Do You Believe in Guns?

[Anonymous]

Another thing I wanted to mention is that, if someone, say, a thief or a gang member, saw you walking down the street with a sword, and for some unlikely reason they are unarmed, who are they going to go after first? You or a guy walking a few feet behind you who could potentially have a gun in his coat? They know you are armed. They don't know about the other guy. Plus, you don't have to kill with the sword, necessarily, if you are trained properly. You could swing the backside at someone and incapacitate them first. Or you could just keep the sword in its sheath and use that to knock them over. Or rather than carry a sword, you could carry a long staff, which could have the same effect.

I agree the spiritual path is the best one. Call me one of little faith, but I believe that there are moments where it's either a kill or be killed situation. A suicide-bomber or terrorist for example. If they have a gun pointed at your head, there's little chance you're going to be able to convince them they should reconsider killing you in the few microseconds you have to make a decision. So what do you do? Try to incapacitate them when the moment arrives. If you kill them accidentally then so be it. You may be saving more lives in the future.

"Everything you see or hear or experience in any way at all is specific to you. You create a universe by perceiving it, so everything in the universe you perceive is specific to you."

-Douglass Adams

"Shaolin men and women NEVER give up!"

[Qui-Gon Jinn]

Forbidden or not, I carry my lightsabre with me everywhere - of course I normally keep it beneath my robe out of view for people....  
http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/starwars/starwars043.gif" border=0>

- Your focus determines your reality -

[Ides315]

Hey, all

Good lively debate.

My 2cents

There is nothing wrong with guns in the hands of competent people. We own several. I did not follow the whole thread, but if it has not been brought up, statistics show a more peaceable society where everyone was generally armed. There is a county in the South Eastern US that has a law that every household shall have a servicable firearm. There crime rate is limited to graffiti, and and very minor auto breakins. (Car unlocked, with valuables present). I had the dubious pleasure of knowing someone from New York City who was a thief. He moved out the the "wild west" of the US, and decided to become a more law abiding citizen, as the laws here are much more free about personal protection.

The problem is in the respect other people have for things, including other humans. I like the prayer story about the girl, but not all of us have that connection (or more specifically know how to access it). I doubt that I will ever "need" mine, but they are there. In the US, our supreme court has determined that the police do not have to come and protect you, and in some kind of riot situation that is impossible. Who does that leave materially to protect your family. Yes, there is God and divinity, but if he "gives" you the tools, didn't you recieve help?

Just my thoughts

[x_wolf19]

for protection.....hell yes!

[Anonymous]

Man is on rooftop because of flood.  Helecoptor flies by to save man. Man replies "No thanks, God will save me." Water rises to 2nd story of house. Raft floats by. People on raft try to save man. Man replies, "No thanks, God will save me. Water rises to gutters. Boat floats by. People in boat offer to help save man. Man replies,. "No thanks, God will save me. " Water rises. Man drowns and dies. Man gets to heaven, asks God, "Why didn't you save me, God?" God replies, "You fool! I tried to save you several times! I sent you a helecoptor, a boat, and a raft! What more do ya need?"

See the analogy here?

"Everything you see or hear or experience in any way at all is specific to you. You create a universe by perceiving it, so everything in the universe you perceive is specific to you."

-Douglass Adams

"Shaolin men and women NEVER give up!"

[dovelady]

I live in Idaho and yes it is acceptable to carry a gun openly, but you have to have a permit to carry concealed.
I was raised to respect a gun, because they can kill you.
I also have used a gun to kill rattlesnakes, but that is all.  I imagine I could kill the type of snake that walks, if I had to.
Where I live, we hardly ever even lock our doors, unless away from home.
One more thought on the subject...the first thing Hitler did to the German people was to disarm them.....think about that!
dovelady/mary

pray for peace.

[PeacefulWarrior]

I was thinking the other day about this topic again and I thought of this:

Imagine if someone had tried to ban "clubs" back in the day, or swords or muskets.  Were they ever banned? Of course not.  Will guns ever dissapear?  Of course not.  It's technology.  Soon they will have casless ammo and they are already working on electric pistols and an array of other large and small arms that use shock waves, etc.  So soon we will be talking about banning electric guns, etc.  Of course this is just the "guns don't kill people, people do..." argument looked at in a different light.  It's the behavior, the psychopaths, that do the killing.  I do agree with laws that restrict who can own a gun, and where you can carry one...but banning guns?  It's really abusrd, despite all of the good intentions.  

Anyway, I really respect peoples take on this subject no matter what it is.  Should we have weapons of any kind?   No.  We should destroy them all...but as long as we have "bad guys" we need to protect ourselves.  I know that's a contradiction of sorts, but that's just the way it is...will it always be "that way"?  That's a really good question.

fides quaerens intellectum

[PeacefulWarrior]

I am interested to see how the numbers stack up in here.  As my name implies, I am a peaceful person.  

I abhor violence and always try to look for the most rational and peaceful way out of any conflict.  I do, however, believe strongly that men and women have the right to bear arms and defend themselves.

I won't get into all the constitutional issues, but suffice to say that no matter how anyone feels, according to our current 2nd Amend. rights, we have the right to bear arms.

I myself own several firearms, which are stored safely out of the reach of children, and know how to use them safely and properly.  I enjoy the sporting aspect of firearms when I am at the target range spending time with my friends or my father.  I also have defensive firearms which are used primarily to defend my family at home or on the road.

I support certain gun control laws that attempt to keep guns out of criminals hands, but I am well aware that the truth is that even if guns were completely banned, criminals would get them anyway.

Where do you all stand on this issue?  

-Dan

fides quaerens intellectum

[Hans Solo]

Quick answer from a US citizen:

 Guns in the US were never just for hunting like the more ant-gun types would want you to think.  It was the final check in the checks and balance system of US government.  IE:  the citizen holding guns stopped the government from getting out of control too fast.  The way the Federal Government has been passing anti-constitutional laws lately, they may be need sometime in the future.  Remember: Criminals will ALWAYS have access to guns.  You will only take them out of the hands of the well intentioned.

Also,  MASS MURDERS AGREE, GUN CONTROL WORKS: (all banned guns before they slaughtered their defenseless citizens)

-Stalin
-Hitler
-Mao

 Want to end the violence in America, then end the War on Drugs.

Hans Solo

[beavis]

I believe in guns because I believe in the people of USA more than its government, and when the people's rights are written away in laws made to benefit the law-writers, they should take them back by force if necessary.

[Makaveli]

I believe in guns and target shooting is one of my favorite hobbies.  I eventually plan on getting a concealed weapons permit.  When it comes to guns and self defense it's better to have a gun and never need it then to need a gun and not have it.  But using a gun in self defense should be a last resort if your life is in danger and there are no better options like running away from a threat.  

Gun control just doesn't reduce crime it actually seems to make it worse.  Just look at how well banning guns has gone in Washington D.C. which is the murder capital.  Taking guns away from law abiding people just makes it easier for criminals to prey on them.    

According to this link guns are used in America about 2.5 million times a year in self-defense compared to less than 30,000 gun deaths from homicide, accidents, and suicide.

[Hans Solo]

i think the book Machaveli is referring to is "More Guns Less Crime" by a Yale professor I believe.  Great book.  I am super surprised by the responses on this board.  I thought that 99% of the people here would be extreme liberals that hate guns and embrace communism/socialism.  I am closer to the views of an Ann Ryand, and am a libertarian (I also see this view here in a larger percentage than the population).

Wonders never cease,

Hans solo

[Scorpyn]

I'd actually like to change the question to weapons, not just guns.

If you carry a weapon and you for some reason do get into a tense situation, what do you do? Do you grab for the weapon or do you wait and see how the situation unfolds? I believe that in those cases where a person would carry a weapon because of fear of getting attacked, that's the cases where he would also use it. It's simple really - carry a weapon and you can use a weapon, don't carry a weapon and it'll be impossible to use. If you grab a weapon, what will your "enemy" do? Grab a weapon himself perhaps, thereby "proving" that he actually intends to kill you?

Fear makes you bring a weapon. Fear makes you use it. Once you use it, the fear will spread even more. Do you honestly consider fear to be good? If you don't, you shouldn't carry a weapon.

I do realize that there are extreme cases where you are under a specific threat and you really do need weapons to defend yourself, but in a normal day to day life you shouldn't need or want easy access to weapons for the reason of self defence. If you really do need it, something is seriously wrong with the society. If you think you need it but you really don't, then something is even more wrong with society.

Many things have several uses. A pencil is usually used for writing, but stick it in someones eye and it's a weapon. A knife can be both designed as a valuable tool and be made as a pure weapon, a hand can be used for punching and for greeting someone. If you bring anything that can be used as a weapon because you are afraid and you want a weapon for self defence, then you should reconsider what you are doing imo.

[Makaveli]

Scorpyn,

It would really depend on the situation there are a million factors that could influence what should be done.  If possible it would be best to try and get away or deescalate the situation.  I would only draw a weapon if there was a deadly immediate threat to my life where an attacker has the ability and opportunity to inflict deadly force and I have no other choice.  

Often pulling out a gun is enough to scare an attacker away and end the situation without violence.  According to the link I referenced criminals are wounded or killed by armed citizens only 8% of the time when they pull a gun.  So it looks like most instances of self defense with a gun do end with non-violence.  

I don't have a weapon out of fear, I've never come close to needing one, and I don't expect to.  Crime does happen and there is no way of determining whether or not you will ever be in a situation where you have to defend yourself.  I prefer to have a gun for the same reason I use a seatbelt I hope I never need it but it's nice to have just in case if I ever need it.  Like I said before I would rather have a gun and never use it then get into a situation where I would need to protect myself and not have it.  

Just by looking at the statistics it's clear that many people have needed weapons for self defense and have successfully defended themselves, 2.5 million people a year defending themselves with guns is very significant.

[Scorpyn]

It's all nice in theory until you shoot a dangerous burglar who happens to be your wife or similar.

[Arcaenis]

I think guns are for people who are to week in the mind or the physical. If I had a choice of weapon and the choices were gun or melee sort of weapon, I would use a melee. It takes skill mentally and physically to fight with such a weapon. Anyone can shoot someone. I think they should tax the ammo of guns to $50 a bullet, that way people would have to time to think whether that person is worth spending 50 bucks on. I'm a proud owner of a set of katanas, and I'd choose them over a gun, anytime.

p.s. Just incase anyone says goodluck with your sword, I know how to use them...

[Makaveli]

It's all nice in theory until you shoot a dangerous burglar who happens to be your wife or similar.

Well if you're going to shoot someone you should be sure that they are actually posing a serious threat to your life which wouldn't be the case there.  I don't think it's just nice in theory less restrictive gun laws work well in reality.

[Scorpyn]

What kind of society would you prefer living in? One where everybody is controlled by fear or one where people don't attack each other because of morals and mutual respect? Would you prefer a dictator or Gandhi?

You say that you won't shoot someone until you have made sure that it's not someone dangerous. That may be true - you don't get a weapon to shoot someone, you get it to defend yourself in case someone attacks you - but if you let your fear control you enough to get a weapon, then the fear will help you shoot someone you didn't intend to shoot.

Let's say someone breaks into your house. You bring your gun, point it at him and tell him to leave. Next thing you know you're dead, because his friend who you didn't see thought you were going to shoot.

[Makaveli]

Of course I would rather live in a society where people don't attack each other and live without fear.  I would have no problem giving up my guns if the world were like that.  Unfortunately that's not the way the world is and restricting guns doesn't help the problem.  Crime isn't a gun or weapon problem, the problem is that this world has so many people who are willing to commit crimes against each other.  

My support for guns isn't based on fear.  I don't know about that hypothetical situation there could possibly be problems like that in rare situations.  But you are overwhelmingly more likely to successfully use a gun in self defense.  Say someone is coming at you with a weapon to kill you which is a more likely scenario, if you have a gun you have a much better chance at saving your own life.  The fact is that at least in America guns are used far more often to defend life then they are used to maliciously take life.  So why restrict guns if they are correlated to lower crime rates?

[Scorpyn]

I'm still not convinced. Why? Because if a criminal knows that it's likely that you're armed, he will be more likely to kill you instead of just trying to scare you.

[Makaveli]

Maybe if you're a cop or they somehow know that you're packing it would be that way.    The point of concealed carry is the gun is hidden so criminals would have no idea who is carrying.  So you have the element of surprise.  

Although that link I posted before showed evidence that criminals are less likely to mess with someone if they know the person has a gun.  A few facts about that from that link:

3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."42

74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."43

57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."44

Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.37
Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.38

Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,
Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.39

http://www.gunowners.org/fs0404.htm

[Scorpyn]

I don't doubt your numbers. Weapons do probably lower crimes. But at what cost?

It's like regular medicine. Fix the symptoms, not the problems.

[Makaveli]

I think fixing the problem doesn't involve guns.  As long as people are willing to kill each other they are going to find ways of doing it, it's been that way long before guns.      The world is so messed up because of social or spiritual issues. If we want violence to end those are the issues that should work on not weapons which are too widely available to ever get rid of.

[Scorpyn]

I think fixing the problem doesn't involve guns.  As long as people are willing to kill each other they are going to find ways of doing it, it's been that way long before guns.      The world is so messed up because of social or spiritual issues. If we want violence to end those are the issues that should work on not weapons which are too widely available to ever get rid of.

I agree  

[Nameless]

Oh hell, how is it we all agree on so much and yet argue for the life of scumbags. If we are all here to learn then getting your brains blown out for attempting madness/mayhem and murder on others WOULD be a massive lesson you could revisit in the afterlife. It would be such a wonderful world if everyone would lay down all weapons and fear and come together as a peaceful unit reaching ever higher spiritual goals. But according to our own stated beliefs or thoughts on this forum and many other places we ARE here to learn. You just aint gonna learn nothing when all's rosey and pink.

Okay getting seriouser.

1 Someone I think on the first page mentioned the upside down flag. The upside down flag, at least here in America has significant meaning, it is not a 'yahoosers madness'. I'll just let those who are interested look it up for themselves.

2 The second amendment was not included for the sake of personal defense against other citizens although we were/are expected and should be able to defend ourselves. And hey, if you don't want to defend yourself that's your right too.. It was in fact to keep the government in control. Our founding fathers were well acquainted with what happens to the citizenry when government has all the weapons.

3 Feelings. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what you have to do. Life isn't even living if you never have a challenge. Suck it up and do what's right and often what's right hurts. I NEVER want to have to shoot another person but if that person puts me in that position I'll just have to live with my choice and the consequences. All the tears and poor me's in the world won't mean diddly.

Having said that, this has been a very interesting conversation and very well-articulated by everyone participating, with the exception of myself. I find myself in agreement with much of the points made by both sides. In the end we can only avoid these situations much as possible and hope if we do find ourselves in a particular pickle we make the best decision possible.

Amazing this post was started 20 years ago.