Question about somethign in the faq section...

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lily moonsong

Quote from: kodemasterHow to enter the Astral from a Lucid dream

What you need to do is, as you find yourself becoming consciously aware that you are dreaming, try and quit the dream. Do this by switching off the emotional energy you are giving out that is fuelling the on-going dream picture.

Otherwise, if you try and project, what will almost certainly happen is you will "dream" about projecting.

Best way, I found, is to stand still and adopt an air of mild curiosity about one "thing". It might be an area of colour, or any old object. I found it doesn't really matter. Anything just so it gathers your thoughts. Then the dream scenery will shift. Once you are sure you are no-longer dreaming, that is the time to start having a wander around and interacting with your surroundings. At which point there is no need to think about projecting, as you are projecting.

I have a quesiton about focusin on what thing with mild curiosity until the dream shifts scenery.  I've had dreams shift scenery at will, but I wasn't out of my body, it was still a lucid dream, because I could tell by the look and feel of it.  It wasn't real time.

To get into a real time out of body experience... I would think the average person would have to do more.  I remember when I seperated from my body, my astral form was just a sphere of conciousness with no arms and legs, and I was completely aware of everything 360 degrees all around me. 

Will I get to that point just by focusing my attention on something in a lucid dream?

Novice

QuoteTo get into a real time out of body experience... I would think the average person would have to do more. 

But this text isn't describing an OBE, its describing astral projection. When you OBE you enter the etheric zone, sometimes called the real time zone. It is a noticably different place than the astral. You don't perceive a body in the astral like you do when OBE, at least I don't.

When I am lucid and decide to phase, I basically completely ignore the dream. Instead I focus on the person or place I want to visit. Essentially I think and 'feel' them and put all of my focus on the person/place. Soon the dream basically drops away and I get the sensation of the landscape whipping past me. Within what I perceive to be less than a minute of this, the landscape slows down and I'm suddenly where I wanted to be or the person I wanted to visit is now nearby. This is always the method I use to reach the astral and, once there, navigate in it.

Hope that helps!
Reality is what you perceive it to be.

lily moonsong

So, if I think about a person... and the dream shifts... and I make myself to where they are... then I am astralling... but I am not out of my body in the etheric zone?  If this is true, then I have astralled many many times.  Lol.

But I have only gotten out of my body once.  It was also from a dream, but I used a different method.

Vvid1012

wow, I wasn't even aware there was a difference.  Im assuming that the person who has an OBE is generally not aware of it while it's happening?  I've had the random occurence of myself getting up to do something where I was..but later flashing back as a dream..very phsyical...I guess that's the difference.  However, isn't it possible to project and then bring yourself to RTZ? 

lily moonsong

Quote from: Vvid1012 on January 19, 2007, 00:23:47
  However, isn't it possible to project and then bring yourself to RTZ? 

yes... it is possible...
however...it takes more than just doing this...

Quote from: kodemasterBest way, I found, is to stand still and adopt an air of mild curiosity about one "thing". It might be an area of colour, or any old object. I found it doesn't really matter. Anything just so it gathers your thoughts. Then the dream scenery will shift. Once you are sure you are no-longer dreaming, that is the time to start having a wander around and interacting with your surroundings. At which point there is no need to think about projecting, as you are projecting.

to accomplish it...

Selski

Quote from: lily moonsong on January 19, 2007, 01:01:47
yes... it is possible...
however...it takes more than just doing this...

to accomplish it...

Lily - read Novice's post again. 

The FAQ is about how to enter the astral, not the RTZ.

The quote in the FAQ is taken from one of our most experienced astral projectors, Frank.  Frank always said himself that he found projecting to the RTZ difficult and pointless.  He'd been astral projecting for years and had never been to the RTZ.  One day he read about the RTZ, tried it, and wondered what the fuss was all about!

I personally would say it's easy to project astrally and then get to the RTZ.  Simply place intent that you want to be standing by your physical body, mentally will yourself to be there, and there you should be.  However, I also believe that the RTZ is the astral, merely a replicated version of your bedroom/room.  So in effect, all you are doing, is shifting the awareness of your mind from one astral focus to another.  Easy peasy, lemon squeezy!  :-D

Sarah

PS  Frank is one of the more respected members of the forum by the way.  Although he's no longer active, his posts are still classed as some of the 'greats'.  You might want to check them out!  :-)
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Novice

#6
Sarah is correct -- at least from what I've experienced thus far.

Its first thing in the morning for me, so I apologize if I'm not clear in what I'm about to describe.

From my experiences, whether you are in the etheric, astral or higher, the place you end up tends to coincide with your level of awareness/consciousness at the time. I don't like the labels astral, etheric, etc but everyone uses them so I default to them as well. When I OBE, I experience a body because my awareness level believes it needs one. I also tend not to be as 'crisp' as I am when I'm in the astral. I'm assuming -- and its just an assumption on my part at present -- that because my awareness is low, the plane/level in which I find myself (the etheric) is also kind of pale in color and the surroundings are very similar to my physical surroundings. Gravity is present, but in mild form, so walking is somewhat like walking on the moon -- you do a bouncy-step thing. Again, I think that I perceive similar surroundings, no real color, and a vague sense of gravity, yet can walk through walls, fly etc, because my awareness is high enough to know I'm not in a physical body at the  moment, but its not aware enough to realize that these things don't really exist for me outside of the physical, so I am somewhat between the astral and physical. Again, I'm not sure this is making sense or not, so bear with me.

When my awareness is higher, I skip the etheric altogether and go straight to the astral. Here I perceive vibrant colors (those in physical reality pale in comparison), I do not perceive any gravity per se, although I can still 'walk normal' there as opposed to the bouncy feeling I get in the etheric. The other key difference is I never perceive a body while I'm there. Even within the astral realm, I will have varying degrees of awareness/consciousness with noticable differences.

I guess you could somewhat liken consciousness/awareness to degrees of temperature. At what point does a temperature go from warm to hot? Or from cool to warm? What's the specific degree these things happen? There is no set answer because the temperatures blend from one to another seemlessly, although there are changes that one perceives with each increase/decrease in degree. Consciousness I think can be like that. The etheric, astral and all other planes are a reflection of the level of awareness we are able to attain. But they are not delineated with a cut and dry line, they tend to blend one in to the other.

This analogy fails in that it is only a 2 dimensional example. Consciousness is far beyond 2D. So while you can go up and down in only one direction at a time, consciousness can go 360 degrees. But its the only thing I can think of at the moment. To put this example back in to phasing, I can be in the astral and perceive dream elements, or overlays as Frank would call them. This is because my awareness is high, but my focus is off.

Duh, that's the other thing that is critical and I forgot to mention. Awareness is a big part of it, but I think focus plays and extremely important roll as well. You can be aware enough to be in the astral, but if your focus (focus being equal to thoughts) is scattered, you begin perceiving dreams and other random events occuring as well. So your friend's comment about lucid dreaming being AP is right in the sense that all of this is simply varying degrees of consciousness and focus.

And as for Sarah's comments regarding Frank, I completely agree. Of all of the people on this forum, I found his posts resonated most with my own experiences. He was more scientific and organized in his descriptions/practices than me, but the experiences he describes are very similar to what I have also experienced. So I would highly recommend reading his posts and seeing if anything resonates with you.

And I also agree with the comment about the etheric/OBE. I was phasing before I knew what it was and before I ever OBE'd. I much prefer the astral. It isn't that one is better or worse than the other, but like Sarah said, I don't see what the big deal is.

Lastly, what I'm writing now are simply my thoughts at present based on what I've experienced thus far. These are always evolving the more I experience, so don't take what I say as 'right or wrong'. I'm merely presenting what I perceive to be a possible explaination/description of the various planes of consciousness. I could just as easily be totally wrong about all of it!  :wink:

EDIT: Definately not awake yet this morning. Sorry for the afterthought, but I forgot to mention that the feelings linked to thoughts on which you focus (or lack thereof) play a big part in your perceptions. And this could be related to what eastern philosophies refer to as vibration, but there are definately different 'places' that resonate with different types of feelings.

At present, I think there is a 3-prongued way through which we perceive/interact in the astral: consciousness/awareness level, thoughts/focus and feelings. I think your ability to stablize the experience and minimize the amount of dream components is directly proportional to your ability to focus exclusively on specific things/people. I think your ability to perceive the experience in as pure and unaltered a way as possible is related to your level of awareness/consciousness at the time. The place/level you end up in is driven by the thoughts/feelings you have at the time. And feelings are also many-layered things. Its not just about 'angry' or 'lust' or 'fear' that define a place or feel. We all feel many things simultaneously and in different degrees. I've met some people while out that just had what I would describe as a very heavy, dirty feel to them. I found that being too close to them actually made me nauseaus. I had to move away from them in order to feel better. So where you go and who you meet are also influenced by the feelings you have as well. Again, sorry for the incomplete post originally and also for the lengthy post this has turned in to. Hopefully something here helps!
Reality is what you perceive it to be.

lily moonsong

okay, my head hurts now.. we were kinda talking in circles... but y'all did add in some extra stuff that does help me.  Like the temperature thing, and the degree of conciousness, and the focus factor.  thanks!

CFTraveler

I have to agree with Selski about the distinction between the Astral and RTZ- same state, different vibration.
Anyway, I'd like to add that some people find phasing easier (as Frank obviously did) and others (like me) find the RTZ OBE easier.  Maybe I'm not that advanced.  I seem to separate and explore 'around here' almost naturally, and can then 'shift phase' "up" to the Astral planes, but I've never been able to 'downshift' back to the RTZ.  I just end up waking up when I try.
In the umpteen years I've been projecting, I've only successfully phased twice.   And the first time it was too short to count, frankly.  I'd like to do it more but it just doesn't seem to happen.  But I did enjoy that one time it happened.  *sigh* I'll just keep trying.
.02   :-D

Vvid1012

hmm.... Well the question is, how does one know they are in RTZ...I hear you can check by looking at yoursefl while projecting...and if you are wearing the same clothes/are the same... then its RTZ and you can move on.

lily moonsong

well, i guess since we have to be at a higher vibration for it to be RTZ, that's why all the books have us practice relaxation techniques and energy body techniques. 

i've discovered that for me... even if i'm in a lucid dream, and i attempt to go astral, if my vibrations aren't high enough, and my body isn't relaxed enough. I'm not gonna be on the level I want to be on. 

Some of my goals are to join my friends in their dreams, go spy on people in my waking world while they're sleeping, influence people's dreams to my advantage, communicate with guides and deceased relatives, etc.  To get on the same level with my guides or relatives, I have to be on a certain wavelegnth or frequency with them.  I can't just be in a lucid dream to talk to them, or it won't work.  That's why books make it such a point for us to practice relaxation and energy work.  The number one reason most people fail at obe attempts is because of lack of practice and time put into relaxation and energy work.

The only times I get really awesome dreams that teach me of the future, or show me things like guides and stuff, is when I was so tired I about passed out.  This was the only way I could get relaxed enough.  So I know.. I need to practice that more, for any of the "dream to astral" techniques to ever work.

CFTraveler

l.m. wrote: 
Quotewell, i guess since we have to be at a higher vibration for it to be RTZ, that's why all the books have us practice relaxation techniques and energy body techniques. 
On the contrary.  The RTZ is the lowest locale in the astral, the closest to the material world.  That's why it's the one that looks the most like Real Time (hence the name Real Time Zone).  The difficult part about the RTZ is that you usually have an OBE to go there, and it usually involves the generation of an energy body- that's why all the preliminaries and that's why energy work is so important.  Phasing directly into the astral doesn't require an energy body, but it usually takes you to a higher 'frequency' locale, or one that least resembles the material world.  In that way it is more dreamlike (sometimes, not always) because it is more removed from the material world.
Both RTZ OBEs and Phasing to the Astral are subject to dreaming mind fluctuations, so a lot of RTZ OBEs end up being perceived as dreamlike.  But even though phasing sounds easier, it has not been in my experience.

Selski

Quote from: CFTraveler on January 20, 2007, 19:25:07
On the contrary.  The RTZ is the lowest locale in the astral, the closest to the material world.  That's why it's the one that looks the most like Real Time (hence the name Real Time Zone).

I'm inclined to agree with CFTraveler here.  I don't like the term "lower", but I'll let it go this time.  I find the RTZ the easiest to get to.  It's automatic almost.  I disagree with CFTraveler about energy work - I don't do energy work. 

Phasing is tantamount to lucid dreaming and is more enlightening and productive, in my experience.  Whilst the majority of members here are wanting to experience an RTZ OBE, they are pretty dull compared with lucid dreaming/ phasing/astral projection.  However, experiencing an RTZ OBE is one of the most amazing things that has ever happened to me and I still thoroughly enjoy them now - the reason I call them "dull" is that mine are often short-lived, don't "go anywhere" or "teach me anything" and I usually spend my brief time enjoying pushing my hands through walls and so on. 

The good thing about RTZ OBEs (again, in my experience) is that if I do go through my bedroom wall (for instance), I tend to find myself in an "astral" environment (i.e. not where I expected to be, such as the kitchen).  Only last night I ended up in a room with four monks getting on with whatever monks do.  I was interested and wanted to stay.  I think my yearning to stay and learn about these monks got in the way of the experience and I was back, even though I tried to hold the image for as long as possible  :x

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

lily moonsong

I thought RTZ was on a high frequency b/c it was harder to get to.  For me atleast, lucid dreams are easier to get to than RTZ.  I enjoyed my RTZ experiences, b/c things looked more realistic, and I could walk around without floating, lol.  I could experience things that were really there, instead of having my imagination altar my perception.  RTZ is also better, b/c that's where I met my spirit guide and one of my totem animals.  I think it's like a station on the radio, something I'm tuning in to.  RTZ is the best station, b/c you can go spy on people! lol.

Novice

QuoteRTZ is also better, b/c that's where I met my spirit guide and one of my totem animals.

I don't think the etheric (also called RTZ) is better or worse than the 'astral'. Its all subjective. I  first met my guides in what I call the astral. But I've also met and conversed with them in the etheric as well.

QuoteI could experience things that were really there, instead of having my imagination altar my perception.

That's great -- it means that you were highly aware. But regardless of whether you are in the etheric or astral plane, you can get dream overlays. Sometimes they are simply mild fluctuations, but often -- at least for me -- if I don't catch them early enough they take over and the experience turns in to an unaware dream. I've had OBEs where I wasn't very lucid and my house appeared similar, but was twice as tall and houses that should have been there were missing and various other oddities. So reality fluctuations can occur regardless of whether you are OBE or AP.
Reality is what you perceive it to be.

clandestino

Quote from: lily moonsong on January 21, 2007, 16:09:06
I thought RTZ was on a high frequency b/c it was harder to get to.  For me atleast, lucid dreams are easier to get to than RTZ.  I enjoyed my RTZ experiences, b/c things looked more realistic, and I could walk around without floating, lol.  I could experience things that were really there, instead of having my imagination altar my perception.  RTZ is also better, b/c that's where I met my spirit guide and one of my totem animals.  I think it's like a station on the radio, something I'm tuning in to.  RTZ is the best station, b/c you can go spy on people! lol.

Hi there Lily, I'd agree with you when you say it is like a station on the radio.... The "real time zone" is a station on the radio, no more or less significant, in my opinion, than the other stations you experience when you are lucid dreaming or projecting.

Ok, consider that the RTZ is just one of many "radio stations" - no more important than others. Not "higher" or "lower".

How well can you tune into that radio station ? Is the reception crystal clear ? or is it a little bit distorted ? or very distorted ? Again, being able to "tune in" doesn't, IMO, make for a more important / significant experience.

Lets take a lucid dream. How lucid do you really become ? can you "tune in" to the point that the experience is as real as everyday life ?

When you are in a lucid dream, try demanding/ stating your intent. " I will see clearly" or "I will have an OBE" or "I will travel outside my body".  Good luck !


I'll Name You The Flame That Cries

Vvid1012

well.. I believe radio stations are based off a range of frequencies  :-D 

I would agree that the RTZ is on a frequencies (assuming that's what it is) that is either similar the phsyical plane... OR a harmonic of it..musically--an octave higher or so..so that it resonates well within our dailyness.

CFTraveler

Quote from: Selski on January 21, 2007, 14:31:39
I'm inclined to agree with CFTraveler here.  I don't like the term "lower", but I'll let it go this time.  I find the RTZ the easiest to get to.  It's automatic almost.  I disagree with CFTraveler about energy work - I don't do energy work. 

Phasing is tantamount to lucid dreaming and is more enlightening and productive, in my experience.  Whilst the majority of members here are wanting to experience an RTZ OBE, they are pretty dull compared with lucid dreaming/ phasing/astral projection.  However, experiencing an RTZ OBE is one of the most amazing things that has ever happened to me and I still thoroughly enjoy them now - the reason I call them "dull" is that mine are often short-lived, don't "go anywhere" or "teach me anything" and I usually spend my brief time enjoying pushing my hands through walls and so on. 

The good thing about RTZ OBEs (again, in my experience) is that if I do go through my bedroom wall (for instance), I tend to find myself in an "astral" environment (i.e. not where I expected to be, such as the kitchen).  Only last night I ended up in a room with four monks getting on with whatever monks do.  I was interested and wanted to stay.  I think my yearning to stay and learn about these monks got in the way of the experience and I was back, even though I tried to hold the image for as long as possible  :x

Sarah
Sorry about the "lower"- force of habit.  I don't even agree that it's 'lower' -it's just easier to think of it that way because of we tend to think that the material world is 'low'.
As to the value of energy work I just point out what works for me- for me it makes a difference.

Kodemaster

Hello everyone:

I hesitated to answer this post because I really wanted to think out my reply and read the other replies thoroughly.

Frank refers to entering the astral through a dream in the post I quoted in the FAQ. This technique has proven rather "hit-or-miss" for me, but seems to be easier than any other technique. It's not an "exact science." I can end up in the RTZ, a lucid dream or the "astral proper" as Frank referred to the astral zone outside of the RTZ.

In most cases, I end up in the RTZ, and have to focus on my vibrations and "rev up" them in order to end up in the "astral proper."

I think the major distinction between the different, or "higher/lower" levels or zones in regards to how to enter them, is how much energy you need. The more etheric energy you have, the "higher" (or denser, as I like to say) the levels you can reach. If you're already in the "astral proper" you can rev up your energy to enter the Akashic records. In fact, I did that a month or two ago and posted the experience here.

Hope this all makes sense to you. When dealing with abstract concepts it is sometimes hard to express yourself. The nice part about them is, that many people can offer different insights into the same concept, and still come up with a parallel conclusion.

Jen
JenX
Choose empathy. It costs nothing.
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lily moonsong

I didn't realize this would become such a popular thread.  Thanks for all your responses, it gives me a lot to think about and work with in my practices.