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halfphased

Please feel free to move this thread elsewhere that may be more appropriate.

Frank:
QuoteAs human beings, we have progressively engaged in more effective belief constructs that hold the promise of getting to "the truth". This is why, over the past couple of hundred years, we have been progressively moving away from the old religious constructs, and adopting what we see as more "valid" constructs pertaining to our physical sciences.

This is why I always chuckle when I hear people talking about science and religion "coming together". They never do come together. In a hundred years time there won't be a religious construct to be seen. Like all the other dinosaurs they'll all be dead and gone.


:D  It appears that you are a master of jnana yoga.  I also maintain this view of reality.  And what I mean by reality is the same thing that you mean when you say F1.  Basically that we shape F1 with our conceptual frameworks.   Or in other words there is no such thing as a completely objective reality.  Rather, as you have put it, there is only "objective interpretation of the underlying subjective reality."

Being a philosopher and student of religious studies I have naturally been intrigued by the relationship between science and religion.  In fact, I am currently taking a class "Religion and Science" where we are jumping right into the soup.  I only wish that we could include a discussion on Robert Monroe and FoC's in the class.  So, I'll just have to get that fix here.

I am curious...  You chuckle at the idea of science and religion comming together.  I chuckle too, but what if we were talking about science and spirituality comming together?  I think spirituality is a terribly loaded word, but what I mean by it is pretty much what you do with phasing.  For me spirituality is the tearing down of the veil that we have in place between our awareness of areas of consciousness.

Will it also be in 100 years that there will not be a scientific construct to be seen?  

For me the coming together of science and religion is what you have claimed when you say:
Quote"Within 50 years it will all be done and dusted. In about 20 years the science of Physics will prove that all matter is made of the same base material of consciousness."

Is not that the point when / where / how / why science and spirituality come together?  




I also recently posted the following in regards to the "reality" of chakras:
QuoteI would not say chakras are real in an ultimate sense. They are a construct that we use to better interract with our precieved reality.

We are using a working theory up until the point where we become aware of Ultimate Reality.

I say this yet I still do not understand why working with a chakra system is helpfull at the present moment if ultimately we are to come to understand that chakras were nothing more than the musings of our collective mind.

Do you have any insight as to an answer to my question of the usefulness of a chakra system?



Also, when I speak of Ultimate Reality, I am speaking of awareness of consciousness beyond all conceptual frameworks.  Is F4 the same thing as my definition of Ultimate Reality or is F4 just another conceptual framework?  Is anything the source of F4?



An inquiring mind that wants to know
-Nathan

Frank

Hi:

Thank you for your post.

I don't know a thing about Yoga but I always believed that the traditional mystical teachings did have an informed start. It's just that layer upon layer of mystical crud has been heaped on top of each other over thousands of years, so the original messages have largely been lost.

I can see where you are coming from, especially in your definition or idea of Spirituality. Problem is, so many of these words like spirituality, and chakra, etc. are overloaded with attached belief constructs. Many of which are just plain wrong. Problem is everyone tends to parrot everyone else. So you get a situation where people think that because everyone is saying the same thing then it must be right, lol.

Thing is, there is only one wider reality that is constructed in a particular way. So in theory everyone's basic explanation should be largely the same, provided they have managed to hack their way through all the crud and have reached the base reality, so to speak.

When you speak of Ultimate Reality, it's fairly obvious you mean the same as when I say Wider Reality, for example, or where you say Conceptual Frameworks, I say Belief Constructs.

Science and religion are both belief constructs that we created to provide us with information about our reality. We are steadily ditching the religious stuff and replacing it with science-based constructs. I suppose, as a race, we just got sick of hearing about stuff we couldn't "prove" and so we created constructs that would fulfil those definitions of proof. Such as, double-blind testing, for example. So now that's become the reality yardstick, if you like.

That's why science and religion can never "come together". We created science constructs to replace the previous religious constructs. You could think of religion as being the Physics of the day. In another sense, the Model T Ford will never "come together" with the cars of today. It's time has passed; it's something we've moved away from. We look back and think what a quaint little thing and laugh when we think about having to drive one. In years to come, people will look back and think of our beliefs in the same way.

There will be science constructs in a hundred years, but, as I say, in about 20 years the science of Physics will make the discovery I talk about. This will pave the way to our development of a completely new science. This will be our current science of Physics *plus* the incorporation of subjective frameworks of reality. So in my mind I always think of it as "Physics plus"

First, there will be an acknowledgement of the area that I label Focus 2 of consciousness. This will lead to a completely new study of the role of the imagination and dreams. This will lead science to conclude that the brain is merely a physical interface. That what we call "our mind" is in fact remotely located from the body. Once this fact is accepted then all manner of major discoveries are made.

As these new discoveries are being made, people begin to accept less and less the old explanations such as those presented by mystics and religion. These constructs simply get pushed further into the background of our awareness.

One exciting aspect that you could say is a bit of a turning point, especially where ordinary people are concerned, is a new "machine" is invented that enables people to reliably project into F2oC. It uses particular sound and video patterns and acts like a far more advanced Hemi-Sync or Binaural Beat setup that we have today. Scientists discover there are certain "unlocking keys" in the brain that can be triggered from using certain patterns of light and colour.

These machines start off a new craze. Every kid wants one for Christmas, that kind of thing. Adults pay little attention at first, but soon they catch on and begin to realise the power of being able to create future probabilities in F2oC that can be brought into physical existence. Steadily, the concept of us creating our physical reality is accepted.

Suddenly, people are meeting up within F2oC and having fun, realising the enormous possibilities of the place. Very quickly, it becomes accepted. Then people begin discovering F3oC. Following which it is only a matter of time that the riddle of "life after death" is solved.

As this is happening, all the old mystical and religious constructs get pushed further and further behind us. Some die-hard religious types start a kind of counter-revolution trying to stop people from interfering with what they claim are sacrosanct areas reserved only for god and angels, and that kind of thing. But everyone just dismisses it as tosh.

Thing is, science and spirituality never really come together either. Science just takes off and leaves all the old constructs in its wake, as people get more and more curious about exploring the wider reality for themselves. And that latter point is the key to it all. People realise the truth for themselves. In realising that truth, they also realise how wrong the early constructs were. How far off the mark they were, etc.

I hear all you say regarding your Chakra point, but I shudder at the mere mention of the word! There are just SO many belief constructs attached to it I avoid all talk of Chakras, lol.

Yours,
Frank

knightlight

frank... i must say... you are one enlightened fellow.  Every post I read of yours blows me away!  I can only pray that people will be able to unlock all that lies in their mind.  I have just begun and the liberation of it all is astounding.  I just see one problem.

People who invent that machine you speak of will market it for all the wrong reasons.  We will have thousands of people floating around the astral plane having massive orgies, acting out their fantasies of murders, rapes, you name it.  Crime on earth will dissapear, but the depravity of man will grow.  They will have an outlet to do as they wish, when they wish.  Cults will spring up left and right, every sick fantasy will be allowed without any interference by law or otherwise.  

We have been denied our sickest wants and darkest fantasies for so long that everyone who gets their hands on this machine will have to make a choice.  Use it for a great noble purpose of uniting with your higher self (depending if you believe one exsists) and furthering the growth of the spirit body, or using it for exploring the dark side.  I feel that most people will scoff at using it for good, and sink into a vile pattern of violence, sex, etc  turning f2oc into a modern day babylon.  I pray that this machine doesnt get made frank, i think only certain people where meant for this to happen to them.  I think most people, even now, arent ready for such freedom and experiences.
Feel free to nit pick away, debating is one of my favorite things!
Profound Impatience makes the blind struggle in Stupidity.

Nostic

Science is a dead thing though. Isn't that what we've done to our world already? Or have been doing to our world? Turning everything into a scientific construct? I believe it's unlikely that we will forget about spirituality, because spirituality is about emotion. And without emotion, life is dead. Science will eat through everything in our universe and turn it into a dead equation.
And if it is true that science will leave spirituality in the dust, well then, we're bound to make the same mistakes that we have been for God knows how long now. Science is important, but it's only one side of the coin.
I can imagine a time in our future when we're so scientifically advanced that we're able to traverse the universe in the blink of an eye. And instead of just f'ing up our little old blue/green planet, we're f'ing things up on an intergalactic level. I don't see that as a bright future :).  Spirituality, in its highest form, is about love. And yes, I know it's corny, but love is the only thing that gives anything meaning.

halfphased

Jnana yoga is the yoga of wisdom / knowledge.  If you are familiar with the Indian phrase "netti netti" -- "not this, not this" it is phrase that a jnana yogi would use.  It attempts to cut through all the crud by using the ability to discern what truth is.  
I would highly recommend the book "Jnana-Yoga--The Way of Knowledge; An Analytical Interpretation" by Ramakrishna Puligandla.  I believe it would be right up your alley.  Not that you really need to read it, since you already seem to know everything it has to say.  





QuoteProblem is, so many of these words like spirituality, and chakra, etc. are overloaded with attached belief constructs. Many of which are just plain wrong. Problem is everyone tends to parrot everyone else. So you get a situation where people think that because everyone is saying the same thing then it must be right, lol.

Indeed, the words may be the same, but who knows if the ideas behind the words are the same.



QuoteThere will be science constructs in a hundred years, but, as I say, in about 20 years the science of Physics will make the discovery I talk about. This will pave the way to our development of a completely new science. This will be our current science of Physics *plus* the incorporation of subjective frameworks of reality. So in my mind I always think of it as "Physics plus"

I completely understand why people will have a hard time digesting this.  I find it difficult to even begin to try and expalin why...  I think it stems from emphasising science over spirituality.  I believe a lot of people would say that they have already made this discovery through their spirituality.  So, why does science end up the victor?  I know that may not be what you are saying, but it is a conclusion that I believe people will draw from your words.  

Comming from where I come from it makes more sense to me to say that science and spirituality merge together at that point.  You would rather call it "Physics plus" and yet I still think we mean the same thing.  My idea of spirituality is far removed from what I believe many people mean by it.  There really is not a word for the thing that I think it is.  It is just a word I use as an inadequate placeholder for some abstract idea I have.  

For me, becomming aware of F2 or F3 is a spiritual act.  I only use the word spiritual, because it incorporates the idea that our experience of "reality" as it is in our day to day earthbound life is just a fraction of the story.  I don't mean there is some god or ritual or any other such thing.  Yet, other people do mean those things when they speak of being spiritual, which can make things messy.

It can also be a scientific act, as it was for Robert Monroe...

Whee, this is a good way to make your head spin.  





QuoteAs these new discoveries are being made, people begin to accept less and less the old explanations such as those presented by mystics and religion. These constructs simply get pushed further into the background of our awareness.

But at the same time, people will also begin to accept less and less the old explanations such as those given by scientists!  It's just that the couple of people who are finally able to point out what reality is, in a way that is digestible by the widest number of people, happen to be scientists.  So, we call it a scientific discovery even though philosophers and "mystics" have been saying the same thing although they had to use much bulkier terminology.  Thus science is redeemed, even though there are probably millions of scientists living presently that would scoff at such an idea as you have proposed.

Heh, the funny thing is that I would consider you a mystic.  I say that even though I hate the word and believe it to be terribly misleading.  Yet, what I mean by "mystic" fits  your very well.  

Bring on the type of communication that you say we can have in F4!  Then we can avoid all of this mess of words.



Heh, I really would like to know what you think about chakras.  Perhaps it is a mystery that I am meant to figure out on my own.  It is precisely that there are so many belief constructs attached to them that makes me so curious about them.  What they heck are they really?  If I follow my current way of reasoning I must conclude that they are ultimately nothing more than a belief construct.  But how is it that people use that belief construct to aid theirselves in reaching other focus states?  Hrm, seems like it is an infinitely complex subject to speak of...  

heh, guess I shouldn' get my head all into a knot over it.  


lol, hope I don't cause people too many headaches with all of this...

SylvrFlwr

Spirituality, in my opinion, is the quest for the truth.  It is an attempt to look beyond the surface and uncover what our purpose for being really is.  Where have we come from?  Where are we going?  Am I really just this little person or am I a part of something greater?

Religion is then created in the attempt to discover spirituality.  Some religions uncover basic components of the wider reality, then get all excited and build an entire discipline around that one aspect.  They become ritualistic, they become greedy, their egos get in the way, they forget to keep searching for the other pieces to the puzzle.  Because of this it is difficult to really see where their piece fits into the wider reality and thus it is rendered useless.

Also, when you say "Physics-Plus" I hear "Science-Spirit".  As was stated, this could be a hang up in the language, but based solely on this conversation I cannot interpret it any other way.
Jenna

knightlight

:P  :P  :P  :P  :P  tom.

The major difference here is that now they arent aware of it.  It would turn from a natural sleep process or even when people remember it they just think its a dream and nothing more, into an actual living breathing experience, a seperate reality.  To me, something like this is just asking for trouble.  Maybe its just me?  :?
Profound Impatience makes the blind struggle in Stupidity.

Frank

I can understand why people would conclude that spirituality is the quest for truth. But the fact remains we created our current belief constructs of science as a quest for a better sense of truth than our previous more "spiritual" constructs were providing.

I can also understand how people hold an entirely different definition of certain words like Spirituality. But these isolated definitions unfortunately bear no relation (and hold little influence over) the mainstream constructs that determine the relevant changes, en masse, that are taking place.

It has been suggested that "science" is merely discovering what (as is generally termed "eastern") philosophy has known for years. But people forget that we developed our modern-day sciences to present us with provable repeatable constructs. To me it's kinda like someone making multiple entries in a lottery. They look at the winning numbers, say, 6, 16, 22, 23, 26 and 42. They see their total card and exclaim to their friend, "Hey, I had 6 and 16, oh, and 22 and 23, 26 and 42." But the key thing is, of course, not only do you have to guess 6 winning numbers but you have to guess them all correct, on the one line, on the relevant week.

In other words, it's all very well cherry picking certain aspects from previous belief constructs, saying, hey look, these guys were right on this aspect. But that's like me betting on a hundred spins of a roulette wheel. I won't make money overall. But I'm not going to be wrong every time either. In the same sense it's like the people who continually claim the world is going to end. Yes, it will eventually end one day, and someone will be right. But only in the same way a broken clock tells the right time at least once a day.

Our belief constructs of science were created to provide us with definitive answers. This is why science, in the main, is emphasised over what is typically judged to be spirituality.

People will accept less and less the old explanations given by scientists. Of course they will. For there is nothing knew in that. I remember some body of scientists saying the practical limit for the clock-speed of microprocessors was 250 megahertz! Ha ha ha ha, what a laugh.

Within the body of science as a whole, there is at least the concept of "time moves on", new discoveries are made, and it's out with the old and in with the new. Science has embraced this concept admirably and passed in on to the mainstream. After all, who uses the same mobile phone of 20 years ago? Come to think of it, who uses any technology from 20 years ago? Yet as far as Spiritual and religious understanding is concerned, most people are still in the Dark Ages.

That's the core problem. In the sense that religions have yet to give way to the "new technology". What new technology have we had in religion in 2000 years? Nothing, it's the same old claptrap. But they will move on (or rather move aside) eventually. It's a bit messy in the way it happens but so what. Humankind lives on to create some immense discoveries. That's why I always chuckle when I hear people talking about the end of the world. What nonsense. It's finally the end of people talking about the end of the world, and all other such ridiculousness.

Yours,
Frank

Ben D.

Frank,

Not to veer too far off the thread, but what you said about advances in understanding of the brain and mind in the next 20 years was interesting.  I saw this article on cnn.com an hour or so ago:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/04/07/sony.brain.reut/index.html

It's about a patent that Sony has taken out, where ultrasonic waves would be used to directly stimulate the brain to produce sounds, sights, tastes, etc.  Sony, of course, makes the Playstation game console.  Their idea, it would seem (or one application, at least), would be to make video games that could be played inside one's own brain/mind (I know, I know, they're two different things -- in this case, using the stimulation to the brain to create images in the mind, same as a TV, but skipping the whole optical nerve part.)  If the technology were perfected, and the video game consoles were linked online, then you'd have a F2oC shared experience using the assistance of external hardware.  

I just thought it was interesting how "far out" such an invention would seem to be, but then to see that a major corporation has already started thinking about it from the hardware side.  Time will tell...

Ben D.
Ben D.

TheJza

This is a very interesting thread. I have a few comments...

1. I don't see a definite correlation to what Frank is doing and enlightenment, which is the ultimate aim of any type of yoga (except maybe Hatha, but that is still arguable). The reason why is because I see on the one hand Frank talking about his experiences and he has a nice model of consciousness that he is working on, but it appears to ultimately be dualistic. On the other hand, I have read and met people who have claimed to be enlightened and they talk much differently - usually always describing the experience (and they also debate that it was an "experience" in the normal sense) in non-dualistic terms. All of them (that I have read and the few people I have met) deny the existence of an immortal soul and, instead, try to instill a sence of urgency to the quest. A good example of this is Nisargadatta Maharaj, who has a fairly famous book called "I Am That" and is pretty widely respected. Reading that book and getting an idea of what he is saying, I really don't see a correlation between Frank's F4oC and the utlimate reality that Nisargadatta describes. Granted, I have only read a few descriptions by Frank of F4oC, so that may be why. Ultimately it bouls down to a non-dualistic description where the separate sense of self is extinguished.

2.What I do like about Frank's model is how he says that all incarnations are happening simultaneously and that F4oC is a place where past, present, and future are all happening at once. I am not able to find a quote from Frank about this, but I think he has written it numerous times. That leads me into my next point, which is that people who have had some form of enlightenment experience talk like the only way to experience timelessness (which is, in essense, what I think Frank is describing) is by giving up (or, more correct, having it taken away) the notion of a separate self. If there is someone experiencing something apart from itself, then there is also going to be time, since time is utlimately just a measure of differences and time needs duality (me/not-me) to exist. The same thing goes for space. So what I don't understand is how Frank is able to describe a place of timelessness, while also describing things in dualistic terms. I thought that would be mutually exclusive. But maybe that is what Frank is getting at when he says F4oC is the first step into a truly subjective realm.

3. Having read a lot of Monroe Institute material, I always seem to come across people making predictions about drastic changes taking place in our society... and those predictions never seem to come true. How long have the New Agers been saying a change will take place, yet things appear to be pretty much the same to me? Now, I would love it if, in 20 years, someone invents a device that is able to successfully and reliably take a person into F2oC. I could only imagine the changes that would take place if people were able to simpy and easily verify the existence of life after death. But, practically speaking, I think those time estimates are pretty generous. I would love for something like this to take place, but I am not holding my breath. I respect Frank and all he has done for the people of this message board, and I hope this isn't just another prediction that will never come to pass, but I would be very very surprised if, in 50 years time, religion is rendered obsolete. There has been religion for as long as people have been able to communicate, and I think those institutions will do everything in their power to keep on surviving. Not that I would miss them at all - I would welcome a time when people _knew_ things about death instead of beliving them, I just don't think it will come that fast.

Anyways, this thread is a great one and I thought I would toss my opinion into the mix.

Ben D.

TheJza,

Great post, very intriguing.  I've also read many (at least more than a few) eastern (mainly Buddhist) writings that try to instill a sense of urgency into the quest for enlightenment, and I've tried to reconcile them with descriptions from Frank (and others) of those who are "dead and loving it" so to speak, and who appear to have inhabited a space/realm of seeming immortality, while retaining most of their "mortal" features (i.e., they haven't lost their "conventional" selves [instead of, say, recognizing the illusion of the Self and becoming one with the greater universe], but have more or less simply changed their understandings of the wider reality).   This brings to mind the Buddhist texts that speak of the "realm of the gods" where the inhabitants live seemingly forever (at least compared to humans) but eventually are reborn into another realm (as a hell being, hungry ghost, animal, human, etc.).

The two seemingly opposing views could be reconciled in the following way:  entry into the "dead and loving it zone" could be a ticket to a seemingly limitless existence there.  However, human nature being what it is, "forever" is, well, a loooong time.  It stands to reason that no matter how good being in that realm is, most human beings will tend to get curious/bored/inattentive, and end up being reborn either in the physical world, or another realm.  So, both views can coexist:  there's nothing to fear in death, as you can take up residence in F3oC for as long as you like.  On the other hand, (from the Buddhist point of view) until you stop clinging to your desires, they will lead you from realm to realm without stop, so the time to wake up (become enlightened to this process) is now.

Just a thought.

On the "sweeping changes in consciousness that will sweep the public in the next 20 years" issue, I'm ambivalent.  I also tend to think of such predictions as so much hooey, but then I think at my own progress over the last 20 years, from skeptic, to open minded, to having confirming experiences.  I don't know.  I do know that whatever breakthroughs individuals achieve (and will have in the future) will be communicated to the wider world more rapidly, thanks to technological advancements like the Internet.  My own progress (as halting as it often seems) would not have been nearly as quick if I hadn't had access to such outlets as this forum (for instance).  Also, the article I linked to regarding the Sony patent was telling.  If corporations ever figure out how to manipulate the brain/consciousness in more sophisticated ways, they'll trip over themselves to be the first to market (for better or worse).  This is only a matter of time, I think, but whether 20 years or 120 years, remains to be seen.

Ben D.
Ben D.

Frank

TheJza:

I'm grateful for your opinion which I read with interest. It's a little late in my time zone so a full reply is not possible right now. I just wanted to confirm, quite categorically, that there is no sense of self that is ever extinguished. Not within our system anyway.

Anyone who claims to the contrary is quite simply wrong. I'm guessing as to the cause of their misunderstanding, but it is likely they are misunderstanding the whole F4 setup, and the notion of simultaneous time.

Never is the sense of self extinguished. I want to confirm that absolutely. I cannot, however, prove that objectively (yet) but take it from me it is true.

Yours,
Frank

halfphased

TheJza,

If you have ever read D.T. Suzuki's book "Mysticism: Christian and Buddhist" then maybe you remember his chapter on 'A Little Point' when commenting on a sermon given by the German Theologian Meister Eckhart.

The passage from Eckhart goes like so:
Quote
The union of the soul with God is far more inward than that of the soul and body... Now, I might ask, how stands it with the soul that is lost in God?  Does the soul find herself or not?  To this I will answer as it appears to me, that the soul finds herself in the point where every rational being understands itself with itself.  Although it sinks in the eternity of the divine essence, yet it can never reach the ground.  Therefore God has left a little point wherein the soul turns back upon itself and finds itself, and knows itself to be a creature.

I have not digested this material fully enough, so I will just give you a paragraph of Suzuki's commentary:
Quote
When Eckhart says that 'God has left a little point', ,this is, according to my understanding, to remind us of the fact that we are all finite beings, that is, ' creatures', and therefore that as such we 'can never reach the ground'.  But inasmuch as we are 'sinking in the eternity of the divine essence' we are already on the ground.  This is where we are God himself.  It is only when we see the 'little point' left by God that we return to ourselves and know that we are creatures.  This seeing is splitting and all forms of bifurcation take place and we are no more God, we are no more, as Eckhart says, 'One to one, one from One, one in One and the One in one, eternally.' This is 'where time comes in and all the properties of things which belong to time -- existing beside the timeless'.  We all make time sit beside timelessness.  But why not time in timelessness and timelessness in time?

heh, alright, that is just a tease and there is much to be filled in, which Suzuki does... I just would be sitting here for much too long if I tried to put it all into my own words.  Perhaps, I will let you ask questions and then find the response to those questions...

Also, keep in mind that when Echkart talks of 'God' he is not talking about  it in the sense that most Christians would use.  Sorry, if that is excessively obvious.

We are very lucky to be alive at this day and age where we are free to shake off a lot of the religious baggage in our discussions of such things.  I can only imagine how limmiting and frustrating it made things back in the day.

In regards to the sense of self being extinguished, if it were to be extinguished upon enlightenment then how do the enlightened people ever get back to Earth so to speak?

TheJza

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Ben D:
I have read more Buddhist (mainly Zen) literature than I have yoga, so I think we are on the same page. I could see where you are coming from in reference to the cravings and desires making us want to go from F3oC back to F1. It would be nice for somebody to have had experience with both areas and somehow reconcile these issues. Or maybe we are the pioneers for that...

You just reminded me of something else. I am weary whenever I read someone account of a "retrieval" and they claim to have saved a Buddhist from being in a F2oC state where they were floating in a void. I read one on Bruce Moen's website and I read something like that in the book "Otherwhere" and it just seems a little too convenient for the point the person is trying to make. I get the impression they are somehow thinking "These Buddhist talk about Nirvana and the extinguishing of the sense of self, but _we_ have it figured out! When they die they will just be in an artificially created Void that we have to save them from."

Frank:
Thanks for the partial reply and I look forward to a more in depth one. If the sense of selse is still firmly in place, as you say it is, then what about the process of merging with other minds in F4oC? How does that relate?

halphased:
I am familiar with both DT Suzuki and Meister Eckhart, although I have not read "Mysticism: Christian and Buddhist." A lot of people are quoting Meister Eckhart now, and Eckhart Tolle actually changed his first name in honor of him. In reference to how people extinguish the sense of self and then are able to get back to earth, I have heard explanations that make sense, but I wouldn't feel right just copying what they say. I think Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj have answered those questions, along with the truckloads of other people claiming enlightenment, so a search on google should turn up something.

Willis

Frank's quote:

QuoteI just wanted to confirm, quite categorically, that there is no sense of self that is ever extinguished.

I would have to agree!  Enlightenment, it seems to me, would be the point in time in which an entity experiencing an individual existence (duality) finds itself to be one with creation (non-duality) and at the same time, a part of that creation (duality), therefore, not extinguishing itself but redefining itself as the whole and the part simultaneously!  :D

Something else about Frank's future scenario.  I have been having thoughts along the same lines as Franks, some type of "key" bin aural audio that causes anybody listening to experience some level of projection creating a mass movement into the experience of the "death" realms while still living.

However, the current method of projection calls for a very disciplined practice of mind control.  You plug any joe blow into a "projection machine" and it could have devastating effects on the psyche of the experiencer if he/she is not disciplined,  i.e. unwittingly creating their own hell due to harbored fears.  However, the unequivocal proof of life after death may potentially eliminate most if not all of these fears, including the knowledge that you create your own heaven or hell.  So, why create hell  :twisted: when you can experience heaven  :P !  

About the "end of time"... History is mankind's race through time towards enlightenment as a species (knowingly or unknowingly).  The end of time that mystics talk about, I think, is the end of history, in other words, the enlightenment of mankind.  Our search is over, and the new direction for mankind would be one of assisting divine creation in the material realms from a vehicle that exists in the material realms.

The future scenario painted by Frank are the initial baby steps in bridging the divine "Will of God" with the will of man, a mixing of spiritual or astral dimensions with that of the physical dimensions, creating the opportunity for the above to come to fruition.

-Will
"We are into the opening stages of a human-caused biotic holocaust--a wholesale elimination of species--that could leave the planet impoverished for at least five million years." - National Academy of Sciences

Frank

Hi:

People should please realise that I simply haven't got a mystical or religious bone in my body. So any talk about "god" or "mystics" just goes right over my head. I simply try and find out what is not what I believe is, or what I think should be. I'm simply reporting my findings in the most objective way I can muster (which is pretty objective, let me assure you). I have said all along that I am a scientist, not a mystic.

When I speak of a "machine" that enables people to enter Focus 2 of consciousness, I put the term machine in double quotes as I use that term loosely. In a sense it is actually a piece of software that you insert into your "computer" (as it will be then) and off it runs. You watch the video display and it plays sounds to you also. It has a kind of hypnotic effect (but a particular kind of hypnotic effect) and you go off "into the screen" as it were. Then you emerge within yourself. But please don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about some kind of "enter the matrix" tosh. That was just a movie (and a pretty dumb one, in my opinion).

We are not a part of some whole that we in any way rejoin. We are all of consciousness already. That fact is what people are set to realise over the next 50 years or so. Concepts such as "enlightenment" are just mystical/religious belief constructs that people currently subscribe to.

Once I get my current book finished, which will clear up (I hope) all the beginning questions on Phasing and the 4 areas of consciousness I speak of. My next book will be detailing all the various changes that are set to take place over the coming decades. I can't go into this in a thread. There are just too many base concepts I have to put forward first. Without those it leads to all manner of misunderstandings.

But why wait for the book? Get to grips with the Phasing model and project to F4oC. All the core actions that are set to come about are lodged there. Anyone who doesn't believe me, don't waste time arguing, put your energies into finding out for yourself like I did!

Yours,
Frank

Willis

QuoteI'm simply reporting my findings in the most objective way I can

That's the beauty of your writing Frank.  We all tend to have our own biases and slant on things.  We..., well, I will speak for myself, I am grateful your writings are so objective.

Your strict objectiveness allows us who do have our own slant on things to be able to see it in our own way.

I had a dream once, it was about the realization of a god (or whatever you want to call it) awakening in the human race.  Scientists tended to see it as the discovery of the final theory.  Christians saw it as the Second Coming of Christ.  The Buddhas saw it as Enlightenment.  The Hippies saw it as the Final Peace.  Environmentalists saw it as the ultimate valuation of Life and Earth.  Everybody had their own slant on this thing, and everybody was right!

-Will
"We are into the opening stages of a human-caused biotic holocaust--a wholesale elimination of species--that could leave the planet impoverished for at least five million years." - National Academy of Sciences

paint1

I believe that Frank's machine is partially here. See News & Media, altered states of consciousness!