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Author Topic: Afterthought: 2012  (Read 40662 times)
Ben K
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2005, 23:22:46 »

Excuse me for asking, and i dont mean to sound cynical or anything, but why not just do what that one lady did and find out the lottery numbers in the astral? then, you can move to panama or something and you wont have to worry about any war or any of that crap.
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EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE
Frank
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2005, 23:50:46 »

Lottery numbers, lol, it doesn't work.

I suppose the person in question just got lucky and they happened to be into that kind of thing. Like, someone does their family's birthdates and they win. So the winning solution is to do your family's birthdates the same way, nope, it doesn't work, unfortunately. Energy stocks are definitely a safer bet, I reckon. :)  As I say, roll on 150 USD a barrel!

You can experience the notion of winning as a concept in F4oC, ha ha ha, but I haven't found a way yet of "seeing" the future. Not as a concrete entity. As a series of likely probabilities, yes, but not as a definite, written in stone kind of thing. I'm not saying it is definitely impossible, but in my experience I'd judge it to be highly unlikely, put it that way.

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2005, 23:50:46 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Wronski Feint
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2005, 09:25:46 »

Quote from: UniOne
The time of  true judgment is at hand... You see... Humankind has always felt a vibe on thing yet to come...

I will say this much... the 144,000 are dying... you know one of them well...

Hollywood has overestimated the rapture a lot... It's not a spontaneous taking of believers, it is a death count of the 144,000 people who are purest of light...

When they die, the spiritual gates will flood open... and entities will be able to at last take presents in the physical plane once again... thus expanding the Light/Darkness war...

As a member of the Balance, and as the legendary Uni-One, I urge you to cling to your faith... For the time of great judgment is close at hand....

Our 2000 years are up...


HeHe, omg I just read this, its helarious.  My thoughts about this:

Listen up here pal, do you know how many people die in a year? do you think all of them are evil or somthing. People 'of the purest light' have been dying scince humans existed.  Just think about children and babies alone in a year, who die of deseise and other problems.  There has probaly been lots more then a 144,000 innocents to die for a while know, and guess what-im not wearing my highwaters or heading for the hills.  

Im all for reading signs of the end but you gotta just get over it, yes the world will end eventually woopy doo. But it wont be long (by universal standards) before it starts back up again.  

And what is 'The Balance'? Lemme guess? A seceret orginazation to protect mankind against the forces of evil.  Blah Blah ok ill play along, you a great warrior of light sent from the Hevans to save humanity.  Thanks.  Get off it, youre just human.

Sorry if this seems like bashing, but its kinda naive to think we humans are more important to the universe, than a hill of ants are to us. But i guess its good to beleive in somthing, so whatever.
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And power was given to him over the whole of the earth, to clense with mind, with sword, with light and by the love of the earth.
data
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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2005, 10:57:25 »

Quote
Im all for reading signs of the end but you gotta just get over it, yes the world will end eventually woopy doo. But it wont be long (by universal standards) before it starts back up again.


I see this philosophy endorsed by many spiritual people. Yes, even though the soul is eternal and cannot be destroyed. It does not mean we completely forget our physical responsibilities and our social responsibilities. As long as we are here we have certain duties to fulfill.  What can be more noble than saving the souls of others and yourself.

Suppose hell freezes over the next day. Suppose there are apocalyptic wars. Suppose society collapses. Suppose we have to constantly hear the howling and crying of others every moment, because of the immense misery the "end" has brought. How do you think that will affect your soul? Won't it be so easier to just lose your mind.

Everything that happens in our lives has an effect on us. If we are suddenly overcome by vast negativity. How do you think that will affect us. We carry this burden with us to the other worlds as well. So never neglect your physical. It is important as any other aspect of being.

Quote
Sorry if this seems like bashing, but its kinda naive to think we humans are more important to the universe, than a hill of ants are to us. But i guess its good to beleive in somthing, so whatever.


We are very important to the universe. Even the ant is. We are here remember.


If there is a problem in life, deal with it. If you don't, the problem won't just go away by it's own. The attitude "prevention is better than cure" is even better. A lot of the problems in society today only take a collective effort to cure them, and to prevent them from growing further. Apathy is not a solution; it's an escape.
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karnautrahl
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2005, 15:52:39 »

Sometimes there are problems, that you just don't have a way to solve. Then what?
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2005, 15:52:39 »



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data
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2005, 20:09:27 »

Karun, I am of the belief that no problem is insurmountable. Yes, difficult perhaps, but definitely not unsolvable.

Let's put it this way, even if you were to fall into hell by losing your mind,  you will still overcome it. Most of the problems today can be solved by simply stopping them from growing. If you want to stop weeds growing - what do you do? You uproot them. If you simply cut them at the top, they will grow back again.

We need to uproot the source of problems in the world today by mounting a collective effort to do it. All problems may seem different on the surface and and unrelated. However, what these problems really are, are manifestations of the social consciousness. Rising oil prices, terrorism, dysfunctional families, corrupt governments to teenage pregnancy. These may all seem like very different problems - however, originate from the same source. The social seed.

So it is our society we need to transform, by concentrating on the root problems of our social psyche, and all other minor problems will cease as well. The root is ignorance. No it is not Iran. It is not oil. It is not climate changes. It is not religion. It is not even corrupt governments(who elected them in the first place?) it is ignorance. Plain ignorance.

As soon as people wake-up to who they are, what reality they live in, what consequences their actions have, and how they relate to the universe and take control of their lives, and the well being of society, the problems will cease. This requires as I said earlier; an awareness campaign.

In some ways there is already an awareness campaign of the ushering in of the new-age belief systems. However, they are not enough, and have not actually helped make us wiser. I think they have made many dumber and credulous.

These are unregulated systems. There are so many modalities, and internal competition between sects, groups.  There are so many charlatans who claim they are in contact with interdimensional or extraterrestrial beings. There are so many commercial companies tainting the reputation of the new-age by selling useless merchandize like "Activate your Kundalini in 30 days" or  "How to teleport"  or "winning lotteries with magic"  Unfortunately, a lot of it is blind faith. Ask someone when they say "We are going to ascend into the 5th dimension" why they think this; they won't know.

Then there are those(more relevant to this discussion) who think love is the answer to all their problems. I recall when I had a conversation quite similar to this,  with a friend of mine(a single mother) of the violations of civilian rights by the state, and what does she think we should do about it. Her answer was "Send the state love and the problem will heal itself" after I tried to interject some reality, she said "Don't talk negative"

So many people seem to be sleep walking these days. Living in bubbles-universes. Hiding from reality.  This leaves the people who are awake. Those who know there is something wrong. Yet, are not lifting a finger to do anything, either because they think it is futile or they are waiting for someone else to do it, or because they have lost faith in physical reality, need to do something. Then there are those who know people are sleep walking and are taking advantage of them(governments, corporations etc ) molding them into place, playing on their naivety, getting them to sign away from their freedom and their mind. I don't think these governments are accountable. I have respect for these governments. I respect them because they are awake.

However, it could be much worse than it is today. We could be living in dark-techno realities. We could be micromanaged or linked to computers(a matrix of sorts) we could lose our individuality completely. Where do you think the latest trend of human microchipping is heading. I agree with no_leaf_cover, the changes in US domestic policy is a lot like the third Reich. The changes in international geopolitics are a lot like the changes before WWII.

However, if nobody does anything about the human condition today, then what I outlined as the worst, could actually become a reality. As they say those who don't learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it.
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Aileron
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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2005, 20:20:19 »

the frightening thing is, almost one-third of the population of the U.S. believe enough in the coming signs, of the end of days, that they will do nothing to stop them. Meaning, if our world gets bonked up, its the way it is supposed to be I guess.
So, many of us who want some beautiful epiphany to occur, to create some better solutions to the waning circumstances of our world.

Its hard to help each other, when many of us dont mind the bad things, because faith tells us that God will take care of his flock.

We are living in a perpetually intentional degenerating world....

There are many ways for us to wake, to cut the sleep from our eyes and "reveal" what is really going on....but then again, who can tell when they have awaken and when they are still asleep?
A lot of people out there feel they understand, that they are "awake" but in reality to others of us who feel differently, they are not, and vice versa....
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Wronski Feint
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2005, 00:04:04 »

Quote from: data

I see this philosophy endorsed by many spiritual people. Yes, even though the soul is eternal and cannot be destroyed. It does not mean we completely forget our physical responsibilities and our social responsibilities. As long as we are here we have certain duties to fulfill.  What can be more noble than saving the souls of others and yourself.


I dont have 'duties' I choose what to do, God didnt make me a grocery list and send me to the store.  I agree with saving other souls, but not for the sake of being noble.  You should do it because that soul needs help and youre not just walking up to someone and unloading a bunch of stuff about the world ending and they need to make peace, because maybe thats not what they need to hear. Now if god did intend for me to help people then I will see the people who really need help and I will help.  But still, its a cycle its going to end, you shouldnt be surprised when it does.

Quote from: data

Suppose hell freezes over the next day. Suppose there are apocalyptic wars. Suppose society collapses. Suppose we have to constantly hear the howling and crying of others every moment, because of the immense misery the "end" has brought. How do you think that will affect your soul? Won't it be so easier to just lose your mind.


If there will be apocalypitc wars then ill deal with that when it gets here.  I dont think the end will be that terrible, ist not like the world will burst into flames and we all die a slow and painful agonizing death so we can go to heaven.  Yet i beleive it will be natural and not as literal as the bible says, there will be symbolic events that occur. And itll probaly be quick and painless, to the ones who dont deserve punishment.  Yes itll be nice to just quit and scream with everyone else but thats not me.  How will it affect my soul? If i get backed up into a corner, i fight. So if all this pain and suffering is around me and it starts to push against me then I will just fight it away.

Quote from: data

Everything that happens in our lives has an effect on us. If we are suddenly overcome by vast negativity. How do you think that will affect us. We carry this burden with us to the other worlds as well. So never neglect your physical. It is important as any other aspect of being.


Negitivity is a mindset brought on by things that happen to us.  Its not a cloud of poisiones gas, so we must realize that negitivity only exist in our minds and push it out, or in other words 'get over it'.  No, I dont thik we carry it on, our state of being will change with every world that we go to, fear, anger, happines, sadness are all earthly states of the soul and when we travel to other worlds we will get new feeling  and leave the other ones. So it depends on where you go to depend on how you feel.  I cant neglect my physical for i am in the physical so, thats like saying dont neglect air when i got to breathe.

Quote from: data

We are very important to the universe. Even the ant is. We are here remember.

Im gonna have to disagree on this.  Being here has nothing to do with our importance.  Of course this made me think of somthing else.  How do we know when the worlds ends, it ends for everything.  Im sure the dinosaurs thought the world ended, when it was most of their entire poplulation.  So if every human dies, then we think the world has ended,b ut really the universe and earth just reneiws itself.  

Quote from: data

If there is a problem in life, deal with it. If you don't, the problem won't just go away by it's own. The attitude "prevention is better than cure" is even better. A lot of the problems in society today only take a collective effort to cure them, and to prevent them from growing further. Apathy is not a solution; it's an escape.


Im not sure this is directed toward me, or everything single thing that you wrote is exactly directed toward me (if not im sorry for wasiting text).  But i dont have a problem with life. I like it, its going pretty good so far.  I know a problem wont go away on its own.  But their will be problems and always be problems in life and I accept that.  No matter what state of mind I have.  

Well, thats it for this post. Have a nice day.
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"Come and See"
So I looked, and behold a dark angel.  And the name of him was Life, and Hell fell before him.
And power was given to him over the whole of the earth, to clense with mind, with sword, with light and by the love of the earth.
Frank
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2005, 00:52:39 »

Quote from: data
If you want to stop weeds growing - what do you do?


You stop calling them weeds.

Yours,
Frank
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data
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2005, 07:07:11 »

Quote
dont have 'duties' I choose what to do, God didnt make me a grocery list and send me to the store. I agree with saving other souls, but not for the sake of being noble. You should do it because that soul needs help and youre not just walking up to someone and unloading a bunch of stuff about the world ending and they need to make peace, because maybe thats not what they need to hear. Now if god did intend for me to help people then I will see the people who really need help and I will help. But still, its a cycle its going to end, you shouldnt be surprised when it does.


Actually, you do have duties. You play a role in society. Everyone has their duties and responsibilities. I don't say god chose them for you. I think you chose them yourself even before you incarnated.

Quote
How will it affect my soul? If i get backed up into a corner, i fight. So if all this pain and suffering is around me and it starts to push against me then I will just fight it away.


It is much difficult to walk the walk than it is to talk the walk. Not everyone of us have this resolve. You may be very unique or you just maybe just like everyone who claim they would do such and such if x,y or z happened, and when it does happen, they cower in the corner. Very recently I witnessed a very dramatic demonstration of this. In front of my house formed a mob of youths, one of them was beating up this guy, and this carried on for some 5 min, the guy was covered in blood. He did not lift a finger to fight back. After it was over, the guy actually went with the mob. Bizarre. (In-fighting?)

Around two or three days later. The guy(the victim) came back with his own friends to show his blood stains. Suddenly he was a hero. He was laughing about them, ridiculing them and telling exaggerated stories, and promising revenge. Yet, I know, that when it all happened, he just let himself get beat up and was so scared, he went along with them after it was over.

I personally could not make such a claim. As I don't know whether I would cower in the corner or fight.  Remember, all of our claims, thoughts, beliefs and ideas are tested throughout life. There is a lot of power in words. Be careful what you say.

You may feel very differently when it becomes real. It won't just be a hypothetical anymore. Even the most spiritual of people may find themselves treading on others to ensure their survival. In times like these, our survival instincts are kicked into gear. As I said, it becomes so much easier to lose your mind. Why allow it to happen in the first place?

Quote
Negitivity is a mindset brought on by things that happen to us. Its not a cloud of poisiones gas, so we must realize that negitivity only exist in our minds and push it out, or in other words 'get over it'. No, I dont thik we carry it on, our state of being will change with every world that we go to, fear, anger, happines, sadness are all earthly states of the soul and when we travel to other worlds we will get new feeling and leave the other ones. So it depends on where you go to depend on how you feel. I cant neglect my physical for i am in the physical so, thats like saying dont neglect air when i got to breathe.



I respectfully disagree. Fear, anger, happiness, sadness are not just earthly states. They are feelings of your soul. It is an archetypal language of the soul. The soul does not speak in words. It speaks in feelings and in thoughts. That is why it is alive - because it feels. It is sentient. You will feel no matter which plane of existence you are in. Personally, if what you said would true, it would negate our sentience. I know what it is to like not to feel(or think you are not feeling) it's quite miserable.

Do you believe in astral projection. Have you astrally projected? If you have, then you may agree with me, that you retained memories from the astral. You may also agree with me that you retained your physical memories in the astral. What does this tell you? It tells you that you retain your memories even in the other worlds. This is what decides where you stand in the astral hierarchy. If you have low vibrations you may find yourself in the lower astrals in what have been popularly called the hellish dimensions. If you have high vibrations. You may find yourself in the higher astrals in what has popularly been called the heaven dimensions.

Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita that the physical plane is the karma field. It is here many souls incarnate to earn karma and to transform themselves. The actions we perform here determine our karma. It could be said that our soul memories is our karma. When we pass away, perhaps god's judgment, is really you judging your own life as it flashes by you, and your judgment then, where you can never have been more honest with yourself, then decides where you will go.

Therefore, wouldn't it be so much better that your social environment facilitates a a positive mind. A negative environment will have a negative effect. Unless you have the inner will power and resolve of Jesus, who retained his purity even when society crucified him. There are not many of us who can do this. So, it is important you help others, to help yourself and help yourself to help others. This means caring about your world and looking after her.

Quote
Im gonna have to disagree on this. Being here has nothing to do with our importance. Of course this made me think of somthing else. How do we know when the worlds ends, it ends for everything. Im sure the dinosaurs thought the world ended, when it was most of their entire poplulation. So if every human dies, then we think the world has ended,b ut really the universe and earth just reneiws itself.


This recalls to me an Indian philosopher, Kanada, who propounded the theory of atomism. There is a childhood story about Kanada, that really touched me. It goes that one day while at the Ganges, where pilgrims were making offerings of flowers and rice in temples, Kanada saw how grains of rice were littered all around the streets. He started gathering these grains one by one, and soon a crowed of curious onlookers gathered around him, wondering what he was doing. A learned sage passing by noticed the crowd and say Kanada incessantly picking up these grains. He then questioned Kanada as to why he was picking up these worthless grains of rice, that even a beggar would not care to pick up. Kanada then said "However minuscule an object maybe, it is nonetheless a part of this universe. Individuals grains of race may seem worthless, but a collection of just 100 grains makes a person's meals. The collection of many meals feeds an entire family. Ultimately, humanity is made up of many families, thus even a single grain of race was as important as all the valuable riches in the word"

So, however vast this universe may seem, it is nonetheless made up of so many minuscule parts. Thus the ant is important. And so are we. We are all expressions of the same universal life energy. We are all important. That is why we are here.

Quote
Im not sure this is directed toward me, or everything single thing that you wrote is exactly directed toward me (if not im sorry for wasiting text). But i dont have a problem with life. I like it, its going pretty good so far. I know a problem wont go away on its own. But their will be problems and always be problems in life and I accept that. No matter what state of mind I have.


Problems ARE a part of life - so ARE solutions. So accept that too Smiley






Frank, and by not calling it a weed, will that make it any less of a weed Wink
Obviously, the weed existed before somebody called it a 'weed'
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Wronski Feint
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« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2005, 21:29:44 »

If you just stop calling them weeds then youre gonna have a strange unammed plant growing in your yard. wink

Well, data, were just gonna have to agree on dissagreeing.  Im not gonna think the same way you do and you dont think the same way I do.  No hard feelings, i respect the fact that you have beleifs and you are willing to argue them.  We just have different perspectives of this world. Smiley
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So I looked, and behold a dark angel.  And the name of him was Life, and Hell fell before him.
And power was given to him over the whole of the earth, to clense with mind, with sword, with light and by the love of the earth.
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« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2005, 22:01:39 »

Data:

My comment was meant to reinforce the fact that you are placing a value judgement upon a plant. In the same way you are attempting to place a value judgement on other people's experiences.

It's all very well reiterating these cute little stories about indian gurus or whatever. But there is a big wide world out there full of real people in real situations. If someone should choose to employ themselves in the act of picking up grains of rice from the floor and gain satisfaction from that, then good luck to them. It's not my thing but, then again, it takes all kinds to make a world. And, after all, it beats firing missiles at each other, lol.

You say you will feel emotions regardless of what plane of existence you are in. Erm, that's not strictly correct. The discussion of which would be off-topic for the thread, but maybe you should think again on that. You say that emotions are not earthly states, but they are objective communications, so that would strongly suggest a physical state. Anyhow, that's by the by.

I was wondering where you got all this info from? You appear to subscribe to all these "vibrational" theories so I'm guessing you are into a religious belief system of some kind.

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2005, 22:18:20 »

Quote
It's all very well reiterating these cute little stories about indian gurus or whatever. But there is a big wide world out there full of real people in real situations. If someone should choose to employ themselves in the act of picking up grains of rice from the floor and gain satisfaction from that, then good luck to them. It's not my thing but, then again, it takes all kinds to make a world. And, after all, it beats firing missiles at each other, lol.


But Frank! But Frank! IS it not clear that the rice grain story is a metaphor of a seriously important fact, namely that the change begins with the individual doing what's right despite how silly and futile it may seem at the moment.

It's not necessarily picking up actual grains but definitely living and treating others the way that is conductive to the delelopment of humanity and society.


But I think you were being sarcastic  Cool  so no worries.

2cents & L&L
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« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2005, 09:33:56 »

Wronski Feint, that is fair enough. However, not all of what I said was belief. Some of what I said what logic, where 2+2 = 4. If you tell me 2+2 = 5, then is it just a matter of that it is just our beliefs, or am I right and you are wrong or viz-versa. Personally, I think there are rights and wrongs in this universe. We can't all be right and we can't all be wrong.

Quote from: Frank
Data:

Quote
My comment was meant to reinforce the fact that you are placing a value judgement upon a plant. In the same way you are attempting to place a value judgement on other people's experiences.


No, I am simply calling a weed a weed. I never said it was good or bad.

Quote
It's all very well reiterating these cute little stories about indian gurus or whatever.[ But there is a big wide world out there full of real people in real situations./quote]

These Indian gurus are real people from real situations living very real lives.  We can learn from their wisdom. As we can learn from anyone.

Quote
If someone should choose to employ themselves in the act of picking up grains of rice from the floor and gain satisfaction from that, then good luck to them. It's not my thing but, then again, it takes all kinds to make a world. And, after all, it beats firing missiles at each other, lol.


Jiljola has hit the nail on the head. This is not about the actual act of picking up grains of rice from the floor, it is a metaphor for even the smallest of things are as important as the biggest of things and how small things lead to big things.

The universe may seem vast and it easy to think of ourselves as insignificant relative to it. Yet, without those minuscule atoms, there would be no universe. A garbage man may think of himself as insignificant relative to a lawyer, but without that garbage man, who is going to clean the garbage.

We all play a role in this society and in this universe. We are all important to this universe. This is more about accepting ourselves for who we are. It is not about belief.

Quote
You say you will feel emotions regardless of what plane of existence you are in. Erm, that's not strictly correct. The discussion of which would be off-topic for the thread, but maybe you should think again on that. You say that emotions are not earthly states, but they are objective communications, so that would strongly suggest a physical state. Anyhow, that's by the by.


The operative word here is 'objective' The others planes of existence, are just that, other planes of existence.  As long as you can observe, you exist separate from the observed. In the same way a wave in an ocean has a separate existence from the ocean.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, as I am not sure if you support Bruce interpretations and experiences, but Bruce has talked about 'astral wild life', 'astral civilizations' and 'astral meetings with other souls' If this was a subjective plane, how could you have objective experiences?

I am inclined to believe everyone else, especially the yogis, when they say the astral is just a subtle world, and it is not the only subtle world. That makes the most sense to me.

Quote
I was wondering where you got all this info from? You appear to subscribe to all these "vibrational" theories so I'm guessing you are into a religious belief system of some kind.


I get my data from research, reading, analyzing, intuition, experiences. Personally, my philosophy is that I do not create any of the knowledge, I only create the interpretations, which are uniquely mine. No, I do not have any "religious belief systems" I simply read a lot and share what is relevant from my knowledge.

As for "vibrational theories" this is more of a fact, then it is belief. Everything in the universe is a vibration. What may seem to be different phenomena, has all arisen from a super phenomena. In contemporary physics this is believed to be a super-force or super-strings.
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« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2005, 10:58:27 »

How does the discussion above apply to the discussion of solving the worlds problems, and is assigning values of "good" or bad" or "right" just arbitrary and relative.

It is a very sensitive affair to assign value judgments to actions and behavior, as many people consider morals and ethics to be relative, and further morals and ethics often echo the dogma of religion.

However, it would be wrong to say that we do not have personal and social morals or ethics or definitions of right or wrong. We do. This is what makes us intelligent. We can differentiate between two sets of  actions or behaviors. Some of our differentiations are socialized and some are innate to our species.

For Example, when someone slaps you for no reason. Many of us would react in anger or resentment, we would have no internal dialog, we would react by instinct. We will either fight or flee.  We would call this wrong, Yet, maybe in some hypothetical culture, being slapped is a greeting, so what was wrong, becomes right, because of a psycho-social construct.

Now, suppose instead of being slapped, you were stabbed with a sharp implement.  Again, it will trigger the fight or flee response. Now, again suppose this was a positive action in a hypothetical culture. No matter, how much your mind was conditioned,  your body will fight against it, it will tell you it doesn't like it and you will suffer pain. I don't like pain. I don't think you do either.

So therefore we have found something that is universally wrong. Something we all relate to: pain. This is a language that transcends being. It was shown that even animals and plants suffer pain. We know this.

We know deep down in our being, that if we wrong another, they will feel pain, as we would feel the same if they wronged us.

Stealing
Raping
Murdering

These are all the major wrongs of all religions. These are also social crimes. They're wrongs and crimes for a reason.  Yet, why is killing animals not a good reason "to be wrong" it's exactly the same thing. We are causing pain to animals. They are feeling pain. We are doing it, not for survival, but for sense gratification.

Perhaps deep down we know this too. Pure intellect is where we correctly differentiate between right and wrong. Maybe this is what karma is - our memories of all our actions and thoughts, and when we review these through pure intellect, we arrive at the same rights and wrongs.

Now, consider what is at hand in this topic. Apathy vs proaction. Is apathy right or wrong? Better put, is being indifferent, inactive, passive, right or wrong?

To answer this, I recall a real life illustrated example of human apathy in action, in my psychology textbook. It was shown a woman was stabbed by a man in broad day light amongst people. The woman screamed, yelled for help, nobody did anything. They just watched. In, fact nobody even called the police. This went on for 5-10 min and everyone just watched. The woman ran, the man ran after her, and continued stabbing her and then left. She died on the spot.

This woman's life could have been saved. Someone in this crowd could have easily have intervened or called for help. None of them did. Were any of these people accountable for what happened to the woman?

Yes, very accountable. They did nothing to help the woman. They did everything for the man by not helping the woman. They were part of the problem - not solution. When we hear about cases like these, we sometimes feel a disgust for people like this. It's only because we know it is wrong. Apathy is wrong.

So, when someone says that apathy is their perspective, and we should just agree to disagree, because it's all relative anyway. What they really are declaring is they are going to be a part of the problem and that is wrong as far as my being is concerned. So, the worlds problems are ours to solve. We should contribute in solving them. By doing even a small bit. Even if it as small as simply saying there is a problem.

However, being apathetic is only contributing towards our problems. Unless, you want to be accountable for our future, you should do something to help others and this world. It is not only noble. It is right. And if it is right for the world and for others. It is right for you.
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« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2005, 16:26:57 »

Data:

You were speaking of weeds relative to them being uprooted. If that's not you placing a value judgement then I don't know what is. With respect, I cannot have a discussion with a person who seemingly forgets what he says from one post to the next.

I hear all you say about "the astral" and such. You obviously subscribe to a number of traditional belief-systems in that regard, which, if I may respectfully point out, don't quite add-up when you look at the facts of the wider reality. "Astral Realms" is a belief construct that is acted out typically within Focus 2 of consciousness. There are no astral realms that exist as an independent place. As I say, the notion of astral-realms is a belief construct that people engage within a particular area of consciousness.

Your ideas about the observer existing separate from the observed are, erm, interesting, lol. I can see you are making the same basic mistake virtually everyone makes (including myself at one time, I freely admit) namely, that objective reality is something that exists apart from ourselves. Unfortunately, that is another one of those ideas that’s pretty much universally believed, but rather incorrect.

You mention about Bob Bruce’s experience regarding the “astral” but his forte, if you like, is primarily real-time zone, i.e. physical reality or Focus 1 of consciousness (as I term it in my Phasing Model of Consciousness). Bob Bruce openly admits to having leant on the traditional Eastern beliefs when it came to his interpretation of states of reality other than the real-time zone.

Just an idea:

Perhaps it might be better for you to pay more regard to actually experiencing rather than reading stuff on the Internet. Because usually everyone just parrots everyone else, and everyone puts their own little spin on it. And because very few people, by comparison, have actually experienced the wider reality in its fullness, not in the narrow interpretations that people commonly subscribe to, most people are left arguing over one belief construct or another. This is what I see happening here. In that situation, who is to say that any one set of beliefs is any more valid over another?

Many times, I see two or more people debating their different beliefs about the wider reality and each party to the debate believes they are correct. But, in fact, when I compare what they are saying to what actually exists, they are both wrong and often if there are several people, they are all wrong!

You see, this is what happens when you do not place hands-on experience as your absolute number 1 priority. Talking about people picking up grains of rice, for example, is very cute, it’s very quaint and it makes people go awww, just like they do when they see a little kitten or a new-born baby. But in the wider scheme of things, it doesn’t even figure... and it doesn’t make you right about the wider reality either! LOL.

Yours,
Frank

PS
How can “vibrational theories” be fact? That’s a contradiction in terms, surely. At first, I thought you’d made a typo, or something. But what you say just doesn’t add up.
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« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2005, 16:47:01 »

As this has now gone way off-topic I'm moving it to Chat.

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2005, 17:07:18 »

Jouni:

I appreciate your observations, but I'm not sure if I want to debate the point. I would argue that every individual actually does what's "right" and that "right and wrong" are mere value judgements that others try to impose on other individual's experiences.

I've had "right and wrong" types of debates on the forum in the past, as I find them quite enjoyable if they are on a topic that interests me. This thread has possibilities and I've been watching it build, but I'm not all that taken by it. I tend to adopt the position of "standing up for the underdog" as it's a pretty powerful debating standpoint. But Data has dug himself into that position and it appears to be holding (for now).

I've moved it to Chat to allow a bit more of a free-for-all and, who knows, I might carve a little niche for myself a some point. The 2012 issue has been done to death several times, so I'm not all that fussed about the thread being highjacked as the original topic ran its course. But no disrespect intended to the originator of the thread, Alexd.

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2005, 19:09:25 »

It's very interesting to me how much attention this date gets. I mean, it has been done to death, and still the controversy persists- from the people who believe, the people who don't believe, and it seems everyone else in between. I'm extremely curious as to weather anything of any great significance actually happens. LOL, at this point though, wouldn't it be kind of disappointing for January 1, 2013 to come, and realize, wait a minute... nothing exciting happened. I mean, with all of this build-up?  Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2005, 20:15:48 »

Hi:

Your response touches on a point I was making earlier, where people point out "changes" and, in a sense, "accuse" change of taking place. Next they use this "change" as evidence that the end of the world is nigh. But there has never been a time in history when change did not take place!

Global warming is the latest fad that is steadily gathering steam. But when we had global cooling, i.e. an ice-age, there was no Internet and no-one is around now to say, look, guys, ten-thousand years ago when I was born, half the planet was covered in ice a hundred foot thick. So what's the big deal over a bit of ice they call Greenland, or whatever.

Problem being, every generation thinks they invented everything. But people such as myself have heard all this before. Oh, but wait, they say... at which point I say, "No, stop there, don't tell me: you were about to say that this time is different, right?" And they think, how the heck did he know we were going to say that?

In a sense I hope the world does end in 2012. At least we won't have to hear any more of this ridiculous, end-of-the-world drivel.

But we all know the world will not end, and the doom and gloom protagonists are going to roll out the same tired, sad old excuses they've been rolling out for god knows how long. Yet another "date" will emerge, and I'll be saying the very same, and they'll say no, but wait... at which point I'll be gagging, resisting the urge to puke, saying stop there... you were about to say that this time is different, right?

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2005, 08:29:28 »

Even if nothing happens, we'd come to know why the hell timeline stops there...... (McKenna's)

Or somebody will find out a silly mistake in his calculations ?  And perhaps extend the timeline to 3013 or 4014 cheesy
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« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2005, 09:11:01 »

Quote
were speaking of weeds relative to them being uprooted. If that's not you placing a value judgment then I don't know what is. With respect, I cannot have a discussion with a person who seemingly forgets what he says from one post to the next.


If I have weeds growing in my garden. I will uproot them. Most will. That does not mean they are categorically bad. It means that they are bad for my garden Wink

Quote
Your ideas about the observer existing separate from the observed are, erm, interesting, lol. I can see you are making the same basic mistake virtually everyone makes (including myself at one time, I freely admit) namely, that objective reality is something that exists apart from ourselves. Unfortunately, that is another one of those ideas that’s pretty much universally believed, but rather incorrect.


It is not that I don't agree with you. I do. Reality is a paradox. It is quasi-objective and quasi-subjective. It exists outside in and inside out. This is not a new idea. Again, those Eastern systems you shun, simply because they are ancient, declare the same truism, that we the self is simply the microcosm of the objective universe. However, as much as this maybe true at a profound level of reality, it is not true for our objective physical. As I was saying to Ben K Bscosfriend's topic  reality is consists of multifarious realities, each separate and relative from the other. The physical is an objective reality. The astral is an objective reality. There is only one subjective reality. That is the non dual absolute.

I do exist separate from the observed. Otherwise how do I observe in the first place? If this is all a subjective reality. Then why do you share my subjective reality? Or are you just a figment of my imagination?

Quote
I hear all you say about "the astral" and such. You obviously subscribe to a number of traditional belief-systems in that regard, which, if I may respectfully point out, don't quite add-up when you look at the facts of the wider reality. "Astral Realms" is a belief construct that is acted out typically within Focus 2 of consciousness. There are no astral realms that exist as an independent place. As I say, the notion of astral-realms is a belief construct that people engage within a particular area of consciousness.


I am not qualified to comment on whether you are right or wrong about what the astrals are like. I believe you are wrong. I don't know that you are wrong.  Heck, I don't even know for a fact yet whether there is an astral. When I am able to astrally project, and have experience and knowledge that incontrovertibly proves that the astral is indeed an objective reality, I will refute you. I can say however, the vast of evidence for the astrals, both ancient and modern, from a range of witnesses show that the astrals are indeed objective realities and places, where astral beings can interact with other astral beings and entire civilizations and cities exist.

If you think it is a subjective plane of existence. How can people have objective experiences? Now, I have insight into your beliefs I gleaned from reading some topics and reading your conversations,  it turns out when someone suggested the astrals were completely subjective, you laughed at them. I am quite confused as to what you believe in. Perhaps you would like to elaborate for me.

Quote
You mention about Bob Bruce’s experience regarding the “astral” but his forte, if you like, is primarily real-time zone, i.e. physical reality or Focus 1 of consciousness (as I term it in my Phasing Model of Consciousness). Bob Bruce openly admits to having leant on the traditional Eastern beliefs when it came to his interpretation of states of reality other than the real-time zone.


Perhaps, there is something to the traditional Eastern beliefs. As so many seem to be learning from it and verfying it. Everything from Chakras, Kundalini, Meditation and of course the astrals etc. Including our very own Bruce. Have you ever considered this possibility, or is all about how you interpret it? Are you suggesting, by the way, that Bruce's experience were all his imagination showing him what he wanted to see?

Suppose I learn from your system. And then corroborate your system. Doesn't that just mean that I was influenced by your beliefs, and saw just that. Henceforth, you will never be able to prove your system. As it is completely subjective. However, it is easier to prove Bruce's system, by having an objective experience, and to test this, by making two astral projectors meet at the same location in the astral. I believe this has already been done and I have personally read many accounts of this. Unless, you are claiming they imagined each others imaginings Wink

Quote
Perhaps it might be better for you to pay more regard to actually experiencing rather than reading stuff on the Internet. Because usually everyone just parrots everyone else, and everyone puts their own little spin on it. And because very few people, by comparison, have actually experienced the wider reality in its fullness, not in the narrow interpretations that people commonly subscribe to, most people are left arguing over one belief construct or another. This is what I see happening here. In that situation, who is to say that any one set of beliefs is any more valid over another?


No offense, but you're from the  internet as well, telling me everything I have read from everyone else, on the internet, in books, in ancient texts, is incorrect? Why should I believe you, or give your statements more value than the yogis, Bruce and others. Why are you right and everyone from ancient to modern is wrong? Surely, you should have considered the possibility, that it is more likely you are wrong, given the fact of how many are saying otherwise. Do you even test your beliefs. Or do you simply have to just say it/think it?

Quote
Many times, I see two or more people debating their different beliefs about the wider reality and each party to the debate believes they are correct. But, in fact, when I compare what they are saying to what actually exists, they are both wrong and often if there are several people, they are all wrong!


Umm, you say "you see two or more people debating their beliefs about the wider reality and each party to the debate believes they are correct" and then you say "But in fact, when I compare what they are saying to what actually exists, they are both wrong and often if there are several people, they are all wrong"

Why is it that their statements are beliefs. And your's are facts?

Frank, it almost sounds like you are saying "Im right, everyone else is wrong" and if you are, I hope you can substantiate that for your own sake.
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« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2005, 09:29:58 »

Quote
Global warming is the latest fad that is steadily gathering steam. But when we had global cooling, i.e. an ice-age


Global warming is global cooling. It is definitely not a fad and there is evidence to show that the green house effect and CO2 emissions have accelerated the rate at which the ice caps melt. In fact, I believe, it was reported recently how sea levels are rising and how there has been an increase in melting of ice caps. Having said that, most scientists agree that it could be still hundreds of years before they do melt. While, there are some, who caution against a sooner ice age or a temporary ice age.

The movie "Day After Tomorrow" in which all kind of weather anomalies occurred before the disasters, is actually based on a book by Art Bell(and another)  and not to alarm, but all those precursor weather anomalies have taken place and are still taking place today.

Now as to my own beliefs on 2012. I personally don't believe the world is going to the end. However, I do think before 2012, there will definitely be some unfortunate global events. I think it is reasonable to expect the unfortunate, considering the state of the world today. It may culminate in 2012. I am not holding my breath on this date though.

Please read this for further information:

Quote
Published on Friday, January 30, 2004 by CommonDreams.org  
How Global Warming May Cause the Next Ice Age...  
by Thom Hartmann
 
While global warming is being officially ignored by the political arm of the Bush administration, and Al Gore's recent conference on the topic during one of the coldest days of recent years provided joke fodder for conservative talk show hosts, the citizens of Europe and the Pentagon are taking a new look at the greatest danger such climate change could produce for the northern hemisphere - a sudden shift into a new ice age. What they're finding is not at all comforting.

In quick summary, if enough cold, fresh water coming from the melting polar ice caps and the melting glaciers of Greenland flows into the northern Atlantic, it will shut down the Gulf Stream, which keeps Europe and northeastern North America warm. The worst-case scenario would be a full-blown return of the last ice age - in a period as short as 2 to 3 years from its onset - and the mid-case scenario would be a period like the "little ice age" of a few centuries ago that disrupted worldwide weather patterns leading to extremely harsh winters, droughts, worldwide desertification, crop failures, and wars around the world.

Here's how it works.

If you look at a globe, you'll see that the latitude of much of Europe and Scandinavia is the same as that of Alaska and permafrost-locked parts of northern Canada and central Siberia. Yet Europe has a climate more similar to that of the United States than northern Canada or Siberia. Why?

It turns out that our warmth is the result of ocean currents that bring warm surface water up from the equator into northern regions that would otherwise be so cold that even in summer they'd be covered with ice. The current of greatest concern is often referred to as "The Great Conveyor Belt," which includes what we call the Gulf Stream.

The Great Conveyor Belt, while shaped by the Coriolis effect of the Earth's rotation, is mostly driven by the greater force created by differences in water temperatures and salinity. The North Atlantic Ocean is saltier and colder than the Pacific, the result of it being so much smaller and locked into place by the Northern and Southern American Hemispheres on the west and Europe and Africa on the east.

As a result, the warm water of the Great Conveyor Belt evaporates out of the North Atlantic leaving behind saltier waters, and the cold continental winds off the northern parts of North America cool the waters. Salty, cool waters settle to the bottom of the sea, most at a point a few hundred kilometers south of the southern tip of Greenland, producing a whirlpool of falling water that's 5 to 10 miles across. While the whirlpool rarely breaks the surface, during certain times of year it does produce an indentation and current in the ocean that can tilt ships and be seen from space (and may be what we see on the maps of ancient mariners).

This falling column of cold, salt-laden water pours itself to the bottom of the Atlantic, where it forms an undersea river forty times larger than all the rivers on land combined, flowing south down to and around the southern tip of Africa, where it finally reaches the Pacific. Amazingly, the water is so deep and so dense (because of its cold and salinity) that it often doesn't surface in the Pacific for as much as a thousand years after it first sank in the North Atlantic off the coast of Greenland.

The out-flowing undersea river of cold, salty water makes the level of the Atlantic slightly lower than that of the Pacific, drawing in a strong surface current of warm, fresher water from the Pacific to replace the outflow of the undersea river. This warmer, fresher water slides up through the South Atlantic, loops around North America where it's known as the Gulf Stream, and ends up off the coast of Europe. By the time it arrives near Greenland, it's cooled off and evaporated enough water to become cold and salty and sink to the ocean floor, providing a continuous feed for that deep-sea river flowing to the Pacific.

These two flows - warm, fresher water in from the Pacific, which then grows salty and cools and sinks to form an exiting deep sea river - are known as the Great Conveyor Belt.

Amazingly, the Great Conveyor Belt is only thing between comfortable summers and a permanent ice age for Europe and the eastern coast of North America.

Much of this science was unknown as recently as twenty years ago. Then an international group of scientists went to Greenland and used newly developed drilling and sensing equipment to drill into some of the world's most ancient accessible glaciers. Their instruments were so sensitive that when they analyzed the ice core samples they brought up, they were able to look at individual years of snow. The results were shocking.

Prior to the last decades, it was thought that the periods between glaciations and warmer times in North America, Europe, and North Asia were gradual. We knew from the fossil record that the Great Ice Age period began a few million years ago, and during those years there were times where for hundreds or thousands of years North America, Europe, and Siberia were covered with thick sheets of ice year-round. In between these icy times, there were periods when the glaciers thawed, bare land was exposed, forests grew, and land animals (including early humans) moved into these northern regions.
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« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2005, 03:04:21 »

Ha ha ha, "The Movie" everyone tends to quote the movie.

Err, sorry to burst your dream bubble but the movie is a work of fiction!

Oh know, don't tell me, "If it weren't that real then we wouldn't have a movie about it."

This is amazing.

When someone uses a work of total fiction as evidence for the existance of what they say is a factual phenomenon... and people wonder why scientists take the tinkle out of us.

If we are to gain any credibility at all in the scientific world (which I hope) we are going to have to do better.

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2005, 03:12:13 »

Oh, and you say that before 2012 there will be some "unfortunate" global events.

Ha ha, give me a 5 year time period in the history of our world when there has not been some "unfortunate" global events. That's just the fudge concept of all time. It's ridiculous.

So we are then to denounce the advent of the "end of the word" in 2012 on the basis that "unfortunate" events have happened in the meantime?

That's the biggest piece of fudge yet!

Yours,
Frank
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