Is obe really what you think it is?

[The AlphaOmega]

It's good to be skeptical.  A questionable perspective allows us to decifer fact from fiction.  But it's difficult to do so when not even in the physical plane.  There are of course some experiments you can do to test how real the experience is, and you may have already done some.  I'm sure you've heard of the card experiment in which you lay a card on a table without looking at what it is and then viewing it astraly to determine whether or not the experience really happened.  But then there's the conciousness part of it.  If we are not in our body, then we are purely conciousness.  And conciousness is nothing but the mind (not the brain).  So it can be very difficult to tell what aspects are actual and what are being created.  After all, in the astral plane everything is thought anyways and all things created are done so by sheer will.  It's assumed by some that a clear mind is the only way to remain OOB and that any other thought will bring one back to the body.  In fact there can be many thoughts in the astral and rather then bring us to the body, instead they create what we are thinking about.  And so the question is, what is real and what are we making up?  The answer, on my part, is that I have no idea.  Origionally astral projection was a means to discover the true answers to my many questions.  What I've realized from it is that once projection is attained, it just brings more questions, only now they are on a multidimensional level.  And because everyone's experiences are different and not a single one can be proven, it could be said that either everyone is right, or no one is right.  Perhaps we'll find out once we die!

[Veccolo]

quote:How do you know when you obe that PART of your experience is not being generated in your brain, while not being consciously aware of it?

I think that OBEs/APs are normal dreams with a nice starting sequence. Or in short: A brain thing. It speaks so much for the brain, but somehow most NewAgers don't even try to consider these facts, and at the same time they blame scientists to be close-minded

I mean, they even found a region in the brain which triggers OBEs.

quote:How can you know which part (if any) is real?

You can't, because there is no "real" part. It's your conscious (expactations)  subconscious (hidden fears, desires etc.) mind making these things up. That's just my opinion, of course.

What many people don't consider, is, that they manipulate their subconscious (plus the conscious) with reading all this NewAge cr... stuff. It's no wonder that they will experience something similar! If I play video games for hours before going to bed, I will dream of it. Period.

edit:

Some may consider RTZ-OBEs as a prove for the "realness". But what do they prove? ESP, nothing more. They don't prove the soul, they don't prove an independent-from-brain consciousness, they don't prove an afterlife.

I mean, one has to have a hell of a concentration to perceive the world "as it is" while having such an OBE. And even then it isn't 1:1, because you can't stop your subconscious from making things up. And if your mind starts to wander ... bye bye, real world!

Another thing which imo supports the brain "theory" is, that informations (smells, noises etc.) outside of the body still interfere with your dreams/OBEs. If you sleep and have an OBE/dream, and somebody whispers something into your ear, it will influence the experience.

edit 2:

The main problem is the subconscious, because we can't access it directly. We also can't disable it. This makes a distinction between possible real events and things made up by the subconscious impossible, imo. There just seems to be no way.

Well, at least the experience is real. That's the only thing which is certain, imo.

[kiauma]

This question is great because it strikes to the very heart of the matter.   People can be very divided on this!

I think the answer is simply that it is not so simple.  []  The debate is so fierce precisely because with effort it can be shown that there is truth to it, but it is also very subjective.   In fact, I would have to say that yes it is entirely subjective BUT with effort one can train oneself to peer through one's own subjectivity.   I say this because I think the scientific truth lies somewhere in quantum metaphysics, as explained in the quantum metaphysics topics here on this board.  Experientially, the answer is a little more complex, as I shall explain.

An analogy is to vision.  What precisely is it that we see with our eyes?  Are we really sensing what we think we see?  The answer is NO.  What we actually sense with our eyes is never the object itself, but really is patterns of reflected photons.   This can be readily proved by any of the numerous methods derived to fool the eyes.  

Does this mean that everything we see is an illusion, since it is not real?  In literal terms, vision is a very useful illusion!  "But Kiauma," you say, "I know it is real because I can corroborate it with my other senses,"  and that is a good point.  I could carry my point further, explaining how nerve sensations are just electrical impulses, but my point is not to undermine perception but to draw a paralell with OOBE.  

In OOBE, our sole method of perception is our consciousness, and I believe the same concept applies as with vision, except now we have the added difficulty of 'seeing through our consciousness'.  

When OOB, we are a point of conscious energy.   I think how accurately we can sense through our own prejudices, fears, and other reactive pattern perceptions, is the strength of our own 'Beingness' - the strength of our 'self energy', as opposed to reactive pattern energy.  The more of our mind is polluted with reactive patterns, the more subjective our OOB experience is.   The stronger our 'self' energy - our Beingness - how conscious we are - is, the less subjective we are, and also the more capable we are of detecting other Beingnesses (including RTZ and other conscious reflections (without all the noise of reactive patterns polluting our consciousness)).

This is why fear and negativity is so crippling, and meditation and a positive outlook is so vital to OOB and spiritual work in general.

Of course, that's just my opinion.  []

[Rastus]

How do I "know"?  Easy, I go somewhere and look at something that I can verify later.  Something that I can't possibly know beforehand.  Something that can't be known via ESP.  An easy one is to go down some side street on my way to work and look for a distinguishing flag, decoration or automobile (that I think will still be there in the morning).

[beavis]

Veccolo: Some may consider RTZ-OBEs as a prove for the "realness". But what do they prove? ESP, nothing more. They don't prove the soul, they don't prove an independent-from-brain consciousness, they don't prove an afterlife.

ESP proves that some part of you exists outside your body. How could it see the card in the "card test" if its always contained in your body? Because it can leave your body, it can probably exist without the body.

[Veccolo]

That's one way to see it. Another way can be, that everything in the universe sends out specific "informations" which our body (or brain) picks up with a possible sixth sense (maybe the subconscious?), which is "activated" while having an ESP experience. Because of our dominant 5 senses we use while awake, these informations are "translated" into images, smells, noises etc.

So ESP could be explained as a "calibration" of this sixth sense, which results in the "illusion" of visions, OBEs/APs, etc.

The difference would be, that we don't leave the body to get these informations. They come to us, like the light which is reflected to our eyes which allows us to see.

[kiauma]

Ah yes, the "It's only ESP" explanation - I've heard that before, and while it could cover some of the phenomena, it cannot cover it all.  It does not explain NDE, for example.  How can one sense anything, even remotely, when all brain activity is flat-lined?

I do agree that the mechanism of the experience involves symbolic translation into something our consciousness can recognize.  This is covered in much greater detail and clarity in Astral Dynamics.

[Veccolo]

I'm no expert on these things, but when I look at the Pam Reynolds story (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html), I have some doubts.

If I understood this correctly, they intended to drop the brain activity to near zero. This means the brain wasn't dead. If the brain were dead, she wouldn't live anymore, because brain dead is irreversible. And that means the brain could have perceived some informations.

Also, it isn't clear when she had these perceptions. She might as well have had these shortly before she regained consciousness, where the brain should be function normally again.

Most of what she writes about the operation can be explained in another, more "down-to-earth" way.

[kiauma]

The real problem with the "It's just ESP" theory is that it necessitates a solipsist POV. Mediumship is a great example of this, where people claim to speak for the dead.  Are they actually communicating with discporporate souls, or pulling out abstract personal facts from history through ESP?

If you have ever watched John Edward's show, Crossing Over, I don't see how one could doubt that this is for real.  One would have to really work overtime to prove that every instance was somehow faked or coincidence.  But applying the "It's just ESP" theory here, one would be forced to surmise that either the contacts are faked, or that it is just John Edward divining the communications out of nothingness, pulling the information through some sort of ESP out of the past lives of Beings that no longer exist.   I say solipsist because the "It's just ESP" theory forces one to assume there is NOTHING besides corporate consciousness, so in essence, anyone who thinks they are communicating with the beyond is actually just talking with themselves.  Of course this completely ignores the corroborating facts collected from the 'dead' and past life accounts.

Yes, there are many instances where the cases have been disproven, but still, there are plenty of stories with corroborating facts which leave MOUNTAINOUS questions.   Frankly, the straightforward explanation of this is many, many times more believable.  John's book Crossing Over is VERY compelling.

[Veccolo]

quote:Originally posted by kiauma

The real problem with the "It's just ESP" theory is that it necessitates a solipsist POV. Mediumship is a great example of this, where people claim to speak for the dead.  Are they actually communicating with discporporate souls, or pulling out abstract personal facts from history through ESP?

Well, there could be other explanations as well. Jungs "collective subconscious", for example.

quote:If you have ever watched John Edward's show, Crossing Over, I don't see how one could doubt that this is for real.  One would have to really work overtime to prove that every instance was somehow faked or coincidence.  But applying the "It's just ESP" theory here, one would be forced to surmise that either the contacts are faked, or that it is just John Edward divining the communications out of nothingness, pulling the information through some sort of ESP out of the past lives of Beings that no longer exist.

I've never seen this show. I've stopped to trust things I see on TV (especially those kind of shows) a long time ago. Please consider the fact that shows like these just live from the ratings, and because of that, many stuff is just theatre. But maybe this show is different, I dunno.

quote:I say solipsist because the "It's just ESP" theory forces one to assume there is NOTHING besides corporate consciousness, so in essence, anyone who thinks they are communicating with the beyond is actually just talking with themselves.  Of course this completely ignores the corroborating facts collected from the 'dead' and past life accounts.

Why does this ignore them? In a "collective subconscious" every information remains until the last human being (Let's reduce it to humans for now) dies. At least that's how I understood it. That means, the informations of Jesus' subconscious, for example, are still there.

quote:Yes, there are many instances where the cases have been disproven, but still, there are plenty of stories with corroborating facts which leave MOUNTAINOUS questions.   Frankly, the straightforward explanation of this is many, many times more believable.  John's book Crossing Over is VERY compelling.

I will try to get that book.

[beavis]

Veccolo, there is nothing in the brain that could recieve information like you describe. There are neurons, synapses, axons, chemicals, etc. All of them connect to input and output devices (like eyes) and the only input found that can read that information is the chakras, which are physical in some places and nonphysical in others.

[Veccolo]

How do you know that there is nothing? The brain is far from being researched completely.

[beavis]

Of all the things found in the brain, none of them are nearly that far evolved. They're simple. Its a primitive machine compared to the senses you describe. And I dont think that kind of sense would easily grow out of carbon atoms. ESP in the brain only is like your microwave creating a wormhole. Too complex.

[_scorpion_]

Hmm, I had never heard of OBE's or AP, and only discovered what it was called when I used google.

Long story, I only recently decided to face some weird fear I had when I got these vibrations (i didn't know what they were at the time).  I found that I was looking down at myself sleeping the first time i let these vibrations run their course.  

I believe science can explain everything, and would have laughed at the absurdity of OBE's.  But after this happened four times, all identical, and I could fly/float around my house, I started to get freaked out, hence jumping onto Google.  

For me, it is real - no power of suggestion, given I had never heard of anything like it.  Whether it be real, or a very real seeming figment of my imagination, it is fun flyin around, and if I can learn to do it at will, it beats sittin around watching TV.

Hope you forgive the lack of big words to show how clever I am

[upstream]

If the evidence of OBEs is the existence of something which is located outside the body, then OBE is real. Without interaction there could not be perception.

Moreover, consciousness is nowhere, but could be everywhere, because it could be associated to anything, but we are unable to measure it due to the fact that we doesn't know what it is. Ergo consciousness seems to be a non-local phenomena. In my opinion, we are likely some kind of sensory devices of our nonlocal Higher Selves.

If RTZ-OBE could not prove the possibility that "consciousness" is, at least temporary, able to exists outside of our body, than our waking life either couldn't prove that we're currently inside our body.

[Veccolo]

quote:Originally posted by upstream

If RTZ-OBE could not prove the possibility that "consciousness" is, at least temporary, able to exists outside of our body, than our waking life either couldn't prove that we're currently inside our body.

That's a point. It's just that in my opinion it doesn't makes sense that the consciousness can exist without the brain. I mean, they seem to be connected, and I doubt that the brain is just an interface for non-physical (!) things, that makes no sense, imo.

The consciousness seems to change during life time, which means all the input to our five main senses changes it, little by little. Therefore, the brain plays a major role, imo. Maybe the conscioussness can exist outside of the body - but not without the connection to the brain.

[distant bell]

I have never had an oobe, I have tried some times some time ago, but never succeded. I think this might be due to the fact, that to be honest, I am quite afraid of leaving the body..

Well. Just some brief toughts:

I have studied religion on the university, and some of that in the filed of psychology of religion. We had a book with examples of religios "haluciantions", and there where was a model that showed which life sircumstanses that could trigger an religious halucination. It was pretty interesting. According to the psychologicall theory you need to be in a state of great stress or similar, life crisis, and the mind responds buy creating a vision that sooths the mind and restors the order so to speak.
The interesting thing is that one of the "school examples" of an religios halucination was what on this forum would be named an OOBE.
And many people actaully can produce this on will. That is kind of an controdiction to the psychological theory.

I have thought a bit about the internet. Would it not be possible to have the internet as an analogy for the astral plane. Perhaps there is such a thing as an "astral internet", where you can hock up and download information.. that could explain almoust everything.
Memories of previous lifes, telepathy, oobe..
I have no clu how this would work though. My point is only that there could be a way for the human body to get information about things outside of it, without the usuall senses. Just think about my computer, in a magicall way it is both in my living room here on my desk, and in the same time far away on a virtual webbsite, or looking at a vista in spain through a webb camera..
I can find information about things that I could never get to know with my body only, when sitting here.
This was not meant as a si-fi theory... Only a metafor.

So, how many of you here on the forum have actually managed to get solid evidence that it is possible to gain information about the physicall world while doing oobe.
Then on the other hand, if the OOBE would be on a diffrent plane than the physciall, how could it be possible to do the card tric for example?

[Blackstream]

quote:Originally posted by distant bell

I have thought a bit about the internet. Would it not be possible to have the internet as an analogy for the astral plane. Perhaps there is such a thing as an "astral internet", where you can hock up and download information.. that could explain almoust everything.

 

Ashakic Records (sp?).

[Michael_E]

quote:Originally posted by beavis

Of all the things found in the brain, none of them are nearly that far evolved. They're simple. Its a primitive machine compared to the senses you describe. And I dont think that kind of sense would easily grow out of carbon atoms. ESP in the brain only is like your microwave creating a wormhole. Too complex.

I think in order for us to understand anything we sense it is going to have to be processes biologically, even what we would call our extra senses.

Lets look at auras for example:

immagine what your favorite song would smell like or what your favorite smell would  feel like to the touch. Its difficult if not impossible  to do so because our sense receptors are not specialized to interpert all forms of energy. Although they are capable of sensing all forms of energy the threshold at which it would take for you to smell sound is so high that it  will probably never be experienced by someone unless your on lsd or you have some kind of surgery where you match the sensory pathway to a different sense area of the brain.

The eyes are specialized to sense light, all incoming stimuli(energy) will be represented to us in the form of a visual image. Although the eyes are specialzed to interpret light they can interpret other forms of energy, for example mechanical energy, or touch, can and will be interpreted by the eyes as amorphus blobs of colors. if you were to close your eyes and press into them, this is the way the sense of touch looks like to us.

as far as viewing auras are concerned it could very well be  that ours eyes  are picking up some form of energy we arnt  aware  of  yet or maybe  even could  be  a form of subtle magnetic-field vision. In the same way that we can  feel a  slight  magnetic field if you put your hands close together and feel for it, auras can be a visual interpretation of the same thing.

Magnetism and electrcity are very closely related. if the above were true then we would potentially be able to view a magnetic field in  the dark since light is not required for thier to be a magnetic  field.  but so far people who can view aruas at  will report that they cannot see them in the dark, so in order to see them light could be required to have some kind of action on the field.

the brain is really quite complex, the most complex organ, and thus least understood. In stead of  having  extra senses  I wouldnt be surprrised if ESP turned out to be our regular old 5 senses struggling to interpret different subtle forms of energy.

[beavis]

upstream: consciousness is nowhere, but could be everywhere, because it could be associated to anything, but we are unable to measure it due to the fact that we doesn't know what it is

It exists outside of spacetime and sometimes in it. Outside spacetime, location works differently.

We can measure it sometimes, like in telekinesis, but you are mostly right.

Veccolo: it doesn't makes sense that the consciousness can exist without the brain. I mean, they seem to be connected, and I doubt that the brain is just an interface for non-physical (!) things, that makes no sense, imo.

It has intelligence of its own, but it is also used as an interface. It is a good interface because nonphysical things cant put much force on physical things. They use that small force on a few neurons, which have a very big affect on the whole brain due to how neurons work.

distant bell: Perhaps there is such a thing as an "astral internet", where you can hock up and download information.. that could explain almoust everything.

I suspect, but am not sure, that is true. I could never beat my friend at foosball (the game with the poles with toy men attached to them). But it felt like I received some info on how to play better, after I tried to get it, and I scored twice as high as him. He was amazed. Most of the game the ball stayed on the 1/3 of the table near the goal he was defending. I easily hit the ball intentionally to get a specific speed of spin, so it would go backwards then forward and go through the obstacles at a specific place. The few times it went to the side threatening my goal, it was back in 2 seconds. His movements and the ball, even when moving fast, looked like time had slowed down to half speed sometimes. I dont know how I did it, but I did at the time. I think they call it "in the zone".

So, how many of you here on the forum have actually managed to get solid evidence that it is possible to gain information about the physicall world while doing oobe.

I did it 3 times then stopped my tests. All 3 tests were to read 4-digit numbers that I could not know through physical senses. In all tests, I also saw them the same color as the text (2 black and 1 green).

Then on the other hand, if the OOBE would be on a diffrent plane than the physciall, how could it be possible to do the card tric for example?

OBE can be anywhere, physical or nonphysical.

Michael E: I think in order for us to understand anything we sense it is going to have to be processes biologically, even what we would call our extra senses.

Its sensed nonphysically and communicated to the brain biologicly.

as far as viewing auras are concerned it could very well be that ours eyes are picking up some form of energy we arnt aware of yet or maybe even could be a form of subtle magnetic-field vision.

I've only seen auras once or twice, but I do sense energy from almost anything I look at for a few seconds. I think other people interpret that as a colored aura. When I close my eyes, the energy is still there.

Magnetism and electrcity are very closely related. if the above were true then we would potentially be able to view a magnetic field in the dark since light is not required for thier to be a magnetic field. but so far people who can view aruas at will report that they cannot see them in the dark, so in order to see them light could be required to have some kind of action on the field.

Why was I able to move things that arent affected by magnetism (like paper) with telekinesis?

[Rastus]

100 years ago everyone was familiar with the concept of a camera.  The concept of Infrared pictures was probably postualted, but not done, same for UV.  Roll forward to the Hubble telescope that looks from infrared to x-ray.  Mind numbing pictures (even though some are artificial composites).

Now what if sometime in the future quantum physics suddenly throws in things that explain the Astral?  I find it odd that I was 15 in high school and I read (then outdated) quantum physics books, seaking better understanding of the universe.  I wound up instead with a wiccan text, interesting?

I am the ultimate skeptic.  But I have demonstrated to myself too often real powers.  Self doubt is a dangerous thing, it is insidious in its machinations.  Religious texts are full of self doubt trials.  Self doubt helped me into depression, but knowledge of what I had and could do saved me.  Your only true limitations are self imposed (well, besides most material world laws of physics, gravity is a hard one to beat 24/7/365 [] )

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Rastus
Your only true limitations are self imposed...)

Of all the ideas put forward so far, that one has by far the most impact on us.

A few years ago when I first came onto this forum, I had a handful of psychic and spiritual experiences, and a head full of theories and notions.

I too was a definite skeptic, leaning greatly on my knowledge of the sciences to provide me with bases for comparison and explanation.

In much more recent times I've learned how terribly limited my grasp of metaphysical understanding is, and how leaning on the sciences for that understanding is proving to be more and more flawed all the time.

How does science explain my ability to see auras with my eyes open, and still see those same energies with my eyes closed? How does science explain the fact that I have witnessed during waking hours, two human spirits, one dragon and two faires in my presence? And how does science explain the fact that details presented to me by a couple of the aforementioned spirit beings has also been witnessed by several other people?

It has been told that a woman once asked Thomas Edison, "What is electricity?"  Edison answered, "Madam, electricity IS... use it!"

A couple of months ago I was first introduced to a spirit guide who is for me now a teacher. In that introduction, before I became personally aquainted with her, she gave to me via a medium friend a few very valuable pieces of information that helped set me on my current path, and helped me to start growing both psychically and spiritually at a far greater rate than ever before.

My guide told me very simply, I think too much! Stop using my head and learn to use my heart.

The more we try to analyse, theorise, intellectualise, categorise and any other "ise", metaphysical or psychic abilities, the more we impose limits on ourselves by telling ouselves exactly how we are or are not able to do something, and by setting rules, guidelines or expectations.

So much of what we do is beyond our reasoning, hence true psychic growth comes only when we let go of our rationalisations and seek higher wisdom from beings who can see beyond our physical world, be they spirit guides, or our own higher self.

To quote the author Ted Andrews paraphrasing Edison's quote:
"psychic powers ARE... use them!"

Regards,
James.

[Veccolo]

quote:Originally posted by beavis

Veccolo: it doesn't makes sense that the consciousness can exist without the brain. I mean, they seem to be connected, and I doubt that the brain is just an interface for non-physical (!) things, that makes no sense, imo.

It has intelligence of its own, but it is also used as an interface. It is a good interface because nonphysical things cant put much force on physical things. They use that small force on a few neurons, which have a very big affect on the whole brain due to how neurons work.

How can a nonphysical thing (you say consciousness) interact with a physical thing (brain), if they are inside two different systems? Also, if the nonphysical only can use small force on the physical as you say, how do you explain psychokinesis?

If something triggers an effect in the physical, then the source of this effect is physical.

edit:

Ok, I thought about it a little more. They (physical, nonphysical) must, at least, be inside the same system, or they couldn't affect each other, as they do. Also, there must be specific laws how they access each other. That seems to be a given fact, imo.

edit:

Professional graphics:

(Think about this figures more "three dimensional.")

All three make sense in a way or another. Hm.

But I still think that the consciousness (as we know it) is brain-dependent.

[clandestino]

Hi Veccolo !

I basically agree with your diagram. However IMO it doesn't support your argument that the brain creates all our OBEs, dreams etc.

quote:But I still think that the consciousness (as we know it) is brain-dependent.

check out Carl Jung's research on the collective conciousness for plenty of persuasive "circumstancial" evidence !

The "new age" view of OBEs may not fit in with the current state of science....but look back in history & you'll find science has gone back to the drawing board many times.

[Veccolo]

quote:Originally posted by clandestino

Hi Veccolo !
However IMO it doesn't support your argument that the brain creates all our OBEs, dreams etc.

I know, it wasn't meant to support it. I'm actually never so sure about it myself, at least when it comes to OBEs, ESP and so on. They might, indeed, be outside the body. But I think the brain has a big influence on the experiences.

quote:check out Carl Jung's research on the collective conciousness for plenty of persuasive "circumstancial" evidence !

Wasn't that the collective subconscious? Collective conscious would be a bit ... well, Borg-like (if you know what I mean, without individuality and all).

I agree that there might be a collective subconscious, and it makes sense, but the SC (personal and collective) is extremely different from our normal consciousness. Also, the collective subconscious doesn't necessarily mean that our "normal" consciousness we use all day remains after death.

I think the collective subconscious has countless preprogrammed fragments of myself and with every day, they become more and more. But do these fragments have their own (my) consciousness? Maybe to a small degree, but probably nothing which is comparable to my normal one, imo.

edit:

On the other hand, the consciousness (or better: a "copy" of it) could indeed become a part of the collective subconsciousness and keep it's form.

So the afterlife (for example) actually wouldn't be something "outside" our physical world, it would be "inside" the collective subconsciousness. The collective human subconscioussness, as I understand it, needs at least one human being (which is alive) to exist.

That's something I could agree with. It goes against a few "common" beliefs (infinity, for example), but it'd explain the "afterlife" in another way.

I'll think about this more.