Extreme Difficulty in Defining LD

[kozzi]

Timeless,

You said, "Total and complete 'conscious-like' lucidity is rare."  So, are you saying that not many people achieve this state of awareness in dreams?  Or are you saying that a person, even a practiced LD'er, does not achieve this 'conscious-like' lucidity in his/her dreams very often?

Kozzi

[kozzi]

Timeless,

Hmm...  I'll consider that.  Just to let you know, not that you've bordered on this or not, but I don't really get into the theoretical side of OBE or LD.  I don't like it, because most of the time people are full of crap when they talk about some of this stuff.  I'd rather stick to the obvious and practical facts.  I guess I thought you kind of bordered on this when you said, "For total lucidity most people need to develop a consistent high vibration spiritual nature".  I think I understand your thought, the only thing is that I know for a fact that quite the opposite is true.  I've experienced LD during very bad times of my life, and some quite successful and famous LDers and OBEers have written about this:  (see writings by Sylvan Muldoon; I've forgotten the name of the specific book or books)  Anyway, back to the original subject.  

So, do you find that total lucidity is rare with yourself?

Kozzi

[Terry B]

quote:Originally posted by timeless
When we start remembering our dreams with greater clarity, we are taking a step towards lucid dreaming.  Some here have started to make decisions in their dreams, which is a big step.  I know one person here chose not to fight in a dream but instead ask questions.  

Timeless,

I think that "one person" is really great btw. In fact i really want to know him/her more. It must take a super duper highly spiritual ascended being to ever attempt something of that caliber. []

On the serious note I notice that I tend to get more ld when younger. Now I still get them, but not that often, and recall is not as excellent. I also notice that there are period of dry spell and period where I seem to remember so much in one night (it's like I have a very active night life). What I have found out is that my lucidity in a dream is very closely related to my 'waking' moment lucidity. If I went through the day with high spirit, enthuasissm, alertness and awareness, chance are my lucidity will carry on to my dreamtime. However if I have boring day and went through the day without much awareness (or much absent mindedness) I usually don't get to remember much or retain lucidity in my dream.

I found out that my best friend, who is a frequent lucid dreamer has very good imagination. I think my  imagination are pretty good too but unlike him, I'm not a very good artist (although I sometime imagine elaborate scene and event in my mind).

Terrence.

[kozzi]

Timeless,

You're right, I shouldn't always assume that the "mumbo jumbo" is useless, it's just that I find a lot of people speaking that way and I don't get much practical information out of them.  What you've said, however, is very useful and I appreciate it.  Its application might be a little advanced though  

Anyway, back to the point of the original post.  I have lucid dreams, but probably not quite as many as you and others here might have.  However, I do have very lucid dreams on occassion.  When I try to talk to people about the experience of lucid dreaming I find it hard to know if we understand each other on the definition of a lucid dream.  What I've found is that this represents a problem of terminology or vocabulary.  Also, a lot of people assume that just remembering their dreams is the same as knowing they ARE dreaming.  It may simply be my own disbelief causing this problem.  I have one dispute, though, with that point.  I can ask this question of anyone I've talked to about LD and I feel I can know whether or not they have ever had one:  "Have you ever become aware of the fact that you were dreaming and then suddenly everything became clear and focused.  This experience would most likely have caused you to become overly excited, and thus causing you to lose focus and eventually wake up, or you might have stayed in for a while, but it is the excitement that eventually causes a loss of focus."  This to me is what my first few or several experiences were like, and then every once in a while the same.  I don't see how anyone can have one and not feel that way, but then again I don't know everything and there are a lot of different people in the world.  What do you think?  Is there an inherent problem with trying to describe the experience of LD, because of the boundary between experience and language?

Kozzi

[kozzi]

Timeless,

That's very interesting.  Sounds like life afforded you a unique opportunity to learn how to handle LD.  Unfortunately for me, I had to rediscover LD and OBE at a later age.  However, now that I can LD and OBE I look back at my earlier age and can remember being lucid in dreams.  I guess I just never really thought about it you know?  I'm still trying to be able to LD at will.  It usually happens spontaneously, which would be interesting to apply what you've told me about lower vibrational states due to low times in life.  I've written before that I have LDs and OBEs better when at the beach...   I assume now that this must be due to higher vibrational states because of my positive reaction.  I've had trouble with WILD for an interesting reason, which may be considered a negative reaction:  I am afraid of lying on my back at night, because of the people that come and touch me and talk to me.  It never fails...  well, I shouldn't say never, but a lot of times (maybe most) I'll feel someone grab my leg and lift it, or I'll see someone's face just pop up right in front of me and say my name.  I know it's really awesome, but it's almost too much for me to handle sometimes because of what I call the "Hollywood Factor".  I'm sure you might know what I mean.

Kozzi

[Terry B]

Hearing voice or conversation (which can make sense or don't), hearing betiful melodies or song, seeing faces and scene(which may be frightening or don't), being poked and touched on your body is a common pre-obe symptom. I used to be afraid of sleeping on my back when I'm younger as it seem to promote sleep paralysis and other weird stuff (but sleeping on my side does not save me completeely either). Takes me some time to get over the fear of feeling presence in my room, and seeing people coming over and doing stuff in my room (usually they look like person that I know such as friends or families, which I don't know why). Sometime I think that I have invisible roommate who didn't pay the rent [].

My spontantenous obe usually come from me sleeping on my back. It seems that sleeping on the back make it easier for many people to OBE or have OBE symptoms. Maybe because most usually sleep on their side and not accustomed to sleeping supine.

My first experience with being pulled out of the body is when I decide to call for help getting out. I was stuck at at that time and feeling a little bit adventourous (reading about other people exp. with guide I decide to experiment). Actually I just intent guide, guide in my mind. What comes after that really surprised me. Even thought I was asking for help, I never thought I would get anything and I'm obviously not prepared. I felt two hand holding my upper arm and slowly pulling me away. Of course I'm afraid. I yelled no in my mind and I ask for God's help. The hand let go very quickly, I never quite finish resisting and asking God's help. What follow is interesting, after that incident when I just relax in the vibration and floating over my sleeping body, I would get pulled by two hand slowly away from my body. After a few time I decide I have enough fear and I will get on with the experience. I possibly met the one pulling me (at least that last time) and it was an interesting encounter. However I have to learn more about this experience before I can say more.

I found intersting that when I realise that I'm dreaming and come to a halt in whatever i'm doing and thinking, the dreamscene will peel in  a movielike effect, revealing another surrounding, which is more stable. Frank said projecting from a dream is a valid way of projection and that used to be his main projection method some time ago.

[kozzi]

All,

I know that they call lying on your back with your arms to your side the "earth" position.  I assume some wonderful person very long ago gave us this knowledge.  I guess I should welcome the experiences, but as I mentioned I have a fear that I know is developed only because of Hollywood hype.  The movie Sixth Sense really messed me up for awhile.  I've seen 3 ghosts in my life, maybe more, but at least 3 very visible and clear ghosts.  They were not at all scary!!!  That's why I hate the fact that a stupid movie could ruin it for me.  Anyway, thanks to all for the interest in my question or at least the thread.  Unfortunately, we've not at all touched on the true topic of the thread!!!    Oh well, good discussion though.

Kozzi

[kozzi]

Have any of you noticed that it's extremely difficult to define a lucid dream or to be sure that, when talking to someone about lucid dreams, you're both on the same page?  For instance, when I tell someone about lucid dreams I define it as this:  

a lucid dream is a dream in which you know that you're dreaming, and everything becomes clear and you continue to experience the dream with full knowledge that it is a dream and you can do anything you wish, and spend time looking at anything you wish.

I'll also emphasize sometimes how important it is to notice the clarity of the dream.  I find that a lot of people think that remembering their dreams is enough to be a lucid dream.  They know that they were dreaming, so they believe that we're talking about the same thing.  But, no...   you have to know you are dreaming at that moment, and then it may only continue for a few seconds or even several minutes, but this is generally accompanied by a very overwhelming feeling of excitement, which takes some practice to get control of.  

Anyway, that's my question...   Did I make sense?

Kozzi