hard to conclude for ''how true'' the bible is since there is so many possibilities.... Anyway, feel free to argument on the subject! And please both Beth and Berserck should continue a constructive argumentation, it might be interesting since they studied in the same type of discipline (it seems....).
Take care,
Hey all!
Yes, Patapouf, you are absolutely correct to say that "interpretation" is virtually everything when it comes to experiencing the world that we live in. Whether it be initimate, social, political or religious, we each have the ability to 'interpret' reality a little differently.
While we agree on many things, e.g., the weather, the solidity of matter, the sensations of cold and hot, etc., many, many things are open to interpretation. For example: "What did he mean by that statement?" "Was he kidding, or was he serious?" "Is she being honest with me, or is she secretly betraying my trust?" Oftentimes we jump to conclusions, not based upon a 'shared reality' but one that is created in our own minds. Also, even if "she" was initially betraying "him" as soon as she begins to be honest with him again, the 'reality' of the situation changes. And this is the life that we all lead: 'reality' is in constant motion, and it is ultimately up to each individual to make of it what we will.
Now, as for Berserk and myself, yes, I am sure that we have studied many of the same topics, but we have each come away from that same material with different 'interpretations' of the reality of these ancient situations. But, I must admit that I have access to research that Berserk has never seen, so I now have an unfair advantage. But...I also came to the same conclusion through my own reasoning ability many years ago. This new research only confirmed what I truly thought was the case.
Peace,
Beth
[quote="Ybom] What I'm getting at is I believe one to be naive to dismiss the idea of the Bible being a conspiracy to control a large mass of people through fear and self-oppression. I hope this theory is bogus and I like to disbelieve it, but totally avoiding it is just ignorant. Again, I would never ask anyone to accept it simply due to the sheer negativity of it, but I would whole heartedly ask everyone to realize that there is this big risk in supporting it.
[/quote]
I also encountered some of these perspective in relation with the conspiracy theories (one example of it is David Icke) and, as a matter of fact, it is a possibility. I do believe that the Christian religion as been used as repressive tool but I do not necessarily think that it was entirely conceptualized to primarily use it in such a way; maybe it was borrowed and shaped by different individuals.... This is hard to tell
[quote="Ybom]
Patapouf,
I promise we're not trying to gang up on you! You made a good point about this being open to many interpretations, but you really did drop your defenses to anyone who reads fictional works based on real places.
[/quote]
When I first read I laughed because I realized my mistake. I mostly associate legends with many long lasting or ''old'' cultures that we can find around the world. Many of them (ex: Indians) use legends to remind them of many important cultural notions they want to pass on to the next generations. Contrary to the fictious kind of story that our mother or father used to read to us before we went to sleep, many of those legends contains such important cultural concepts that they want to pass on and to recite it into such a metaphorical way is the best way to remember it and ''spread the word''. Some anthropologists will attempt to demystify it because they do or might contain some historical events that happened and affected this particular culture some times ago and it also contains many relevant cultural information. But the informants will also have different views on what it means, how it happened, etc. Usually, legends can be told and not only read.
Again, what or how the bible has been conceptualized; I don't have a clue and I don't want to get lost too much on all those theories.... I assume that it was written in such a similar fashion but this is a personal hypothesis here but I can not really say if it is the case of course and I know that there are many possible scenarios. The topic is on the Q'ran....
Oops. :?
Take care,
Actually the topic was more aligned at modern miracles compared to verses in the Qu'ran, and then at some point just after, someone did nearly identical with the Bible.
Now, given that both of these probably have an additional line (many places on the web) "this cannot be done with any other religious book" just pushes the theory that there are people out there trying to opress other viewpoints from their readers. I also reread my post, and I used a very bad term within it. Conspiracy. Maybe I should've seeked a more desireable phrase.
Another point I will bring up. I recently suggested a religion center for the church my parents go to. They considered it and still nothing has popped up. It's like they took my really good suggestion and swept it under the carpet as quietly as possible trying to avoid crushing anyone's toes in the process.
Hey all,
Has anyone considered that 'miracles' such as those in the Bible and even in the Quran are metaphorical? For example, in the NT we read of certain 'healings' such as 'making the blind see', and 'making the lame walk'. These particular narrative stories could also be read as parables, in that, 'opening ones spiritual eyes' is the cessation of 'spiritual blindness' and likewise, 'healing ones physical walk through life' is helping them to begin to 'walk their spiritual path' -- "Pick up your pallet and sin no more."
I thought about this possibility many years ago and long before I studied these texts academically. There are of course other options but, these are the most commonly quoted. Even the initial post that got this thread started is showing where the Quranic verses are metaphorical or symbolic of later scientific discoveries.
Both of these books are amazing canons of literature. It is too bad that people want to make them so much more than that by risking 'Reason' to justify them as their God's holy writ--and to use them to 'misuse' their own power (yes, as a tool of prejudice, intolerance, oppression and sometimes even as a 'weapon of mass destruction'.)
Peace,
Beth
Quote from: BethHey all,
Has anyone considered that 'miracles' such as those in the Bible and even in the Quran are metaphorical? For example, in the NT we read of certain 'healings' such as 'making the blind see', and 'making the lame walk'. These particular narrative stories could also be read as parables, in that, 'opening ones spiritual eyes' is the cessation of 'spiritual blindness' and likewise, 'healing ones physical walk through life' is helping them to begin to 'walk their spiritual path' -- "Pick up your pallet and sin no more."
I thought about this possibility many years ago and long before I studied these texts academically. There are of course other options but, these are the most commonly quoted. Even the initial post that got this thread started is showing where the Quranic verses are metaphorical or symbolic of later scientific discoveries.
Both of these books are amazing canons of literature. It is too bad that people want to make them so much more than that by risking 'Reason' to justify them as their God's holy writ--and to use them to 'misuse' their own power (yes, as a tool of prejudice, intolerance, oppression and sometimes even as a 'weapon of mass destruction'.)
Peace,
Beth
Yeah this is also a logical explanation, the problem is that some people observe miracles performed today so they also associate the notion that probably such a man could do it also in the past. We see nowadays people that seems to heal like Jesus was doing, is it a fraud? good question.... (but rarely we will see someone walk on water of course). I encountered in another forum someone talking about this dude that was an extremely powerful healer. Anyway.... Take a look at this and tell me what ya think folks.... It's an interesting story.
John of God (http://www.johnofgod.com/article.htm)
Take care,
Patapouf,
I have no doubt that people have the ability to heal themselves as well as others; I have healed myself enough times to know this to be the case (although menapause is proving to be a real booger! :shock: :x :cry: :lol: 8) )
As far as "Jesus" is concerned, that is part of the beauty of the narrative nature of the bible, that it can relate a 'parable' or 'story' that illustrates 'what reality can be for everyone' through a story that relates that truth for only one.
In other words, 'opening one's spiritual eyes' and 'helping one to walk a spiritual path' is the beginning of helping one to learn that 'phyiscal healing' can come from their own hands, whether it be to heal themselves or to heal others.
The problem with believing that only one person -- or only a precious few -- can do these 'miraculous things' only serves to separate us from the very spiritual awareness that we all need (at least I presume we all need it.)
This John guy may well be able to do these things, but as the biblical narrative states: "These things I do you can do also---and much, much more!"
I think everyone should be their own Savior...
Peace,
Beth
Quote from: Beth
The problem with believing that only one person -- or only a precious few -- can do these 'miraculous things' only serves to separate us from the very spiritual awareness that we all need (at least I presume we all need it.)
This John guy may well be able to do these things, but as the biblical narrative states: "These things I do you can do also---and much, much more!"
I think everyone should be their own Savior...
Peace,
Beth
I agree 100% with you on that principle; I do not think Jesus's goal is to make such a hierarchical type of view of every humans on the planet. Some people that possess nothing as ''psychic talents'' whatsoever might accomplish much more than someone who might possess some but do not have the compassionate heart that goes with it. A gifted psychic may not be more ''evolved'' of course since many can do bad things with it (''Neg'' can be some kind of example that might fit this criteria....). As living in a human body, being Jesus or anybody else, we are all at the same ''level'' somehow because we all have to go to the bathroom and wipe our azz after.... Jesus's approach of the resurrection principle is and in many other aspects also such as your quotation ''these things I do you can do also---and much, much more!" (this is my personal opinion here) mostly want to tell us that there is much more to what we may experience with our physical body; to come back after being crucified is a really good example of course. This means there is more than this physical body. And beware to some that use the two extremist principles mix together (scientific materialism and biblical literalism) and state that when it is written in the bible that we will be ''resurrected'' at the end of days it means that ''science'' will now be able to ''resurrect'' us (of course they associate this process with cloning....). As a matter of fact, cloning may be one totally logical type of association but it is so contradictory with the rest of the bible and so many other principle in relation with spirituality. Anyway.... I hope that people will not start to make this kind of association too much in the future.... :roll:
Take care,
Quote from: BerserkThe parallels to these miracle stories are taken from universally discredited Christian infancy Gospels variously composed from the late 2nd to the 5th century CE. Far from being revealed by Allah or Gabriel, they are sheer fiction. Their use by Muhammad is just another indicator that his revelation is bogus.
According to this Jesus bloke in the Gospel of Mark:
"Why does this generation demand a sign? I assure you: No sign will be given to this generation!"
he did no signs. Therefore, the signs, miracles and wonders he finds himself surrounded by in the gospels are sheer fiction. I notice Paul never mentions them in his epistles, which btw are dated earlier than the miracle filled gospels. There use by 'Mark' and other gospel writers is just another indicator that their revelation is bogus.
Perhaps Mark and Muhammad should arm wrestle and settle this dispute.
cheers,
cho
"Both of these books are amazing canons of literature."
Yes, I'll definitely go along with that.
Interstingly, during my time spent in the christian church, I couldn't see past the dogmas and prejudices against other religious texts. I too was caught up by the interpretations of literal meanings.
Recently though, I've spent much time with a friend looking through copies of both the Bible and the Qur'an, and also comparing these with Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations With God series.
It was was the Conversations With God series that really helped me to put the pieces together into something that made sense. This series are not religious books in any way shape or form. They are purely spiritual dialogues written by someone who doesn't even try to push the point that it IS actually God he's speaking with, just a higher level of consciousness that is very good at putting things into perspectives that we often struggle to see.
The perspectives of CWG presented a different way of looking at the bible. Not literally, but metaphorically, just as Beth has been trying to point out all along. Both the Bible and Qur'an were written using the language of the time to present spiritual concepts on varying levels that made more sense the more you were able to incorporate their meaning into your life. I would even go as far as to say they were (originally) inspired by God - that is, the wisdom attained by being connected with the higher consciousness that is our spirit beings.
Throughout history, people who have made this higher connection and attained this wisdom have been sharing it wisdom with others. The commonalities between all spiritual texts can be so plainly seen once the "literal" wrappings are taken off and we look at the messages that were meant to be presented.
What is unfortunate is the large number of "swine", the spiritually unuware, that have had these pearls cast before them, and choose only to see literal words, and translate them in such ways as to server their own purposes.
Blessings,
James.
sorry if this has been talked about before..but what are your guys take on Muhammad's visit to the 7 heavens/planes...am I the only one making all the out of body connections
JKK,
No, you are not the only one to make these connections!! However, few people really want to 'see' that what is at the base of most 'religion' is the basic search for God/Higher Power/Higher Self/Universal Understanding. The same 'base' of what most projectors are searching for as well.
Well, that is not entirely true. Let me clarify. "Religion" in and of itself is 'a medium' through which people 'feel connected to god'. "Religion proper", that is, the heirarchies, the dogmas, prejudices, etc., are actually very far removed from being what some people need most out of religion.
One aspect provides a medium to seek out into the universe (mysticism), the other aspect (church/synagogue/mosque) is almost its polar opposite: it keeps people 'very well stuck' and 'very much controlled' here on this plane. Interesting dichotomy huh?
In western religion, which has a Greco-Roman base, Judaism, Chrisitianity and Islam all share the same literary roots, as well as much the same 'mystical tradition' with significant similarities in the way it is discussed. The 'seven heavens' are found in Judaism through Merkabah Mysticism, and in 2Corinthians chapter 12, you can read about one of these heavens in the New Testament. According to the literature, Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, Paul and Mohammed all had ecstatic (mystical) experiences.
These mystery traditions, while based within each of their respective exoteric religions, probably stayed somewhat intimate for many centuries passing the esoteric knowledge down through generations of initiates, even as the exoteric religions themselves grew more distinct (and for the most part bitter rivals.)
If you are interested in the 7 heavens, then I encourage you to check further into Sufism, into the earlier Merkabah Mysticism (NOT the vehicle thingy that is supposedly available today that will 'take you there'---you 'cannot build a Merkabah!' Nor do I think a 'merkabah' to be some energy field that surrounds your body. I do not care what anyone says!)
I believe these writings are being 'descriptive' of what it is like for some people when they travel through the astral, or at least, as esoteric literature, it provides 'key words/ideas' that work within your subconscious to create a certain goal and astral backdrop that can be anchored within your own religious tradition. But to expect these texts to be 'prescriptive' of what you 'will' or 'should' experience is really just setting yourself up for possible disappointment. Let your experience be your own, and do not let anything or anyone dictate what that should be!
Times are also changing: some people want 'science' to do what 'mysticism' has done in the past, and perhaps that will be the way of it in the future. I think it matters not in the longrun, for the astral is the astral and I think that most of us would agree that there is a lot that we do not know about the universe!
But check it out for yourself! Investigate whatever 'turns you on' (so to speak!) Please feel free to share with AP members whatever you end up experiencing!
Peace, (and happy travels!)
Beth
In my previous life things were more vivid than now.
In this previous life the Qur'an was called the Bible and the Bible was called the Qur'an.
And you are right, the Qur'an had the best miracles.
Quote from: genepIn my previous life things were more vivid than now.
In this previous life the Qur'an was called the Bible and the Bible was called the Qur'an. And you are right, the Qur'an had the best miracles.
Along with the Bible? I like your take on this, since logic has only partial place in the spiritual realm.
Quote from: Ybom
Along with the Bible? I like your take on this, since logic has only partial place in the spiritual realm.
If language did not shackle us to this material world we would be playing in the spiritual heavens we need to be gods... and the material world would, at best, be in the background.