The Problem of Pain, Suffering, and Evil

[no_leaf_clover]

if there was no suffering or pain, or any problems or trouble at all, what would we learn from our experiences on earth? everybody would be fine and live a perfectly normal life style.. honestly, if you think about it, life would be pretty boring (and that should say a little about human nature).

i think we experience troubles to learn, like karma explains. we may have to suffer more or less than others in life, but whatever happens to us, we had it coming, and in the end it will do us a favor. as an example, when you are constantly depressed, as i once was, when you finally overcome it and enjoy life again, you can maybe appreciate life a little more, and possibly become more conditioned and harder to upset or depress, unless we have some kind of medical condition, of course.

does that help any? i tried to avoid religious terms.. i couldn't exaplain to you anything about god, as i'm atheist and wouldn't be able to.

[clandestino]

hi neg 5, Interesting topic.

I was raised as a Catholic, but my views have changed somewhat over the years. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in God, but not with a capital "G", i guess. I see god as our creator, in the same way that we, as individuals, are gods to the worlds we create / experiences we have.

From this point of view, our god was probably created himself.
(ps my views aren't from personal experience, they're just conjecture so take them as such...)

Ok....in this context, "pain, suffering & evil" cease to be a problem. Pain is merely a signal to the mind that something dangerous / undesirable is occurring. Suffering could be viewed as the non-physical aspect of pain. Evil is merely a human concept; in fact, it is a perspective on events. Consider a doctor who has killed up to 500 elderly patients through lethal injection..(happened in the UK recently). Me and you view him as evil, crazy. But he doesn't regret his actions.... he may even believe that he was doing a favour for his victims.

Was he evil ? regardless of his psychological state, was there an underlying "evil" factor, some kind of entity that is foreign to human nature ? I don't believe so. I think that his actions were despicable in the extreme...this is my perception.
cheers
Mark

[neg removal5]

Who thinks pain, suffering, and evil will be with us in our world forever.  Will it only be an aspect of the physical world?  does not everyone believe that pain, suffering, and evil is also part of certain parts of the spiritual world.

Also in our physical world we have such things as tornadoes, earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanoes, and other such calamities.

Does anyone know of such calamities or flaws in the spiritual realm? I guess are there any tunnels that go wrong, or any vortex's that can injure or take the lives of spiritual entities in that realm that such entities have learned to avoid?  What environmental dangers exist in these spiritual realms, besides the ones attributable to harmful entities?  They may not be known by the names above, but has anyone heard of such calamities in the spiritual realm?  Or is the spiritual realm basically perfect, except for the harmful entities that sometimes exist in certain parts of it?

[greatoutdoors]

Here's some stuff I have come up with on this, and it's purely my speculation.

I have always had problems with the explanations I get from religious groups on why suffering exists. Christians and Jews are told that God does not cause suffering and that only good things come from God (I'm starting with them, but not picking on them.) But in the book of Job, God makes a bet with Satan that Job can't be tortured into turning against God. Hmmmmm. Then look at the book of Judges. One example there - God told His prophet to meet with a ruler that God had decided needed replacing. He told this prophet to pretend the meeting was for peaceful discussions, but at an opportune moment to take out a  hidden knife and kill the guy. The prophet did it. Again, hmmmmmm. So, okay, how do other religions handle this? I have found a bunch that start with the love of a divine being (or beings), but nearly all have problems similar to the above. It didn't take long to figure out that Islam is not a contender. Again, all good things come from "above", but if bad things happen, you've either been "bad" or you weren't really one of the "faithful" anyway and all bets are off. Hindu was interesting until I learned they think it's fine to abuse, persecute, or kill folks who are supposedly below you on the "purity" ladder. India's "Untouchables" are a prime example of this philosophy.

So I looked at science to see if an answer was there. That got interesting. Looking at the food chain, there is nothing I can find, including plant life, that doesn't have to kill or abuse something else to survive. Even grass -- in order to get the water and food it needs it must push aside less aggressive plants. I can't think of one case where this is not true, even down to the unicellular level. That leads me to a few different theories:

1. There is no higher purpose or being and the only reason evil and suffering exist is because it is the nature of the world we inhabit. This scenario raises a new question: why does mercy and kindness exist?

2. Given that we have lived before, and given that many religions teach that evil deeds will be punished, maybe Earth is Hell (or pick your term)and we are simply "doing our time". (This is not a new idea, of course.)

3. Given that our scientists routinely do psychological studies on small "critters", even down to Planaria worms, this could be a carefully orchestrated study conducted by some cosmic researcher that we can't even imagine. I seriously doubt that even something as large as a mouse or rat can comprehend humans as we do ourselves. And I do not believe flatworms can have any idea that humans exist at all.

Having said all the above, I almost hope possibility #2 is true. If so, the astral plane could be our "peek" into the realm where perhaps we really belong. And if that's true, then maybe the folks there do not have to go through the crap we are subjected to here.

I would be really interested in any discussion on this post. I am always open-minded and would love to be convinced of more positive reasons.

[neg removal5]

Hi everyone

Your posts and replies are interesting.

The problem that I wrestle with, and that probably most every other human being wrestles with is if God is all loving and is good, then why is their pain and suffering.  And why does he allow evil entities to exist out there causing harm to other people.  Also why does he allow all the problems that presently exist such as people that have passed away and don't know how to find their way to the light, etc.  Why doesn't he instantly fix those types of problems if he is all loving and all good.

I have wrestled with these questions and researched the issue for many years.  I have finally came up with the answer listed above on my very first post made in this topic.  However, there could be another answer besides that one, and usually discussions lend to new ideas, or new theories, and new possibilities.  Even if the discussion may involve people that don't believe that God exists.  Their answers can still she some interesting and different perspectives on the problem of pain, suffering, and evil.

I hope others will give their input on this issue and on any other related issues to it.

[Tisha]

Ahhhhhh . . . musings on the nature of this Predator Universe.  I went on a rant about this many moons ago.  I wonder if I can find it?

[neg removal5]

Don't ask me how it did what it is doing up above, because I have no idea.  All I can say is just follow it one line at at time, as it apparently seems to repeat after it reaches the end of the sentences.

[Tisha]

OK!  I found it !!!!  Here is an old snippet!

*******************************************************

OK boys and girls, shush for a moment! (claps hands, blows whistle) Come with me on a little trip where we shall catch our breaths and gain a little perspective.(we all hold hands and fly to Someplace in the real-time-zone, maybe the moon, where we can look down on big blue marble Earth)

Frequent Astral travelers, like Monroe, Casteneda, etc., came to a disturbing realization long ago that we live in a Predator Universe. Stars and galaxies devour and put out more energy than we can even conceive. On Earth, what we call the Food Chain is the same energy transfer . . . devouring energy and putting it out . . . life feeding on death. Humans, as part of the Food Chain, are predators. We use. We take energy and transform it into other things. It's our job.

You can try to get out of the Cycle . . . become a vegetarian, a peacenik, a(pinko ) communist, an envionmentalist, a buddhist, join a co-op, buy a bike, whatever you think it takes to sideline yourself from this deadly dance. But you just can't. Even the act of breathing kills . . . little mites you don't even see. And after all, you have to eat, you have to keep warm. You must transform energy. (I thought I was taking my cats out of the Food Chain by keeping them indoors and feeding them kibble. But what's in the kibble? Chicken bits, fish bits, bits I don't even want to know about. There is no escape.)

In human history, War is the norm, Peace is the exception. In fact, our very concept of "Peace" might be a little warped. Is "Peace" nothing more than the rare, brief moment in earth-time where we are blissfully unaware of the Predator Universe? Or does "Peace" happen when we are in the rare, priveleged situation where we get to do all the devouring, and everyone and everything else here on earth (animal flesh, plants, natural resources like oil, the toil of other people who aren't like "us") is the Devoured?

I'm starting to wonder. I wrote a little essay on the Predator Universe and lost it in an unintended keystroke, so I must not have been meant to post that rant that day. But bear with me here, I might not be the most eloquent in putting this out, but think about War, the U.S., Iraq, the rest of the world and its history in its overall context of a Predator Universe. The Iraq/US/World/oil/power struggle is just another dance at the Predator Prom. You say it's not RIGHT. But in the predator universe, what is "right?" I personally want Saddam Hussein and his two brothers to be transformed into tiny bloody bits, to become food for worms and bacteria. But at what cost? I've not yet decided.

OK, I've creeped myself out big time. What to do now? How are we going to live in this dog-eat-dog universe? Do we want to be the dog, or the, um, er . . . the dog? I guess the answer is that we can choose how we play out the Predator drama in our human interactions, if we keep our eyes open and stay aware. We can devour the earth's resources fast, or we can devour them slow, but we can't stop devouring them. And someday, we shall become the Devoured. Our turn will come.

I don't know what to say next. Perhaps I should log off and eat something, turn up the heat in my home, and gas up my car. I don't know. Maybe I'll just go shopping. That's what I do when I'm stressed out.

[strwrs_guru]

i've been gone a bit and i am catching up on older posts, so please bear with me

an athiest friend of mine once said(not sure if its his quote or not), "if heaven is all perfect and happy without any pain, how will you know you are happy? dont you need pain and suffering to be able to measure your happiness up against?"

he shook me a little with that one.

i used to be a blind follower of God accepting everything and trying to convince everyone they needed to jump on board for their own good.my athiest friend also challenged me to read everything i could on the subject(as i love to read), and then make an educated stand on the subject.

well here it is years later and i did follow his advice. i have soaked up a lot of knoweledge on the subject and i am no longer a devout follower. oh i still believe in God, but for all of you that sees this big loving being.............take another look.

no leaf has a point that we do learn from our negative experiences, but i still have a hard time understanding how or what parents are supposed to be learning from their little kids getting kidnapped and molested and mutilated!!![!] where is the good God in any of that? and dont give me any crap about the parents had bad karma and this was what they had coming.

i have watched good people get crapped on in every horrible way while an obviously mean hearted evil jerk seems to thrive in this world. i am sorry neg removal5, but i fail to see how this was the lesser of two evils our creator could pick.

and clandestino..... yeah there have been some people who do not believe they are doinf wrong. after all the judgement level of right and wrong are made up of the majority vote. if they feel its wrong, its made law. look at some of the middle eastern countries where the women are not even treated as good as the cows. they dont feel thats wrong. but we over here in america do. so whos right and whos wrong? who knows.........all i do know is that certain atrocities are without a doubt, obvious,to every man and womens hearts, as wrong.

sorry to rant.......to sum it all up.......God is not all loving, or else he would prevent a whole bunch of things from occuring. all the pain and suffering is summed up simply by seeing God as one big neutral bystander. evil wins here as much if not more than good does. this either shows me a neutral being in control or a good being that is powerless to stop the bad.

[ronaldo]

Hey Neg

Whats going on with that post, it took me 30 mins to read and now i've got eye strain

[neg removal5]

Anyone want to try to tackle this issue?  I believe it is "Theodicy" which is the field that covers the problem of "pain, suffering,and evil".

I believe that God has a certain kind of nature, and that if God ever made the mistake of going against his own nature, that this world would be 100 times more messed up than what it is.  In other words if God made the mistake of going against his nature, by doing so it would corrupt God, himself, and all of his creation would turn into a dark nightmare.

When humans sinned against God, if that is what it can be called, he had two choices.  He could react to our sin and impose certain consequences, and still basically preserve the good order of things, even though it meant there would be some pain, suffering, and evil on the earth.  Or he could have went against his nature, and not imposed those certain consequences, and by going against his Nature he would have corrupted himself, and his creation would have become completely twisted and into some kind of a situation that is 100 times worse than it is.

In other words are present situation is the best of two possible outcomes that existed.

I would be interested in hearing about others view of the problem of pain, suffering, and evil and why they think it exists.  I'm interested in viewpoints from people who have theistic views of God or some other kind of belief or view of God.  I'm also interested in people's views who do not believe in God, and how they feel the problem of pain, suffering, and evil came into existence and if they feel their are any remedies for improving mankind's condition.