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Problems in the School System

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no_leaf_clover

A lot of people actually encourage dropping out if you'd like to specialize in areas public schools can't help you with. Thomas Edison dropped out. I can't remember if Einstein dropped out, but I know he failed his math classes horribly. Public schools are just around to make the average citizen more well-rounded.
What is the sound of no leaves cloving?

Osiris

Greetings,

Here is a recent info that I saw on the cloud-busters forums[:)]

quote:
Teaching Math in 1950:


A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of
production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?


Teaching Math in 1960:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of

production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?


Teaching Math in 1970:

A logger exchanges a set "L" of lumber for a set "M" of

money. The cardinality of set "M" is 100. Each element
is worth one dollar. Make 100 dots representing the

elements of the set "M." The set "C," the cost of
production contains 20 fewer points than set "M."

Represent the set "C" as subset of set "M" and answer

the following question: What is the cardinality of the set
"P" of profits?


Teaching Math in 1980:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of

production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment:

Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math in 1990:


By cutting down beautiful forest trees, the logger
makes $20. What do you think of this way of making

a living? Topic for class participation after answering
the question: How did the forest birds and squirrels

"feel" as the logger cut down the trees? There are no

wrong answers.

Teaching Math in 2002:


A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost
of production is $120. How does Arthur Andersen

determine that his profit margin is $60?


Teaching Math in 2010:

El hachero vende un camion carga por $100. La

cuesta de production...


Yours,

Osiris.


PeacefulWarrior

I am actually working towards my Masters of Education and will start teaching high school English in a year or so.  I sub right now.

First of all, it's important, especially as a student, to realize that the teachers are definetly aware of these problems (not all, but most).  Here in California the State standards and framework for Education is causing major problems.  Then you have discipline problems, budget problems, etc. etc.  It's a very complicated issue and it really shouldn't be.  The problem is the beauracracy (I know I didn't spell that correctly, but I stopped trying to figure that word out a long time ago...some English teacher I am going to be eh??)

Anyway, I say stick with school, go to college and then unleash the dragon in Grad school...the liberty to study and research and rewrite the rules really comes later in life, although don't let that stop you from doing it now, but I think a good, solid, well rounded education is in the best interest of every individual (and that doesn't go for everyone, but for most people it's important...especially if you want to make a living doing something you like).

Dan
We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, we shall arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
T.S. Elliot
---------------
fides quaerens intellectum

Jenadots

Hi, Shadow watcher.  Sounds like you are very frustrated and thinking of dropping out of school.  Please reconsider.

I have been a teacher and school program manager for 30 something years.  It is frustrating and the present system certainly needs smaller classes and more exploratory learning projects.  

I am in a school that has students that range from the most gifted to the most challanged, and all levels of ability in between.  I have seen faces light up with understanding as well as faces filled with boredom.  

Actually, I assume I would cut my own class a few times a month, and I only teach 2 and manage special programs the rest of the time.

Most teachers and principals are well aware of the problems in our schools, would like to see something different, but face great difficulties in that.  

I think what has been bothering me most about school in the past  year is the difference I see in American students and students in other countries who are so eager for learning.  I see the happiness of the kids in Afghanistan returning to school in rags, to work on chalk boards, with no books, in a bombed out building.  Yet they have a passion for whatever the lesson is and are far more attentive to it than most American students.  

I also been wondering if any of what I have done for 30 years has made a difference - if any of it matters.  I know there are kids I taught to write, and kids I helped, and kids I wasn't able to help or teach.  

As a teacher, I wish I had smaller classes and more time during the day just to talk with students - not lecture them, not discipline them - but really have a conversation about anything that interests them.  But there is so little time for that now as we have become so test crazed that no one outside of the schools wants to year that not all success is measured by test scores.  

Yes, our schools are too "institutionalized" - not prisons, but certainly rigid in too many ways.  I do wish, tho that more of my students would be more interested in real learning and exploring of ideas than they seem to be. They too have become so grade driven and so stressed out from school and jobs and activities and social issues.  And underneath all the teenage angst and bravado, they are so lonely, so anxious for somebody - anybody - to pay them some kind of attention on a meaningful level that they will do and say all manner of outrageous things.  

The gifted and average kid kind of gets lost in the school shuffle while so much of our attention is given to the more disruptive and troublesome students.  It is easy to see why you might be frustrated with it all.

But if you are feeling stifled, find something or someplace where you can give your creativity free reign, where it can be nourished and grow.  Find something that satisfies you outside of school and try to bring that something into school with you.  You will find you have better school days and your creativity will expand into them.

Good luck this school year.  I am looking forward to meeting my students in a few weeks and will try to remember your words to help me have better classes for them.  [:)]

Kazbadan

In Portugal we have the same problems too...but it´s even worst!

The greatest objective in the school it´s to get high results in the exames and try to have minimal positive results if you are a bad student.

The system is made in a such way that kids have serious problems with Maths, and the guiltys are always the teachers...not the government that insists using models of teaching from the last century...

Of course that fathers and teachers are guiltys too. About students fathers: if a child has a bad result let´s say, in History, everybody at home says that the children it´s not a good student, but if the same result is achieved in Math...oh, "the problem it´s not from the child, Maths it´s very difficult...no one is good at that". And with this kind of thougt, children starts to learn that they can have bad results on Maths (or Physics) since that it´s to difficult for anyone.

Teaching it´s starting to get difficult too. Childrens don´t have any education at home, and when they come to school it´s difficult to change that ("Hey, in my house I can say bad words, why not the same at school?!).

There are many reaons and things that i could point, but the true is, that in Portugal the scenario it is bad too...[:(]
I love you!

goingslow

I would just like to point out for every Einstein or Bill Gates there are thousands of others who drop out and find they cant get a decent job or advance in any field.

Things get better as you go on to higher education.  I didnt care much for school and thought it wasn't very challenging.. plus my school was a pretty poor one.  But I really enjoyed the freedom of college and unfortuntely the "real world" and the working situation isn't much better.  Just tough it out it really will be over before you know it.  






shadowatcher

1. Goingslow: good point about how not everyone makes it. But you fail to mention that not everyone who goes through the school system makes it. How many people who had degrees in Russia or China, then came to the US, and found it was all worthless? thousands. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Just as many people who drop out cant get get a job as people who didnt drop out. Why should you waste 20 years to be another unemployed person...with a degree?

2. Kazbadan: I thought the situation was better in other countries, but obviously its not. It might just be that the US is taking over everywhere...but no...that cant be...(sarcasm)

3. Jenadots: This forum is the only escape I get from prison (school). I feel respected as an adult here, even though Im only 13. I enjoy the atmosphere of family which I definetely do not get at home. Thanks for your valuable comments. I hope you have a great school year! (If thats possible)

4. PeacefulWarrior: Im really glad that someone in the education bussiness posted on this forum. You bring up the (overused) valid point that if you want a highpaying job you like, the more education the better. Actually, Im learning programming and I want to design games. I also make mods for online games. I hope to become a game designer/writer one day. Most game developers dont have pasta highschool education anyway, so guess I made a good choice:[;)]!

5. Osiris: funny stuff...[:P]

6. no_leaf_clover: You can read my mind, thats exactly what Im talking about.

no_leaf_clover

quote:
I would just like to point out for every Einstein or Bill Gates there are thousands of others who drop out and find they cant get a decent job or advance in any field.


Well, I'd say those Einsteins, Gates and Edisons would have sense enough to recognize their potential and not end up working at McDonalds.
What is the sound of no leaves cloving?

goingslow

quote:
Originally posted by no_leaf_clover

quote:
I would just like to point out for every Einstein or Bill Gates there are thousands of others who drop out and find they cant get a decent job or advance in any field.


Well, I'd say those Einsteins, Gates and Edisons would have sense enough to recognize their potential and not end up working at McDonalds.



What?  yes Einstein Gates and Edison realized their potential.  Thats why we know their name.  Theres nothing to support the idea that people who realize their potential (know they're intelligent) end up making it.  You're looking at ones that did not many who just KNEW they could have been something.

I just think its a little overused and not thought out when people use them as an example as if its a good reason to drop out.  They are very rare.. but hey if you know you're in that crowd drop out of highschool right now.

I think you see it from a different perspective when you get older.  I remember thinking at your age it didnt matter.  After all bill gates did it.  Until you get out into the real world.  There are always exceptions, but there are also always trends and rules.  If you only look at exceptions you might end up disappointed.

goingslow

BTW didnt Bill Gates drop out of COLLEGE?  why are 15 year olds using that as an example.  Einstein was a genius and Im sorry but I dont think there are many einsteins even on this forum.

A highschool degree now is a lot more important than a highschool degree was back then.  If you have some sort of inspiration and school is holding you back then go ahead and go for it.  But if you drop out because it sucks then have fun going to a job 8 hours a day.  Yes Freedom at last!

BTW that isnt true about programmers.

shadowatcher

But John Carmack and John Romero are my inspirations. They both spent years in juvie and never got past a highschool level....

PeacefulWarrior

Shadowwatcher:
Don't be too hasty in your decision.  I recently saw a special about how many coleges and universities are beginning to offer degrees in game design and programming and now many gaming companies are hiring these youg people, who, by the way, start making an average of $70,000 per year (that's more than $30,000 than the avg. starting teacher makes).

A formal education is a VERY good idea regardless of who has dropped out of school and become a gazillionaire.
We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, we shall arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
T.S. Elliot
---------------
fides quaerens intellectum

shadowatcher

Yes, I know, but I want to make it on my own. You can get a 15,000 dollar grant from the US government for starting a new company, and I already have a couple of good friends who want to join me in making a company. If we also pooled our college savings we would have around 100,000 dollars! If our game company works out, we would all have good reps in the gaming world, and be able to get jobs in major companies!

borealis

Shadowatcher,
I agree with many of your points regarding schooling. These issues were raised and re-raised by fellow students and teachers throughout my schooling years. Unfortunately, this was also used as an excuse to drop out or not bother at all in the classroom.

I also observe, that not one person that has raised this issue to me decided to go in and make a change, or as they say - a difference. You are welcome to prove my observation wrong.

With regards to one of your inspirations (Carmack), even he mentions that he could of gotten more out of his time at Uni (1) but it came down to that he hadn't "acquired a really good attitude towards learning from all possible sources yet.".

Which sums up nicely what I want to say. At the end of day, it's your attidude that defines your relationship with something. Not happy with school? Feeling your creativity is being held back? Start a "games programming club" and direct your energies where you wish. School/Uni is one of the few places where you have a chance of using resources for free, make the most of that. Of course, these are just suggestions.

Best of luck to you mate,

Borealis

(1) - http://slashdot.org/interviews/99/10/15/1012230.shtml Nice interview, recommend to at least read it lightly.

no_leaf_clover

quote:
BTW didnt Bill Gates drop out of COLLEGE? why are 15 year olds using that as an example. Einstein was a genius and Im sorry but I dont think there are many einsteins even on this forum.


Einstein was just a well-known example. If I knew of anyone else I'd give you more names. There are actually organizations out there that support people who drop out of high school to reach whatever goal they have set for life. You're starting to go in the direction of personal attacks there, Goingslow. I can't change the fact that I'm 15, I really wouldn't care to, and that's none of your business.
What is the sound of no leaves cloving?

shadowatcher

Most schools today are run rather like prisons. You spend an average of 5 minutes a day learning, then 6 hours and 55 minutes reviewing what you learned with mindless busywork. Lunch breaks in most US schools are between 15 minutes and 30 minutes. Students are discouraged from origanal thinking and problem solving. Unfortunately, when a smart child enters the system, he usually does poorly. Why? because smart, creative children dont really need to work hard on the busy work for the first few grades. So they never develope the "Basic Learning Skills" that most other children develope. However, this doesnt mean they are stupid, it just means they were too smart to conform to a failing system. They never learned to conform and work on busy work. They just think to creatively to spend hours working. So what happens to these kids? they ussually do poorly in school, and then amaze everyone by become succeses anyway! Take Bill Gates, for example. Creator of Microsoft. He dropped out of school and formed his company, microsoft. In 10 years, he was the richest man alive. Our current system of school is horrible!