How To Build A Soul

[beavis]

If you drill deep into the consciousness of a new born child, you'd find that he faces a lot of confusion regarding whats 'he' and whats 'other'. The growth is mostly focused on his ability to differentiate himself from the surroundings. More isolation = more awareness.

Babies are stupid.

what I quote is not from the mouth a of baby. These are the views of scientists studying consciousness and its emergence seriously.

Its not relevant if the scientists are right or not. If the brain in a baby knows the difference between the baby body attached to it and other objects, could be completely caused by the baby brain being stupid. If consciousness is truly separated or not is not implied by this baby evidence.

Machines read it well enough without us reading them.  

They do read it, but the result is a superposition of all possible results until a person sees it. He collapses the wavefunction. We all know this....

You've found proof of the infinite universes theory? Show me. I dont want to see some page on theory. I want facts, with undeniable proof. How else could "we all know this"? At the most, we know there are multiple parallel locations that are probably much smaller than a universe.

You need to come up with a smarter reply instead of 2-halves thing. Because we all know that half of infinity is still infinity

you assume it is infinity. half of finite is finite. half of infinity is infinity. But its at least usually finite, since we can count electrons so well.

Back to the topic -
Why don't you try creating a soul on a computer?
I tried such thing once but failed (may be I was too lazy)

A single computer is about a million times slower than a brain.
I might try someday, but certain programs (that I've been working on) must be made first.

[Psan]

My guess is that it will be easier to simulate consciousness using some analogue system, as the dgital usually focuses on numbers and rules out QM components.
Or may be a hybrid of those two.

[beavis]

Analog systems are easy to build on computers. The biggest standard analog numbers on computers have about 15 significant digits, or as many digits as you want if you're willing to pay a high price in speed, but thats more than enough to describe any physical analog system... I'd be surprised if the circuits of an analog radio were accurate to more than 5 significant digits.

The things I'm building are mostly analog. For these types of programs that could maybe eventually become self-aware, its probably useless to use strict rules. I'm making tools that it might use to build more parts of itsself, and maybe replace some of its original parts, whatever "it" is. One of those tools uses a lot of little pieces of equations, like sine add exponent minimum etc, and some weird math-like functions that build other equations. It all goes into an equation, like add(sin(x), makeEquation(4,y)), but usually a much bigger equation, and they build bigger and bigger equations. I dont have to randomly mutate them like in evolution. From the start, its something that builds other things like itsself. It can even handle inconsistent equations like x = x/(2+2-4) + 2*x. The divide by 0 equals 0, and the value of x doubles every time its looked at. Could a self-modifying equation be called alive? I think so. You might say it has free will since it can have truly random inputs (from the computers clock), and I dont know what a self-modifying equation will do until it does it (a proven fact, look up "halting problem"). I dont know exactly what I'm trying to build, but when its finished it will be really weird.

[Psan]

I meant actual analogue systems, whose states are continuous not discreet. Even if we increase the number of bits to 1000s instead if 16/32 or 64 nowadays used in processors, it will be only an appoximation.
Digital systems can only simulate analogue ones.
Anyway your self-modifying equation seems to be interesting, so good luck.

[kenshinhan604]

there is ablance of life!!!!
lets not interfere!!!!!!!!!!!!
if we created souls then god can take a vacation?

[beavis]

Psan its not a digital system. Voltage in the computer circuits must change continuously, not discreetly. To be at voltage X then voltage Y with no time between breaks the laws of physics that were used to build the computer. Analog software is an analog approximation on a digital approximation on a supposedly analog laws of physics. But I disagree. 15 significant digits should be more than enough. If that number measures the size of earth, it has accuracy to about .00001 millimeter. And if I wanted it, I could have millions of significant digits. Can you prove the laws of physics arent digital with only 1000 significant digits?

kenshinhan604 your "balance of life" is obsolete and will eventually be destroyed. Your warnings to not interfere make me want to interfere more. What are you trying to hide? Lets leave it all to "god", you say, but if your god is so powerful, why do you worry about me trying to change things?

[Ybom]

I would get involved with this, but the bed gnomes won't let go! Hehe.

God is all powerful for one reason, beavis is that reason. I think god is trying to prove that he's really better than all the other gods out there. My proof of this is beavis.

Anyways, enough brown nosing for me now. On to the show!

-----
Ok, you both are dancing around finite and infinite like you're in ballet and these numbers are swans or something. Shouldn't these both be part of the whole anyways? I say that under the right thought pattern that infinity is finite and finity is infinite and v.v. Measuring things is just to make it easier for us to get it 'close enough' to work with. Why are you measuring your bed other than to see a number? Is there any true purpose behind it? Move on!

Anyways, I think you both (and whoever else strolls by) miss the principle of a paradox. The reason why all of this makes sense is simply because it doesn't really make sense at all. Scientific thinking only lets you see a detailed part of the big picture, but then you miss the forest for the trees. Essentially what I'm saying is something like this; you have to see both finity and infinity together as a whole, not separately.

[beavis]

finite = infinite.
makes sense = doesnt make sense.
Come back when you have something noncontradictory to say. You're not the first to say things like that, and it doesnt mean anything this time either.

Ok, you both are dancing around finite and infinite like you're in ballet and these numbers are swans or something. Shouldn't these both be part of the whole anyways?

It appears that finite things exist, but I cant see well with my senses (which are all finite) anything thats infinite, so I probably wouldnt know its there, and neither would any other Human, except by speculation. So NO, infinite things shouldnt be part of the whole anyways. That is unknown.

Measuring things is just to make it easier for us to get it 'close enough' to work with. Why are you measuring your bed other than to see a number? Is there any true purpose behind it? Move on!

Thats all I use measuring for. Approximations are good enough to build everything that Humans have ever built, and the same should be true about the weird things I'm trying to build.

Scientific thinking only lets you see a detailed part of the big picture, but then you miss the forest for the trees.

The same is true of thinking only in new-age paranormal terms. I dont limit my thinking to either.

[Psan]

Beavis, by analog we mean a system which has continuous stable states.
In digital systems when a bit goes from 0 to 1, the voltage goes through all the values from,say, -5 to +5 in a nanosecond, the inbetween values are not stable.

15 significant digits should be more than enough.

For what? To simulate a soul?
The question here is not of range. If its possible to create a soul by binary numbers alone, then may be a 15 digit number will be accurate enough. The question here is - whether its possible to do this by numbers alone or do we need actual matter going through analog states.

Now we have two possibilities -
1. Soul (consciousness) is some kind of higher matter, of which we don't know yet.
2. Soul is only information, nothing else and is independent of matter.

Assuming 2nd is true, its possible to build it using numbers,as numbers are good approximations for information, 15 is enough.
Assuming 1st is true, we need to arrange the material (in similar fashion as brain) and hope to find a soul inside, the analog method.
Hopefully its clear what I'm saying.

Can you prove the laws of physics aren't digital with only 1000 significant digits?

The laws of physics describe the real world which is purely analog, and has infinite possible states, which is obviously not digital.

[Psan]

if we created souls then god can take a vacation?

Are you afraid of god? just like those cave people  

Ybom,

Why are you measuring your bed other than to see a number? Is there any true purpose behind it?

Are you asking what is the purpose behind man's pursuit for truth? Are you aware that only one in a billion men ever asks for truth, rest just move on.

you miss the forest for the trees

Would you ever know what a forest is if you don't know what a tree is?
Its the analysis that leads us to synthesis, and finally to the true understanding, not the other way round.
For example, the analysis of life-forms has lead to the understanding that all are variants of a single molecule -the DNA. And the analysis of matter has shown that all substances are arrangements of same stuff - particles.

you have to see both finity and infinity together as a whole, not separately.

Its very easy to say something that doesn't make sense but sounds great.
As, I've said earlier, there is an aspect of reality that we cant grasp at this stage of evolution. When we approximate the reality, it becomes finite and useful, but when we probe deeper it becomes infinite and nonsensical.

[beavis]

Psan

Beavis, by analog we mean a system which has continuous stable states.
In digital systems when a bit goes from 0 to 1, the voltage goes through all the values from,say, -5 to +5 in a nanosecond, the inbetween values are not stable.

1 bit by itsself doesnt make a stable system, but I'm using them in groups of 64, but I dont stop there. Those 64-groups are connected together in weird ways. If it can be a stable system or not is not a theoretical question. It can already behave like waves without the use of the sine operator, instead by simulating the real forces that cause waves. These waves can be built to gravitate toward a central frequency even when all parts of the wave have little apparently-random deviations from a true sine wave - stable.

For what? To simulate a soul?

I meant for my weird software. A soul might work with 15, but probably wouldnt need more than 100.

The question here is not of range. If its possible to create a soul by binary numbers alone, then may be a 15 digit number will be accurate enough. The question here is - whether its possible to do this by numbers alone or do we need actual matter going through analog states.

Now we have two possibilities -
1. Soul (consciousness) is some kind of higher matter, of which we don't know yet.
2. Soul is only information, nothing else and is independent of matter.

Assuming 2nd is true, its possible to build it using numbers,as numbers are good approximations for information, 15 is enough.
Assuming 1st is true, we need to arrange the material (in similar fashion as brain) and hope to find a soul inside, the analog method.
Hopefully its clear what I'm saying.

"1." could still be solved with technology. Simulate the matter on a computer then when it works right, build matter that way. Even if you dont call it a soul, I'd be happy to make something with the same behavior, and I'd call it one.

But theres a milestone before building a soul, to build something thats alive from nonliving parts. In some ways, its already been done, but its not even as complex as a virus. In "conways game of life" (easily searched for, downloaded, and run), there is a grid of squares that can be either white or black. Every increment in time, for every square, depending on how many of the 8 adjacent squares are black, the square becomes (or stays) white or black. More complex physics have been done, but this simple example is enough for life. Simple patterns have been found that use those laws of physics to move and eventually rebuild their shape farther away, and when they crash into each other, sometimes they create other similar things (reproduce). The smallest self-moving pattern is about 5 black squares. Its not our laws of physics, but I say its just as valid (but with less potential for complexity) for life to exist in.

Can you prove the laws of physics aren't digital with only 1000 significant digits?  

The laws of physics describe the real world which is purely analog, and has infinite possible states, which is obviously not digital.

Its not obvious to me that it has infinite possible states or is purely analog, but if its obvious, you should be able to easily explain why its obvious. I could agree it has at least some exponentially huge number of possible states, but thats far from infinite. Why should I think it cant be apparently-analog but really digital with only 1000 significant digits?

Its very easy to say something that doesn't make sense but sounds great.
As, I've said earlier, there is an aspect of reality that we cant grasp at this stage of evolution. When we approximate the reality, it becomes finite and useful, but when we probe deeper it becomes infinite and nonsensical.

How do you know whats there when we probe deeper? Did you use your finite senses and measuring equipment to know its infinite? Or did you assume its infinite and derive the errors from that?

[Risu no Kairu]

There some mention of how to create souls over in that Arch Angel Michael thread.

[Ybom]

I shouldn't have disappeared. I'm sorry to have offended you beavis, but I was trying to get a point across and I seem to have failed.

Let me do a bit more research to see if I can find some scientific evidence to back up what I'm picturing here.

[Psan]

I thought I lost this thread somewhere, I was searching for it

I meant for my weird software. A soul might work with 15, but probably wouldn't need more than 100.

Your s/w will surely work here, no doubts. I think for a soul you'd need real QM fields, not the numbers encoded in x-bits. It's a different matter that you can also simulate it down to QM level, but then the computer which can do this in real time will be a quantum computer and would actually become a real brain (an electronic one). So I see a hybrid solution to this problem.

In some ways, its already been done, but its not even as complex as a virus.

I may add here that we have the tech to build a 'living thing' already. Such as a robot which can assemble copies of itself and can repair itself. We can realize such robots economically only after nanomachines start coming up. Computer simulation of a living thing is not a problem at all.
The real challenge is to build a conscious machine, and a self conscious one. We have Turing's test to ascertain if something is conscious in a 'human way'. So far nothing has passed this test.

Its not obvious to me that it has infinite possible states or is purely analog, but if its obvious, you should be able to easily explain why its obvious.

Take any physical quantity you like, say, sound, it has all possible amplitude and all possible frequencies. On your PC sound card 16 bits/sample are enough for a good approximation, but we know that this is only an approximation. This is true for any real thing that you quantize, even a soul.
Another example is the number Pi. It occurs often in nature, in equations that describe something. How many bits would it take to make a real Pi?
Same reasoning goes for e and c.

At QM levels things are discreet, i.e. some states are forbidden, but there is no limit on the value and number of states. Perhaps you are confusing discreet with digital.

Did you use your finite senses and measuring equipment to know its infinite?

We use mathematics. But I see your point.