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Author Topic: Dreams: First person vs. Third person  (Read 9752 times)
cainam_nazier
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« on: August 04, 2002, 16:52:24 »

Simply from my point of view.

Some things you are meant to witness and others you are meant to experiance.

Make any sence?


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Tom
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2002, 19:05:03 »

There have been dreams for me involving both. I will be one of the dream characters and then be an observer while going to another character. Then I will be that character for a while. Sometimes I am several of the dream characters in a sequence while just observing in between. It would be interesting to be more than one dream character at the same time while also experiencing them as separate.


 
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2002, 19:05:03 »

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jilola
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2002, 19:08:41 »

Ever observed yourself from the 3rd person POV?
I get a lot of dreams where I'm watching myself do things. Occasionally the POV flickers between 1st person and then back to the 3rd.
I wonder if these dreams aren't supposed to teach me something about my current state, a bit like saying "look here, this is how you are now"

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Tom
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2002, 19:11:55 »

Often when I am myself in a dream it is still from a perspective a short distance away. It doesn't really feel as remarkable as I imagine being in several places would be, though, because it still does not seem like actually being in a couple of places. It feels like I'm controlling my body from a perspective of being farther than usual from each part.


 
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jilola
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2002, 19:16:15 »

That's interesting. You can actually watch yourself from a distance while retaining control?
I can't control myself when I'm in the 3rd person POV only when I'm in the 1st person. I think what I'm seeing in these dreams is a simulation to play around with. I get to both watch and participate bu tnot at the same time.
Do you get instant replays?

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jouni
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2002, 19:16:15 »



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Tom
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2002, 19:28:06 »

Not quite instant replay. Often I will dream the same sequence of events more than once consecutively, with minor variations and changes in perspective. Usually when I dream of being 1st person singular it feels like I am behind and above myself and only directing my dream body. Usually my control of it is direct, like in my physical body, but sometimes I will just tell it what to do or to avoid doing. This is especially true when repeating sequences of events.


 
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jilola
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2002, 19:33:07 »

Astralmaster:I don't immediately recall a dream where I wasn't a participant. But I think seeing other people in a situation would be for us to learn something from their behaviour.

tom:Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Same scene but with some slight alterations.
What you refer to as 1st person singular sounds like my 3rd person but with the added ability to control the events.

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jouni
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Tom
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2002, 19:38:42 »

The distance between myself and my dream body varies from dream to dream. Sometimes it is so far that it is hard to see my dream body. Other times it seems like I am almost touching it. About half the time I am in it. All of the time when I am a character in the dream I can control my body as easily as in waking life. Then there are times when I am just watching other characters and cannot control them. There is no inclination to try to. When there is a gap between me and my dream body the distance often changes several times with the action in the dream. As the events come closer together I am closer to being in my dream body. When things slow down I go farther away.


 
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jilola
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2002, 19:44:25 »

Tom:I've noticed the varying distance as well. For me the distance and perspective always seems to maximize the emotional effect.
For some reason (and it maybe just bad memory) I don't think I've ever been able to affect the behaviour of anyone else except mine. I'm beginning to suspect that these dreams have actually been APs to the real time plane. It's like I'm aware but somewhat removed, between the states I guess.

Astralmaster:How are you related to the action when you're watching other people?

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Tom
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2002, 19:59:08 »

A while back I had a lucid dream in which I was trying to teach myself to fly. It was in a crowded shopping mall with many floors, and in the middle there was an open space with access to all the floors. A pole was in the middle of the area with shelves at the level of each floor. There was a woman in the dream who was watching me. My attempts were slow, hesitant jumps from one level to the next higher. She decided that if I could do it she could also and she flew with much greater confidence and skill than I did. It is possible that it was a real-time zone area and that the woman in the dream was another dreamer or a projector. In general, though, I would rather have my dreams be completely subjective and not on the real-time zones where anyone could wander by and see the sorts of trash in my mind.

Sometimes I control other people without inhabiting them in my dream. My fears and expectations of their bahaviour seem to strongly influence what they will do. Changing the expectations with full awareness of doing so has an immediate reaction. It takes more effort sometimes depending on how intense my expectations are felt.


 
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jilola
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2002, 20:06:08 »

Tom:That dream of yours is similar to something I've had every now and then. I sometimes get a dream where I'm running or riding a bike down a slope with ever bigger bumps The speed increases and I jump further and further until I come to a bump that ends with a *hugely* deep gorge. I fall into the gorge and wake up. I always have the feeling that I'm following someone or that someone is following me.

As for controllingother I'm totally incapable of doing it. The best I can do is get worked up trying to tell someone not to do what they're about to do. They always do it and my character (me that is) has to go along with them.

Trash? I don't quite agree. OK, the content may not alway be of the highest quality but what do the people wandering into our RT projections see? If what we see is allegorical or symbolic the wouldn't they see something relevant to them?

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Tom
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2002, 20:29:29 »

That didn't occur to me, that if other people look into my mind they would not see the contents in a completely unfiltered way. It would be more like going out in public wearing somewhat translucent clothes instead of being completely naked. Other people might not get the full content of my mind, but it would still not be good. Then there is the fact that when going out I will tend to find mostly people whose mental condition is similar to my own.

Controlling other people in my dreams seems to be a matter of controlling myself and seeing the effect in an external form, the actions of other people. It is usually something I do during repetitions of dreams when wanting to direct the action in a new way. It borders on being lucid, in that I almost know it is dreaming, but it just feels like having done a thing before and gotten certain results.

Going downhill is as scary as going up, I guess.


 
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jilola
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2002, 20:35:31 »

Now that didn't occur to me.  If the people wandering into our Rt creations are the ones who have similar emotional content then we should feel relief that there are others with the same "crud" in their minds. And even in ths case they may not see what we see but a representation that makes sense to them. This borders on solipsism but meybe there is something to that view of the world after all?

I once had a dream of being in the middle of a firefight at an airport. the others stormed over a lobby whle I deciced to stay behiund desperately trying to stop th eothers as well. They looked at me in dismay and made it clear (no words) thhat I can choose the way I die and left. I don't need to get into detail how bad I got the sharp eend of a gun? But I couldn't stop them.

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jouni
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Tom
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2002, 20:48:39 »

What I want to know about is the experience of first person plural in a dream. Being more than one identity at the same time and interacting between those characters would be interesting.

The trouble with trying to control dream characters comes from feeling separate from them. I think I just answered my question about techniques for telekinesis. Same thing, right?

A book on lucid dreaming I read said that it is as important to be aware of the space that objects and characters occupy rather than just the content of the dream. It also said that there are many aspects of dreaming in waking life, and that lucidity was just as important when awake as when asleep.


 
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jilola
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2002, 20:55:51 »

The best thing akin to a lucid dream I've experienced in the waking world is looking at a tree on a windy day. If you just gaze at the tree without focusing on anything and calm your mind you see every single moving leaf separately but you still retain the idea of a tree. This is what we do in a lucid dream. We see everything at once and everything separately as a part of the total dream.

Regarding TK I don't have any personal experience at all. But I assume that the trick lies in perceiving the object and one self as the same yet separated by a distance.  Everything is connected and a reflection of the same so a pencil and you are aspects of the same.

2cents

jouni
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Tom
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2002, 21:09:07 »

My day at work is being very unproductive. I think I will clean up and go home soon.

I will try looking at a tree as you suggest.

A pencil will be the next step in learning TK. I'm trying to spin a piece of paper in the tip of a seweing needle.


 
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jilola
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2002, 21:12:16 »

Ok. Look a bit out of the cornern of your eye. And a whoe forest works even better. I can spend amazing amounts of time that way.

Sorry about being acccomplice to not being productive http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_shy.gif" border=0>

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2002, 01:09:19 »

I can recall two different 1st and 3rd person experiances.  One was a dream and the other a projection.

In the begining of the first I was a character in the dream and it was some what of a nightmare.  I had become rather worried at one point when I realized that the main bad guy was some one famous.  At that point the POV changed to a third person view so that I would truely know it was a dream.  I actually got to watch the rest of what happened and found it to be rather ammusing.  Like a bad horror flick.

The secound was during an AP.  In fact the only one I was aware during.  At one point while I was testing the new found mobility I had I was viewing the first and third person at the same time.  I believe that it was to show me that I was in fact in control of what was going on.  I remember running towards a wall I was going to jump off of.  I could see the wall comming but I was also getting the view of running towards it from above.  It made things difficult at first but I stated to think of it as "picture in a picture" function that some TV's have and it was easier to view.


David Rogalski
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astralmaster
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2002, 06:33:27 »

Hi,
I assume that this thread developed while i was asleep.
I have never actually had control over one of these dreams. Hence, they have never been lucid dreams. My original question was: what is the difference in the significance, between 1st and 3rd person dreams. I don't seem to have all the variations that you all get. The deference is solely between being a participant or an observer.

Cainam - many times dreams are only a function of what has been going on in my subconscious during the previous day.  

jilola- as I stated above, I am simply a observer (or participant)
please let  let me know what you think

David
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jilola
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2002, 16:27:40 »

Astralmaster: So you don't have any control over the events? I don't see any apparent difference except the point of view. Does the emotional content vary with the point of view? Cool as an observer and invlved as first person? How about the content of the dreams? Any similarity?

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astralmaster
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2002, 16:38:34 »

jilola,
That's why i find this situation so weird. I have no control what so ever. I don't think that i can pinpoint any physical or emotional similarity.
When i am an observer, i have nothing to do with the plot, it's like Iím invisible and watching from above.
I think that there has to be a fundemental difference between the two.


David
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jilola
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2002, 16:45:59 »

Ok, since there is no control the purpose of the dreams is to learn by observervation (if there is a purpose, that is).
Are you able to analyze your feelings or the events you are watching/participating in? Since you cannot influence the action it may well be that the clue is in the emotional state you are in during the dream.
Are the first person dream similar in any way to each other?
For these dreams to have a learning purpose they'd have to have something that runs through each dream.

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jouni
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astralmaster
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2002, 16:57:51 »

Wow!
That was a quick reply. I think what you're saying makes since. but then the question arises as to weather the dreams are real or just a mental process. Also, what you say about the emotional state make a lot of since to me because often I am left with a very strong feeling or emotion after the dream.


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jilola
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2002, 17:02:21 »

quote:
...but then the question arises as to weather the dreams are real or just a...

Good question. Does it matter?

Evaluate the dreams  in terms of the emotions you get from them and the content. I'd keep a journal on both types (diff. POV) dreams, on one side the summary of content and on the other the corresponding emotions and thoughts. If the dreams have a specific purpose there should be a pattern.
But sometimes the cigar is just that.

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jouni
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astralmaster
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2002, 08:52:42 »

Hi,
I was wondering: does anyone know the difference between a dream were I act out the dream myself, versus a dream in which I see other people acting out the plot (but not myself)?


Thanks


David
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