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Author Topic: Is Baptising a child wrong?  (Read 9770 times)
kakkarot
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« on: June 10, 2002, 01:52:02 »

but fenris, if baptism has no effect, how could the non-existant effect be reversed anyway?

actually, baptism does have an effect, or at least it did for me. but i CHOSE to be baptised. baptism is supposed to be a choice on the behalf of a person to die to their old life of sin and selfishness and evil and et al, and to live a new life "in Christ". so baptising a child is meaningless and an act of evil because the person is FORCING the child to be baptised .and even though it isn't against their will (cause little babies have no will) it isn't a choice made by the baptisee (is that a word?).  therefore, unethical, evil, and (though it may be religious) un-spiritual and unGodly.

as to what right a parent has to do stuff to their child, well that depends on whether you believe that a child is the "property" of the parent or is a completely independant (and by the definition of independance, this is impossible) being from birth on till death.

i like rocking boats; it makes people re-evaluate what is important. as well it forces people to start thinking about important issues.  jeez i'm a jerk  Smiley

~kakkarot

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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2002, 04:11:15 »

Infantile baptism is an abomination.  Kakkarot was right, baptism is the act of shedding ones old life and taking on certain covenants.  Babies are innocent and incapable of making decisions and do not need to be cleansed in any way.  Blessing a child, etc. is fine and in fact, IMHO, necessary...but baptising a child is ludicrous.

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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2002, 04:11:15 »

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Fenris
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2002, 04:50:10 »

Think you misread my post Kakkarot, I did say that baptism has an effect not that it does nothing.

Seems most people so far seem to see things the same way I do, are there any members here who have baptised a child, if so please share your opinion.

regards

David

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Oliver
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2002, 04:52:18 »

Hi,

I was baptised when I was a baby, and it doesn't bother me one bit.
My parents, in baptising me, were doing something that they thought or think is right. I don't think its something to get upset over. They are religous. I'm not religous. I think it shows that they love me and want what they consider is best for me.

How about this:
If you were walking along the street one day, and someone stopped you, put their finger in the dirt or something, then made a symbol of somekind on your hand, and said they "name you a such'n such in the name of whoever" What would your reaction be? How would you feel about that? They might think they're doing you a favour, in naming you in their belief. Would you be just as upset about it as you would if you were baptised?

Nobody can tell you who you are, what you feel, and what you do. You are you, no matter what anyone else may say.
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Fenris
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2002, 05:36:25 »

Oliver-

There is a difference between naming someone in relation to a belief and initiating someone into a belief. As a ritual baptism does create subtle changes to someone, and I have read (Judith Collins's seeing and percieving the human aura) that baptism does create a visible change to the aura - thus a change to the soul (if you agree that the aura is the image of the soul).

In some magical circles some believe that people who were baptised as children do not have the same ability to recieve magical initiation as those who were not baptised. Im not sure if I agree with this though, Im sure there would be notable examples who have proved this wrong.

Regardless an initiation does have an effect on you, weither you agree or not. If someone named me into something I would be humored and maybe even a little flattered. If someone attempted to iniate me into something I did not agree with I would feel inclined to take their teeth, in my opinion no physical abuse can equal an abuse of the soul. Initation of any sort should never be taken lightly.

Does anyone nkow of how you could un-baptise yourself if you were so inclined, or is it truely impossible?

regards

David

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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2002, 05:36:25 »



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distant bell
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2002, 05:42:34 »

I agree in one way an disagree in another. It is wrong to force a religion
on a child. but on the other hand when people get older they can change their belife system. I was baptised, and Im not christian.

On the other hand, I do belive that a baptism (as any strong religious cermon) has a greta effect, and could help keep of evil forces from the child. So I actually think it is a vaild, though not wery strong protection. Of course the parents could perform the LBRP too, but most don´t. So I can actually see the value of the baptism. After al, the church have no real initiations. If you do a real initiation, you have to take a personal stand, saying something. The child only gets batised- so I don´t think it´s binding.

Felix


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Oliver
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2002, 06:36:13 »

Fenris,

I disagree with you.  How would this work? It couldn't. Can't any situation change how the aura looks at any given time? For example, someone having fun, or being bored?

Ok, so to get this straight, what you believe is, if someone says to you that they initiate you into something that they believe in, it damages your soul in some way?

So if someone you passed by on the street believed ummm, lets say that clouds are gods, and he worships them, and so on, and he does the little thing with the dirt on your hand and says he initiates you into his religion, would you consider that the same as being baptised? Would you want to fight this man, for what he has done to you?

How does violence make it better? He's already "initiated" you into his belief. In hurting him physically, does that change what he's done to you from your point of view? Would hurting him "even" the scale?

Do you also believe that if someone was to base a religion on another person, when that person does not want that to happen at all, would that affect that person's soul in someway?

Oliver
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Ashfo
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2002, 06:51:27 »

I believe so.

An individual should choose their beliefs and not be forced to conform to their parents beliefs.

Such acts halt progress.. Young minds are being blinded to the spiritual world because of the general public feeling about it.

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steveb
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2002, 07:36:04 »

Greetings all,

         A child is born innocent, when you watch an infant at rest sometimes they appear to be looking at something, they are, there ego's. The ego's have nothing to work with yet, they hover waiting to enter.Talk to most parents, the baby's been fed, nappies just been changed, the little ones comfortable, you leave the room and sometime later the baby lets out a big cry. The little one has had a fright, more than likely it's an ego. The same when you sneak a look at them at night sometimes and they seem as if there playing with some one, they are, ego's.

           We as adults can spend a whole lifetime(s) trying to become one with the "it", "god", "the essance", new borns are from it.
       
           I've been told that by the age of seven or there abouts most if not all the ego's have entered. Unfortunualty the way life is, by the way we live, it's us adults that give rise to the ego's entry into the little ones. If not us, life itself, the system.

             Due to the above I believe a child is not required to be baptized at birth, maybe later on if so inclined.

Regards  Steve

 
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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2002, 08:34:45 »

A Little Child Shall Lead Them
Ensign, June 2002

By President Thomas S. Monson


During the Galilean ministry of our Lord and Savior, the disciples came unto Him, saying: "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

"And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea" (Matt. 18:1–6).


The Many Faces of Child Abuse

Some time ago, as I read the daily newspaper, my thoughts turned to this passage and the firm candor of the Savior's declaration. In one column of the newspaper I read of a custody battle between the mother and father of a child. Accusations were made, threats hurled, and anger displayed as parents moved here and there on the international scene with the child spirited away from one continent to another.

A second story told of a 12-year-old lad who was beaten and set on fire because he refused a neighborhood bully's order to take drugs.

Still a third report told of a father's sexual molestation of his small child.

A physician once revealed to me the large number of abused children who are being brought to the emergency rooms of local hospitals in your city and mine. In many cases guilty parents provide fanciful accounts of the child falling from his high chair or stumbling over a toy and striking his head. Altogether too frequently it is discovered that the parent was the abuser and the innocent child the victim. Shame on the perpetrators of such vile deeds. God will hold such strictly accountable for their actions.


Children Are Precious to the Lord

When we realize just how precious children are, we will not find it difficult to follow the pattern of the Master in our association with them. Not long ago, a sweet scene took place at the Salt Lake Temple. Children, who had been ever so tenderly cared for by faithful workers in the temple nursery, were now leaving in the arms of their mothers and fathers. One child turned to the lovely women who had been so kind to the children and, with a wave of her arm, spoke the feelings of her heart as she exclaimed, "Good night, angels."

The poet described a child so recently with its Heavenly Father as "a sweet new blossom of Humanity, fresh fallen from God's own home to flower on earth."1

Who among us has not praised God and marveled at His powers when an infant is held in one's arms? That tiny hand, so small yet so perfect, instantly becomes the topic of conversation. No one can resist placing his little finger in the clutching hand of an infant. A smile comes to the lips, a certain glow to the eyes, and one appreciates the tender feelings which prompted the poet to pen the lines:

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar;
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home.2

When the disciples of Jesus attempted to restrain the children from approaching Him, He declared:

"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

"And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them" (Mark 10:14–16).

What a magnificent pattern for us to follow.


We Can Bless the Lives of Children

Several years ago my heart burned warmly within me when the First Presidency approved the allocation of a substantial sum from some special fast-offering contributions to join with those funds from Rotary International that polio vaccine might be provided and the children living in Kenya immunized against this vicious crippler and killer of children.

I thank God for the work of our doctors who leave for a time their own private practices and journey to distant lands to minister to children. Cleft palates and other deformities which would leave a child impaired physically and damaged psychologically are skillfully repaired. Despair yields to hope. Gratitude replaces grief. These children can now look in the mirror and marvel at a miracle in their own lives.

In a meeting, I once told of a dentist in my ward who each year visited the Philippine Islands to work his skills without compensation to provide corrective dentistry for children. Smiles were restored, spirits lifted, and futures enhanced. I did not know that the daughter of this dentist was in the congregation to which I was speaking. At the conclusion of my remarks, she came forward and, with a broad smile of proper pride, said, "You have been speaking of my father. How I love him and what he is doing for children!"

In the faraway islands of the Pacific, hundreds who were near-blind now see because a missionary said to his physician brother-in-law, "Leave your wealthy clientele and the comforts of your palatial home and come to these special children of God who need your skills and need them now." The ophthalmologist responded without a backward glance. He has commented quietly that this visit was the best service he ever rendered and the peace which came to his heart the greatest blessing of his life.

Tears came easily to me when I read of a father who donated one of his own kidneys in the hope that his son might have a more abundant life. I have dropped to my knees at night and have added my prayer of faith in behalf of a mother in my community who journeyed to Chicago that she might provide part of her liver to her daughter in a delicate and potentially life-threatening surgery. She, who already had gone down into the valley of the shadow of death to bring forth this child into mortality, again put her hand in the hand of God and placed her own life in jeopardy for her child. Never a complaint, but ever a willing heart and a prayer of faith.

Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles once shared the pitiable plight of many orphan children in Romania—perhaps 30,000 in the city of Bucharest alone. He visited one such orphanage and arranged that the Church might provide vaccine, medical dressings, and other urgently needed supplies. Certain couples were identified and called to fill special missions to these children. I can think of no more Christlike service than to hold a motherless child in one's arms or to take a fatherless boy by the hand.

We need not be called to missionary service, however, in order to bless the lives of children. Our opportunities are limitless. They are everywhere to be found- sometimes very close to home.


How Children Bless Our Lives

Several years ago I received a letter from a woman who had emerged from a long period of Church inactivity. She was ever so anxious for her husband, who as yet was not a member of the Church, to share the joy she felt.

She wrote of a trip which she, her husband, and their three sons made from the family home to Grandmother's home in Idaho. While driving through Salt Lake City, they were attracted by the message which appeared on a billboard. The message invited them to visit Temple Square. Bob, the nonmember husband, made the suggestion that a visit would be pleasant. The family entered the visitors' center, and Father took two sons up a ramp that one called "the ramp to heaven." Mother and three-year-old Tyler were a bit behind the others, they having paused to appreciate the beautiful paintings which adorned the walls. As they walked toward the magnificent sculpture of Thorvaldsen's Christus, tiny Tyler bolted from his mother and ran to the base of the Christus, while exclaiming, "It's Jesus! It's Jesus!" As Mother attempted to restrain her son, Tyler looked back toward her and his father and said, "Don't worry. He likes children."

After departing the center and again making their way along the freeway toward Grandmother's, Dad asked Tyler what he liked best about their adventure on Temple Square. Tyler smiled up at him and said, "Jesus."

"How do you know that Jesus likes you, Tyler?"

Tyler, with a most serious expression on his face, looked up at his father's eyes and answered, "Dad, didn't you see His face?" Nothing else needed to be said.

As I read this account, I thought of the statement from the book of Isaiah, "And a little child shall lead them" (Isa. 11:6).

The words of a Primary hymn express the feelings of a child's heart:

Tell me the stories of Jesus I love to hear,
Things I would ask him to tell me if he were here.
Scenes by the wayside, tales of the sea,
Stories of Jesus, tell them to me.

Oh, let me hear how the children stood round his knee.
I shall imagine his blessings resting on me;
Words full of kindness, deeds full of grace,
All in the lovelight of Jesus' face.3


Blessing the Nephite Children

I know of no more touching passage in scripture than the account of the Savior blessing the children, as recorded in 3 Nephi. The Master spoke movingly to the vast multitude of men, women, and children. Then, responding to their faith and the desire that He tarry longer, He invited them to bring to Him their lame, their blind, and their sick, that He might heal them. With joy they accepted His invitation. The record reveals that "he did heal them every one" (3 Ne. 17:9). There followed His mighty prayer to His Father. The multitude bore record: "The eye hath never seen, neither hath the ear heard, before, so great and marvelous things as we saw and heard Jesus speak unto the Father" (3 Ne. 17:16).

Concluding this magnificent event, Jesus "wept, . . . and he took their little children, one by one, and blessed them, and prayed unto the Father for them. . . .

"And he spake unto the multitude, and said unto them: Behold your little ones.

"And as they looked to behold they cast their eyes towards heaven, and they saw the heavens open, and they saw angels descending out of heaven . . . ; and they came down and encircled those little ones . . . ; and the angels did minister unto them" (3 Ne. 17:21, 23–24).

Over and over in my mind I pondered the phrase, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein" (Mark 10:15).


Thomas Michael Wilson

One who fulfilled in his life this admonition of the Savior was a missionary, Thomas Michael Wilson. He is the son of Willie and Julia Wilson, Route 2, Box 12, Lafayette, Alabama. Elder Wilson completed his earthly mission on 13 January 1990. When he was but a teenager, and he and his family were not yet members of the Church, he was stricken with cancer, followed by painful radiation therapy, and then blessed remission. This illness caused his family to realize that not only is life precious but that it can also be short. The family began to look to religion to help them through this time of tribulation. Subsequently they were introduced to the Church and baptized. After accepting the gospel, young Brother Wilson yearned for the opportunity of being a missionary. A mission call came for him to serve in the Utah Salt Lake City Mission. What a privilege to represent the family and the Lord as a missionary!

Elder Wilson's missionary companions described his faith as like that of a child–unquestioning, undeviating, unyielding. He was an example to all. After 11 months, illness returned. Bone cancer now required the amputation of his arm and shoulder. Yet he persisted in his missionary labors.

Elder Wilson's courage and consuming desire to remain on his mission so touched his nonmember father that he investigated the teachings of the Church and also became a member.

An anonymous caller brought to my attention Elder Wilson's plight. She said she didn't want to leave her name and indicated she'd never before called a General Authority. However, she said, "You don't often meet someone of the caliber of Elder Wilson."

I learned that an investigator whom Elder Wilson had taught was baptized at the baptistry on Temple Square but then wanted to be confirmed by Elder Wilson, whom she respected so much. She, with a few others, journeyed to Elder Wilson's bedside in the hospital. There, with his remaining hand resting upon her head, Elder Wilson confirmed her a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Elder Wilson continued month after month his precious but painful service as a missionary. Blessings were given; prayers were offered. The spirit of his fellow missionaries soared. Their hearts were full. They lived closer to God.

Elder Wilson's physical condition deteriorated. The end drew near. He was to return home. He asked to serve but one additional month. What a month this was! Like a child trusting implicitly its parents, Elder Wilson put his trust in God. He whom Thomas Michael Wilson silently trusted opened the windows of heaven and abundantly blessed him. His parents, Willie and Julia Wilson, and his brother Tony came to Salt Lake City to help their son and brother home to Alabama. However, there was yet a prayed-for, a yearned-for, blessing to be bestowed. The family invited me to come with them to the Jordan River Utah Temple, where those sacred ordinances which bind families for eternity, as well as for time, were performed.

I said good-bye to the Wilson family. I can see Elder Wilson yet as he thanked me for being with him and his loved ones. He said, "It doesn't matter what happens to us in this life as long as we have the gospel of Jesus Christ and live it." What courage. What confidence. What love. The Wilson family made the long trek home to Lafayette, where Elder Thomas Michael Wilson slipped from here to eternity.

President Kevin K. Meadows, Elder Wilson's branch president, presided at the funeral services. The words of his subsequent letter to me I share with you: "On the day of the funeral, I took the family aside and expressed to them, President Monson, the sentiments you sent to me. I reminded them of what Elder Wilson had told you that day in the temple, that it did not matter whether he taught the gospel on this or the other side of the veil, so long as he could teach the gospel. I gave to them the inspiration you provided from the writings of President Joseph F. Smith [1838–1918]—that Elder Wilson had completed his earthly mission and that he, as all 'faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead' [D&C 138:57]. The Spirit bore record that this was the case. Elder Thomas Michael Wilson was buried with his missionary name tag in place."

When Elder Wilson's mother and father visit that rural cemetery and place flowers of remembrance on the grave of their son, I feel certain they remember the day he was born, the pride they felt, and the genuine joy that was theirs. This tiny child became the mighty man who later brought to them the opportunity to achieve celestial glory. Perhaps on these pilgrimages, when emotions are close to the surface and tears cannot be restrained, they thank God for their missionary son, who never lost the faith of a child, and then ponder deep within their hearts the Master's words, "And a little child shall lead them" (Isa. 11:6).

Peace is their blessing. It will be our blessing, also, as we remember and follow the Prince of Peace.


Gospel topics: Jesus Christ, children, abuse, service, faith


Notes

1. Gerald Massey, "Wooed and Won," in The Home Book of Quotations, sel. Burton Stevenson (1934), 121.

2. William Wordsworth, "Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood," The Complete Poetical Works of William Wordsworth (1924), 359.

3. "Tell Me the Stories of Jesus," Children's Songbook, 57.


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kakkarot
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2002, 16:49:57 »

yeah, i did misread fenris. sorry. i thought it said "is a ritual of initiation that does (NOT) seem to have a real effect". my bad. so sorry.

~kakkarot

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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2002, 07:08:01 »

I was baptised as a child.  I don't really care.
I look at it this way... If the child turns out to be religious, then hey they are happy and satisfied.  If they aren't religious, then who gives a damn because its meaningless to them.   This is assuming the parents really believe forcing a child into this ritual is actually going to have a purpose...if they do then hey let them do what makes them happy.
How could you really be mad at your parents for dipping your head in water?  If you care about something like that then you really have to much time on your hands. =)

Now if your christian AND your mad at your parents for baptising you, thats another story.  I can understand someone being mad that they couldn't choose to do it themselves...but even then you could probably get it done again with true intent...so whatever


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Fenris
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2002, 02:09:37 »

Hi Oliver

Firstly Ill try and make it clear that while I enjoy an intellectual debate I hate a bitter argument. So if I come of as being heated over it thats not my intent. Its the difference between learning from each other and getting angry Im referring to.

“How would this work? It couldn't. Can't any situation change how the aura looks at any given time? For example, someone having fun, or being bored?”

Yes you are partly correct, a part of the aura does change rapidly with emotion, however in another place things remain for a very long time. While I am developing auric sight at a pace to my satisfaction I am a long way from perceiving such a subtle change myself. I’m sure Robert would have an opinion on this as he has had auric sight for a long while. I am careful to list a source when I have not seen something with my own eyes, note that I did this. My experience with initiation rituals however is extensive enough that I can say with confidence that a well-constructed ritual initiation does permanently change an individual. Or perhaps it would be better put as creating a potentially life long change- as I have had no experience with anyone wishing to un-initiate (Im sure there is a word for it? ) themselves from anything. So while I am prepared to say that an initiation cant be undone I am not going to make a belief out of it. If initiation creates a lasting change of any sort rest assured that this change (along with any to the mind or body) will be reflected in the aura. So if I am prepared to say that it does create a lasting change from my own observation and personal experience than I would logically agree that it also changes the aura – as above see below.

I said:
“…in my opinion no physical abuse can equal an abuse of the soul. Initiation of any sort should never be taken lightly”

You replied:
“Ok, so to get this straight, what you believe is, if someone says to you that they initiate you into something that they believe in, it damages your soul in some way?”

I should have gone deeper here. Ill use the example of your dirty-fingered man. If this guy came up and did his little initiation thing on a person unless that man had a great deal of personal energy/power he would have no real effect. But if there were a million of these cloud worshipers and cloud worshiping and dirty-fingered initiation had gone on for a few thousand years than things would be different. The symbolism that the man uses would have great power associated with it from all of the belief people had and do attribute to it. So if this were the case it would indeed be similar to baptism, in the same way the magical initiation is. Initiation rituals get their potency from the power of the symbolism used, it would not surprise me if the Christian ritual involving pouring blessed water over the head had been used by another group for long before the Christians adopted it.

I also said:
“…I would feel inclined to take their teeth”

You also responded:
“How does violence make it better? He's already "initiated" you into his belief. In hurting him physically, does that change what he's done to you from your point of view? Would hurting him "even" the scale?”

The idea of using violence and being a ‘spiritual’ person might seem backward, and it is. It is also highly out of my character. Ill write this assuming we are referring to the cloud man that has a million others of his faith and a few thousand years of cloud worshiping behind him and not the one I would ignore or strike up conversation with. Wether I am right or I am wrong I at the present believe that well founded initiation rituals DO have an effect, so you must remember that my response to the man would be considering this belief. If it seemed to me that the man had done something which had subtly affected me I would be most displeased. Violence may not be right but the idea that it solves nothing is not entirely true. Violence solves lots of things, mainly superficial, controversial of me to say it however – and just my opinion. And pain is a powerful learning stimulus, I would feel that this man needs to learn that he cant just go around initiating people because he feels he is helping them (parallel to baptism not intended) and that effecting another’s most sacred place (the soul) is not right. Hurting him would not fix my problem, and it would not satisfy me, but reasoning with someone with religious meaning behind their action is useless. Hospitalising him might not get it through his head either, but it has more of a chance of conveying that others and I might not appreciate his practice.

“Do you also believe that if someone was to base a religion on another person, when that person does not want that to happen at all, would that affect that person's soul in someway?”

No it would not, but the same force that gives symbols power when enough belief is associated with them would create a change of sorts. But it would be complicated and Ive typed lots already.

What neither of us considered originally was if my having a will not to be initiated by the cloud man would effect or stop the power associated with his ritual, unlike a baptised baby with no will. Maybe if I believed that he could not affect me he couldn’t, and there would be no violence.

I admire the way you critically evaluate things and break things down, a good skill to have.

Kakkarot – don’t worry I will forgive you in time  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

best regards

David
 


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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2002, 06:45:11 »

Time heals all wounds.  So they say.

If a person was truely intent on having the effects of baptism remove the could very well asked to ex-communicated.  As baptism is the welcoming of one into the fold, ex-communication is the almost perminant removal of a person from the same.  Of course this is only the Catholic Church and you most diffinatly get a lot of resistance in having it done.  As they are for the most part an "in for life" group and those that have been ex-communicated in the past were so because of considered grevious crimes against the church or against God.   They would try thier best to talk you out of it though if you asked and try to get you all kinds "help" because you apparently need it.  But such is thier thinking.


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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2002, 15:13:21 »

cainam: "but such is their thinking". i think it is dumb thinking. christians are not supposed to FORCE other people into christianity, hell they aren't even supposed to persuade others into it. the role of the christian is to teach others about the "Will of God" and to help 'those who wish to become christians' to become christians. God, not man, changes people's hearts towards his way, according to the bible.

Fenris:yes there is a way to reverse this effect other than ex-communication. modify your soul. if someone has done something to your soul, learn how to "feel" your soul and learn how to change your self so completely that you can get rid of anything you don't want there. for instance, someone once tried to bind me a few years ago, soon after i found chi. i don't know who it was, but it felt like a really strong binding compared to my power at the time (though now, if i ever encountered a binding such as that i would destroy it in about three seconds). it took my soul a full day, on its own, to remove the binding. i didn't even try, i just let my soul work itself out, and it did. and the same can be done for any initiation effects that are put on someone.

but thinking on it now, your idea that initiations affect the soul permanently sound a lot like the reiki attunements.

~kakkarot

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WalkerInTheWoods
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2002, 16:17:19 »

I do not think that it is wrong really, but to me personally I see it as pointless. Here is why, I do not think that the actual act of baptising does much. What I think does is the person themself wanting to follow Christainity and making this display to show they are commited. It is the person's choice and will  that actually effects them and not so much so just going under water and coming back up. Since a child has no will of such things then it is really pointless, but the parents will for protection of the child could grant something to it.

These are my opinions and I sure do not wish to upset anyone. My idea that baptism is just a display may spawn arguments. Let me say that I am not saying it is bad if that is what you believe. But do let me say this, in all the Christain sects that I have visited it the main idea is that if you are not baptised or have not made public display of your loyalty to Christainity that you will not go to heaven. So what about the people who do decide to follow Christ but say get killed before they are baptised? I say this because when I was younger such an event occured, so I was told about. The preacher at the funeral of this boy who had decided to follow Christ but was killed before being baptised said that the boy was going to hell because he was not baptised. So what is your thoughts on this? Is it the baptising that is important or is it the person's will?

 
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2002, 16:39:21 »

You see this is one of the other things that I have problems with.  More so in the Catholic Church, more so with Roman Catholics.   They always talk about the body being the temple of God and the Church the House of God.  So "if" I was a follower of God and my body is the Temple of God then why would I have to do anything with the church to include baptism as long as I adhere to the teachings in the bible and trust that I am a follower of God?
The Holy Roman Catholic Church does not and would agree to this.  They say you have to go to church, you have to get baptised, you have to go to communion, and you have to go to confession or you won't "get in".  It is all double talk.


David Rogalski
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2002, 17:11:52 »

the catholic church is not the Church of God. i don't care if i draw flak for this, but in truth, the catholic church has deviated SO far from the teachings in the bible, that the only way a catholic is getting into heaven is by the grace of God. just like everyone else.

baptism is a display to others, but it is SO much more than that to the few people who understand it and go through it for the right reasons.

~kakkarot

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Oliver
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2002, 04:38:20 »

Hey Fenris,

I agree, I don't like arguing, arguing is trying to get the other person to agree with you, and I don't see a point in that because everyone is an individual with their own thoughts, and plus, its just not fun to argue. Also, I'd like to add I'm not getting angry over this either. I guess its important on an internet forum to point out sometimes, that you're not getting angry or upeset at all over anything, since somethings could be taken the way their not intended to be taken.

Ok, now back to the topic.

I just don't think the beliefs of others can affect another person no matter how many people share the belief. Babys may be stronger than you think, and what makes you think they have no will? I don't see how the beliefs of others could do this.

Now about Violence..
Violence is something which saddens me. Well not in all cases, it depends on the emotion behind it.  Like in boxing, its a sport, and the people who box aren't fighting with hate or anything like that, they are fighting for their love of the sport I would say. Although You didn't say you would hate the cloud believing guy or anything, its just my natrual reaction to question violence.
Its something which I haven't actually come to terms with myself.
Is it ever a good choice to make, to use violence. Where do you draw the line?

Ok, I'm going to have to go in a few minutes, and theres a lot of thought I've put behind this, so I might post a bit more later......

Ok, lets say you hit this guy, then you both get into a fight.. weather you overpower him, or the otherway around, he still sees that you don't appreciate what he did. But who knows what happens from there. What if you both satdown somewhere and you explained to him your feelings over the matter? Who knows what would happen then.. it might work, it might not.
But if everytime he tried initiating someone, he got a big long talking to about not doing that, maybe he'd get bored of the same talk all the time and give it up.... Who knows.. you can't really say as this is a hypothetical character and everyone is different.

If he had three of his freinds with him, and you had three of yours, then it could become a brawl or something. The only difference between a fistfight between two people, and a war between two nations, is the numbers, and firepower.

Ok, I'm going to have to stop here, but I'll post again.

Oliver
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WalkerInTheWoods
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2002, 10:35:26 »

I think I am flawed in saying that babies have no will, thank you for pointing it out. Clearly they have some will or they would not be alive. I think they do have the will to survive, what they do not have is understanding. A baby does not understand religion or rituals. Baptising the baby is pretty much to put the parents minds at easy and if it works then great.
One question is that if you were baptised as a baby and then decide to follow another belief, what does it matter? If you do not believe that Christainity is correct when why would you believe that baptism has any power?

Violence:
Clearly there are times that violence is needed. Would any disagree that it is needed when defending your nation? If a people did not believe in violence and refused to do it, well there are other people out there that are not and would be more than happy to kill them and take over their nation. This kills off the teachings against violence and allows the more violent people to breed and promote their ideas. So yes there is a time for violence otherwise this world would be run by violent people with no one else in it. We would all be ruled by Hitler. The difference is responsible violence and irresponsible.

What I find most amusing is the people that think peace is promoted with violence. George Bush has said that the US may need to strike first to keep other nations from starting a war. Does anyone else find a flaw in this idea? Violence, though needed at times, only promotes more violence. You cannot attack someone and then say ok now lets have peace. Peace produces peace, violence produces violence.

 
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2002, 21:53:40 »

Hi Fenris,

I know this is a little late in the piece, but here's my 2c. I don't claim anything here, but I have learnt the theology of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism on this one, combined with a little magickal learning (nothing like the wyzard Fenris of course http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>) :-

Like so many ancient Christian rituals, baptism in my view is a magickal rite. I say this because through various tools, invocations and blessings a distinct effect is had on the child. This is exactly what occurs in any other magickal operation.

The debate about infant vs adult baptism should not be about acceptance of a dogma. When the Church adopted infant baptism, they introduced the rite of adult Confirmation, which was intended to be point of formal acceptance of dogma. Although baptism historically has had that place, it now serves another function.

In baptism, very real blessings are conferred on a child. The celebrant is asking a Holy Spirit and invoking the name of Christ on the child's behalf. Group egregores, as well as prayerful blessings (having their own power) are being used to bestow protection and spiritual influence on the child. Permission is irrelevant with a child - who would not invoke the power and guidance of a Deity on a child, with the benefits this has? When the child is mature, they may reject the influence of that Deity, with or without the attached dogma, through their own rituals. No-one is forcing the child into a religion - their free will still remains. The child's parents, upbringing and own inclinations have far greater effects on their belief system that a baptism.

In short, it is an effective invocation of God and the Deity Jesus to offer spiritual benefits to one of his new creations. They have in some respects been put on a Christian path, but this enhances the benefits and protection of the rite. If a child were to eg. become a Setian, they would obviously revoke the forces that has been called on them up to that point....

Adults who have gone through baptism needn't fear that they've been hexed with a Christian curse - these are spiritual benefits being called into action!

Cheers (sorry for length of post http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>),
Joe
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2002, 00:33:28 »

Sir Joe

The way you have put Christianity in parrallel with my beliefs and practices makes things a lot easier to understand. My ignorance of Christian type behaviour is now somewhat apparent. Although I see and have said that the Christian ritual of Baptism is using the same forces as might be used in a magical initiation I have not looked at the ideology behind this practice entierly fairly.

Perhaps my strong resentment of preaching (I have christian friends who are against it to, and some that do it) and Christianity attempting to force itself onto people throught history and in contemporay time (so much knowledge, history, intelligence/good genes, and Life has been lost) has spilled over into my view of baptism. What im saying (before confusing everyone with too many things in brackits http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0> ) is that it is easy to see baptism as an attempt to 'get em while they are young' and neglect the side of loving parents trying to protect their children the only way they know how.

Im not saying that it is right to conduct a permanent ritual on an infant - or anybody (although some think it might not be so permanent) but it does now seem more difficlut to critisise parents for Baptising their children when Love and protection are bought into the equation. So Im not saying that I agree with it ( it is still placing/forcing ones beliefs on a  another), but I now certainly can empathise with parents who do it.

Wow Joe you made me see another point of view...Now thats tallent! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

"I dont know much about God...But we built a fine cage for him"
Homer as a misionary

Oliver- Maybe we should make another famous Astral Chat debate about violence, you would find the rules Joe and myself loved, build and nurtured...different http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

best regards

David

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Joe
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2002, 01:20:22 »

G'day Fenris - I didn't read far back enough to see where you were coming from. I can also see the negatives on baptism, although I would personally baptise my child, but with a less "religious" rite. I'm not keen on a dogmatic upbringing of any kind, even my own hodge-podge of beliefs. Great Homer quote btw - 5 points! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_tongue.gif" border=0>

We should definitely start a topic on violence - I only read a bit of the earlier posts, but one of my key beliefs is that "Peace comes by the Sword". I don't practice it physically, but psychologically and in business it's the mind-set that gets results. I'd be keen for a debate (especially with the "tournament" rules), although I get the distinct impression I'd be in the minority (again!) http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>.

All the best mate!
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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2002, 09:53:27 »

Not sure if this should be a new topic or not but I am wondering where baptism came from. I have read the Bible and I know that John just seemed to one day start doing it, but I am wondering if it has other origins. Does anyone know?

 
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2002, 08:40:33 »

Hey,

I said I'd post again... But i've kinda lost interest in this nowhttp://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>
hehe. Well for the moment anyway.

But yeah... if people are interested maybe someone should start a new topic on violence and find out peoples veiws.

Oliver

 
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