Are some LD's actually AP's?

[Kanes Messenger]

I believed that LD was always internet, and AP always a projection into the 'outer astral realm'. One dream yoga teaching keeps saying that since our body is lifting out of the physical in sleep a bit, the dream world and lucid dreaming is in the astral. I could see it being in the same density of physicality, but internal rather than astral.

A small differentiation, but a big impact, Thoughts?

[Xanth]

I believed that LD was always internet, and AP always a projection into the 'outer astral realm'. One dream yoga teaching keeps saying that since our body is lifting out of the physical in sleep a bit, the dream world and lucid dreaming is in the astral. I could see it being in the same density of physicality, but internal rather than astral.

A small differentiation, but a big impact, Thoughts?

I drop all of those labels... and I make it very easy.

Any experience you have in a reality which you consciously identify as not being this physical reality is a "projection" (you don't need to qualify it with "lucid", "astral" or anything else...).

And when you get right down to the nitty gritty, even this physical reality experience you're currently having right this very second... is a projection.

[Kanes Messenger]

I drop all of those labels... and I make it very easy.

Any experience you have in a reality which you consciously identify as not being this physical reality is a "projection" (you don't need to qualify it with "lucid", "astral" or anything else...).

And when you get right down to the nitty gritty, even this physical reality experience you're currently having right this very second... is a projection.

Thanks for the reply,

Yeah through lucid dreaming I have learned that life is also a dream that operates under many of the same principles even though it might not seem like it. I've only had a couple close AP encounters that were extremely intense and short, yet I've had many long lucid dreams but they weren't the same experience really. I found similarities but I noticed many teachers like robert bruce who teaches both AP and LD claims they are definitely not the same 'realm' of experience even though it's a projection.

EDIT: Found an article about it by robert bruce http://blog.astraldynamics.com/2009/11/30/the-differences-between-real-time-and-astral-obe-and-lucid-dreaming/

Really cool integrates what you were saying about both just being projections, he finally says the AP is more of a physical/astral body double, whereas lucid dreaming is more of a mental projection, however the lucid dream can have astral experiences and the asrtal realm is also overlapped with the mental so can ironically go both ways.

[Xanth]

Thanks for the reply,

Yeah through lucid dreaming I have learned that life is also a dream that operates under many of the same principles even though it might not seem like it. I've only had a couple close AP encounters that were extremely intense and short, yet I've had many long lucid dreams but they weren't the same experience really. I found similarities but I noticed many teachers like robert bruce who teaches both AP and LD claims they are definitely not the same 'realm' of experience even though it's a projection.

I think if you stop being overly analytical about the experiences, you'll find MUCH MORE similarities than differences. 

As for Robert Bruce, I'll just put it plainly... He is wrong.  But he's wrong within his own paradigm.  He BELIEVES what he says, so meh.  No biggie.
Robert Bruce and I don't agree on very much. 

EDIT: Found an article about it by robert bruce http://blog.astraldynamics.com/2009/11/30/the-differences-between-real-time-and-astral-obe-and-lucid-dreaming/

Really cool integrates what you were saying about both just being projections, he finally says the AP is more of a physical/astral body double, whereas lucid dreaming is more of a mental projection, however the lucid dream can have astral experiences and the asrtal realm is also overlapped with the mental so can ironically go both ways.

Robert Bruce is STUCK on this concept that he's a spirit IN a body and that his spirit is comprised of many different bodies.  He's very much of the classical projection mindset.
I'm beyond that kind of thinking.  It holds him back from recognizing the truth of reality.  It's too self-limiting.  That, and he's a pure fear monger.  Again... whatever.

http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2015/09/03/is-astral-projection-just-a-form-of-lucid-dreaming/

Give that a read.

[Lumaza]

Thanks for the reply,

Yeah through lucid dreaming I have learned that life is also a dream that operates under many of the same principles even though it might not seem like it. I've only had a couple close AP encounters that were extremely intense and short, yet I've had many long lucid dreams but they weren't the same experience really. I found similarities but I noticed many teachers like robert bruce who teaches both AP and LD claims they are definitely not the same 'realm' of experience even though it's a projection.

EDIT: Found an article about it by robert bruce http://blog.astraldynamics.com/2009/11/30/the-differences-between-real-time-and-astral-obe-and-lucid-dreaming/

Really cool integrates what you were saying about both just being projections, he finally says the AP is more of a physical/astral body double, whereas lucid dreaming is more of a mental projection, however the lucid dream can have astral experiences and the asrtal realm is also overlapped with the mental so can ironically go both ways.

They are both "projections", but I find also that they take place in different ,as Kurt Leland says, "Otherwheres".
  http://www.kurtleland.com/astral-projection-log/orientation/133-overview-of-planes-and-bodies

My LDs seems to be in a parallel dimension similar to this one. My physical exit OBEs always begin in the RTZ, then they normally stay of a more physical body related nature. My conscious APs seem to take place more on a "mental" level, where I find myself more of "point of consciousness".

Kurt Leland is the only one so far that I can totally relate too. Well Kurt and some other members here on the Astral Pulse Forums.

I agree with Xanth though, Robert Bruce does do a lot of "fear based teaching". I try to avoid that kind of negativity at all costs.

[personalreality]

Echoing Xanth, they're all projections, ditch the labels. Expanding on Xanth, drop "projections".

You're not projecting anything. I hate that word.

You're just changing the focus of your attention. Right now you're "looking" over here. In your dreams and APs, you're "looking" somewhere else.

Forget about trying to nail down what you're experiencing and experience it, right?

You are like me in that regard. I've always been so cerebral. I HAVE to define my reality constantly. It's overthinking. No good. It's taken me years to let go of my obsessive need to identify and define everything. I've really had to commit to just saying f**k it and watch what happens without trying to quantify what happens.

[no_leaf_clover]

Are blue and green the same thing?  In some languages there is only 1 word to describe these 2 colors as we distinguish them in English.  "Objectively" light is a spectrum and all the colors merge seamlessly into one another.

My point is that states of consciousness are probably similar.  We could make lots of distinctions if we want, but then if we have to justify those distinctions in some way, what could we use?  Best I can figure is that if you can AP, come to my house and tell me something that you couldn't have otherwise known, then I will consider what Robert Bruce calls the "real time zone" and consider it distinct from a lucid dream.  But beyond that I'm not sure how you would distinguish the two in real terms.

[personalreality]

Are blue and green the same thing?  In some languages there is only 1 word to describe these 2 colors as we distinguish them in English.  "Objectively" light is a spectrum and all the colors merge seamlessly into one another.

My point is that states of consciousness are probably similar.  We could make lots of distinctions if we want, but then if we have to justify those distinctions in some way, what could we use?  Best I can figure is that if you can AP, come to my house and tell me something that you couldn't have otherwise known, then I will consider what Robert Bruce calls the "real time zone" and consider it distinct from a lucid dream.  But beyond that I'm not sure how you would distinguish the two in real terms.

^word.

[Kanes Messenger]

I should have known this would turn into a philosophical masturbation lol   all your answers were helpful and insightful thank you. I see what you are saying about not needing to understand it, however in my case AP is too hot to handle, and LD is easy as pie. If they're the same thing then I guess I don't need to learn AP because there would be no point.

Let me reiterate my question - My only AP attempts where cancelled do to an extreme vibrations and I couldn't even handle it (too much emotional leakage from the heart and crown). I've never had anything like that in a lucid dream. Not even close, but I bet it's not hard to do either. One commonality in my dreams is that there are always what dream yogis call 'karmic traces' basically just subconscious emotional mental residue(but with present moment awareness, the karmic traces fade and you can have spiritual experiences). AP half exits I had I could see my room with my eyes closed but couldn't do this in an LD. So in my subjective experience it appears that lucid dreams start as karmic traces, emotional stuff from your day but with enough awareness can be transformed into a spiritual breakthrough which seems to transcend limitation thus transcending the labels as you say. Whereas AP is directly jumping into that higher state without the dream as a transition. As Xanth was saying in his blog. So a big question is about how most people report seeing waking world in their AP's, people places and events actually happening and its verifiable. Haven't heard about that type of experience from an LD yet.

New question: What is your subjective experience with the difference between AP and LD if any? Are they the same?

[Xanth]

Throughout my life, I have experienced "dreams" (duh, who hasn't?  hehe), "lucid dreams", and "astral projections/obes".
However, it wasn't until I experienced ALL of those "labels" within a single experience that everything began to make sense.
The FEELING of each "layer" was very much entirely different... the dream felt like a dream, the lucid dream felt like a lucid dream, and the astral projection felt like an astral projection.

I found that the key to going from one "level" (that's such a horrible term) to the next was a simple increasing of my awareness, becoming closer to what my waking awareness is.  The pinnacle being the point at which you attain your waking awareness, yet you're still non-physical (aka: an astral projection).

It's ALL based around how aware you are.  That's it.  People try to over-complicate the matter by adding all these supposed layers and requirements... when it's really just as simple as "how aware were you?"  We humans love our over-complications, don't we? 

So, from that... I determined that the terms we use to describe all these events (dream, LD, AP, OBE) are meaningless and truly do not even exist in the first place.
There really is only the experience of awareness.

The big question which comes to my mind then is... Where is my "waking awareness" when my consciousness is currently experiencing a "dream awareness"?  Why do I have to bother "increasing" my awareness in the first place?  I have yet been able to find a suitable answer for that one.  LOL