I know someone believes that OBE is against the will of god

Smilodon29A · February 23, 2005, 05:25:56

[/quote]

Also I do not understand people who claim that we try to escape reality by doing all these things. I find that I am able to cope with my work and everyday activities much better now instead of trying to run away.

[/quote]

Which people are that ? I really did not discuss much about OB with anyone yet.

Anyways everyone escapes "reality" one way or the other.
Some more common ways are going to bars, clubs, compulsive shopping and the like...

Ivanda · February 23, 2005, 08:49:54

there are always such people..i have even seen similar phrases here on the message board.

QuoteSome more common ways are going to bars, clubs, compulsive shopping and the like..

I think there is a huge difference if u compare these things with spiritual development!!

Smilodon29A · February 23, 2005, 11:06:09

Of course there is a difference.

The point was supposed to be that to a person to whom everything spiritual seems like a big blur, or something they regard as unusual at best, it will defiantly be the same.

Ivanda · February 23, 2005, 11:11:49

Totally agree with that!

Ivanda · February 23, 2005, 17:18:11

Quote
I've got a problem with the idea that we're puppets sent here to do one thing or an other. I'm not a puppet. I choose what I want to do. If you think somebody can make me learn a lesson, what would they do if I randomly decided to die and never come back to earth?

Puppet? Hmmm, never felt like this. I believe we actually chose to come to earth, live in physical body and learn to cope with suffering. We still have free will to do what we please, don`t we?

jason · February 23, 2005, 18:03:06

Quote from: Ivanda
QuoteI believe god wants us to OBE. Because the side-effects make us more spiritually aware so we can be closer to him.

Well said!

Well, after starting to practice meditation and OBE I feel so much more energized and peaceful..I do feel closer to God, indeed.

Also I do not understand people who claim that we try to escape reality by doing all these things. I find that I am able to cope with my work and everyday activities much better now instead of trying to run away.

I can relate to that-about how people claim that OBE is just an escape.People who say such things quite obviously have no direct experience in the matter.

I find OBE to be quite the opposite of an escape-We are confronted with something close to the very core of who/what we are when the physical body is temporarily put aside.

Quite simply,there really is no "escape" during OBE.For me,OBE/AP is about the seach for knowledge, as personal power.For moving through and transcending any bs that makes up the larger part of human society-reaching for our higher self,and hopefully,helping others along the way.

And if this makes me "evil" to any religious fanatic,then so be it!

And thank you, karnautrahl for the kind words about my last post.

Mustardseed · February 24, 2005, 02:30:58

As I said, I also do not believe as most fundamentalists do. That said, I still believe that too much negativity and name calling is directed their way. You don't bust up a fire throwing wood at it!. All the neat little sound bytes all the clever words that some of you seem to delight is using to put others of a different faith down just seem rather unappealing and immature to me.

Instead maybe you should just face the fact that instead of subscribing to a specific faith you have just made your own, it is based on your combined life experience, more power to ya, but ........it is still just your opinion or faith, your own little private belief system, because the big picture is very very big. This little story might explain with humor what I am trying to say.

3 guys from a nut house was standing around, 2 of them with a hand in their shirt Napoleon style. One says I am napoleon, the other says no you cant be cause I am, the first one says no way I know I am cause God told me, to which the third says "I never said any such thing"

think about it

Regards Mustardseed

Smilodon29A · February 24, 2005, 04:20:05

Mustardseed I totally agree with you that you shouldn't push anything aside. I personally do not not believe what they are saying, but I don't condemn anyone who does.

The only problem I have with any faith is that they tell people they must do so and so or they will go to hell.

And to take it further, if you want to believe them, it is your choice, just don't try to make me believe in the same concept if I already told you I don't, as I don't force you to believe what I believe.

karnautrahl · February 24, 2005, 06:30:35

I second this one.
For me I feel fundementalists are right-for themselves.

They are very wrong if they are of the mindset that believes all should follow what they do.

For them their beliefs are correct and support them in their life perhaps. I would never ever change my beliefs to match a religion at any cost-apart from one thing ONLY. Personal experience and consistent revelation that a precise religious belief was true. I've had "religous" type experiences, none of them persuaded me to follow any fundemental style structure. I can't even put labels on most of what I felt. So i won't. I won't try to instruct anyone else how to do it, or get anyone to believe as I do. I will tell my story in the right place. Here and to anyone who asks. But it's a story. My story. Not something for anyone else to ever follow.

jason · February 24, 2005, 17:39:52

Quote from: Mustardseed

but ........it is still just your opinion or faith, your own little private belief system, because the big picture is very very big.

Regards Mustardseed

this is very true-And it's the crux of the problem-Trying to get past belief systems-is this even possible?

many people preach about god,w/out really realizing the vastness of what they pretend to know about.It's like they are trying to put absolute,incomprehensable infinity into a little box,and staple a human face on it!

I'm not trying to come up w/"sound bytes" hereIt's unfortunate that you may misjudge me that way-it's just that I try to state what I mean w/out having a "mega-post"

stone · February 25, 2005, 00:40:31

The out of body experience is the search within ourselves and within our soul. We go to places unknown so that we may bring back more answers to life and our experience within that life.

To say that God is opposed to Out of Body travel is like saying God is opposed to us eating our cereal with a fork. The tools and implements exist within us. Within these bodies and minds that were made possible by God.

Judgment upon us is based upon decisions we make and whether or not they harm ourselves or those around us.

Enlightenment and exploration are harmless pursuits that allow us to understand the greater tapestry of the universe we live in. They also allow us to converse with the powers that be, in ways that are otherwise impossible within the five physical senses.

And as an added statement allow me to say this... especially to the individual who stated that conscious OBE was witchcraft and against the will of god....

...I had alot of doubts about the existence and love of God. Until of course I started my OBE pursuits...

Now. I know without a doubt that there is one. I don't adhere to a pen and paper, died in the wool, religion. But I'm far more spiritual now, than I ever used to be.

My Two Cents,

Stone

Traveler · February 25, 2005, 07:44:32

I'd like to make a couple of points. I believe, no, know God exists. He gave us free will which means he allows us to do ANYTHING. Whether perceived as good or evil makes no difference. Mainstream religions view anything outside of acceptable behavior according to their beliefs as evil. To me, by making that judgment would mean they are no longer acting in love. To act in love means to not judge others. That's the big problem I have with religions. Though I'm a professed Christian and attend church at least once a week, I keep my mind open and am learning not to pass judgement on anyone. That's a tough one to nail especially on my commute to work. Having said that, I don't think OBEs are evil and I doubt God thinks so either. This type of activity along with astral projection is no different than a bible study. Just a different method at learning the truth though I suspect more effective than a bible study.

Smilodon29A · February 25, 2005, 08:47:37

Hey I also do believe in a god just not like the religions do.
The most important thing you can get from a religion in my opinion is that you do not condemn what is different than you. And that is difficult for anyone, but we do try

.

And I agree with traveler that God does not have anything against OB.

About good, evil and morals, it is all in our mind, how we are conditioned to think. A certain conditioning is ok, up to a point: "live and let live".

karnautrahl · February 25, 2005, 13:31:04

It's nice to see the idea of believing in God, and a more than open tolerance to multiple paths in one place

. I gotta work on being more tolerant of die hard fundementalists...maybe I should pray for that. LOL Only I don't pray

, but I think you two guys are right. There is something that can be possibly described as God, a higher power or something

.

jason · February 25, 2005, 16:31:00

Quote from: karnautrahlIt's nice to see the idea of believing in God, and a more than open tolerance to multiple paths in one place . I gotta work on being more tolerant of die hard fundementalists...maybe I should pray for that. LOL Only I don't pray , but I think you two guys are right. There is something that can be possibly described as God, a higher power or something .

I like the phrase "higher power"-it sort of "de-humanizes" the god image as a human,in a good way.It helps take the meaning to a deeper level for me.

I know that I too,need to work on universal tolerance.It is very difficult though,especially when confronted w/reliogious groups that preach love,while many times, spreading judgement,and sometimes even death and destruction.

My own "inner judge" of sorts is silent 80% of the time,but it still crops up once in awhile,especially when judgement is already present in another person or group

.

It almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).

Traveler · February 26, 2005, 09:45:59

QuoteIt almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).

It does seem that way doesn't it. Judgement tends to be a barrier to love.

RTCovenant · February 26, 2005, 21:51:53

QuoteQuote:
RTCovenant: Also, why would god give us the gift to be able to OBE, if he never intended us to do so?

Why would god give us the intelligence to build nuclear bombs if he didnt want us to kill everybody? I dont see your logic.

Well, god made the part of OBE part of our spirit and body. He didn't make the nuclear weapons part of our body or mind, he just gave us the minds to undertant science.

But the real answer to this topic is what you, yourself beleive.
If you beleive it to be works of Satan or whatever, then don't do it. I think preachers can preach but they shouldn't boss people around. In the end, it is what you believe, not what others believe.

bcurry1027 · February 28, 2005, 17:05:40

I believe truly that we are our own Gods, and that everything around us is God. We are God's imagination, his dream, his creation, we are all a part of the same thing, we are all a part of this "God" we all speak of, but in more mere terms we are all a part of this 'higher-power'.

jason · February 28, 2005, 18:42:56

Quote from: bcurry1027I believe truly that we are our own Gods, and that everything around us is God. We are God's imagination, his dream, his creation, we are all a part of the same thing, we are all a part of this "God" we all speak of, but in more mere terms we are all a part of this 'higher-power'.

This is a thought that has crossed my mind more than once-that we and the universe may be a part of the creator-the universe coming to terms w/itself,and evolving.

beavis · February 28, 2005, 19:32:38

QuoteIt almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).

then you're infected, judger of judgers

jason · March 01, 2005, 18:02:17

Quote from: beavis
QuoteIt almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).

then you're infected, judger of judgers

I know what you mean

Bad habits...

Added March 3rd: see post below.

jason · March 03, 2005, 16:15:43

I thought I'd post some thoughts on what I've learned from this topic-

We all must respect all belief systems,whether they are philosophys of fundamentalism,or philosophys of dispair (the "oblivion after death",or "worm food" belief system).

It isn't peoples belief system themselves that can wreak havoc on others lives,it's the actions that people take,based on the particular belief system that can be destructive.

An athiest vainly trying to pick apart religious belief systems w/long-winded scientific terminology,in a futile effort to debunk their beliefs,is just as destructive as a fundamentalist that threatens others who don't follow their particular belief system.Likewise a spiritual,but not religious persons act of judging any belief system,whether they are fundamentalists,or athiests,is just as negative,and not the act that someone who is truly searching for ultimate freedom and knowledge should choose.

I'm glad to say that my inner judge has learned an even deeper level of silent respect!

beavis · March 08, 2005, 11:37:33

QuoteWe all must respect all belief systems

Respect of somebody elses belief should be proportional to the chance you think its true. How can you really respect something you think is probably not true? That is fake respect, and you pretend to respect to try to gain some paranormal advantage, but lying to yourself wont accomplish that. We live in a very objective world. Regardless of how much I believe I'm wearing a green shirt, people will probably see the true color of my shirt. Color is not relative at non-relativistic speeds, and you know what you see when you look at my shirt. There are exceptions, usually with high amounts of psychic energy, but they are rare in this part of the universe. Judgements must be made. You judge that its not worth it to respond to this, or you judge it is worth it and respond. You've lost already with your first word.

jason · March 08, 2005, 16:31:27

Quote from: beavis

Respect of somebody elses belief should be proportional to the chance you think its true.

It seems that our definitions of respect are different from eachother.Respect,to me,means that I have a duty to appreciate other belief systems even though I hold another.Respect,to you means that you just want something,such as personal status,due to your casting of judgement.

A belief system exists in the first place quite simply because it brings harmony to the thoughts of those who follow it.

QuoteHow can you really respect something you think is probably not true?

My opinion is irrelevent,as it stems from the "objectivity" (there is no such thing,other than absolute physical objectivity,such as your shirt example) of my belief system,which uses a vastly different mind-set to determine truth.truth is relative-what is absolutely true for one,may be absolutely false to another,and they are both correct FOR THEM IN THEMSELVES.

QuoteThat is fake respect, and you pretend to respect to try to gain some paranormal advantage, but lying to yourself wont accomplish that.

.

How can you know whether my respect is fake or genuine?

You put words in my mouth.The only "paranormal advantage" I'm trying to gain is absolute,ultimate freedom,and to help others attain it if I can .And this can help be gained by withdrawing negative emotional attachment.A minor element,but an element nontheless.myself,together with others could help the entire world to raise into a higher octave,if only we could stop such petty squabbling!

I can respect someone elses belief system even though I may hold a different one,because one is not[/] better than another.You think you are better than an insect? You are wrong if you do,and I honestly mean that in the most positive way.

QuoteJudgements must be made.

Your judgement comes from a biased source-YOUR belief system.If you really want to know whether you should judge someone else,I would challenge you to "walk a mile in their shoes".If you could suddenly,completely adopt the beleif system of those you judge,I'd bet anything that you would change your tune pretty damn fast!

.Opinions can be had,but judgement is automatically assuming everything and everyone within the circle of judgement to be lesser,and this is not true at all.

QuoteYou judge that its not worth it to respond to this, or you judge it is worth it and respond.

You've lost already with your first word.

Judgement is largely based on personal fear.Fear is a binding emotion.
Which has no place in the heart of soemone who wishes to reclaim their freedom and personal power (placed in service of course).

And as to whether I've "lost or won", I don't care a bit.There is no such thing as success or failure.It's all in the mind of conflicting beleif systems, merely getting tossed back and forth.

You respond w/such a negative post in the first place because you project a negative onto another.

Of course you are certainly entitled to your belief system,an your opnion with it,because it brings you harmony,but please keep your judgements to yourself-They really are useless.

Gandalf · March 08, 2005, 17:39:44

Beavis:

What we mean by 'respecting someone elses beliefs' is not so much the content of the beliefs themselves... but that you should respect the fundamental right of an individual to hold any beliefs he likes about himself and the world around him. That is what we mean by 'respecting others beliefs'..
Doesnt mean you have to agree with the content of them.. you are free to disagree with them.. so no you dont have to respect the factual content of them as truth.. but you do have to respect that persons right to hold them and you shouldnt violate that by openly insulting them or the individual..

There is a big difference between disagreeing and debating between different beliefs and having opinions as to which is better, but quite another to openly insult people because of them.. the first point is about respect, the second is about a lack of it.

Doug

News:

I know someone believes that OBE is against the will of god

beavis

beavis