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Author Topic: Natural Selection vs Intelligent Design  (Read 5237 times)
Max
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« on: June 11, 2006, 18:28:33 »

I by no means claim to be an expert on the subject of either, but I have been doing research on both and find both aspects quite fascinating. The one thing, however, that I am having trouble getting around is this: if modern man is a product of natural selection, would it not then be safe to assume that, because of the process, that we cannot have a soul ( for lack of a better word ), and , if this is the case, then how is it possible for people to have OBE's? What do you think.
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jilola
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2006, 18:46:22 »

Quote from: Max
would it not then be safe to assume that, because of the process, that we cannot have a soul ( for lack of a better word )

The "lack of a better word" is the key there. What is a soul? Before saying a word about having/not having one  we should know what it is.
We are alive and perceive ourselves as conscious and aware of ourselves. Is that because we a) have a soul b) are a soul c) are deluded d) other?


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, and , if this is the case, then how is it possible for people to have OBE's?

Is a soul necessary to have an OBE?  Is it even involved if it exists?

I think the term "soul" is much too tainted with implied meanings to have any meaning at all anymore.

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2006, 18:46:22 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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MisterJingo
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2006, 19:54:36 »

I'd do a search as there has been some quite lengthy discussions on this subject smiley.
 But regarding souls, I don't believe we have them. I more agree with the following philosophy:
"We havent got a soul, we are a soul".

 But as Jilola said above, the word soul is pretty ambiguous and seems more an idea then anything else. I'd be interested to know the origin of the whole 'soul' idea.
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jilola
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 15:43:03 »

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"We havent got a soul, we are a soul".

That one has deeper ramifications considering the wording. That is my take as well.

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I'd be interested to know the origin of the whole 'soul' idea.

I christian terms I supppose it boils down to God's breath needed to be put into Adam to make him alive.

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 17:03:31 »

Maybe natural selection was intellegently designed.
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 17:03:31 »



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greatoutdoors
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 19:16:15 »

Max,

I am not sure I follow your logic, so I am going to do a bit of exploring here.

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if modern man is a product of natural selection, would it not then be safe to assume that, because of the process, that we cannot have a soul

Logically, the "soul" is a part of the natural world, like hearing, sight, etc. Therefore, it would be part of the selection process along with everything else. It could be expressed differently in different organisms, but would not have to be (or even likely be) exclusive to humans.

Dogs have a sharp sense of smell and lesser vision. Elephants have phenomal hearing but are weak in other areas. Humans have tool-using ability (opposable thumb) but not much else. Hmmmm, wonder if dolhins or whales have more of a "soul" than humans?

We humans are way too arrogant about our own supposed supremacy. Even Buddhists speak of "this precious human body" (there is no emoticon for gag me!). Natural selection is nothing more than a dice game. It is not a process that guarantees evolving into something "higher" or "better." And there is certainly nothing about natural selection that guarantees humans are "more evolved" anything. It is simply nature rolling the dice.

If a particular trait doesn't work, the species with that trait dies off. Nature is totally indifferent about the outcome. So what makes humans think we are so great? We could well wind up being one of those evolutionary blind alleys everyone talks about but nobody thinks about!

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how is it possible for people to OBE

Why not? There is no evidence that a "soul" (however you define it) is a requirement for OBEs. All you have to have is a particular electrical pulse running through a particular synapse. It is a physical ability, like dreaming. In fact, it is pretty closly connected to dreaming. Dogs dream. They may also have the ability to go OBE. Same point could be made for many other animals. Who knows about insects!  shocked

It could well be that all of our metaphysical abilities are made possible by the physical traits inherent in our brain. It dies, we die, end of story. That's a puzzle I am still trying to work out.  :confused:

So my final answer would be that one does not necessarily have a bearing on the other.
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jilola
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 20:38:05 »

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Even Buddhists speak of "this precious human body" (there is no emoticon for gag me!).


But the human body is precious only because it gives us the opportunity to appreciate life as a consciousness unfolding. Not because it's inherently better than the body of any other  creature.
That is why the buddhists hold every form of life as equally precious and sacrosanct.


2cents & L&L
Jouni
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 20:49:28 »

Why bother arguing the fact?  I certainly don't need max or anyone else to validate what I've experienced nor my beliefs.
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jilola
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 22:01:22 »

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Why bother arguing the fact? I certainly don't need max or anyone else to validate what I've experienced nor my beliefs.

Because the original poster asked the questions? The discussion may reveal further insight into the term "soul" that so far is about as vague as a cloud of fog.

If you don't need validation then don't look for it  smiley  

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 22:11:15 »

Geez, jilola, you ok?  cheesy

IMO, which I am allowed to say, I think it is a big waste of time to argue endlessly about something that will not all of a sudden, after thousands of years, reveal further insight.  It make no bit of difference in our life.... I'm sorry, MY life.  

I know what I know, and I'm confortable with that.  When I said, "I certainly don't need max or anyone else to validate what I've experienced nor my beliefs."  I should have said, "why do you guys need validation, stop arguing about something neither one is going to be able to prove to the other...we can only prove it to ourself"  And in my book, that is good enough.
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mactombs
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 22:25:32 »

"We havent got a soul, we are a soul".

I like that.

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"why do you guys need validation..."


I don't know. Insecurity? Why do we need social verification, why do children need approval from their parents and peers? I think it has to do with our social nature. Just like when one person sees something amazing, they turn to their friend and say, "Did you just see that?"
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jilola
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 23:17:39 »

Quote from: Nay
Geez, jilola, you ok? Laughing

Yep. NO worries.


Quote from: Nay
IMO, which I am allowed to say,

Of course you are.

Quote from: Nay
I think it is a big waste of time to argue endlessly about something that will not all of a sudden, after thousands of years, reveal further insight.

That's the same as saying Newton, Bohr et al. should have stopped trying to figure out the world bacause it had been done for millennia without anyone coming up with modern physics.

Quote from: Nay
It make no bit of difference in our life.... I'm sorry, MY life.

Perhaps not in yours but it might in someon else's? It's a tall statement to say it makes no difference in "our" lives".

 And yes, it is you life. You have the authority to steer it as you see fit. Nobody is denying that smiley

Quote from: Nay
I know what I know, and I'm confortable with that. When I said, "I certainly don't need max or anyone else to validate what I've experienced nor my beliefs." I should have said, "why do you guys need validation, stop arguing about something neither one is going to be able to prove to the other...we can only prove it to ourself" And in my book, that is good enough.

Perhaps and still that would've been a strange thing to say (see above about physics.)
The only way things advance is by poking it until something gives up a clue. Ending arguments (debate really, and intelligent hypothesizing) means progress toward further understanding stops.

The statement "since it works don't think about it" works until the thing stops working or one wants to refine it.

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2006, 23:36:32 »

Spoiling, I see. grin

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That's the same as saying Newton, Bohr et al. should have stopped trying to figure out the world bacause it had been done for millennia without anyone coming up with modern physics.
Maybe it correlates for you, but it doesn't for me, no big deal.

Quote
perhaps not in yours but it might in someone else's? It's a tall statement to say it makes no difference in "our" lives".

And yes, it is you life. You have the authority to steer it as you see fit. Nobody is denying that smiley
 I said "MY" because I didn't want to speak for anyone else and saying our would be me making an assumption, see? What are you getting at, Jilola?..

Quote
Perhaps and still that would've been a strange thing to say (see above about physics.)
 I know shite about physics.  Are you saying now my opinion is null and void?

Quote
The only way things advance is by poking it until something gives up a clue. Ending arguments (debate really, and intelligent hypothesizing) means progress toward further understanding stops.

The statement "since it works don't think about it" works until the thing stops working or one wants to refine it.
 You can poke and poke all you want, I don't care.. I don't need to poke, I embrace.

Are we done?
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Nay
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2006, 23:40:15 »

Quote from: mactombs
"We havent got a soul, we are a soul".

I like that.

Quote
"why do you guys need validation..."


I don't know. Insecurity? Why do we need social verification, why do children need approval from their parents and peers? I think it has to do with our social nature. Just like when one person sees something amazing, they turn to their friend and say, "Did you just see that?"
 Ok.  grin
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2006, 00:14:36 »

I guess the only reason I can give to such questions as “why analyse?” is that, as we gain more experience, we have more knowledge to re-evaluate fundamental questions in the light of this new knowledge. Just as a child’s intellect and understanding grows from probing the world, I think our understanding of self and our relationship to reality grows from such probing too.
Most of the knowledge we have regarding the soul, the afterlife, energies etc comes from a world we no longer inhabit. It comes from a time when mans understanding of the world was radically different to ours (such as reality being made of the 4 elements, the universe being built of water, and the Gods creating thunder and lightening etc). I don’t mean this in a condescending way, this was simply the best evaluation based on the knowledge of those times, I just mean we know a lot of reality to be very different, and we should re-evaluate what we think we know in terms of this new knowledge. This has been started by people attempting to link quantum theory to spiritual philosophies – but I feel they are still hanging on to the old ideas and bending the new knowledge to fit.
 Regardless of what I believe, I respect the rights of others to believe what they want, and even to believe my views are those of a person walking up a blind allyway smiley.
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Nay
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2006, 00:20:58 »

Searching for answers is great, but I thought I was talking about arguing and trying to convince others of what they believe to be the truth.  There is just no point, at least to me there isn't.  smiley
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2006, 00:24:50 »

Quote from: Nay
Searching for answers is great, but I thought I was talking about arguing and trying to convince others of what they believe to be the truth.  There is just no point, at least to me there isn't.  smiley


AH, then I 100% agree with you there. One thing I look down upon is people who try and impose their own beliefs on others, or think they are superior in some way due to those beliefs.
 In my own life, my partner of the past 3 years is devoutly catholic; she goes to church weekly and helps run guide groups etc in the church. Her belief is very different from mine, but I respect her right to her own beliefs. We do talk about our own philosophies, but never in a way to ‘convert’ the other etc. I’d actually feel quite bad attempting to change her beliefs as I know how important they are to her.
 I’ve found it best to never preach, but happily answer questions if asked.
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Nay
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2006, 00:39:52 »

Wow, that is impressive!   That's like a Republican being with a Democrat..

I think that is wonderful, Jingo!!  Hug her for me, will ya?
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Max
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2006, 08:35:38 »

Boy some of you people I can't help but laugh at ( Nay ) because your feelings get hurt so easily. My original question was not about challenging anyone's belief but rather asking what your view point on the subject is. Which, of course, means  i am open to what you have to say. I personally don't have a belief about it one way or another. I'm simply curious about certain thoughts I am having difficulties comprehending. If this ruffles your feathers then that is your problem.
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2006, 11:11:25 »

Quote from: Nay
Wow, that is impressive!   That's like a Republican being with a Democrat..

I think that is wonderful, Jingo!!  Hug her for me, will ya?


Lol. It perhaps does sound like a strange pairing, but it seems to work well wink. I gave her a hug for you too grin.
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Nay
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2006, 14:48:05 »

Quote from: Max
Boy some of you people I can't help but laugh at ( Nay ) because your feelings get hurt so easily. My original question was not about challenging anyone's belief but rather asking what your view point on the subject is. Which, of course, means  i am open to what you have to say. I personally don't have a belief about it one way or another. I'm simply curious about certain thoughts I am having difficulties comprehending. If this ruffles your feathers then that is your problem.

 
cheesy  My feelings were not hurt, and I gave up feathers long ago, they make me sneeze.   :locolaugh:  

 :tongue2:  Nay
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Nay
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2006, 14:54:42 »

Quote
Lol. It perhaps does sound like a strange pairing, but it seems to work well wink I gave her a hug for you too grin
 

I really admire you two, truly!  It takes understanding, acceptance and being secure in your own beliefs, IMO, to make it work.  :hail1: :mrgreen:
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