Does God/Jesus Exist?

[Gandalf]

I guess from reading both perspectives of christianity as put forward by Mustardseed and Exothen (although you both agree on much as well!), that i feel that Exothen's vision of god does not come across as the kind of god that i would accept as being a god of unconditional love and forgiveness, which is what he is promoted as.. Exothen definately comes from the fear based perspective, even although he would deny this i think.. but as soon as you have a god rejecting people who have sinned for ever, punishing people, which he does.. the doctrine of atonement reflects this, then i get turned off.

There are many other theological interpretations of christianity's central theme ie  Jesus' sacrifice of himself for humanity, than the vicarious atonement theology.

Try this:
god incarnated himself as Jesus in order to preach against civilisations drug of choice ie violence (among other things), the drug of choice of the roman empire and unfortunatly is just as relevant in our world today as it was then. God and civilisation were then set on a collision course..
God sacrificied himself (though jesus) as a warning to humanity ie to say: 'look.. when i became incarnate you killed me.. think what you will do to each other'. A message as relevant now as it was then.

The atonement of sin idea just makes god out to be vengeful which i dont accept.

Just my take on it..
Start with the theology of vicarious atonement and you end up with the film of Mel Gibson.

Douglas

[Telos]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Mustardseed]

Dear Exothen
I have been watching this topic and have asked you to reply to my questions. I am very open to you and your insight but you have not had time to answer yet though I eve sent you PMs. consider your own statements from another thread

Exothen:  Nothing like picking and choosing what one wants to believe with no regard as to whether it is true or not. That is a very dangerous approach.

Couldn't agree more

Love to hear from you

Regards Mustardseed

[Palehorse]

Since I am a student of economics, I couldn't help but notice howJesus' parable relied on the principle of "opportunity cost," the costof forgoing an opportunity. Or, in other words, it's the cost of doing nothing with what you're given. In trade theory, economies are most efficient and most prosperous when everyone minimizes their opportunitycost. Since resources would be distributed efficiently, everyone wouldbe rich.

Your input from your background in economics is awesome, and really serves to make the point that we all have something unique to share about the divine from our diverse perspectives and various disciplines.  Excellent stuff, that... especially since I'm so mathematically challenged that I'd never be able to see it that way on my own.

But to this I would say that the principle of opportunity cost doesn't necessarily have to refer to material assets.  It could also refer to the "currency" of the universe -- experiences and that which is gained from having them.  If no one ever wasted an opportunity to learn and grow, just think how rich all of us would be in the spiritual sense as a result.  So, I don't think your interpretation is incompatible with my own thoughts on exactly what kind of wealth Jesus is indicating here.  As for your comments about the rich man who hordes his wealth, I would liken it to the folks who claim to have a monopoly on truth... and have thus forfeited any opportunity to grow or contribute to the greater reality.

Regarding Paul... the more I read the New Testament, the more itseems like the books are in order of importance. I'm already hesitantabout Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John putting words into God's mouth, much less a lunatic convert from Tarsus

Hah!  IMO this is especially true considering the books that were traditionally supposed to have been written by Paul, but... weren't.  Such is why I'm no fan of biblical inerrancy though.  While I believe these people to be generally authoritative considering their firsthand (or secondhand, as the case may be) knowledge of Christ, I still consider them to be subject to the same critical analysis as anything else.  As for Paul, in a strange sort of way, his wackiness is a point in his favor for me.  Meaning: if God can accomplish such things with the self-proclaimed "worst of sinners," then maybe there's hope for me after all.  

As for that lil graphic you made, that made my day.  I like what you did with my icon, too... I had to shrink the original down to the point where all the details get mushed together to use it here, but I may just have to crop and upload yours, lol.

Start with the theology of vicarious atonement and you end up with the film of Mel Gibson.

...And I think you might have to make another one.  Gandalf shoots, he scores.  

[Mustardseed]

Dear Exothen

I just wanted to let you know that I am still waiting for your reply. I noticed that you have been making other posts but have missed my previous question and since it questions something very central in your (and my own) belief system, I am in two minds. I am not assuming that you are avoiding the question, but most likely have not noticed it, but for the sake of those who read your comments on so many other subjects concerning their own faith, it might be interesting to hear your comment on your own.

As you probably realize you are becoming a bit of a "expert" in your particular field of fundamental Christianity, though you most likely do not think of yourself this way. It seems that a lot of people have questions that you have so far answered well, showing the scriptual context and doctrinal explanations (though it seems evident they do not agree with you) So all that taken into considerations, I am still very curious about your answer and look forward to hearing your input on said matter.

Regards Mustardseed

[Telos]

Palehorse, that was great! I can't say I disagree with anything. I'm glad we had a chance to have this discussion.

[Palehorse]

I can't say I disagree with anything. I'm glad we had a chance to have this discussion.

Me too, friend.  

[french_hustler]

How about you read the Bible and then you'll be able to decide for sure if you believe in them or not.

[Mustardseed]

Dear FH
I am not sure if you address me or someone in particular on the thread but for my own part I have actually read the Bible a lot, possibly more than most. I am not sure what you are trying to infer in your post could you be a Little more clear.

Regards Mustardseed