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F10, F12 and the Blackness

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keyangen

Hi everyone!

This is not my first post here, but I haven't posted in years. Some four or five years ago I practiced AP/OOBE a lot, had some experiences but then for some reason I stopped. I don't even know why I stopped even though I've known all along that this is something I want to dedicate a significant part of my life to.

In any case, I am back in business. For the last few weeks I have been actively reading the forum, which is a brilliant place as always, and practicing phasing. I even had one short unintentional OOBE one morning, nothing too special though.

Now I have never managed to project consciously, but this is something I am aiming for. All my experiences previously have been so to say opportunistic "RTZ" type ones (with very little control) – I'd become lucid in a dream or I would reach out for my watch and find that I have reached out with my "astral hand" instead of my physical, and then I would use the opportunity to exit. But to lay down, meditate and project – never.

So now I am practicing phasing. I'm taking it slowly, currently I am focusing on simply reaching F10 and becoming familiar with that state. From what I gather, I can reach a reasonably deep F10 and stay in it for quite a while.

However I have a few questions about F10 and F12, both being important milestones in phasing. The first question is about "blackness". Most descriptions of F10 and F12 talk about this blackness. In F10 the blackness is 2D. In F12 the blackness in 3D. 

But what is this blackness everyone is talking about? Does it mean "black" as in "pitch black", that is, the blackness of outer space and of the ocean depths? To be honest, I have never experienced any such blackness during my sessions.

Or does "blackness" mean simply the stuff we see when we close our eyes? In my case, it is far from black. If anything, then it's more like dark red or brown (even when wearing a blindfold) and usually with lots of colours and shadows moving around (the ones I am supposed to notice during the Noticing exercise).

Also, it is said that during the transition from F10 to F12 the blackness should go from 2D to 3D. However, most of the time when I am in F10, I am actually witnessing a visual scene, so how do I know if the blackness has become 3D when I am not really witnessing any blackness, but something visual in my mind's eye? Is this "2D to 3D" thing supposed to occur only when doing the noticing exercise throughout? I get visual scenes almost instantly when meditating and they seem more interesting than doing noticing, so usually I just concentrate on them.

I do however, occassionally, during a meditation session, suddenly experience the scene that I am watching become "full blown 3D". I can feel a very distinct difference between active 2D visualisation I start with and these 3D scenes. They usually come unexpectedly and I often lose them quickly when I realise that they are 3D. Could these be short moments of F12 that I am experiencing?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Xanth

The blackness isn't technically going to be "black".
You'll see shades of varying degrees of black all swirling around with shapes and objects intermixed.

But no, it's not just outright "black"... that's just the general feel of it that most people use to describe it.

It's like even if I close my eyes this very second... it's not black.  Not even close... it's a myriad of mixed colours and shades dancing around.

Bordmb

I've never had a conscious OOBE or AP, but I have spent extensive time in the F10 and F12 states.
For me, the "3D blackness" can be described as an odd feeling, much like when you have an odd feeling that someone else is in the room with you even though they aren't. It's basically to say my awareness expands and my physical all but disappears.

I would say you have a very active visual sense. Try to engage all of your senses within these scenes and you may experience more... vivid results.

Lionheart

#3
 Hello the "blackness" is the same as you would see if you were in a pitch dark room and you closed your eyes. But the blackness could also show itself as a cloudy grey or a pure white mist. I have experienced this in many ways. The thing that you want to watch for, that really shows you which focus level you have hit, is the "depth" of the blackness. When you first close your eyes you can tell the blackness is right behind your eyelids. After awhile that blackness per say starts to change, there is normally a small disconnect first. It's like you are seeing the regular blackness, then your mind wanders off to do something, it could be watching some images that briefly appear than disappear. Then all of a sudden you are "aware" that the entire depth of that blackness has changed. You can mess around with this by imagining a simple object, let's say a spinning top in front of you, then start moving this image backwards into the abyss. You will see that you can move this image pretty far back into the abyss and still retain the image, except that this image would be much smaller, as you are perceiving it moving back from you.
Now you are at the point to launch yourself into a intended scenario and become a part of it instead of just viewing it as a simple image. Sometimes when I hit the 3d image darkness area, I visually launch a basketball into it and watch it fade into the distance. From there I can start shooting the basketball into the abyss and each time I start to get new visuals. Like maybe a net will appear, then I see the pole for the net or the backboard, then I see I am on a court, now I see people around me. Play with it, experiment with it, write down what you tried and how it worked or didn't work. Now you are creating your own path to the Larger Reality. You can only learn so much from the books and videos on the subject. Just like you can only learn so much from what i am saying now.
If you would except a tip though, there is a Binaural Beat program known as "Boxed Nirvana II" this was created by Dave Allen-Williams and is an excellent MP3 program for hitting the 3d Darkness stage. You can use the early parts of the MP3 to do energy work or relaxing exercises, whatever your heart desires. He doesn't get you into the Theta to Delta state until later in the program. You can find the free download here, along with the instructions. http://higher-music.com/free-download-boxed-nirvana-ii/

Stookie_

Quote from: keyangen on July 12, 2012, 20:25:55
I do however, occassionally, during a meditation session, suddenly experience the scene that I am watching become "full blown 3D". I can feel a very distinct difference between active 2D visualisation I start with and these 3D scenes. They usually come unexpectedly and I often lose them quickly when I realise that they are 3D. Could these be short moments of F12 that I am experiencing?

From my experience, this is a very good thing. I can't tell you if it was F12 or not, but full-blown 3D visions are definitely astral related. My development started out just like this... short visions that would be hard to grab on to. It takes practice, as you have to hold a sort of a passive awareness on them. Just a bit of curiosity without analyzing it. Once you get the hang of it you can view them for longer from your current perspective, or phase directly into the scene.

keyangen

Thanks everyone for the input!

Quote from: Xanth on July 12, 2012, 20:54:37
But no, it's not just outright "black"... that's just the general feel of it that most people use to describe it.

It's like even if I close my eyes this very second... it's not black.  Not even close... it's a myriad of mixed colours and shades dancing around.

That's what I suspected, but it had always confused me. Even years back when I had my first experiences, I would try to phase and sit there waiting for utter darkness to come about me but it never happened :)


Quote from: Bordmb on July 12, 2012, 20:57:06
I've never had a conscious OOBE or AP, but I have spent extensive time in the F10 and F12 states.
For me, the "3D blackness" can be described as an odd feeling, much like when you have an odd feeling that someone else is in the room with you even though they aren't. It's basically to say my awareness expands and my physical all but disappears.

I would say you have a very active visual sense. Try to engage all of your senses within these scenes and you may experience more... vivid results.

That's interesting, I haven't experienced such a sense of "presence" yet, but I will be on a lookout for that.

As for my visual sense, it's probably true that I am very visually oriented. For example when I remember something that I read in a book I will often "see" in my mind where and how the info is located on the page or when I think of a word or a number, I immediately see it spelled out in my mind's eye, rather than hear its pronunciation or something.

Quote from: Lionheart on July 12, 2012, 21:01:34
Hello the "blackness" is the same as you would see if you were in a pitch dark room and you closed your eyes. But the blackness could also show itself as a cloudy grey or a pure white mist. I have experienced this in many ways. The thing that you want to watch for, that really shows you which focus level you have hit, is the "depth" of the blackness. When you first close your eyes you can tell the blackness is right behind your eyelids. After awhile that blackness per say starts to change, there is normally a small disconnect first. It's like you are seeing the regular blackness, then your mind wanders off to do something, it could be watching some images that briefly appear than disappear. Then all of a sudden you are "aware" that the entire depth of that blackness has changed. You can mess around with this by imagining a simple object, let's say a spinning top in front of you, then start moving this image backwards into the abyss. You will see that you can move this image pretty far back into the abyss and still retain the image, except that this image would be much smaller, as you are perceiving it moving back from you.
Now you are at the point to launch yourself into a intended scenario and become a part of it instead of just viewing it as a simple image. Sometimes when I hit the 3d image darkness area, I visually launch a basketball into it and watch it fade into the distance. From there I can start shooting the basketball into the abyss and each time I start to get new visuals. Like maybe a net will appear, then I see the pole for the net or the backboard, then I see I am on a court, now I see people around me. Play with it, experiment with it, write down what you tried and how it worked or didn't work. Now you are creating your own path to the Larger Reality. You can only learn so much from the books and videos on the subject. Just like you can only learn so much from what i am saying now.
If you would except a tip though, there is a Binaural Beat program known as "Boxed Nirvana II" this was created by Dave Allen-Williams and is an excellent MP3 program for hitting the 3d Darkness stage. You can use the early parts of the MP3 to do energy work or relaxing exercises, whatever your heart desires. He doesn't get you into the Theta to Delta state until later in the program. You can find the free download here, along with the instructions. http://higher-music.com/free-download-boxed-nirvana-ii/

Those are interesting techniques you describe, Lionheart. I will give them a try if I hit the 3D blackness (if I can remember them in the moment, of course). I might also try the audio track you recommended although it's been a long time since I have used any binaural beats. I was never sure whether they are helpful or more of a distraction. I guess I'll just have to try some again and see. Do you guys find binaural beats generally helpful then?

Quote from: Stookie_ on July 13, 2012, 11:49:51
From my experience, this is a very good thing. I can't tell you if it was F12 or not, but full-blown 3D visions are definitely astral related. My development started out just like this... short visions that would be hard to grab on to. It takes practice, as you have to hold a sort of a passive awareness on them. Just a bit of curiosity without analyzing it. Once you get the hang of it you can view them for longer from your current perspective, or phase directly into the scene.

Yes, I was hoping so. I've been noticing that with every session it is becoming easier and easier to hold onto these visions. When I first started, these 3D scenes would be very simple and spontaneous, like me looking at some object somewhere in my room close-up and sensing its 3-dimensionality (I know it may sound like an RTZ projection, but I don't think they are, they don't feel like it). During the last session I had today, I could already hold onto the "3D-ness" of a larger scene that I had created myself, although it still lasted only a few seconds.

Lionheart

 I personally liked that Boxed Nirvana II MP3, because it was done a more of a program, per say. It has a beginning where you can work on relaxation, a middle for people that wish to work on their Chakras and the end where you can just find your system or technique for shifting or projecting, if you like to do more of an Etheric method. You can also just skip those stages and enjoy the entire trip. The choice is up to you, but you can see he has created it with options, unlike a MP3 of just straight Binaural Beats.

Contenteo

I personally, dislike the term '3-D'. It really adds nothing but confusion to an already confusing subject.

The hallmark between F10 and F12 is 'Vastness'. That is, a feeling of vastness added to the blackness.

Watch out, if you move your physical eyes to look around, you will snap yourself out of it back to F10.

From what I have gathered, it is the point in which you no longer depend on your physical eyes for input.

Cheers,
Contenteo

Szaxx

Hi,
The vastness of it is so real. Once experienced you will KNOW it. Its unmistakable. Keep going until utter calmness and peace feels all around you. Then you're ready for anything you desire by a simple thought. The fear thing must be under control or you may wake up because you've scared yourself.
When it as deep as you can get it (quite hard to stay here) its the open door to any astral experience.
Have a plan placed in your mind first, the intent to do whatever HAS TO BE IN MIND. Otherwise youll end up in a strange environment. If its your first time and this happens learn from it. Dont show fear at all. Thought=action, the rest is fun.
Enjoy.
There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.

keyangen

#9
Quote
In regards to this "vastness" – do you experience this vastness even if you are viewing visual scenes or does it become apparent only if you simply keep "noticing" the blackness? Perhaps I have been putting too much effort into visualisation and should just concentrate on the noticing process?
I'll throw in a reply here. I notice that I will be in a brief visual for a second, then when my awareness goes back to the "darkness", I see that it has changed, that it has become vast, as Contenteo puts it. It's like there is a brief "disconnect" here. Last night I practiced this over and over again, to try to explain it here. I see it more in a sense of the depth changing, but vast is a good word as well. I didn't try to project at all, I just wanted to get to the disconnect. I did it 3 different times and every time was had the same results. It felt like I lost total consciousness for a brief second, but then once I gained my awareness again, the blackness or in my case the white shroud had changed depth. The reason you need to practice a lot is when this occurs, your first reaction is to look with your physical eyes, which will totally kill the effect, as Contenteo says. 


twilighter

#10
For me, rather than seeing total darkness, it's more like seeing through a TV screen, with snow on it. I see white and grayish particles in the air, that sort of pulse with movement. As I move away from my physical body, my vision usually improves.

keyangen

I don't know what happened, but it seems like my previous post was accidentally edited and entirely replaced by Lionheart's post. The text that starts with the words "I'll throw in a reply here" isn't actually mine, I suppose it's Lionheart's text :)

My post more or less as it originally was, went like this:



Quote from: Lionheart on July 13, 2012, 20:47:29
I personally liked that Boxed Nirvana II MP3, because it was done a more of a program, per say. It has a beginning where you can work on relaxation, a middle for people that wish to work on their Chakras and the end where you can just find your system or technique for shifting or projecting, if you like to do more of an Etheric method. You can also just skip those stages and enjoy the entire trip. The choice is up to you, but you can see he has created it with options, unlike a MP3 of just straight Binaural Beats.

That sounds good and I'll probably try it, although I will have to figure out how to position my computer such that my headphones can reach the spot I usually meditate in :)


Quote from: Contenteo on July 13, 2012, 23:51:33
I personally, dislike the term '3-D'. It really adds nothing but confusion to an already confusing subject.

The hallmark between F10 and F12 is 'Vastness'. That is, a feeling of vastness added to the blackness.

Watch out, if you move your physical eyes to look around, you will snap yourself out of it back to F10.

From what I have gathered, it is the point in which you no longer depend on your physical eyes for input.

Cheers,
Contenteo

Hi Contenteo. Yes, I have seen you say that in some other posts of yours, and I also highly appreciate the methods and tips you have shared in the thread "The Steps to Success in your First Projections" – they have helped me a lot.

In regards to this "vastness" – do you experience this vastness even if you are viewing visual scenes or does it become apparent only if you simply keep "noticing" the blackness? Perhaps I have been putting too much effort into the visualisation and should just concentrate on the noticing process?

Quote from: Szaxx on July 14, 2012, 02:41:07
Hi,
The vastness of it is so real. Once experienced you will KNOW it. Its unmistakable. Keep going until utter calmness and peace feels all around you. Then you're ready for anything you desire by a simple thought. The fear thing must be under control or you may wake up because you've scared yourself.
When it as deep as you can get it (quite hard to stay here) its the open door to any astral experience.
Have a plan placed in your mind first, the intent to do whatever HAS TO BE IN MIND. Otherwise youll end up in a strange environment. If its your first time and this happens learn from it. Dont show fear at all. Thought=action, the rest is fun.
Enjoy.

From this I gather that I haven't yet experienced proper F12, unless of course it takes on some considerably different form for me. Well then, practice, practice, practice...

Xanth

Quote from: Contenteo on July 13, 2012, 23:51:33
From what I have gathered, it is the point in which you no longer depend on your physical eyes for input.
In my opinion, this line here is the most important part of understanding what's going on with our "sight" while we're meditating and begin to experience the void/blackness/3dblackness/etc.

The "vastness", as Contenteo describes it, is seemingly his personal description/metaphor for the "black" he sees when his physical eyes are no longer processing visual sensory input. 

It's described differently by many people.

Vastness
Depth
3D Blackness
Void
Point Consciousness

They're all pointing to the same thing.  They're all metaphors describing the same event.  However you wish to describe it will be your metaphor for it.  :)
But in the end, it's all just the point at which your physical eyes stop processing sensory input.  At the same time it occurs, you'll usually feel an "expanding" sensation... in that, you've now lost the awareness that are the confines of your physical body and your consciousness now has "room to move" sort-to-speak.  LoL

Szaxx

There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.

Contenteo

Yeah, what Xanth and Szaxx just said are great.

Thanks! I am glad I could help.
F10 and F12, like the long gradient getting into F10, possess the same characteristic of having a depth you must mentally wade through. There is a light F10 and a deep F10. There is a light F12 and deep F12, and believe me, many phenomenon in between.

Only after weeks of consistent projection attempts, did I start to realize when F12 really starts. And at that time, I thought I was much deeper, like F25, due to the vagueness of the Focus levels, hence my fever busting into ever Focus level conversation that pops up. It's both a subtle and extremely obvious shift. After enough experiences you will be able to have context too. It is very confusing, because usually when you first sense the vastness you want to look around, and then you move your physical eyes and kick yourself out of it. But keep practicing and you'll get a good number of experiences eventually. Even though it goes against the passive thing, focusing on not moving your eyes might be a good exercise once you are in F10.

And once you know how to to F12, you are pretty much ready for a drowsy attempt. Just set the right conditions, lay down and do what you gotta do to get to F12, or better said, don't do. Remember, the key is being passive. Not thinking of the physical. Noticing works, but metaphysical visualization about some fantastical thing works a little better in my book.

Cheers,
Contenteo

keyangen

Lots of great replies here! I've had only a little time to meditate during the last few days, but I managed to squeeze in a couple of sessions.

I have made some progress in that I am now more certain that these brief moments of very 3-dimensional visuals that I get when I'm in deep F10 are actually moments of F12. I think so because they are very much like Lionheart described it: I am in F10, then I have a lapse of awareness and when I regain awareness –it's there, a scene in glorious 3D, probably more 3D than I experience in the physical. And at this point, I suddenly want to look around, and when I move my physical eyes, I lose it. Just as Lionheart and Contenteo described.

What is worth noting though is that I managed to make these observations when I decided to stick to noticing only for the entire session, and not do any active visualisations. Staying focused while noticing is generally more difficult for me, but it may be worth doing that for a while.

Of course, one has to keep in mind that words are just words, merely labels, and that the boundaries between all these states are difficult to define, as well as the nature of these experiences.

Contenteo

Yes!

QuoteOf course, one has to keep in mind that words are just words, merely labels, and that the boundaries between all these states are difficult to define, as well as the nature of these experiences.

You get it!  :-D

That's the secret to this stuff. Getting beyond language.

Soften up and look beyond the rigid placeholders that are a necessity, not of life, but of communication. It must be stripped away to get to the bare basics.

I would echo that note on visualization. I don't find myself in a definable F12 when I use visualization. Maybe, just maybe a couple times, I have in the process, but my mind, as yours should be, is so far off in la la visualization land, it is tough to remember. So, nice note. I could see that being a very important to a newcomer, and is something that hasn't been mentioned here.

Cheers,
Contenteo