do you acculy leave the body?

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Realm Of Gods

I am into astral projection and i been trying for awhile but do you acculy leave the body or is it a mind game?

Xanth

Quote from: Realm Of Gods on February 09, 2014, 20:40:09
I am into astral projection and i been trying for awhile but do you acculy leave the body or is it a mind game?
Well you're going to get a lot of different perspectives.
My perspective is that it's neither of those options you've presented... if you want to know more about my perspective it's all over this forum, do a search.  :)

Apart from that, the only way to really KNOW for yourself is to do it.  We can definitely help you in that regards. 

Realm Of Gods


Astralsuzy

Xanth is correct.   You will get different answers.   As Xanth said, the best way to know is find out for yourself.

Stillwater

For what it's worth, my two cents:

I think it is all in our head, and we don't leave our bodies. I think everything in the projection environment is a product of our brain interpreting a metaphysical reality with the equipment it has to work with. If we see a postman, or Sean Connery, or the devil, I think it is our brain taking raw data and converting it into a form that is symbolically meaningful to us. You can go to places you have never been, and see them somewhat accurately sometimes, but you will find that your mind fills in a lot of the blanks, and it is hard to sort out what you yourself authored from what has "objective" existence outside yourself- at least it has been for me.
"The Gardener is but a dream of the Garden."

-Unattributed Zen monastic

Xanth

That's pretty much how I see it as well,  Stillwater.
I came to the same conclusion when I noticed how my perception works even while physically awake.  Have you ever looked at something, any object, and what you saw confused you for a second or two until you "recognised" it?  Up until that point it was, at least for me, a jumbled mess of confusion.

Well our nonphysical perception works EXACTLY like that.  That's because there really isn't any line between physical and nonphysical and it really illustrates what Stillwater says above.

Phaedrus

Quote from: Stillwater on February 10, 2014, 04:06:02
For what it's worth, my two cents:

I think it is all in our head, and we don't leave our bodies. I think everything in the projection environment is a product of our brain interpreting a metaphysical reality with the equipment it has to work with. If we see a postman, or Sean Connery, or the devil, I think it is our brain taking raw data and converting it into a form that is symbolically meaningful to us. You can go to places you have never been, and see them somewhat accurately sometimes, but you will find that your mind fills in a lot of the blanks, and it is hard to sort out what you yourself authored from what has "objective" existence outside yourself- at least it has been for me.

That's really interesting, Stillwater.

FWIW, my two cents is that we do actually leave our physical bodies, but you've given another perspective that provides a  lot to think about.

JUst one thing - you said "You can go to places you have never been, and see them somewhat accurately sometimes". How can that happen without us leaving our bodies ?

Xanth

Quote from: Phaedrus on February 10, 2014, 10:51:11
That's really interesting, Stillwater.

FWIW, my two cents is that we do actually leave our physical bodies, but you've given another perspective that provides a  lot to think about.

JUst one thing - you said "You can go to places you have never been, and see them somewhat accurately sometimes". How can that happen without us leaving our bodies ?
Because you're not limited to your own life perceptions.  You are everything... You have all data available to you, data from everyone and everything.  You aren't your body, nor are you a body.  :-)

I'm sure stillwater can provide an answer too.   Lol

Volgerle

You leave your body. But I assume it's a bit different than it is imagined in simplistic terms because reality is different. The main question is of course: what is "you" or what is 'leaving' during AP?

Actually "you" is more than this body you inhabit, which is itself only a part of your greater You (your "Higher Self"). It's a matter of focus.

When you "leave" your body you "re-connect" with your larger mind that already existed (possibly forever), you- re-focus, change perspective, so to speak. By this you can get 'data' from other realities as well as this reality. Sometimes it mixes up and you get reality fluctuations (skeptics like them for debunking exercises  :wink: ).

However there is a big enough and very convincing body of proof already gathered for the "realness" by OBE (also NDEs and Remote Viewing produce tons of evidence, see literature on this).

Since I never get tired of giving this link, here's a collection about evidence by AP:

http://da-lai.lima-city.de/OBE/index.html

Have fun.  8-)

Stillwater

QuoteJUst one thing - you said "You can go to places you have never been, and see them somewhat accurately sometimes". How can that happen without us leaving our bodies ?

Ok... so I have never been to Jamaica. But I have seen Jamaica in film footage. I have experienced Jamaica in a limited sense without having to leave the country (in this analogy, replace "country" with "body" to get the full meaning). The experience of Jamaica for me was fully in my head. What do I mean by this? Well, I have not communed with Jamaica in the fullest sense in actually being present there, but my film footage was data that my brain was able to interpret as images of a place called Jamaica. So too I have come to understand projection. Time and space are not constraints, and more importantly they are definitely not constraints of non-physical reality. You are suggesting that I need to leave my body to actually see Jamaica, because you are thinking of it in terms of physical travel. There is no travel, there is only being there, or not being there. Leaving your body to me is a phrase that doesn't compute, because there is nowhere to go, when there is no such thing as space or distance.

There are what we call "real time zone" experiences, where it seems like we are viewing a facsimile of the objective physical world. I think this is why such experiences are partly accurate, and partly not- because we are trying to have an experience that is similar to our waking lives in the physical world, but that is not what things are at their core. Such experiences are heavily constructed around what our expectations are, so while we may be reading some "objective" outside data to represent the spaces to ourselves, we can't separate that data from what we expect the place to be like.

For example, say I visited a fishing village in Jamaica in my projection. I don't expect there would be a ghostly spirit body traveling around that village that others could pick up... I see it more like remote viewing... I read the data from great distance. Which is not to say you couldn't meet others in non-physical situations, but I don't think such meetings are taking place because two ghosts met, I think it happens because you both had the same resonant intention.

This all makes sense to me because I conceive the world as a sort of platonic simulation. There are no apples or chairs or oak trees- what I think there is, is a sort of metaphysical computer simulation of a reality with apples and chairs in it. But that reality is only interfaced with through sense data. The apple doesn't really exist, your perceptions of the apple are what exist. This is why I am speaking of data. It is like I am interacting with the program of reality, but because I am not doing it through the normal channels (my earthly senses), my brain is the one given the task of constructing representations of that data, which is in itself independent of those representations.
"The Gardener is but a dream of the Garden."

-Unattributed Zen monastic

Volgerle

Quote from: Stillwater on February 10, 2014, 14:15:52.. my brain is the one given the task of constructing representations of that data, which is in itself independent of those representations.
... but isn't your "physical" brain part of this 'physical virtual reality dataset' too, like the table, the apple, Jamaica?

So how can it then be independent? I'd rather think only mind is independent. Mind interprets the data, mind experiences the data. Your brain filters, collects, transduces the data streams perhaps, but is it the being / the 'persona' that is aware of it? The experiencing and aware mind is independent of the brain for me.

Consider the TV set analogy, or the filter analogy. The TVset is part of this reality, the program is not in that sense (metaphorically speaking). It still exists when the TV goes boom.  :wink:

Just my two cents.

Realm Of Gods

#11
I am yet to experience AP but I hope that it isn't a "dream" and you do actually leave the body. If you don't then that means there is no afterlife. If it is just a dream then I don't even wanna do it.

Astralzombie

Quote from: Realm Of Gods on February 10, 2014, 15:39:55
I am yet to experience AP but I hope that it isn't a "dream" and you do actually leave the body. If you don't then that means there is no afterlife. If it is just a dream then I don't even wanna do it.

I don't believe that we are actually leaving our bodies and I firmly believe that death is not the end. I see it more as expanding our awareness.

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

Lionheart

 Realm, what happens if you find out you were never in your body to begin with, like an Avatar of sorts?

Stillwater

Quote from: Volgerle on February 10, 2014, 14:34:54
... but isn't your "physical" brain part of this 'physical virtual reality dataset' too, like the table, the apple, Jamaica?

So how can it then be independent? I'd rather think only mind is independent. Mind interprets the data, mind experiences the data. Your brain filters, collects, transduces the data streams perhaps, but is it the being / the 'persona' that is aware of it? The experiencing and aware mind is independent of the brain for me.

Consider the TV set analogy, or the filter analogy. The TVset is part of this reality, the program is not in that sense (metaphorically speaking). It still exists when the TV goes boom.  :wink:

Just my two cents.

The line you quoted from me was ambiguously written, and it admitted of several meanings now that I read it. The intended meaning among those possibilities was that the data is independent of its representations, not the brain. That phrase applied specifically to the brain would be the "metaphysical data of our brains is independent of the representation of the brain to us". Like all things in the world, I think the brain is both its data and its representation, meaning there is the platonic form of the brain which is pure computed data, then there is what is represented to us in MRI's and such.

I agree the mind itself (not a mind we would understand from this life, but still a mind) is not dependent on the brain for existence. But from what I have seen, everything I have ever experienced seems to be transduced and packaged for the mind by the brain. I guess it is sort of like the rules of the game... perhaps we agree to use the physical brains as our filter for the totality of our time on earth.

I don't think our positions are significantly different, and that the disagreement may largely be in defining terms or in how sentences are interpreted.
"The Gardener is but a dream of the Garden."

-Unattributed Zen monastic

Stillwater

QuoteI am yet to experience AP but I hope that it isn't a "dream" and you do actually leave the body. If you don't then that means there is no afterlife.

There are many assumptions built in here.

Any one metaphysical phenomenon being proven to be false or an illusion doesn't prove a thing about afterlives. Projections, remote viewings, psychic readings, clairvoyance, past-life regressions, channelings, and 20 other things could all for the sake of argument here be false while an afterlife would still be possible. You are forcing projection to be the measuring stick of the universe, which it hardly needs to be. For me it holds up somewhat well to that test, but then it isn't the only strange thing out there, and even if there were no strange things at all, any number of bizarre facts about the universe could never-the-less have been true. Mind has a strange primacy in the universe, which is evident in countless places. Take the P.E.A.R. study done at Princeton for decades, where they concluded that human desires effected the outcomes of otherwise random events. That to me illustrates that the materialism doctrine of the universe is not fully explanitory, and that in order to explain such results, the scientific mainstream needs to reassess the what properties it assigns to minds.
"The Gardener is but a dream of the Garden."

-Unattributed Zen monastic

deepspace

Quote from: Stillwater on February 10, 2014, 14:15:52
Ok... so I have never been to Jamaica. But I have seen Jamaica in film footage. I have experienced Jamaica in a limited sense without having to leave the country (in this analogy, replace "country" with "body" to get the full meaning). The experience of Jamaica for me was fully in my head. What do I mean by this? Well, I have not communed with Jamaica in the fullest sense in actually being present there, but my film footage was data that my brain was able to interpret as images of a place called Jamaica. So too I have come to understand projection. Time and space are not constraints, and more importantly they are definitely not constraints of non-physical reality. You are suggesting that I need to leave my body to actually see Jamaica, because you are thinking of it in terms of physical travel. There is no travel, there is only being there, or not being there. Leaving your body to me is a phrase that doesn't compute, because there is nowhere to go, when there is no such thing as space or distance.

There are what we call "real time zone" experiences, where it seems like we are viewing a facsimile of the objective physical world. I think this is why such experiences are partly accurate, and partly not- because we are trying to have an experience that is similar to our waking lives in the physical world, but that is not what things are at their core. Such experiences are heavily constructed around what our expectations are, so while we may be reading some "objective" outside data to represent the spaces to ourselves, we can't separate that data from what we expect the place to be like.

For example, say I visited a fishing village in Jamaica in my projection. I don't expect there would be a ghostly spirit body traveling around that village that others could pick up... I see it more like remote viewing... I read the data from great distance. Which is not to say you couldn't meet others in non-physical situations, but I don't think such meetings are taking place because two ghosts met, I think it happens because you both had the same resonant intention.

This all makes sense to me because I conceive the world as a sort of platonic simulation. There are no apples or chairs or oak trees- what I think there is, is a sort of metaphysical computer simulation of a reality with apples and chairs in it. But that reality is only interfaced with through sense data. The apple doesn't really exist, your perceptions of the apple are what exist. This is why I am speaking of data. It is like I am interacting with the program of reality, but because I am not doing it through the normal channels (my earthly senses), my brain is the one given the task of constructing representations of that data, which is in itself independent of those representations.

This is fairly close to how see it.

I also think the whole idea of "location" is really an illusion along with everything else that exists in the physical reality of time and space. If we never go anywhere, all places exist in one virtual reality or another so as with everything, it's your experience that truly is the reality. From the experiential level, the non-physical reality can be just as valuable as the physical. So my opinion is that all "realities" are simulated, whatever you want to call them. I would like to call them Consciously Manifested Realities. In order to those create those experiences, you only need two things: The simulator and the instructions (data) to feed into the simulator. IMO, part of what we doing here is gathering data.  So your experience of Jamaica can be just as valuable or maybe more valuable as going there in the physical sense.

Also have concluded that one simulation basically interacting with another is very difficult and not probable. Of course it's possible.

But getting back to the OP, I don't think our consciousness exists inside our bodies in the first place so we are never IBE. What changes is our awareness of it.
It's all a dream
Light passing by on the screen

Volgerle

#17
While I also agree to the whole concept of "Maya" (Hinduism) or the digital/virtual (e.g. T. Campbell) or holographic (e.g. D. Bohm, K. Pribam) theory to describe reality, I would still like to hint to a difference  regarding the PoV or what I call 'Frame of reference'.

This "illusion" thing is all true from a God/Source-PoV. It looks deep at the core and fabric of reality.

I know we had discussions here on this topic before. Still, I believe on our human level (frame of reference) it is not wrong to stick to the ruleset and viewpoint we have and describe things from there. And that is the 'realness' of the experience of this reality and also the reality frames that are crossing it (which we experience by ESP, psi, the paranormal, etc.).

To put it in a few words by resuming the example from above:

From a God-Source-PoV it is right to say that you do not leave for Jamaica or leave your body in an OBE. It's because Jamaica does "not exist" as you think it does, neither does your body in the first place.
From a physical reality ruleset PoV (leaving for) Jamaica exists in your reality experience frame, like an apple, like a table, like your body, like your brain. Therefore leaving your body during OBEs exists, too.


This is why I make posts like my first here in the thread, especially when a newbie asks if it is 'all real'. I do not think this is wrong. I do not think it is wrong to still call a table a table and Jamaica Jamaica. I believe almost 100% of your society does so (maybe wrongly?). :wink:
Neither is the statement that 'you leave your body' as this is often what is represented and remembered as experiential data when you cross the threshold between two reality frames (physical and astral plane if you will). Moreover, there are very stable OBEs too such as during NDEs and by projectors such as Sylvan Muldoon who only had stable "RTZ"-experiences.

Volgerle

Quote from: Realm Of Gods on February 10, 2014, 15:39:55
I am yet to experience AP but I hope that it isn't a "dream" and you do actually leave the body. If you don't then that means there is no afterlife. If it is just a dream then I don't even wanna do it.
What is a dream? And why is a dream not real? How do you know it is not real? Just asking.  :wink:

Stillwater

QuoteFrom a God-Source-PoV it is right to say that you do not leave for Jamaica or leave your body in an OBE. It's because Jamaica does "not exist" as you think it does, neither does your body in the first place.
From a physical reality ruleset PoV (leaving for) Jamaica exists in your reality experience frame, like an apple, like a table, like your body, like your brain. Therefore leaving your body during OBEs exists, too.

Yes, this is a very important distinction and point. I thought of bringing it up too, but I thought it might confuse the already ambiguous language even further. The theory that I am advancing in this topic would say that projections appear to be a fully "God-source-POV" happening, and thus bypass the physical needs or rules about travel; this is in one sense because travel is a purely physical concept, and I am supposing projections to be fully non-physical in sourcing, but transduced by brains and hence also tainted with physical concepts (because that is how our brain is wired to understand the world- in terms of time and space).

Admittedly it is a very particular point, and requires some advanced word-bending to explain precisely on my part. I am not the best communicator at times, haha.

I guess if I had to explain it a different way, as to why I don't picture ghosts out there soul-traveling around the physical world, I might do it this way:

Picture a computer game. There are hundreds or thousands of copies. The Programmers (Source) authored this code, and this code is copied and placed in versions individual players possess. When I am in a certain place in the game world (baker street), and you are in the same place at the same time, do you expect to see me there too at the same time? Probably not, and that is because the visions of the game world we are seeing in our individual living rooms aren't the source itself, they are individual representations. They are pretty close, but they are distinct. Maybe your version has bright colors on your tv at home, and more importantly, your version doesn't have my character in it. That is what I think RTZ experiences are. I don't think we are communing with source (game code) directly, I think we are experiencing our own representations of it.

But then I think this is a bit labored lol. I think we get each other by now  :wink:
"The Gardener is but a dream of the Garden."

-Unattributed Zen monastic

Realm Of Gods

Quote from: Volgerle on February 11, 2014, 06:05:31
What is a dream? And why is a dream not real? How do you know it is not real? Just asking.  :wink:

Well dreams are real because you can see and feel and have emotions in them just like physical reality. We can't define "real".

Xanth

Quote from: Realm Of Gods on February 11, 2014, 15:10:46
Well dreams are real because you can see and feel and have emotions in them just like physical reality. We can't define "real".
Exactly.  And I just had a realization now which has just shifted my perception slightly... it'll take some time to process it though.

In essence... I've always said that "real" is whatever you experience.  So whatever you experience is "real".

What you experience is objective.  Meaning that you definitely did experience an "event/action/whatever".
How you experience it is subjective.  Meaning that the event/action whatever you just experienced was experienced in a manner which best suited your ability to understand it.

This lesson holds true regardless of the reality you're experiencing (non-physical *AND* physical realities [this physical reality included])... and is the entire corner stone for how and what you experience during a projection.  Yes, I'm saying that this physical reality which we all share while 'awake' is just another non-physical/astral reality.

Szaxx

Everything you see or percieve is based on a 3 dimensional construct.
It's our prime state of perception.
In maths many more are used and as they exist mathematically they also may exist in a form we cannot percieve.
There are times when in the oob framework you examine an object and instantly percieve it's inner, outer and workings, if it has any emotional characteristics you feel these too.
This is a prime example of multidimensional existance.
Until you have experienced this words fail a justifiable description.
You really need to experience this from the other side do to speak.
Close your eyes and open your mind has connotations so far ourside our 5 senses it has to be experienced.
There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.

Phaedrus

Quote from: Stillwater on February 10, 2014, 14:15:52
Ok... so I have never been to Jamaica. But I have seen Jamaica in film footage. I have experienced Jamaica in a limited sense without having to leave the country (in this analogy, replace "country" with "body" to get the full meaning). The experience of Jamaica for me was fully in my head. What do I mean by this? Well, I have not communed with Jamaica in the fullest sense in actually being present there, but my film footage was data that my brain was able to interpret as images of a place called Jamaica. So too I have come to understand projection. Time and space are not constraints, and more importantly they are definitely not constraints of non-physical reality. You are suggesting that I need to leave my body to actually see Jamaica, because you are thinking of it in terms of physical travel. There is no travel, there is only being there, or not being there. Leaving your body to me is a phrase that doesn't compute, because there is nowhere to go, when there is no such thing as space or distance.

There are what we call "real time zone" experiences, where it seems like we are viewing a facsimile of the objective physical world. I think this is why such experiences are partly accurate, and partly not- because we are trying to have an experience that is similar to our waking lives in the physical world, but that is not what things are at their core. Such experiences are heavily constructed around what our expectations are, so while we may be reading some "objective" outside data to represent the spaces to ourselves, we can't separate that data from what we expect the place to be like.

For example, say I visited a fishing village in Jamaica in my projection. I don't expect there would be a ghostly spirit body traveling around that village that others could pick up... I see it more like remote viewing... I read the data from great distance. Which is not to say you couldn't meet others in non-physical situations, but I don't think such meetings are taking place because two ghosts met, I think it happens because you both had the same resonant intention.

This all makes sense to me because I conceive the world as a sort of platonic simulation. There are no apples or chairs or oak trees- what I think there is, is a sort of metaphysical computer simulation of a reality with apples and chairs in it. But that reality is only interfaced with through sense data. The apple doesn't really exist, your perceptions of the apple are what exist. This is why I am speaking of data. It is like I am interacting with the program of reality, but because I am not doing it through the normal channels (my earthly senses), my brain is the one given the task of constructing representations of that data, which is in itself independent of those representations.

Thank you, Stillwater.

This is a new perspective for me and it's certainly given me something to think about.

Thank you for sharing.

Xanth

Just a thought, but...

Since we're all "one" consciousness... what one consciousness experiences, all consciousnesses have available... perhaps only on a completely subconscious, unknowable level to the individual.  This explains to me the ability to experience a location which you have never personally ever visited.