"The Lucid Dream Pill"

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Aaron330

Have had about a year and a half hiatus from projecting/LDing which has been very hard for me. I've still been trying hard at my techniques as always, but literally haven't had a single experience in over a year and a half now. I've pretty much given up hope.

Then I was listening to the Joe Rogan Podcast the other day and they were talking about how they trigger Lucid Dreams by taking acetylcholine, which is a chemical the brain produces during sleep. Apparently it triggers very durable lucid dreams. One guy on the podcast even mentioned that going to sleep with a nicotine patch on which triggers LD's for him.

I did some research online and found a pill called "Galantamine" which has been called the "Lucid Dream Pill". You're supposed to take it in the middle of the night after some REM sleep, and it produces higher doses of Acetylcholine in your brain which triggers very long, durable lucid dreams. I ordered some and am going to give it a try.

Has anyone here had any experience with Galantamine, Acetylcholine or Nicotine patches to trigger lucid dreams?
It's hard to say that I'd rather stay awake when I'm asleep; because my dreams are bursting at the seams.

Volgerle

I used Galantamine which works by preventing the breakdown of acetylcholine in the brain. It is recommended to take it together with choline or Vitamin B supplements. I did both.

Yes, it works. It has effects. Projections were different for me though, mostly I had problems with control then. It wasn't too good for me. Some interesting energetic and mind split experiences also resulted. For example I had more SP experiences, I felt my body more often while "out". Also sometimes felt a 'crack' in my head/brain during the initial phase. But it is not to worry about.

If you do not manage to lucid dream/project, you might still get interesting intense dreams.

There is a phase in the morning when you feel really good in your neuron system. It's also a bit like a 'drug' for me. But it lasts only short while.

I still do not recommend it and do not take it today, unless on very rare occasions because I still have some rest left before the shelf date so to speak.

One should learn it the 'real' way. You consciousness is enough. Keep up the training and it will return. I myself do not have a lot of experiences too like you. But it is because I am too focused with this physical life at the moment.

Szaxx

Quote from: Aaron330 on July 09, 2016, 18:52:28
Have had about a year and a half hiatus from projecting/LDing which has been very hard for me. I've still been trying hard at my techniques as always, but literally haven't had a single experience in over a year and a half now. I've pretty much given up hope.

Then I was listening to the Joe Rogan Podcast the other day and they were talking about how they trigger Lucid Dreams by taking acetylcholine, which is a chemical the brain produces during sleep. Apparently it triggers very durable lucid dreams. One guy on the podcast even mentioned that going to sleep with a nicotine patch on which triggers LD's for him.

I did some research online and found a pill called "Galantamine" which has been called the "Lucid Dream Pill". You're supposed to take it in the middle of the night after some REM sleep, and it produces higher doses of Acetylcholine in your brain which triggers very long, durable lucid dreams. I ordered some and am going to give it a try.

Has anyone here had any experience with Galantamine, Acetylcholine or Nicotine patches to trigger lucid dreams?

I never use anything and don't intend to. If your method isn't producing results then it's time to change it. Try reading a book until you fall asleep. The book drops away and you let it do so keeping the awareness of yourself awake as you drift off into the blackness. This has produced some interesting results unintentionally.
It may help break the dead spot.
There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.

Aaron330

Thanks for the advice guys. That's some good perspective. I'm gonna try these pills for a while and see if it doesn't help or spark some LD's later down the road when I stop using them. I also just honestly miss projecting and LDing so much, I just want to experience it again. If I had to go under an IV to experience it again at this point I would. I'll also try combining some B vitamins and acetylcholine as well to see how that affects things. Will also report back here with the results.
It's hard to say that I'd rather stay awake when I'm asleep; because my dreams are bursting at the seams.

Aaron330

Update: It worked! I had my first lucid dream in over a year the first night I took Galantamine! I heard the loud "ringing noise" in my ear in the middle of the night, focused on it until it became jet engine loud, and then poof! I rolled out of my body and was in the dream world! I flew around with crazed excitement, shot energy blasts out of my hands like dragon ball z, and climbed up buildings. I sort of slipped back into a dream for a while on accident, and then remembered I was dreaming again. After that, the experienced ended. I'm going to take them again tonight (you're only supposed to take them 3 nights a week). Will update tomorrow if I have another LD.
It's hard to say that I'd rather stay awake when I'm asleep; because my dreams are bursting at the seams.

Xanth

Quote from: Aaron330 on July 19, 2016, 04:59:40
Update: It worked! I had my first lucid dream in over a year the first night I took Galantamine! I heard the loud "ringing noise" in my ear in the middle of the night, focused on it until it became jet engine loud, and then poof! I rolled out of my body and was in the dream world! I flew around with crazed excitement, shot energy blasts out of my hands like dragon ball z, and climbed up buildings. I sort of slipped back into a dream for a while on accident, and then remembered I was dreaming again. After that, the experienced ended. I'm going to take them again tonight (you're only supposed to take them 3 nights a week). Will update tomorrow if I have another LD.
Now the problem becomes... did you have the projection because of the pills or because you wanted it badly?  Guess we'll never know.

And therein lies the problem with popping pills.

Astralsuzy

I agree with Xanth.    There are pills that are not proven to work.    There are pills that say they can work but do not say they do work.    It is not scientifically proven.   Sounds like a waste of money to me.   Sorry you may get offended by that. 

RobertForsythe

Quote from: Aaron330 on July 19, 2016, 04:59:40
Update: It worked! I had my first lucid dream in over a year the first night I took Galantamine! I heard the loud "ringing noise" in my ear in the middle of the night, focused on it until it became jet engine loud, and then poof! I rolled out of my body and was in the dream world! I flew around with crazed excitement, shot energy blasts out of my hands like dragon ball z, and climbed up buildings. I sort of slipped back into a dream for a while on accident, and then remembered I was dreaming again. After that, the experienced ended. I'm going to take them again tonight (you're only supposed to take them 3 nights a week). Will update tomorrow if I have another LD.

Congratulations! Were you wide awake when you started hearing the "ringing noise"? If so, subsequently focusing on the sound and then "rolling out" from the waking state would constitute a full blown OBE/AP projection of consciousness from the waking state... which I prefer to differentiate from the Lucid Dream methods. Quickly devolving into and LD is common but still does not change my personal method of dichotomy for these sorts of experiences.

I do not really have a problem with using herbs or pills to nudge someone over the hump. Especially if they are suffering a really long dry spell. A year and a half?...yikes!.... If the pill works on the first try after that long I think it is pretty safe to say it was the pill or at least a placebo effect. Either way... probably worth it. As long as you get back in the groove and stop using the pills shortly thereafter, what's the harm?

I am curious to try Dreamleaf (Ingredients: 5-HTP, Mugwort, Huperzine-A, Alpha GPC, Choline Bitartrate ) but with all that going on I wonder about unknown side effects.

Aaron330

Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 20, 2016, 00:23:04
Congratulations! Were you wide awake when you started hearing the "ringing noise"? If so, subsequently focusing on the sound and then "rolling out" from the waking state would constitute a full blown OBE/AP projection of consciousness from the waking state... which I prefer to differentiate from the Lucid Dream methods. Quickly devolving into and LD is common but still does not change my personal method of dichotomy for these sorts of experiences.

I do not really have a problem with using herbs or pills to nudge someone over the hump. Especially if they are suffering a really long dry spell. A year and a half?...yikes!.... If the pill works on the first try after that long I think it is pretty safe to say it was the pill or at least a placebo effect. Either way... probably worth it. As long as you get back in the groove and stop using the pills shortly thereafter, what's the harm?

I am curious to try Dreamleaf (Ingredients: 5-HTP, Mugwort, Huperzine-A, Alpha GPC, Choline Bitartrate ) but with all that going on I wonder about unknown side effects.

Thanks for the input and encouragement! It definitely was because of the pills, not due to "wanting it more" or some kind of placebo effect. I've actively been practicing and trying every week for a year and a half now with no luck. I would have given my right arm to project/LD again, so I'm very thankful for these pills to say the least.

As far as the projection goes, I'm not totally sure to be honest. I'm never sure if I'm "projecting" or "Lucid Dreaming" because it happens the same way every time. it's the only method that's ever worked for me. I sort of "wake up" in the midst of light sleep to the "high pitched ringing noise" and I focus on it, it gets insanely loud, and then POOF. The noise stops and I do the "roll out method" and thenI'm in the midst of some foggy dream world. Is that astral projection? Or Lucid Dreaming? I don't know to be honest.
It's hard to say that I'd rather stay awake when I'm asleep; because my dreams are bursting at the seams.

Astralsuzy

I think I was a bit hard saying it was a waste of money.    I would like to say it is great you had a lucid dream.   I am happy for you.    There is no harm in taking tablets if if it not harmful to your health.   In time you will know if it works or not.   

Volgerle

Quote from: Astralsuzy on July 19, 2016, 21:34:33
I agree with Xanth.    There are pills that are not proven to work.    There are pills that say they can work but do not say they do work.    It is not scientifically proven.   Sounds like a waste of money to me.   Sorry you may get offended by that. 
Many people around the world use them. I use(d) them, but not anymore. From my (past) experience with them and others I can say with quite some certainty that they work beyond placebo. If you did a scientific lab trial and chose two groups, then put the same number of aspiring APers to go to sleep in each group, one with a fake placebo pill, one with galantamine. You would definitely and most certainly get a far higher success rate with the verum group (the one taking galantamine). I'd bet a whole lot of money on it.  :-)

ThaomasOfGrey

Quote from: Xanth on July 19, 2016, 11:58:11
Now the problem becomes... did you have the projection because of the pills or because you wanted it badly?  Guess we'll never know.

And therein lies the problem with popping pills.

If we measured all of the things we do that have a positive effect on our ability to project and catalogued them as dependencies where would it end? Some hypotheticals such as: I depend on my vegetarian diet to have the energy to project; I depend on natural extracts like 5-HTP to help chemical balance when sleeping; I use the wake and back to bed method to prime my mind because projecting normally is too difficult; reduce to absurdum.

I don't like the idea of having dependencies, but having experiences vs not having them seems like a step forward to me.

Lumaza

Quote from: Xanth on July 19, 2016, 11:58:11
Now the problem becomes... did you have the projection because of the pills or because you wanted it badly?  Guess we'll never know.

And therein lies the problem with popping pills.
There is no problem.  :-P

If it's not broken, don't fix it. In other words if it's working for you Aaron, keep it up. As long as they are safe to use, there is no harm here.

They just help you to experience this new realm consciously aware. You still have to navigate the surroundings once there. Just to become aware in these new areas will train you what to do when you become aware in the future "without" the use of the pill, which is known as a "tool".

Tools are very helpful. You could basically call them "training wheels" and just like what occurs while learning to ride a bicycle, you will outgrow their need as well.  :-)
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."  Nicolai Tesla

Astralsuzy

To be honest I think I would be tempted to take it myself.   It probably would work but I do not think I like the sound of what I read about it.   I read on line that it is treated for dementia and can have side effects.    It sounds like you need a doctors prescription to get it.   You can get it on line so you can get away without seeing a doctor.   

Xanth

Quote from: Lumaza on July 20, 2016, 20:17:56
There is no problem.  :-P
But there is a problem...
Too many people come here asking questions about pills wanting them to become their only doorway to projecting.

THAT is a huge problem. 

Quotewhich is known as a "tool".
I agree, kind of.  It's not a tool I would *EVER* suggest to anyone.
Especially if your goal is to do this yourself.  There's no replacement for hard work and dedication... not popping a pill and having it do it for you.
You don't learn anything doing that... and more importantly, you miss out on the most important part of all this: the journey.

You find out so much about yourself through the journey... skipping it, even for a brief glimpse, is like robbing yourself.
Sadly, that is something people don't learn until after they've already ruined it.

RobertForsythe

Quote from: Aaron330 on July 20, 2016, 03:39:49
[...] I sort of "wake up" in the midst of light sleep to the "high pitched ringing noise" and I focus on it, it gets insanely loud, and then POOF. The noise stops and I do the "roll out method" and then I'm in the midst of some foggy dream world. Is that astral projection? Or Lucid Dreaming? I don't know to be honest.

I doubt anyone really knows or if they do can't say so clearly because the vocabulary on this subject is something many play fast and loose with.

wake up ==> focus on Hypnogogic noise ==> Rollout = Genuine full conscious projection of consciousness, imho.

The only problem here is the "wake up" stage is a little ambiguous. It would be rock solid if you got up and went to the bathroom and splashed water on your face and then laid down again. But this description that you give here is really close enough that I would give you the benefit of the doubt (with mild caution/reservation).

Projecting directly into a misty/foggy realm may not be the True Astral Realm but more like the Real Time Zone as coined by Robert Bruce (I believe). Devolving rapidly or even immediately into an LD is very common and I would guestimate that about 95% of the so called astral projections I read about on these forums never got close to the true Astral Plane.

Lumaza

Quote from: Xanth on July 20, 2016, 20:54:13
But there is a problem...
Too many people come here asking questions about pills wanting them to become their only doorway to projecting.

THAT is a huge problem. 
I agree, kind of.  It's not a tool I would *EVER* suggest to anyone.
Especially if your goal is to do this yourself.  There's no replacement for hard work and dedication... not popping a pill and having it do it for you.
You don't learn anything doing that... and more importantly, you miss out on the most important part of all this: the journey.

You find out so much about yourself through the journey... skipping it, even for a brief glimpse, is like robbing yourself.
Sadly, that is something people don't learn until after they've already ruined it.
I agree. But I also see this as being "a sign of the times". Hard work and dedication is sorely missing in this "NOW" generation!   :-(

I travel quite a bit in my occupation and I see the general populace often and I can tell you that my statement above is dead on, people are being taught everyday that everything can and should be at their fingertips. So now they expect it as well. We are very minute part of general populace. On this Forum conversations of this nature are normal but outside in the general populace as a whole they are very miniscule.

I have never had any problem with hard work and dedication to achieve a goal. I have stated often here that it takes practice, patience and perseverance to be successful in this field. But I see that things aren't going to change soon. If anything it will get worse, before it gets better.

I stated that if this "pill" was safe to use, that it was okay. That safety would have to be confirmed by a Physician or Pharmacist. I have never used a pill. But I do use a Light/Sound machine occasionally and my Binaural Beats and Isochronic tones often. They are also known as "training wheels". But in no way do they lesson my experiences. They do speed the "prep work" up quite a bit though.  :-)
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."  Nicolai Tesla

Astralsuzy

I think that is great  Lumaza that you use Binaural Beats and Isochronic tones.   There is nothing wrong with that.   I have listened to relaxing music.   Listening to relaxing music helps you to relax.    To be able to relax is one main ingredient towards ap.   
I doubt that doctors would agree to give acetylcholine out to people that is meant to treat dementia or Alzheimers. 

Xanth

#18
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 20, 2016, 21:19:33
I doubt anyone really knows or if they do can't say so clearly because the vocabulary on this subject is something many play fast and loose with.
You don't have to "doubt" that nobody "really knows", because NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.  There's not a single person who exists today who "REALLY KNOWS" anything about consciousness and reality.
All each of us can do is speak from our personal experiences... that doesn't mean anyone is playing "fast and loose" with definitions.
"Language" (English or otherwise) is extremely inept at describing things which fall outside the limits of this physical reality (ie: spirituality, astral projection).

QuoteProjecting directly into a misty/foggy realm may not be the True Astral Realm but more like the Real Time Zone as coined by Robert Bruce (I believe). Devolving rapidly or even immediately into an LD is very common and I would guestimate that about 95% of the so called astral projections I read about on these forums never got close to the true Astral Plane.
Also, you seem to have a very "defined" belief on how you view consciousness and reality (ie: you follow the classical model of a hierarchical reality)... please understand that not everyone sees things the way you do.  
We try to be a very inclusive forum where people of many different opinions come together to share their experiences without having to have them belittled by others.

Experience is unique to the experiencer.
We all use different labels and definitions... it's better to try to understand the labels and definitions someone else is using before simply calling theirs wrong (thereby deeming your own "correct").

Please keep that in mind when posting here.  :)  
If you have any questions about this, please PM me.  

Quote from: Lumaza on July 20, 2016, 21:32:38
I agree. But I also see this as being "a sign of the times". Hard work and dedication is sorely missing in this "NOW" generation!   :-(
OMG yes.  >_<  LOL

So many people growing up today simple want everything now and aren't willing to do what's needed to get there.  I guess they feel they "do enough" with education or something?  LoL


RobertForsythe

Quote from: Xanth on July 21, 2016, 11:54:08
You don't have to "doubt" that nobody "really knows", because NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.  There's not a single person who exists today who "REALLY KNOWS" anything about consciousness and reality.

I truly hope that's not true... (in fact I'm pretty sure its not).
You did just tell me recently to "Feel free to disagree with my "opinion" all you want"...?... right? I hope that's really okay, then.


QuoteAll each of us can do is speak from our personal experiences... that doesn't mean anyone is playing "fast and loose" with definitions.
"Language" (English or otherwise) is extremely inept at describing things which fall outside the limits of this physical reality (ie: spirituality, astral projection).

Of course, but 'experiences' and 'definitions' are two completely different things. Language is quite useful and plenty sufficient to describe things outside this physical reality. Language is a highly mental construct which means it is well suited to communicate not just the physical but the emotional astral realm as well as the mental/causal realities. As long as people adhere to a little semantic discipline and don't start saying things like "well ... pink is the new blue, in my experience...." -- if you know what I mean. Language does however, begin to fail miserably once we cross into the realms beyond duality but since 99% of humanity can hardly conceive of these realms and do not even know they exist there isn't much need to talk about them.

QuoteAlso, you seem to have a very "defined" belief on how you view consciousness and reality (ie: you follow the classical model of a hierarchical reality)... please understand that not everyone sees things the way you do.  
We try to be a very inclusive forum where people of many different opinions come together to share their experiences without having to have them belittled by others.

A "model of a hierarchical reality" is not a belief but a construct that facilitates common ground for discussion. It is not a "defined Belief" but a 'model' that facilitates communication and the pursuit of Truth. Without that we see things devolve into a bunch of random sentences coming from all directions and flying every which way. It reminds me of that commercial where dozens of people are running willy nilly around the tennis court smacking the ball any which way... hilarious... in the end no one really gets anywhere.

Note also that I HAVE NEVER BELITTLED ANOTHER PERSON'S EXPERIENCE.

QuoteExperience is unique to the experiencer.

Yes, this is true (see?! ... we can agree on some things  :-) .)

QuoteWe all use different labels and definitions... it's better to try to understand the labels and definitions someone else is using before simply calling theirs wrong (thereby deeming your own "correct").

You may be oversimplifying here. I understand that you may say tomato and I say tomahto. I understand that some say 'truck' and others say 'lorry' and both words mean the same thing.  I understand that some say 'elevator' and others say 'lift' and both words mean the same thing. But when someone wants to say that 'truck' and 'elevator' are the same thing I might feel inclined to disagree. If someone says my elevator is better than that guy's truck for cooking breakfast I might feel inclined to ask, "What?".

I think I know the recent exchange here that you might be speaking from on this (the one of religion vs spirituality).

Among new agey types there is not just an acceptance of anti-Christian bias and even hate speech, but an almost sort of a camaraderie and encouragement they give each other. On basically all AP & LD and other metaphysical type forums Anti Catholic bigots and covert Christian haters seem to get a pass for some reason. There really is a double standard in this sense. Anyone who dares to speak up in defense of the more religious sorts is quickly reprimanded and often banned, usually on blatantly false trumped up charges.

I am very sensitive to this sort of bigotry. I hope you can please keep that in mind when I am posting here. I know it makes some people uncomfortable to see anti Christian bigotry and hate speech challenged but I think that is a good thing... no pain no gain.   :)  


Aaron330

#20
Wow, a whole lot of responses to catch up on. Firstly, thank you to everyone who responded to me here and gave me advice/input. This is why I love this forum board. Secondly, I think a few of you guys are getting a little too carried away with this "pills are for lazy millennials" business lol.

I am a Fitness Model, an athlete and a full time personal trainer for Stanford University and Google Headquarters in Mountain View, CA. I know a thing or two about hard work. I work out for 1-2 hours a day in addition to working 40-50 hours a week. I'm not afraid of hard work at all. In fact, I LOVE it. It builds character, commitment, confidence and integrity. That's one of the things that has interested me the most about AP, the fact that it is a life long journey and a skill you can never truly "master", but must remain an eternal student of.

I have been practicing AP for almost 3 years now. I meditate every day. I learned how to AP and LD on my own years ago long before I ever tried this pill. So let me say for any potential newbee's reading this...the pill WILL NOT work for you if you don't already know how to AP or LD. You must put in the work first to reap any reward from the pill. I only took it because I am in a horrendous dry spell and have been literally aching to project again for over a year. I'm desperate enough to do anything that helps. I do not plan on taking these pills forever. Only to get the ball rolling again and knock this rust off. So if you're in that same boat, I say go for it. If you're hoping to have your first projection by taking this pill, sorry but you will be sorely disappointed. You must possess all of the skills and experience it takes to know how to navigate yourself out of body, otherwise you're just going to lay there in sleep paralysis completely freaked out all night.
It's hard to say that I'd rather stay awake when I'm asleep; because my dreams are bursting at the seams.

Lumaza

#21
Quote from: Aaron330 on July 22, 2016, 04:33:57
I have been practicing AP for almost 3 years now. I meditate every day. I learned how to AP and LD on my own years ago long before I ever tried this pill.
I knew who you were. I used to reply to your posts often back in 2014 under my former name "Lionheart". That is why I didn't see any harm in you getting "assistance" from a pill and I replied accordingly.

I watched your progress through the years.

But I will say that I am also a member on some other Forums and for some reason many practitioners seem to be experiencing a major drought with projection lately. I used to be able to become lucid in my Dreams almost on a nightly basis. But lately, I am awaking with just bits and pieces a recall. So much so that I have been going back to logging in point form. For some reason though the bits and pieces don't seem to be aligning together at all.
I also haven't had a OBE for about a month now and my Phase sessions seem to strand me in the 3D darkness, the "void". But that's as far as they go.

I did have a weird LD a couple of nights ago where I was stuck in some kind of maze/gaming World. It was a constant battle in that one. Humanity was completely out of control and there was strife and chaos everywhere. I certainly hope that this isn't the path that the "collective" consciousness as a whole is choosing now. This World needs a lot of healing in every meaning of the word. Fear and uncertainty seems to be the current mindset of the general populace today.  :|

"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."  Nicolai Tesla

Volgerle

Quote from: Aaron330 on July 22, 2016, 04:33:57...the pill WILL NOT work for you if you don't already know how to AP or LD. You must put in the work first to reap any reward from the pill. .... If you're hoping to have your first projection by taking this pill, sorry but you will be sorely disappointed. You must possess all of the skills and experience it takes to know how to navigate yourself out of body, otherwise you're just going to lay there in sleep paralysis completely freaked out all night.
These are some great points you are making. Indeed, this is true. You can use it as a kind of crutch or a launch pad to get the ball rolling by getting into "the state" (SP, phase, vibrations,...) easily, but you must go further on your own, techniques, practices, strategies, actions, whatever you have learnt beforehand in your experiences (or try out once in a while what you read about from other APers or books ... and practice, practice, practice).

Xanth

Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 21, 2016, 17:04:06
...
I don't have the time nor inclination to play your word games Robert.

Post with a bit more respect towards the members and their beliefs and you won't have any problems.

It's clear you have MUCH to learn... and I don't mean from a Projection-viewpoint.

Xanth

I have a few minutes to reply...
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 21, 2016, 17:04:06
I truly hope that's not true... (in fact I'm pretty sure its not).
You did just tell me recently to "Feel free to disagree with my "opinion" all you want"...?... right? I hope that's really okay, then.
It's the one constant in discussion of these topics.  Nobody has the right answer, there are only beliefs and opinions.
Hence, there's nobody here who can stand up and say that they have "The truth", unless they're talking about "personal truth".

The Truth is vastly different from Personal Truth.

QuoteOf course, but 'experiences' and 'definitions' are two completely different things. Language is quite useful and plenty sufficient to describe things outside this physical reality.
Language is physical in nature.  It breaks down as soon as you attempt to use it to describe non-physical experiences.
This is why there is such a disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams".  
Give my book a quick read and you'll understand further.

QuoteA "model of a hierarchical reality" is not a belief but a construct that facilitates common ground for discussion. It is not a "defined Belief" but a 'model'...
First, we'll say this: a model is only a model and only represents something, but it is not that thing.
Secondly, a model based upon what?  The (as I like to call it) "classical model of reality" is nothing but mere belief... as everything else discussed on this forum.
It's one of MANY kinds of models we discuss on this forum.

QuoteNote also that I HAVE NEVER BELITTLED ANOTHER PERSON'S EXPERIENCE.
And therein lies the problem... it's become such a normal pattern of interacting for you that you don't even know you're doing it.
To be extremely blunt (I'm like that), you're actually very rude, but that's besides the point.  Temper your knowledge with understanding... it goes a long way.

QuoteYou may be oversimplifying here. I understand that you may say tomato and I say tomahto. I understand that some say 'truck' and others say 'lorry' and both words mean the same thing.  I understand that some say 'elevator' and others say 'lift' and both words mean the same thing. But when someone wants to say that 'truck' and 'elevator' are the same thing I might feel inclined to disagree. If someone says my elevator is better than that guy's truck for cooking breakfast I might feel inclined to ask, "What?".

I think I know the recent exchange here that you might be speaking from on this (the one of religion vs spirituality).

Among new agey types there is not just an acceptance of anti-Christian bias and even hate speech, but an almost sort of a camaraderie and encouragement they give each other. On basically all AP & LD and other metaphysical type forums Anti Catholic bigots and covert Christian haters seem to get a pass for some reason. There really is a double standard in this sense. Anyone who dares to speak up in defense of the more religious sorts is quickly reprimanded and often banned, usually on blatantly false trumped up charges.
Allow me to provide a quick link for you to peruse:  http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2012/07/22/labeling-experiences-of-the-non-physical/
That link should give you a good starter on my perspective.