The Virgin Mary... May that have been Possible?

[Eol007]

Hi Darkangel13,

killer question, Immm!

Would love to x-reference this one in depth - if I had the inclination and time, yet: -

Assume you are familiar with Gardner's spin on this. I have had pleasure to see him give lecture in full song at St James, Church in London. He discussed this at length and would say that it would be mighty hard for the average lay person (unless you are an academic par excellence) not to be convinced of his persuasive argument. Whether it is truth or not, that up to you! Here is a snippet from Bloodline of the Holy Grail: -

"Another example is the concept of the Virgin Birth. English-language Gospels tell us that Jesus's mother Mary was a 'virgin' and, as we understand the word, it denotes a woman with no experience of sexual union. But this was translated not from the Greek initially but from the Latin, which referred to her as being a virgo, meaning nothing more than a 'young woman'. To have meant the same thing as 'virgin' does today, the Latin would have been virgo intacta - that is to say, a 'young woman intact'.
Looking back beyond the Latin text we discover that the word translated to virgo (a young woman) was the old Semitic word almah which meant the very same: a 'young woman', and it had no sexual connotation whatever. Had Mary actually been physically virgo intacta, the Semitic word used would have been bethulah, not almah.

So, have we been completely misguided by the Gospels? No; we have been misguided by the English translations of the Gospels. Also by a Church establishment that has done everything in its power to deny women any normal lifestyle in the Gospel story. Hence, the New Testament's key women are portrayed as virgins, whores and sometimes widows - but never everyday girlfriends, wives or mothers, and certainly never priestesses or holy sisters.

Notwithstanding the Virgin Birth dogma, the Gospels tell us time and time again that Jesus was descended from King David through his father Joseph. Even St Paul explains this in his Epistle to the Hebrews. But Christians are taught that Jesus's father was a lowly carpenter, while his mother was a virgin - neither of which descriptions can be found in any original text. It follows, therefore, that to get the best out of the Gospels we have to read them as they were written, not as they have been interpreted according to Church doctrine and modern language."

Or see http://www.karenlyster.com/bookish.html

Enjoy,


S
Slither~~~~~

[Tayesin]

Hi All,
A physical virgin birth must be possible.  Especially if there is some 'messy' foreplay happening that does not include penetration.

I have heard people saying that they believe Mary was visited by an alien race (her reported Angel) that artificially inseminated her, which would also explain the scenario.

Although I have to go along with Lawrence Gardner's hypothesis, as this is the most plausible understanding.

Love Always.[]

[Eol007]

quote:Originally posted by Tayesin


Hi All,
A physical virgin birth must be possible.  Especially if there is some 'messy' foreplay happening that does not include penetration.

I have heard people saying that they believe Mary was visited by an alien race (her reported Angel) that artificially inseminated her, which would also explain the scenario.

Although I have to go along with Lawrence Gardner's hypothesis, as this is the most plausible understanding.

Love Always.[]

Gosh, if the Japanese scientists can make virgin rat mothers, then anything must be possible (God help us).

S [:O]

[darkangel13]

quote:EOL007: "Another example is the concept of the Virgin Birth. English-language Gospels tell us that Jesus's mother Mary was a 'virgin' and, as we understand the word, it denotes a woman with no experience of sexual union. But this was translated not from the Greek initially but from the Latin, which referred to her as being a virgo, meaning nothing more than a 'young woman'. To have meant the same thing as 'virgin' does today, the Latin would have been virgo intacta - that is to say, a 'young woman intact'.
Looking back beyond the Latin text we discover that the word translated to virgo (a young woman) was the old Semitic word almah which meant the very same: a 'young woman', and it had no sexual connotation whatever. Had Mary actually been physically virgo intacta, the Semitic word used would have been bethulah, not almah.

That is very interesting, EOL007[].  That does sound like a more realistic explanation, hehe.  I had actually been thinking that maybe, if she was in fact a virgin, Tayesin's response could explain it (the 'alien' part).  That sounds a bit out there, but hell, it would be an explanation, lol[]

-Kristina

[Eol007]

That is very interesting, EOL007[].  That does sound like a more realistic explanation, hehe.  I had actually been thinking that maybe, if she was in fact a virgin, Tayesin's response could explain it (the 'alien' part).  That sounds a bit out there, but hell, it would be an explanation, lol[]

-Kristina


[/quote]
Hi,

Just a bit of fun really, though more seriously are real truths more often or not hidden in myth? Here is an interesting link about the Graal and lots more. Might not suit those of a strict Christian disposition... as it has lots of arcane overtones. See: http://www.lanunda.com/

Bye,

S

P.S. Darkangel13 - Liked y'r homepage... different(with respect). Probably a generational thing. Oh I have a nephew around your age going free! He would appreciate your way of thinking. Is it OK if I send him via airmail from Ireland (collect). It would make his mother very happy [}:)]

[darkangel13]

EOL007:P.S. Darkangel13 - Liked y'r homepage... different(with respect). Probably a generational thing. Oh I have a nephew around your age going free! He would appreciate your way of thinking. Is it OK if I send him via airmail from Ireland (collect). It would make his mother very happy

hehe, thank you[]. yeah, i pretty much do my own thing and don't care about what others think about it... Do you mean send him the link? Feel free to, although most of that page isn't updated at all.  For some reason, almost a year ago Geocities decided not to let me update anymore.  Just a couple weeks ago it let me update again, so I've been working on it on and off lately.

quote:Here is an interesting link about the Graal and lots more. Might not suit those of a strict Christian disposition... as it has lots of arcane overtones. See: http://www.lanunda.com/

I'll have to check that site out in depth.  I looked at the main page and it looks pretty cool[]

-Kristina

[exothen]

EOL007,

quote:But this was translated not from the Greek initially but from the Latin, which referred to her as being a virgo, meaning nothing more than a 'young woman'.

The Greek uses the word parthenos of Mary, which means "virgin." There are also other Greek words used whose meaning depends on the context they are used in. There are also the following phrases that are used: "knew her not" (Matt. 1:25); "before they came together" (Matt. 1:18); "I know not a man" (Luke 1:34). Those all mean that Mary was a virgin.

quote:So, have we been completely misguided by the Gospels? No; we have been misguided by the English translations of the Gospels.

Both the English and the Greek make it clear that Mary was a virgin and remained so until the birth of Christ at which point she and Joseph consumated the marriage.

quote:Hence, the New Testament's key women are portrayed as virgins, whores and sometimes widows - but never everyday girlfriends, wives or mothers, and certainly never priestesses or holy sisters.

Mary is portrayed as the mother of Jesus and his brothers and sisters. Elizabeth is John the Baptist's mother, granted she isn't really a key figure. And of course they were never portrayed as priestesses or holy sisters because there were none at that time. That is just a fact of Hebrew culture. Why should the Bible portray something that would have been totally historically false?

quote:But Christians are taught that Jesus's father was a lowly carpenter, while his mother was a virgin - neither of which descriptions can be found in any original text.

I have already shown that the "original" texts teach that Mary was indeed a virgin. As for Joseph:

Matt. 13:55, "'Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?'" (see also Mark 6:3).

The Greek texts teach that Joseph was a carpenter and that he was decended from the line of David. There are hundreds of years inbetween Joseph and David.

quote:It follows, therefore, that to get the best out of the Gospels we have to read them as they were written, not as they have been interpreted according to Church doctrine and modern language.

It follows that Church doctrine is correct on all matters discussed since it agrees with the Greek texts. It is evident that the author of this article does not know either the Bible or history very well.

[Lighthouse]

Okay, here's another twist...

I'm sure Exothen and a few others will bash me on this one but I'm going to take my chances.  

I know a woman who wrote Episodes of Enlightenment whose name is Marjorie Joyce and she has been channeling stories of Jesus' life for many years, this is one of the stories she tells.  No this version is not verifiable in the bible... this is from the channelers word only.

Mary was one of the Essenes, a very spiritual Jewish sect that was highly into astrology and watching the stars.  They knew for a long tome that there would be a miracle birth and that Jesus was coming.  This is why the 3 wise men knew... they were also Essenes.  

Mary was betrothed to Joseph at a very young age and he loved her his whole life, was very close to her and had a close relationship with her and her mother.  Mary's mother Ann was very protective of her daughter and getting drunk and sleeping around was not really in the script.  When Mary was impregnated, an angel came to Joseph to tell him that Mary was pregnant and Joseph was happy because he knew that something like this would happen, he just didn't know it would happen to him & his beloved Mary.  Mary was like 13 yrs old at the time, Joseph was much older.  Anyway, I believe the story of the Virgin birth as we understand it... With God anything is possible.  If we can spontaneously heal our bodies, why not?

I have also heard the account that a virgin according to the language at that time was just an unwed woman but I still believe the Virgin birth to be true... I didn't always believe this and things may change but for now...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Kerri

[Eol007]

Hi all,

Interesting thoughts indeed! Incidentally did you read Gardner's lecture notes as it is worth looking at a number of issues relating to not only the virgin birth but also to the debate of the messianic bloodline and the house of David etc. You don't have to buy into his opinion, yet it is a scintillating piece of study and worth revisiting.

Also look up the derivation of the masonic term 'son of the widow' – or the widow's son.

Cheers,


Stephen

[Leyla]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that our concept of "virgin" is completly different from the ancients.

Many goddesses Ishtar, for instance, were referred to as "Heavenly Prostitute" as well as "Virgin."

***But how can that be???!!!***

Sex was an act of Worship.
You Worship the Goddess by having sex with her.
The Priestess is the Goddesses representative on Earth.
Sex with a Priestess is Worshipping the Goddess.

A man would go to the temple, find a priestess, "worship" her, then make a donation to the temple. This act of homage was thought to bring him great magickal benefit and blessings. Wealth, Power, Healing, Global Conquest, whatever, he need only outstretch his hand and Glory was his for the taking.

I think this passage explains things best (Taken From Mythologies Last Gods)

"Temple nuns were no more prostitutes than participants in (the communion) are cannibals. Historians who describe them as "sacred prostitutes" are perhaps unintentionally comparing another cultures religion unfavorably with their own.

(Fundamentalist) Jewish customers of the nuns had rationalized away the holy women's sacramental function by viewing them as common prostitutes. The compulsory offering that patrons of the temple were required to make to the goddess the Jews regarded as a harlots fee for services rendered.

Since the priestess/nun was transformed into the Goddess in the way the holy sacrament is transformed into the body of Christ. The nun was thus *A PERPETUAL VIRGIN* whos copulation's were always with her bridegroom and god even though to nonbelievers such as the (fundamentalist) Jews she appeared to be spreading her legs for all comers."

Jesus was no Fundamentalist Jew; he was a known radical.
He often spoke out against the conservative religious establishment.
And some say he was also a student of mysticism.

Keep in mind Judiah at the time was ruled by Rome. These two societies lived side by side. There is no way he could not have known the importance of keeping a divine female counterpart were he to become God and King.


This type of prostitution carried little stigma. Courtesans found their pervious career no hindrance to their careers.

-The Empress Theodora, wife of Justinian, began her career as a Temple Harlot. As an actress comedienne, dancer and prostitute she rose from utter obscurity to become Empress of the Eastern Roman Empire.

-St. Helena mother of Emperor Constine was a Holy Harlot before she became an Empress-Saint - She was also a Princess. Roman emperor Magnus Maximus was led to her by a dream.

-Olympias, mother of Alexander the Great, was a dancing priestess of Dyonisias.

Mary Magdalene: The Aramaic word Magdala translates to "temple" Magdalene meant "temple priestess" aka "Prostitute"

[darkangel13]

I am not a Christian, however I was thinking about how it is said in the Bible that Mary was a virgin yet birthed Jesus Christ.  A lot of people believe that simply because the bible says it (no offense meant towards any Christians), and a lot of people say they think she "got drunk one night and didn't remember getting impregnated".

 From a metaphysical perspective, it could be possible that Mary was in fact a virgin with child.  The question I propose is this: How could that happen, if that were in fact the case?  It wouldn't happen under normal, physical circumstances, but if it were to, how might that happen?
Any ponderings are welcome[]

-Kristina