The Holy Spirit will lift the limit of sin and atrocities that are allowed in the apocalypse. The evil in the hearts of men will be able to manifest itself fully. Those that are not in the protection of the Spirit will give in too these true natures.
That is my understanding of the apocalypse.
The band tool stopped producing albums, because according to their universal beliefs, the world is going to end at the comming of the new year. The ancient Mayan civilization predicted a great change in the earths magnetic field, and alignment in the galaxy, about 3000 years ago, their calender ran from roughly early/mid 3000bc to 2012 21st of December, when a cycle of time was supposed to end. Nostradamus (spelling?) prophecised that the world would end in 1999, correct me if im wrong. There are many different beliefs to the end of days.
or you know, nothing could happen for about.. 100,000,000,000,000,000 years and all matter in the universe would distablize, following the destabilization of gravity another 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 years later or so.
I always think that this strange pre-occupation with 'end time scenarios' is a purely american obsession, and doesnt seem to be of great interest here in Europe.
I think here in Europe christian apocalyptic mythology, is seen as just that..mythology. Also, christianity is seen in more general terms as just one of many religious systems along with other philosophies.
However, it seems that in the US, many people seem to assume that judgement day etc is fact. I assume that this is due to the fact that the majority of the population are only exposed to one belief system...christianity, and many take everything in the bible as written in stone. The end of the world scenarios are assumed to be an event which WILL happen.
I agree however, that other systems have 'end time scenarios' but they are often quite different from the horrific vision of christian mythology. The Mayan system for example, sees more of a shift in awareness, not widespread destruction like christians do.
Also, I take issue with those christian writers who attempt to prove that the end times are now (as beth says, EVERY succeeding generation thinks IT is in the end times!), justifying this by stating that there are more wars now than in the past. In fact, if you check your history.. world history, you'll find that wars are just as common now as they always were, only now the weapons are bigger. However, I think humanity passed the biggest test of its history in the 20th century.. the nuke test, and we made it.
The cold war was far more serious than any percieved terrorist threat that the US & UK media hype on a constant basis. In fact, most countires in the world have lived with various forms of terrorism for many years.. the difference is that the US has finaly joined the rest of the world, It is hardly 'the end of the world', rather the world just IS.
Regards,
Douglas
Thanks Beth. Well first I just want to mention that my view on this is based on what I have found in the Bible. It is therefore hard to discuss on the basis of logic and so forth. If one does, as I do, take the word of the Bible as the inspired Word of God, what one reads in it has to be taken into account and then there are some major events that are supposed to happen . The main 3 I would say are that Jesus was prophesied to come , he came died for the sins of mankind and rose again and He is to return in what is called "the second Coming". It is this return that is supposed to happen in the last days and becourse Jesus spoke in detail of his return and the events imidiately preceeding it, Christians have tried to figure the timings out ever since that day by looking at the events that happen around us and see if they match.
So....First I would agree with you that every generation seems to have thought that theirs was the last. Certainly it seems obvious that the diciples and Paul specifically thought it was going to happen in their day. Since it has not happened yet, the question remains when.
In Matthew 24 Jesus was asked by the diciples."tell us tell us what shall be the sign og your coming and the end of the world"
Jesus answered:"you will hear of wars and rumours of wars, for nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom and there shall be earthquakes in various places . All these things are the beginning of sorrows"
Now obviously we have had wars plaques and earthquakes for thousands of years however you might be surprised to learn how the severity and frequency of all these things have radically increased. No period in all history has witnessed the escalation of war as the 20th century. The International Red Cross estimates that over 100 million people have been killed in wars since this century began. (statistics from 1997) Prior to 1914 war had never been universal, but in WW1 & 2 global war was waged for the first time. In the second WW 93 million people served in the armed forces on oboth sides. 25 million died. Civilian casualties were unpresedented, in the Soviet Union alone over 20 million died. since WW2 there have been over 150 major wars, and they keep happening, as well as hundreds of smaller conflicts, armed rebellions and revolutions. The death toll of armed conflicts since WW2 is 23million (1997). the UN high commission for refugees reported atrocities and persecutions occured from war to be 50 million in 1995 alone. I could go on and on with tribal terror, ethnic cleansing, which incidentally may be more correct as the word in Greek for nation originally used in this prophecy is "ethnos" more accurately translated a race or tribe. We're talking here about stuff like Stalin's purges, Chinas cultural revolution, Hitler's campaign, Cambodias Killing fields, Bosnia, Rwanda. In this most civilized century, the killing rage extinguished 170 million lives, and we even coined the term genocide. I would say that we could say this has been "fulfilled", what do you think. I researched all these numbers in the world almanac, they seem to be correct. If you are interested I can cover the other prophesies that seem to have been fulfilled as well but I am a bit hesitant as I do not want to get into a "ramming the Bible down your throat "kind of thing.
Regards Mustardseed
There are ofcourse still tens of thousands of nuclear warheads still in operation, not to mention americas hundreds of armed, hidden nuclear submarines patroling every ocean and sea. Russia and America still posses the greatest nuclear presence, but the threat comes from smaller countries like Isreal, engaging in religious wars, or perhaps the 'war' on terrorism, while Imperialistic America gobbles up all the resouce colonies it can for fueling its country and purpose.
There are hundreds of guides on the internet on how to make low and high yield nuclear warheads that fit into suitcases, and when it really comes down to it, its alot easier to get weapons grade plutonium than you think. Almost anyone with half a brain can create a weapon and blow the excrement out of a government building lobby, let alone a city block / city.
Nuclear weapons are still in existance and still in production and trade. How exactly have we 'passed' the nuke test when were not progressing anywhere, infact, things have become much worse.
With the discovery of anti-matter, weapons of mass destruction have only become more horrific. Unknown to most of the public, anti-matter when in contact with matter creates a horrendus release of energy and radiation which makes atom bombs look like firecrackers. Take a trip to the CERN factory in sweden and maybe you can pick up a gram of antimatter for yourself for say, ohh.. about $17 trillion.
Well, if it's not through war, pole shift or rogue comet, the earth will be destroyed in a couple of hundred million years when our sun goes supernova. Can't escape that. In the mean time I'm still planning on taking a trip up north to see my parents at Christmas.[:)]
I heard a sermon back in the early 90s given by a nutbag pentecostal pastor that had done all the research and had all the facts, and according to the bible Jesus was going to come back and the world was going to end in 2000. Guess someone forgot to tell Jesus, or he's been stuck in traffic or something.
So many different interpretations of so many different prophesies, prophesies that I tend to think not even the prophets themselves understood. Just say the Apostle Paul was given a vision of the 20th/21st century. How on earth would he even begin to describe some of what he saw - cars, planes, skyscrapers, computers - things that he would have absolutely no basis of reference to understand them with. So he tries to describe them in terms he understands, and then a couple of thousand years later we try to interpret handed down info that roughly describes what he thought he saw.
Does anybody see any problems with this so far?
Well, that's at least the way I see these end times prophesies.
James.
Our sun dosent have enough mass to supernova, it will only expand into a red giant in about 100 million years, so thats one less thing to worry about. Unless you dont mind being boiled alive by the evaporating oceans.
Nuclear weapons are still in existance and still in production and trade. How exactly have we 'passed' the nuke test when were not progressing anywhere, infact, things have become much worse
-----------------------------
I know what your saying Logic, but I still feel that the biggest nuclear threat and the nearest we came to global nuclear extinction came in the 20th century. Remember the Cuban missile Crisis in 1962? the world was one step away from global nuclear war. People have short memories. If you ask anyone who actually lived through those years, or those from further back who lived through WW2, you will find that any perceived terrorist threat today (which in relative terms to a global nuclear war or WW2 scenario is a quite localised event) tends to pale in significance.
Any localised nuclear event, like Israel going on a bender, as you describe, while still awful to contemplate, does still not equate with a global thermo-nuclear war and resulting extinction or near extinction of humanity aka Cold War Nightmare, such as was a very likely threat during the cold war.
I agree that there is still a threat from localised nuclear threats among others, but it is unlikely IMO that Russia and America will start lobbing ICBMs at eacth other now that the cold war is over.
Douglas
IMHO, I think the greatest threat comes from Isreal, or N Korea. All it takes is one nuke to start WWIII, like in The Sum of all Fears, but with a less happy ending. I cant really say anything about the cuban missle crisis because I was only a figment of some ones imagination at the time. I dont think russia and america would be stupid enough to deliberatly start a war against eachother, but I believe that a war will come from a smaller country.
I'd be interested in what you have to say Mustardseed.
I always love hearing what people think of end times.
The issue with me is that I will first have to find out what the parameters are for the end time, as Jesus told His diciples what they would look like and what would be happening and this is what I read in Matthew 24. Read it and see for yourselves. If you wish I can include it in the message here.
Yes the apocalypse is upon us. Look inside yourself to find the Gnosis or Divine Spark that will see us through to the Lord of Darkness. Reject the book known as the bible for truth in prophecy and in turn realize the true power of magick and individual conquest. If you are allied with the system of religion you will fall beneath the power of the Dark.
Prepare for the apocalypse and find your true self inside.
HHmmm ............Ehhh Ok thanks will do.[;)]Who was that was the Lord of Darkness or what. Oh I forget!!
President Bush (current) wants to use Nuclear weapons in his war on terrorism. These will go off underground, which to the uneducated person sounds ok, because they tell you that all the radiation will be contained in the ground. But many, if not most, people with knowledge in this field disagree and think the fall out will be much worse than having it explode in the air like those in Japan. So no, I do not think that the nuclear test is over. As long as there are nuclear weapons there is always a threat, especially when you have people in power that want to use them.
Jesus said that NO ONE will know the time when this will take place. So why are some many people trying to figure out the time when Jesus said no one will know?
I concur fallnangel. Anyone who has read the Bible should always keep that thought in mind when reading Revelations.
The End of Days?
Hello everyone! – Discussions of nuclear armaments aside, here is MY take on this concept. My interpretation is two-fold: One is personal and one is global.
From my metaphorical reading of the apocalyptic scriptures (canonical and non-canonical,) and then trying to understand their highly cryptic messages, I have thus applied them to my own life. In doing so, I realized that I have experienced "The End of Days" many times in my life. I will explain.
For me, whenever I progress to a new level in my spiritual awareness, my life is forever changed. There is no way that I can go back to seeing the world the way I did previous to the advance. In essence, the moment of epiphany or the period during which I am experiencing a leap of consciousness, marks the "End of Days" as I have known them. These periods are oftentimes very disturbing, full of unanswered new questions, both of which are challenging me to discard old beliefs for new incoming understandings and ways of living. Many of these times have been very painful. Sometimes this was the loss of loved ones that I had been attached to for many years; in relationships that no longer served my spiritual progression. These people have been blood relatives, spouses, and friends. Most often this has come in the form of a parting of ways, which are "emotional and psychological deaths," but sometimes it came through physical death. These losses can be very shattering experiences. But I always found in hindsight that this was always best—for either them or me—and perhaps for both. This same thing also applies to job losses, accidents, physical illnesses, and depressive episodes. In essence, I have lived through many "End of Days" and they are not over yet. This is my personal application of this epic message.
Where do I get this? In the biblical epic, metaphor and allegory are heavily used when writing of the "End of Days." In Hebrew, "Jerusalem" means "City of Peace." As a person, as an individual, I am a "city" unto myself. "My city" is where I live, where I do my spiritual work, and where I must make my way as best as I can. "My city" has psychological "walls" to protect it, "roads" of "knowing" to help me navigate through life, and even an "inner sanctuary" in the center of my city that acts as my temple, a place where I go to make most of my better decisions and reflect upon the future and purpose of my city. "Other people" also inhabit my city. I have "a wife" which acts as my intuition; I have a "husband" which is my "reasoning capability"; I also have "passions" that act as prostitutes, "prison guards" that inhibit my growth, and even "rulers" that govern my attitudes and behaviors. These governors are my "conscience" and they "punish" me when I have strayed. When I am content, I can truly say that I live in a "City of Peace." When I am offered advancement however, "My City of Peace" is attacked, brutally sometimes, and ultimately destroyed. And yes, "death" of "what these people represent" occurs around and within me. But with all destruction there is new building, the raising of a New City and with every new city there are new marvels to discover. (Many of us have experienced these kinds of marvels through our consciousness expanding experiences and in our contact with the Astral Realm.) Each time I build a "NEW JERUSALEM" I am building a "New City of Peace" within myself.
So to me, when a person steps onto and makes the conscious/free will decision to walk their spiritual path—no matter what it requires of us—there are many "Ends of Days." When I have "walked through the fires of my judgment" through my own personal "purgatory" time and time again, answers to old troubling questions have always been answered. More often than not, this takes "time." But, in time, I always come out a better person, a more loving person, and a more spiritually aware person. With every spiritual advancement new and more perplexing questions have arisen that I am sure will be answered in the same way. I think that to "stop" at any one junction and settle into any dogma that would cause me to cease in my spiritual growth, would truly be Hell—a perpetual Hell. I hope that as long as I am in this body that I will continue to progress along my path, even if I must continually experience the pains of each of my "End of Days."
In NT terms this is found with Jesus, but also with Paul. As I have stated elsewhere, Paul and his contemporaries were expecting and yes hoping, for Christ to return any minute, any day, or any week. Paul's life, as depicted in his letters shows of many trials, tests, and the ultimate overcoming of those trials. When you look at all of this in a different context, I am sure that Christ did return, every minute, every day, and every week as individual people experienced their own spiritual progress. As a group, these earliest Christians were jointly experiencing an "End of Days" as well, where old ideas were being left behind and new growth was taking place. Individually and together, these people were striving for a better life and a better world. This brings us to a global application of "The End of Days."
On a larger scale, this process is much slower, because it must take the status of all people into consideration. Metaphorically, Jerusalem can also represent the "physical world" – the world that all of us share. Globally, history shows us many such "Ends of Days" where power exchanged hands, territories expanded and broke apart, oftentimes at great expense to the people. But in this, "great leaps in consciousness" have also been made, where old ideas were discarded and left behind, making room for new experiences and new ways of understanding. These periodic "End of Days" have helped us all to progress as a world people.
For one example, the western idea that the earth was at the center of the universe was very ingrained in people's view of reality. Imagine what it would have been like to have a belief like that taken away! Since then, look how far we have come and how much broader our view of reality is—and yet—many do not "believe" that there is life anywhere else in the universe. Global progress takes time. In this process, we still have a long way to go however, for in many ways we are stuck. We still live with tyranny, both political and religious. We still have wars, weapons of mass destruction, mass hunger and mass disease. As a global society we have, so far anyway, failed in the tests of some of the most simple of all spiritual lessons: we have failed to "Love one another, as each of us wants to be loved"; we have failed to see where "we reap what we sow"; and, we have failed to seek those things that are the most important. As found in Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
My treasures are all of the precious lessons that I have learned while I have built, destroyed and rebuilt, my ever-new "Personal City of Jerusalem." As a global society, I have to wonder what our treasures are now and what they will be in the future.
So, may we all continue to experience apocalyptic times in our lives and as a global society may we learn our lessons as quickly as possible.
Peace,
Beth
Hi Beth,
I completely agree with your way of interpreting these bible passages.
IMO the bible contains much useful metaphorical information for more spiritually inclined people to make use of, while the great majority take it at face value.
I believe this is where all the problems lie, as the great majority tend to read the bible in a literal fashion, leading to all kinds of problems and arguments of exact wordings etc.
It is this literal interpretation that has lead to obsessions with 'end time scenarios'.
Now, you might say 'who cares?'.
Well, the worry is that if you have someone obsessed with apocalyptic mythology, they may try to have a hand in bringing it on themselves, effectivly producing a self fulfiling prophesy.
Now, apply that on a state level and you have extreme danger.
Israel, the US, some fundamental islamic groups and so on are all guilty of this to a greater or lesser extent.
Douglas
I agree completely. Although all these self-fulfilling prophecies are also quite needed in the process of growth. If you look back in history, every city that is destroyed a greater city is built (somewhere else in the world) that is grander. This also goes along with the spirituality that Beth was speaking of. Strife makes people grow inside. So, whenever WWIII comes along I'm sure we will grow even more. Life is a puzzle and all pieces, no matter how oddly shaped, have a place in its completion.
Holy man open up your eyes
To the ways of the world you've been so blind
As the walls of religion come crashing down
How's the ignorance taste the second time around
Tell me how it feels knowing chaos will never end
Tell me what it's like when the celebration begins
Welcome to the horror of the revelation
Tell me what you think of your savior now
I reject all the biblical views of the truth
Dismiss it as the folklore of the times
I won't be force fed prophecies
From a book of untruths for the weakest mind
Join the new faith for the celebration
Cult of new faith fuels the devastation
Holy man come and worship me
I am all that you ever wanted to be
I'm the life of indulgence you never knew
The epitome of evil shining through
Tell me how it feels knowing chaos will never end
Tell me what it's like when the celebration begins
Welcome to the horror of the revelation
Tell me what you think of your savior now
I reject all the biblical views of the truth
Dismiss it as the folklore of the times
I won't be force fed prophecies
From a book of untruths for the weakest mind
I keep the bible in a pool of blood
So that none of its lies can affect me
This is new faith
A different way of life
Witness the shame
See for yourself the lies
I'll take the fight
Bring it every time, any time
Refuse to let them win
My heresy begins
Pray for life - wish for death
Pray for life - know in time you'll pray for death
Tear it away
It lives inside your mind
Silence the fear
That keeps you pure inside
Now you can see
Life's atrocities endlessly
Witness the miracle
Witness the miracle
Pray for life - wish for death
Pray for life - with every breath
You'll pray for death - you'll pray for death
Embrace new faith, embrace new faith
Yeah, new faith - yeah, new faith.
When the Bible speaks of the end times and all that will happen, there is nothing to indicate that it is speaking metaphorically, that is, in terms of the events that will happen (even science tells us this much). Much of what the Bible states about the condition of the world as the end draws near is very much a reality in today's world, so to spiritualize those words and find some hidden meaning is to completely miss what the Bible is saying and warning against.
As for anyone who says they know exactly when the end will come, don't listen to them as Jesus made it clear that no one knows even the hour, much less the day, month or year.
quote:
Originally posted by exothen
Much of what the Bible states about the condition of the world as the end draws near is very much a reality in today's world, so to spiritualize those words and find some hidden meaning is to completely miss what the Bible is saying and warning against.
The Bible is a spiritual text, so why would you not spiritualize the words in it?
bible thumpers almost always see the contents of the bible in an absolute literal fashion.. it comes with the territory!
'for it says in the 'good' book that all ye sinners shall burn!' etc etc!
To be honest, I really don't see how any of the members of this forum, or anyone serously interested in spiritual growth can take everything in the bible, or any mainstream religious text as 'gospal', esp once you start exploring the astral realms for yourself, where you really begin to see through the human construction that is 'organised religion'.
Douglas
However, if some people find comfort in it then it serves a purpose, unfortunatly though, some use it as a club to bash others over the head with, or even better, give them the *divine right* to bash others over the head.
Douglas
That's nice Gandalf. Anything interesting to add to the topic?
fallnangel77,
quote:
The Bible is a spiritual text, so why would you not spiritualize the words in it?
The Bible is a text about spiritual matters, yes, but that doesn't mean that there are hidden spiritual meanings behind the text. The Bible is the story of God's creation of man, man's fall from relationship with God, and God's subsequent chasing after man, resulting in Christ's death and resurrection so man can be permanently reconciled back to God.
The gospels are obviously the story of Jesus's early life and later ministry. The rest of the NT is about the beginnings of the Christian Church and dealt with real issues within real churches. The apocalyptic literature speaks of actual things that will happen, some of which has happened and is happening at this point in time. And you have to remember that some of it was written around 2500 years ago and none later than 1900 years ago. There is no hidden meaning behind the apocalyptic text; there is nothing in text to even remotely suggest anything other than literal events.
First, False Prophet, who was the band that sang that song. I can't remember.
Finally, about the sinners burning in hell. Have you ever read that part in the Bible where it says that the people who you suspect will go to heaven won't and those who you think will not go to heaven will (paraphrased of course). Pretty weird huh. All of that kind of falls into that predestinded issue where some religions believe that all souls going to heaven were already chosen even before birth and that no matter how bad or good you are you are going to where ever you were predestined to go *preacher packing his bags looks up and says, "Ahh, hell"*
That's nice Gandalf. Anything interesting to add to the topic?
Exothen_
Look Exothen, from your comments its clear that you believe everything in the bible as literal fact, written in stone... that's fine...Really!
I'm just pointing out the view of those who don't quite see it that way, but of course that just a view, its not heresy or anything (although it would have been a few centuries ago!).
Regards,
Douglas
Namaste,
something interesting to add to the context of "apolyptic thought". has anyone ever read "Catastrophobia" by Barbara Hand Clow? pretty new-agey, but she presents a very interesting theory about all the apocalyptic hootananay. she hypothesizes that some time ago, about 15,000 years or so, there was a global environmental catastrophe, the last ice age it was i believe...but that's not the point...bible=great flood, you know, some great horrible end of the world all life caput scenario, it is present in many many cultures mythologies around the globe. also there are other catastrophies that she tries to connect to other religious and historical documents that are way more recent, aka=destruction of the minoans. but anyway, these global catastrophic events have basically thrown humanity back to the stone age. she believes (and there is lots of archeological evidence to support this); that humans were much much more advanced in technology, philosophy, religion, culture, art etc etc, and then we were nearly wiped out. after generations of survival living, humans are now trying to piece together what the hell happened...and we all have a deeply deeply buried unconscious racial memory of global cataclsym(sp?)....we have had no way to get over the trauma, cause we dont even remember it, as a species...and so like all trauma survivors, we attack that which we felt hurt us(nature) and try to reproduce the traumatic event so that we may find meaning and integration in our collective emotional body....thus certain temporal rulers seen hellbent on trashing the planet ecosystem and creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. by the way, much of ms.clow's theories are based on a really great book called "Hamelt's Mill" by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, which i am making my way through now...so many scandanavian names....[xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by exothen
The Bible is a text about spiritual matters, yes, but that doesn't mean that there are hidden spiritual meanings behind the text.
1 Corinthians 2:7 - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Also, Jesus, when asked why he spoke in parables indicated that it was so that they would hear, but not understand - clearly implying a hidden message that some would understand and not others.
And as for The Revelation being literal and not infused with hidden meaning, that's absurd. Consider the following passage:
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, ... And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.Do you think when Jesus returns he's going to be in the midst of seven
literal candlesticks and that he's going to be holding seven
literal stars in his right hand and that a
literal sword will be sticking out of his mouth?
Personally I believe that when people insist on taking the Bible literally it is because they are two scared or lazy to take personal responsiblity for their own spiritual growth. Spiritually they refuse to grow up. In Old Testament days the jewish people didn't have a concept of individuality before God - they were part of a nation that was covered via a group covenant with God.
Jesus announced the passing away of that covenant and the good news that we could all, via the Holy Spirit, seek God directly. Unfortunately, many Christians have refused to accept the "perfect law of freedom" that Jesus offered, preferring instead to be part of pack like the Old Testament jewish nation adhering to a written law. Their written law is the New Testament and they cling tenaciously to the hope that if they just believe the Bible literally and in Jesus' death and resurrection that nothing else will be required of them. Because they are spiritual infants they have made the Bible their God, rendering the Holy Spirit mostly idle.
Unfortunately they have missed the point that spiritual growth doesn't come from a book or from Jesus' death on the cross. That is the beginning but the radical internal transformation by the work of the Holy Spirit is something we must strive after relentlessly - and that message is "hidden in plain site" in parables throughout the New Testament but can only be understood by those willing to let loose of their written law and plunge into the messy, sticky, vague, frustrating, challenging and yet wonderful process of allowing the Holy Spirit to bring about that internal transformation spoken of in Romans.
Well Firstly maybe someone could have a word with False Prophet. He is PMing me with lyrics of his wierd songs and in this thread he is just thumping his anti christian probaganda in exactly the same way Narrow Path did. So far I heard nothing in the way of actual discussion or arguments.
Kindly Mustardseed
Gandalf,
Not one single person in this whole forum has given any reason whatsoever to believe that the Bible isn't to be taken literally.
RJA,
quote:
Also, Jesus, when asked why he spoke in parables indicated that it was so that they would hear, but not understand - clearly implying a hidden message that some would understand and not others.
But still, it
does not follow that everything in the Bible was written with some other meaning behind it.
quote:
Do you think when Jesus returns he's going to be in the midst of seven literal candlesticks and that he's going to be holding seven literal stars in his right hand and that a literal sword will be sticking out of his mouth?
You are assuming that because the Bible uses metaphors that the Bible is always speaking metaphorically with some other hidden meaning. Of course there is much use of metaphors in Revelation, but that doesn't mean that all the events in Revelation are metaphors as well. Jesus warned of the terribleness of the end times and Revelation expands on that providing details. The return of Christ will be physical and the tribulation will be physical. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.
quote:
Their written law is the New Testament and they cling tenaciously to the hope that if they just believe the Bible literally and in Jesus' death and resurrection that nothing else will be required of them.
The Bible is clear that if one does not believe in the literal, physical resurrection of Christ, they are eternally separated from God. But to think that "literalists" hope that nothing else will be required of them, is completely false; I know of no Christian who is like this.
quote:
Unfortunately they have missed the point that spiritual growth doesn't come from a book or from Jesus' death on the cross.
Spiritual growth
begins with believing in Christ as saviour, it is not an end in itself. And the Bible is not an end in itself either; it tells us how to get right with God and then provides the instructions on how to continue growing.
quote:
Personally I believe that when people insist on taking the Bible literally it is because they are two scared or lazy to take personal responsiblity for their own spiritual growth. Spiritually they refuse to grow up.
And I believe that when people do not take the Bible literally it's because they don't like the teachings of Christ, it makes them uncomfortable, and they don't like to be told what the truth is and how they stand in relation to that truth. People love being right and it all comes from the Garden of Eden, the "Original Sin" - rejecting God as the authority and wanting to be their own boss -
pride. And as a result, they come to the Bible already rejecting much of the message of the Bible and then reinterpret it however they see fit. This is an attempt to rid themselves of nagging guilt for not doing what they know they should do.
The problem is, the Bible states that man's heart is deceitful and sinful, beyond cure, so one can see that this will immediately cause problems with personal interpretation apart from already literally believing in Christ's death and resurrection. On that, the Bible is clear.
It's interesting to note that during the New Testament church's most dynamic period - the first century - there was no such thing as the New Testament. Is it coincidence that this is also when we see such a dynamic working of the Holy Spirit? I don't think so.
It's also interesting to note that when Jesus ascended he said he would send us a helper, - the Holy Spirit, but he didn't mention anything about a New Testament.
It's also interesting to note that Paul never intended for his writings to be bundled up and regarded as scripture. It's clear from Paul's writings that he thought Jesus' return was imminent and therefore it's reasonable to think that he had no illusions about a "New Testament" coming about.
So, when an official, organized, heirarchical church was founded in Rome and set about putting their official stamp of approval on which religious texts would be "in" and which "out" - the body of Christ on Earth began the transition from a loosely organized group of city churches relying on the Holy Spirit - to religious subjects to whom religious truth was dictated by an authoritarian group of people. Bye Bye Holy Spirit.[:)]
RJA,
Well Put!![:D]
Peace,
Beth
RJA_
Quite right! organised Christianity as we know it today is a purely Roman construct; it amazes me when hardcore christians talk about the 'evil empire' of Rome, when christianity is in fact one of the lasting legacies of that empire.
After Constantine's 'conversion', Christianity officially became part of state policy and the old cult of christianity (the original and best!) died. One of the main reasons for Constantine's adoption of the christian cult and the development of it into an international religion, was that he was looking for ways to bind the empire together and prevent further fragmentaion; a new state religion seemed like a good idea.
Over the course of the 4th Century the empire was steadily transformed into a christian theocracy, where bishops became so powerful they could even bring emperors to heel. For example, in one instance during the late 4th century, Bishop Ambrosius ordered that Emperor Theodosius do public penance for an atrocity he carried out on the citizens of the Greek city of Thessalonika; this kind of thing would have been unthinkable only a few years before!
Regards,
Douglas
RJA,
quote:
It's interesting to note that during the New Testament church's most dynamic period - the first century - there was no such thing as the New Testament. Is it coincidence that this is also when we see such a dynamic working of the Holy Spirit? I don't think so.
First, you are assuming that there is a direct link between the working of the Holy Spirit and the advent of the NT. There is no reason to believe this. Second, you seem to be implying that the Holy Spirit doesn't, or hasn't, moved in such a dynamic way since the NT came about, which is also false.
quote:
It's also interesting to note that when Jesus ascended he said he would send us a helper, - the Holy Spirit, but he didn't mention anything about a New Testament.
It's also interesting to note that Paul never intended for his writings to be bundled up and regarded as scripture. It's clear from Paul's writings that he thought Jesus' return was imminent and therefore it's reasonable to think that he had no illusions about a "New Testament" coming about.
And why should Jesus or Paul have need to have known or mentioned the coming of the NT? It doesn't matter that Paul didn't intend on his writings to be regarded as scripture because God did. The scriptures are inspired of God and he brought together the writings that were to be included in the NT. All the books were completed before 100 AD and were being copied and circulated amongst the churches. So, although they didn't have the complete NT, they did have the books, and they still had the Apostles.
quote:
So, when an official, organized, heirarchical church was founded in Rome and set about putting their official stamp of approval on which religious texts would be "in" and which "out" - the body of Christ on Earth began the transition from a loosely organized group of city churches relying on the Holy Spirit - to religious subjects to whom religious truth was dictated by an authoritarian group of people. Bye Bye Holy Spirit.
Again, more assumptions. First, the process of determining which texts would be included in canon was a very lengthy process, and one which included the Holy Spirit's guidance. There are very good reasons as to why some texts were not canonized. It was not just a matter of "putting their official stamp" on anything.
Second, you are assuming that the Holy Spirit left, or at least was no longer guiding the Church after the canon of scripture. This would prove Jesus to be a liar. I do agree that the Church abused scripture and used it to gain power over the people, but that's all it was, an abuse. The reformation changed that. The Holy Spirit never left and people never stopped seeking the Holy Spirit for guidance.
namaste,
did anyone even ready my post about catastrophobia??? i know, the orgiastic argument over anything christian is too good to pass up.
The Bible says there will be several signs indicating that we are in "the time of the end" these signs are given by Jesus in Matthew 24:
1.Wars and rumours of wars (see my post above)
2.Famines and pestilences
(consider aids, sarg, the ebola and the expected antibiotic backfire not to mention the threat of chemical warfare never before possible)
3.Earthquakes in many different places
Nr of earthquakes between the years
1000-1800=21
1800-1900=18
1900-1950=33
1950-1991=93
Between 1950 and 1991 93 major earthquakes tripple the number of the previous half century killing 1.3 million people (you do the math and see if the is an increase)
4. An increase of violence
(consider hollywood , videogames, in the us alone a person is murdered every 22 min someone raped every 4 min and a robbery committed every 26 sec)by the time a kid is 15 he/she will have witnessed 35000 killings on tv as well as 200000 other brutal acts such as beatings rapes etc.)
5.The LOVE of many shall grow cold.
(A moral decline happening all over the world divorse rates abortions, selfishness)
I could go on with other signs and we can talk about wether they are fulfilled they include:
False Christs and false prophets shall arise.(this one we see before our very eyes[;)])
Increase in global traveling
Mens hearts failing them for fear
Increase in homosexuality
Knowledge and witchcraft increased
Cashless society invented
Let me know if you wanna see it but please spare me the rantings and raving and let us discuss these things nicely.
Regards Mustardseed
Namaste,
this is a thread topic that i am really interested in, and i really wish people could stick to the damn topic...apocalyptic thought! you know, analysation of the deeper psychological and esoteric(if you say anything because i used the word esoteric, so help me) basis for believing that there is an eminent "end" of all things...christian apocalyptic thought imo is based deeply in the idea of original sin. it is this deep sense of collective and peronsal guilt that leads the believer to the constant feeling of need for "cleansing". and since the essential nature of the believer's humanity is "unclean" or sin, i feel one of the direct results of a massive portion of humanity that hates themselves, is that there will be an apocalyptic cataclysm of sorts. what is really interesting, is that one of the most open and spiritual people's known to have existed, the Hopi, have similar beliefs, as do many other North and South American Indigeonous(sp?) cultures. there are gulfs of differences...namely, the idea that a person can be "unclean" in their essential nature is unheard of...but the major cause for a needed "cleansing" on a massive scale, is when humans become poor stewards for the living earth. i'm gonna make a conjecture here and say that this interesting comparison shows us that the origins of christianity are based in the earth based fertility cults of the ancient mediterranean and european world, and have been manipulated by men to create an abstracted, near constant emotional hysteria where believers are taught that they are "unclean by birth" and the clergy give their flock no practical way to make themselves whole...constant interal psychological war. native american cultures on the other hand give us the message, you were ok when you were born, remember where you came from, care for your relations and life will be good. is it possible that the constant internal war in an individuals mind and heart can lead to a tremendous amount of focus on "SELF", "what can I do to be better" etc, and even possibly a dangerously nihilistic view of life.."bonk it all im no good, never was, so who cares??" I DONT CARE TO HEAR YOUR OPINION MUSTARDSEED. what i understand is that it is not a thread to list a bunch of subjective "signs" of the friggin "end times"....we know you think this, but why?? because the bible says so...and you agree with the bible. that is all you have to offer. it you can leave that personal guilt trip at home and bring other things to the forum(which i know you can, i have seen it); then maybe we could have a fruitful debate....now, i am very very curious, does anyone have any thoughts about the ideas presented in the theory of "catastrophobia"??? i brought it up a couple of replies ago...
shadowdancer,
I have not read the book "Catastrophobia" so I cannot comment or discuss in any real informed way, but from the info that you have given,
it would not surprise me at all. Plato is the one that spoke of Atlantis, and how much more advanced this civilization was.
The problem we have with this, is the same one we have with so many things of the ancient past--we are so far removed from the actual events it is going to be near impossible to reconstruct a valid picture. All we can do is speculate. In my opinion, these speculations are not bad things, they can really help us by giving us a possible "in hindsight" view, but more importantly they can provide us with great motivations to keep the bad events from reoccuring and help insure that the good ones are build upon and secured.
In many ways, what we have today is all that we have got. This is what we have to really work with, and it is here that we must really begin. Because the Bible is still here, the bible is still a valuable tool, but that does not mean that the Church or any Church owns the "Only True" interpretation.
I think you made a very clear and succinct comment about why the Church's interpretation is failing so many people:
quote:
by men to create an abstracted, near constant emotional hysteria where believers are taught that they are "unclean by birth" and the clergy give their flock no practical way to make themselves whole...
By doing so, they have no other defense mechanism than to defend
the Church's interpretation. Further, the Church itself
has thus become the "only True Savior." I have never felt that the Church offered me a "practical way" to make myself "whole" and I knew in the deepest places of my heart that there was a much greater wisdom that the scriptures offered. I have dedicated most of my life to discovering this wisdom.
quote:
is it possible that the constant internal war in an individuals mind and heart can lead to a tremendous amount of focus on "SELF", "what can I do to be better" etc
And this has been the result for me. By my
starting with the literal and moving past it, to a place within it, I found
a much deeper meaning that "liberated" the Holy Spirit from the book and
allowed it to move within my own heart/mind/and life. This "liberation of the Spirit" is what I now understand the character of Paul as trying to convey. This "liberation of the Spirit from the book" has been "my Salvation" time and time again. I hope that my salvation continues to increase as I evolve. BTW: In Hebrew, the name Jesus means "to liberate" "to set free" or "to save." The whole meaning of "salvation" has become stagnate with the Church's sole--One True Interpretation, and I for one now prefer to think of
the spirituality that the 1st century offers us is a "liberation" from the casualties of earth-bound human endeavors such as greed, violence, destruction and a general "ill-use of power."
In my comments on apocalypticism, I wrote of both an "internal" and "external" meaning. The internal are the "internal wars" that happen on every new level of greater understanding. The external meanings and prophecies abound about the "external wars", but I would really like to see more of the "internal meanings" brought forward within our world. Thinkers such as Jung, just to name one, did just that. He searched for a deeper meaning of it all, and I for one take seriously many of the things he wrote about. He tried to provide us with a "new model" from which to work. His findings resonate deep within me. In a great many ways, his search is also my search--a search for a "practical way" to understand the internal wars that the Holy Spirit, God, higher-self, guides, masters, (whatever we all call it/them)
will bring about in our lives.
I made the decision a long time ago that I would no longer be a victim to my own life. Sometimes I still am![B)] But, I always eventually find my way back to the "practical way" in which a higher power is working to help my soul progress.
I read the memoirs of a Nun who, while being raped and brutally beaten, cried out:
You can take my body, but you cannot take my soul! Okay, enough said for now![8D]
Peace,
Beth
(You said)[I DONT CARE TO HEAR YOUR OPINION MUSTARDSEED. what i understand is that it is not a thread to list a bunch of subjective "signs" of the friggin "end times"....we know you think this, but why?? because the bible says so...and you agree with the bible. that is all you have to offer.
(answer)
I dont want to become like you so I will try to be nice about it. I think you are out of order and would like you to calm down and stop being rude. Is your rude behaviour a sign that you are not able t or want to argue your case, and just want to shut up anyone disagreeing with you.Look back at the first post. I was invited to offer my opinion by Beth in the very first post as I had allready opened a thread of my own. She asked me
"My take on this, however, is going to be quite different than what has been posted so far (does that really surprise you??,) but I will let someone else start. How about you Mustardseed, since you thought of it too?"
She knew very well what my beliefs were gonna be and that she would differ. I knew that too so I gave her the opportunity to post her beliefs as a contrast to mine. (the more mainstream believed understanding of things ). This is why I wrote. You might not agree , I have no problem with that, Beth might not agree, well there are several things we dont agree on so what, we can still talk and maybe sometimes even learn from each other. I would suggest that if you dont want to hear what I have to offer , and mind you , I am not cramming it down your throat nor bible bashing you nor condemning you, well just dont read my posts. When you see my name just dont read it. Pass over it and be at peace with yourself. If you do feel that my ideas and beliefs can be debated do so, but if you want me to take you serious, stop behaving like you do, and stop using curse words.
My take of the end times is the same as it always was. I think there is a beginning to everything and I think there is an end. I do not find it hard to believe, and when I first read the things above I was surprised as I saw ancient writings depicting events happening all around me. I dont see the need to complicate things or interpret but think it could mean just what it says. Maybe that sounds ignorant or simpleminded to you, if so .....guilty at all charges, I never considered myself a big thinker or complicated philosofer.
Regards Mustardseed
according to 'bowling for columbine', violence and killings have only been going down. I think they went down to about 70% or something, as where the broadcasting of such things has gone up 600%. Perhaps you should think about the fact that violence isnt really getting worse, but its only being publicized more now, same with natural disasters.
Hi Mustardseed,
I hope I can help with my take on your list at the top of this thread. I have a feeling that this all may be judgment (coming to terms). In the mean time, life goes on. I wasn't prepared for my judgment day/realization. I had it figured alright until it came to the decision choice of "Who am I listening to?". I couldn't decide. This is in a personal way, I can't say what it means in the global way.
Personally, if I had known more at the time, I may have made a different choice, I had to choose the best answer with the information I had. So maybe that's all any of us can do?
Your list:
1.
Could be from listening to end time ministries or other religious sources.
Astral sounds in the sky sounds like "war".
3.
Earthquates may be astral vibration. A quaking, a releasing on a large scale.
4.
You may become more aware of these things. This may depend on the level your in. Higher vibrational levels cause things to seem more intense.
JoWo made an interesting statement when discussing a dream under the title of OMG in the Dream Section.
quote:
According to QM and many trustworthy channeled messages, we create our own reality through the contents of our mind, with what we focus on and what we believe. This goes for our dream reality as well as our daytime experiences. The difference between these two is that our dream experiences give us glimpses of untold probabilities, of potential physical experiences, whereas our daytime consciousness is aware of only one particular selection from these many possibilities. In QM, the world of possibilities beyond our three-dimensional physical experiences is called "multi-dimensional".
To use a somewhat simplistic metaphor, the multi-dimensional world is like a giant department store with an overwhelming choice of possible events. We pick only a few of those events and make them "real" in our 3-D environment. This selection occurs usually unconsciously and is determined by your mindset, which attracts those events that "resonate" with it. In a dream, you pay attention to some possible selections before we make our choice.
5.
There is an isolating aspect in spiritual development. You could find your more aware of the difference and you therefore feel as if your in your own world.
Fear of coming into realization. It can be alarming, but it doesn't have to be if your prepared for it.
More acutely aware of those things foreign to your knowing.
If you don't understand "witchcraft", you may take a collective view and it will appear evil or bad.
Things may get more convienient and things happen effortlessly and quickly. Your more in with perfect (knowing) timing, I call it synchronicity. It could be your spirit too.
You may become more aware of things that don't sound "right". You come to a deeper understanding.
Oops, I don't know if your a man or a woman. I'm a female.
I'm not sure if it works the same way, but I don't see why not
Thanks for your nice post. YES it could be all of those things. I am considering wether this is so. As I do not KNOW, and confess I am seeking the TRUTH, I will have to include it as a possibility!!!That said I still lean towards my first post. It is a bit like the saying "if it ain't broken don't fix it" It makes a lot of sense to me and I can see the things that has changed and how things still change. Many years ago back in the 70s when I first heard about this I argued in a similar way. I was a hippie and into "vibrations man" . I never felt the increase in violence 60s and 70s were very tame and peacefull compared with today. I also could not concieve of a cashless society Computers internet etc. But all that changed. My life experience tells me that these signs could be unveiling before my very eyes. I do not claim I KNOW, do you? Are you willing to consider that it might be true??
Regards Mustardseed
Namaste,
mustardseed, i just wanted to say thank you for being you. you are a blessed individual....your humility is definitely an inspiration for me. God Bless.
Namaskar
Thankyou and all the best to you too
Regards MS
Thanks,
I agree, if it ain't broken don't fix it (cause you have to know what to fix first [;)]). I've been a literal believer from the get go. I'm not about to change at this late date. I know about heaven. God protects me from hell. God will make the change(s). The veils are getting thinner.
I think I know about the inbetween, not about the beginning or the end. Do you have any specific questions Mustardseed?
There was an earlier statement that christians don't want to grow up. God never said to grow up. Maybe the problem is too many man made rules. Man/Woman oppresses, not God.
No Wisp but thanks. I dont really have a lot of specific questions either. I just try to consider the points brought up by folks on the board. However there seem to be to be very few here that have real formulated ideas or understanding of the deeper reason and meaning of these things, and they mostly use OBEs almost as a toy. For most it seems that they believe or disbelieve things based on wether they what to or not, and they are blown about with every wind of doctrine. Its a bit of a mindgame mixed with feelingsgame and at times a powertrip (to use a ancient Hippie term[;)]). Some people are more serious . A few seem to have a deeper understanding and desire for the answers. Very rarely do people take up an argument and face certain things I write and stick with it. This is a difficult dilemma. I might write long long posts and the questions and observations will be generally ignored if they are hard to answer. It is sort of a selective discussion where people answer only what they want to, and no one can be kept to the topic. Time delays and all. A lot of folks make big claims and after they are asked to substantiate them they just change the subject, this seems to be a very widespread way of getting the last word [;)].
I do have OBEs and Lucid dreams and have had them since childhood. In my later years they have become stronger and I found out by coincidence , not Reading books how I could make them start and go away. My main question is this. WHY. ???? Whats the plan? So far I have through that been able to relate to this board and certainly have a deeper understanding for folks who have them too and are scared by them. Maybe that is why. I do not desire to go into the Astral all that much though I can project almost at will.
Regards Mustardseed
quote:
Originally posted by fallnangel77
President Bush (current) wants to use Nuclear weapons in his war on terrorism. These will go off underground, which to the uneducated person sounds ok, because they tell you that all the radiation will be contained in the ground. But many, if not most, people with knowledge in this field disagree and think the fall out will be much worse than having it explode in the air like those in Japan. So no, I do not think that the nuclear test is over. As long as there are nuclear weapons there is always a threat, especially when you have people in power that want to use them.
Jesus said that NO ONE will know the time when this will take place. So why are some many people trying to figure out the time when Jesus said no one will know?
I guess their wasting their time.
Oh Beth,
I was so impressed with your post in this section. I must have liked your metaphors of your house so well I had a couple of dreams of my own. They were more in the form of a graph or diagram. And the background was a light yellow. In the meantime, I thought I would share my take on my life as a metaphor. A different angle perhaps.
Three Houses
I first began connecting the physical and the spiritual in a organized way the last few years. At least in a way I could form a sytem of thought on how it worked.I come from a family who the parents were part of the living environment. As opposed to say, them living way across country and keeping in contact meant phone calls and occasional visits. Weekly visits, usually on weekends. A way of life really. I lived with my grandparents a significant part of my early years. My children are following through in the same manner. The three houses I discovered are three aspects of me. This is something I was never so aware of until suddenly things began to shift or change in my real world.
I've had a house for many years. It served it's purpose, and still does in a paradoxical sort of way. My parents had a farm. This was my other home. It was certainly showing it's age as well as my own. My mother decided she wanted a new house (don't we all[:)]). So my dad went to work on making it happen. I was quite impressed at their plans and their moving forward with this plan. They even included me in on much of the plan and decision making. I had such hope for this endeavor. The house was perfect. I supplied the lighting and mirror ideas for the place.
Now I had 3 places. Through the years my things had collected at two. Now I found myself with my things collecting at three. Very odd, and kind of confusing, but it worked. To make a long story short, the third house toppled like something out of a fairy tale. My dad died fairly suddenly, my mother was devastated. She sold all she had and moved on. I was left with my one place and life changed for me forever. I had to figure a way to fit my things from 3 places into one. Even before I returned home, I knew it wouldn't fit. I had no choice and had to do it anyway.Many things toppled at this point in my life. My family dispersed, we all went our separate ways. My past caught up with me on many levels. I learned of multidimensional life in my multidimental house (3 in one).
Now if I can only know which came first, me or my house? Or the question may be,at what level at what time do I work to move on as my mother did. I've always had clues and a feel for things before. Now I have nothing in that sense. This seems like a good place to be. A good place on a certain level that is. I'm just trying to figure out the rest. How to move with the least amount of effort.Where to move because I can't stay here (too much work).
Most would say move to where your work is. Well, that's what I'm trying to avoid. God help me. [:)]
Dear Wisp,
I am glad my post helped!![:)]
I truly think that metaphor can be turned into reality if one chooses. Perhaps it is time that "WISP BUILT HER OWN HOUSE"--a physical house that better matches her multidimensional house. In other words, a house that is not built around other people's houses, but rather, a house that is built around "all that wisp is." Sometimes our lives are so "full" of other people and things, that there is no room left--all will "not" fit "in just one house." While "letting go" of the OLD can be difficult for us all--by doing so, we make all kinds of room for the NEW to come in. Pray/meditate on a new path that is yours alone, with the intention of making the "new metaphor into a new reality."
It sounds like to me that the powers that be (and your Mom) have already helped you get started by giving you a pretty good push...
Peace,
Beth
I just thought everyone should know the End Days started October 3! Yes I was surprised too, but all the prophets agree. Today I was standing in line at Kmart waiting to buy some new pants and I looked over at a magazine and there it was, bold and clear as day. Of coarse I think this is the same mag that said it was the end of the world on new years every year for the past ten years so ... I decided to go ahead and buy the pants just incase we are all still around long enough for me to have a need to wear them. [:P]
Good one, Fallnangel [:)] lol
In response to Fallnangel's post "Jesus said that NO ONE will know the time when this will take place. So why are some many people trying to figure out the time when Jesus said no one will know?"
There is a passage in the Bible that says "I command you to know when the time is near, even at the door" So, while we will never know the exact time, but we are to know when it is near.
The End of Days? or more formally known as "Apocalypticism" and "Apocalyptic Thought" is a big topic today, as it has also been in virtually every generation since before the turn of the first millennium.
Ideas of such a thing are found throughout the biblical prophets such as the more commonly known books of Ezekiel and Daniel, and then repeated in the NT with Revelation. But there is great deal more to this than you might suspect. The Apostle Paul was also an apocalyptic writer and it is from this idea that most of his ideas stem. (This is where A LOT of misunderstandings also originate, e.g., being chaste (not having sex), not marrying unless people already were, and certain other more strict prescriptions. In Paul's day, they were expecting "the end of days" before nightfall at the earliest and within days at the very latest!!)
There are, however, many other ancient non-canonical texts that tells us of this same idea, texts such as the Books of Enoch, The Apocalypse of Abraham, and many more! (These are the ones that speak of OBE and lucid dreaming the most!![8D])
This topic has already been brought up in another thread, but I was going to start one soon anyway!! Amazing how the "collective mind works!"[:)]
My take on this, however, is going to be quite different than what has been posted so far (does that really surprise you??[;)],) but I will let someone else start. How about you Mustardseed, since you thought of it too?
Remember: This should be about Apocalyptic Thought specifically. Although I know that prophecy is certainly a part of this, we already have a thread for prophecy, so let's try to contain this to "specific apocalyptic prophecies." And, this should not become a thread where current day politics or economics is hashed out. Okay??
Peace,
Beth
You know whats sad, Gandalf and others that feel that the Bible shouldn't be taken for face value, is that Im sure the same reasoning went around while Noah was preaching and building his ark.
Of course we know the outcome of that situation don't we?
Now back to the discussion, do I believe that we are in the last days? Yes we are.
Is the world going to end like some people mistakingly believe the Bible teaches? No its not.
What the end of days actually means is the end of an age. We are going from an age of sinful man ruling the world and causing pain and suffering to his fellow man to Christ actually ruling this world in a Utopian paradise where people will live by the golden rule and if they don't there will be true justice.
Lastly for those interested in the Bible for end times prophecy you should realize that Revelations is just the last book of prophecy but not the only book of prophecy in the Bible that relates to the last days.
I would suggest that if you really want to know what is gonna happen in the last days that you should also read the books of:
Danial - This book above all sets many of the symbols in the book of Revelations.
Ezekiel - Covers the battle of Armageddon, The battle of Gog / Magog where a coalition of Russian and Muslim countries try to invade Israel but are destroyed by the power of God.
Zechariah - Same as above.
If you really do a study and you pray that God will give you the meaning of this prophecy then you will see that the end times is an expansive story of a loving God that cares enough for his people that he has sent them warnings of what will transpire.
Also for the doubters out there that don't know but the EU is the beast mentioned in revelations and do you know that in its main government building there are 679 seats and only 1 seat is empty and guess what number its labeled? Bingo 666.
So a word of warning when you see that seat filled and you see a law passed that requires you to receive an electronic implant in your head or hand in order to buy or sell you better get on your knees and pray to God because your very soul is at stake.
I'm a Christian, so I believe in the bible. Somewhere in Revelations it says that the generation that witnessed the recreation of Israel as a country will not die out before the apocalypse. So basically I'm saying it will be very soon. Be prepared...
QuoteI'm a Christian, so I believe in the bible. Somewhere in Revelations it says that the generation that witnessed the recreation of Israel as a country will not die out before the apocalypse. So basically I'm saying it will be very soon. Be prepared...
Wow that is an amazing prophecy if it is true.
I will check that out.
That would mean that it is very soon.
The Second Coming that is.
Quote from: Soma-SightQuoteI'm a Christian, so I believe in the bible. Somewhere in Revelations it says that the generation that witnessed the recreation of Israel as a country will not die out before the apocalypse. So basically I'm saying it will be very soon. Be prepared...
Wow that is an amazing prophecy if it is true.
I will check that out.
That would mean that it is very soon.
The Second Coming that is.
This idea is never explicitly stated in the NT -- it is read into it by those who interpret Revelation through the lense of premillenial dispensationalism. Basically, there is a lot in Revelation and in the eschatological prophecies of Jesus that revolves around the Jewish temple... but of course the slight problem with that is that there isn't one anymore. So, in order for a futurist interpretation to work, it would have to be rebuilt... and in order for it to be rebuilt, there would have to be a Jewish state, which there is now as of the end of WW2. Today's popular interpretation of Revelation was invented around the turn of the century and first started to gain popularity during the 20's-30's, so of course when Israel became a nation in 1948, they viewed it as "the pieces falling into place" as a sign that "the end is near."
The funny thing, to me, is that this view is most popular among people who consider themselves biblical literalists. If they were as much into literalism as they claim, then why not take Rev. literally when it specifically states who it's addressed to: the seven churches of 1st century Asia Minor?
You know whats sad, Gandalf and others that feel that the Bible shouldn't be taken for face value, is that Im sure the same reasoning went around while Noah was preaching and building his ark.
Now this line says it all! Like Noah preaching and building his ark... mmm that *really happened* :wink: Seriously though, I guess its up to your own belief and I respect it, but to assume as you do that the bible is a valid historical text plumbs the depths of foolishness in my opinion!
It's sad, that people like me dont 'take the bible at face value'? I beg to differ. Its called having an enquiring mind and a bit of common sense. Its not sad.. its wonderful!
As soon as it is held to be *good* to critisise people for questioning religious dogmas, you might as well move to Iran :wink:
Also for the doubters out there that don't know but the EU is the beast mentioned in revelations and do you know that in its main government building there are 679 seats and only 1 seat is empty and guess what number its labeled? Bingo 666.
Utter, utter piffle and outright paranoia! You have been getting your info from Holywood movies, in particular the *false* revelations quote in 'The Omen'.
I'm glad I don't live anywhere near you and that you do not have access to nuclear weapons :wink:
Douglas
PS if anyone actually bothers to *read* revelations, it is quite clear to anyone with an ounce of common sense that the events described were assumed to occur within the lifetimes of the early christians responsible for these writings.
Trying to fit them to interprete modern scenarios is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, but it doesnt stop the paranoid from trying.
Luckily the writings are so vague as to lend itself to constant reinterpretations if you put enough imagination into it. Such a style of presenting prophesies was hardly new, even before that time, cf the obscure revelations given by the oracle at Delphi, and in more recent times, the vague prophesies of Nostradamus, written so they can be adapted to any situation. Some people are so naive!
Well done Doug!
You see, you can always count on Doug for a nicely balanced approach. That's what makes this whole forum great, it's balance.
Yours,
Frank
Quote from: GandalfYou know whats sad, Gandalf and others that feel that the Bible shouldn't be taken for face value, is that Im sure the same reasoning went around while Noah was preaching and building his ark.
Now this line says it all! Like Noah preaching and building his ark... mmm that *really happened* :wink: Seriously though, I guess its up to your own belief and I respect it, but to assume as you do that the bible is a valid historical text plumbs the depths of foolishness in my opinion!
It's sad, that people like me dont 'take the bible at face value'? I beg to differ. Its called having an enquiring mind and a bit of common sense. Its not sad.. its wonderful!
As soon as it is held to be *good* to critisise people for questioning religious dogmas, you might as well move to Iran :wink:
Also for the doubters out there that don't know but the EU is the beast mentioned in revelations and do you know that in its main government building there are 679 seats and only 1 seat is empty and guess what number its labeled? Bingo 666.
Utter, utter piffle and outright paranoia! You have been getting your info from Holywood movies, in particular the *false* revelations quote in 'The Omen'.
I'm glad I don't live anywhere near you and that you do not have access to nuclear weapons :wink:
Douglas
PS if anyone actually bothers to *read* revelations, it is quite clear to anyone with an ounce of common sense that the events described were assumed to occur within the lifetimes of the early christians responsible for these writings.
Trying to fit them to interprete modern scenarios is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, but it doesnt stop the paranoid from trying.
Luckily the writings are so vague as to lend itself to constant reinterpretations if you put enough imagination into it. Such a style of presenting prophesies was hardly new, even before that time, cf the obscure revelations given by the oracle at Delphi, and in more recent times, the vague prophesies of Nostradamus, written so they can be adapted to any situation. Some people are so naive!
Wow thank you Gandalf for resulting to personal insults by calling me paranoid, lacking common sense, foolish, naive... etc..
Personally I could care less what you think about people like me for actually trusting and following the Bible at its literal face value. If you choose not to believe then thats fine by my standards and if not believing floats your boat then enjoy your brief life but that doesnt change the fact that we are indeed in the last days.
I honestly hope though that when the time comes and that you are in the last days that you will actually be opened minded enough to realise that Bible prophecy is being fullfilled and that you would make the right decision.
Btw as far as 666 is concerned No I have never watched the OMEN nor do I put much credence in anything coming from Hollywood considering that they always mess up everything... Where I do get my information from is the EU website and those that monitor the EU.
honestly hope though that when the time comes and that you are in the last days that you will actually be opened minded enough to realise that Bible prophecy is being fullfilled and that you would make the right decision.
haha!
Whatever!
Doug
Quote from: Colossus999I'm a Christian, so I believe in the bible. Somewhere in Revelations it says that the generation that witnessed the recreation of Israel as a country will not die out before the apocalypse. So basically I'm saying it will be very soon. Be prepared...
Actually that teaching sprang from Matthew 24:33
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.Modern day Israel is considered by many fundies as the "fig tree" which put forth leaves in 1948.
Personally, I tend to agree with Victor Ostrovsky... if there is a 2nd coming, he'll probably turn out to be Mossad.
Quote:
QuoteRevelation 13:18
This calls for wisdom. Let anyone with understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of man. His number is 666. [italics, of course, are mine]
When the phrase
the number of man is translated from the Greek into Semitic the result is ha-sepherah haish. Because Semitic does not employ all the vowels the actual letters involved are h-s-ph-r-h h-a-i-sh. Translating these consonants into their numerical equivalent the result is:
H5+S60+ph80+r200+h5+h5+a1+i10+sh300=666
What does this mean? That 666 is the numerical equivalent of the phrase immediately preceeding the giving of the actual numbers.
Need more proof?
The Greek word for "Beast" is therion. When this word is transliterated into Semitic we get theron or tav-yod-reish-vav-nun and when these consonants are added together with their numerical equivalents the result is the same:
th400+e10+r200+o6+n50=666
What does this mean? That 666 is also the numerical equivalent of the noun being cryptically referenced.
SO in essence,
the Greek noun "Beast"
the Semitic phrase "the number of man"
each add up to the subsequently given number of 666
This may have been some sort of riddle that actually had the answer provided right before the reader's eyes--and at the same time a language tool where whole paragraphs find cohesion through the repetitive use of certain key nouns, verbs and numbers. But...in all fairness, you have to know both Greek and Semitic language to know this, as well as how to use the literary tool called gematria.
The entire book of Revelation--just like most all of the books of the bible--are full of literary puzzles and bi-lingual constructions--all written by utilizing literary tools that the world today does not yet recognize, let alone understand.
I have said this before, but I will repeat it again, the Bible was never meant to be taken literally and the sooner we all start accepting this fact, the closer we can get to the real message of these authors--which in my opinion is no less spiritual or metaphysical in nature than traditional biblical renderings are claimed to be--and IMO it will eventually be shown that these messages are a lot more spiritual than most people expect--or want them to be--especially those people that have been taking the texts literally.
There is a lot more to this than most people realize and I wish more scholars and ministers would get with the program and talk about these things. Many of them know, at least in part, but for various reasons are just not talking...
Peace,
Beth
p.s. This also means that we really do not know when
it will come...whatever
it really is....but I am pretty sure it is a safe bet that it is not the EU..... :roll: