Deep reflections on free will.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I have thought a lot about free will in my life from time to time. And most of all, I have first hand experience of thinking I had this great free will, and opportunity in life, only to realize I had gotten trapped. I got trapped in my beliefs. And so it was an illusion that I had this great free will. Which I think most of humanity is plagued by this illusion too. And so this is what I have learned.

IMO we don't have true free will in an ultimately way by any measure. It's more like self will, than free will. In order for our will to be truly be free, one would have have have access to or be knowledge in truth, and reality. Since without truth and reality, there is no free in free will. Since being free depends on truth and reality. Since the absence of truth and reality, leads only to more ignorance, and a trapped will. IMO our will needs to be guided by truth and reality, only once we start to develop that, can we start developing higher levels of free will.

Also when we speak of free will, the Abrahamic religions will automatically assert without much thought. Yes we have free will. But this is simple thinking. Free will is only as good as much as it's been trained in the ways of reality and truth. This takes time, learning, thinking, debating, practice, and understanding to develop into more higher levels of free will. Also when we think of free will, one can have a lot of free will in one area of their lives, while totally neglecting another area of their lives. And this is not free will. They are trapped in their will when it comes to this area of neglect, or they are blind to it. And whether they knowingly see the need, but don't act, or are totally ignorant of it, they are both still trapped in their will, unable to properly address the area of neglect. And that is not being free. So free will is more than just a black and white, yes or no ability. Free will has many colors, and even textures.

And the cool part is everyone has their own uniquely guided wills that give us all kinds of personalities, and beliefs. And that is fine. I think when our free will is being set free, we become unique more, more. This is good, we look at nature and the economy and we see that diversity and competition is good. So don't be afraid to think out side the box and have fun. Check something out that you never checked out before. The only way to do that is to SEEK, SEEK, SEEK. And then use that light, truth and reality that you gained to break the bonds and chains of ignorance in your life.

I would love to leave it there with that great saying. But I must help more. Astral projection is a good start for many of you here but there is more. IMO I have found that I could go deeper, and deeper into my own beliefs by typing about them in emails to my friend, to not only learn about my beliefs, but learn new beliefs, truths, and things. I use to do this a lot, and still do to a degree. I often talk to a friend of mine, and have learned to really use my free will to the best of my limited ability. I still have room for improvement no doubt, but the vast part of my beliefs have been freed from years of ignorance. Not only just thinking, but engaging in debate, both oral and written. Especially when writing, since we can often make a much deeper response when writing than talking. But both talking and writing about our beliefs and debating is great for exercising your free will. And most of all finding the things that are holding you back, by contemplating on things you have learned, and your own beliefs. Critical thinking can be effective, but that must be accompanied by true curiosity. Otherwise it can get out of balance. Also let me add, researching is great. I am amazed at what I learning, and what is going to happen in the world. Learning of the possibilities. All of these things increase our understanding of truth, and this truth, this light, shines out the darkness of ignorance. Which only leads to better decisions. I can go down the list of things that can, or may help, like meditation, astral projection, science, and even psychedelic psychotherapy, but many of you already know them. I just put it into context with free will. So again SEEK SEEK SEEK that thou may be set free from thy bonds and chains.

Let me know what you think. Peace.

Edit: Let me know if you agree with me, or if you just want to congratulate me on getting out of my mental belief traps. But if you disagree with me, let us debate it, and talk about it, and see if we can get down to some deeper truth.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I should have added that perhaps you don't have any real big bonds and chains to break. But without gaining the light and truth of reality we can become susceptible to the negative effects of ignorance. Like you just don't know, what you don't know. You guys already knew that though.

[Xanth]

You chose to make this post.
You could have just as easily NOT made this post. 

I could have chosen to not respond to your post.
I could have just as easily NOT responded. 

You can look at it as simply or complex as you want... in the end, you have a decision space (which constitutes all the choices you have recognized that you can make) and you choose one of those actions to take.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

You chose to make this post.
You could have just as easily NOT made this post.  

I could have chosen to not respond to your post.
I could have just as easily NOT responded.  

You can look at it as simply or complex as you want... in the end, you have a decision space (which constitutes all the choices you have recognized that you can make) and you choose one of those actions to take.

You sound like the Buddha. When people came to him with problems, the Buddha would give these very simplistic answers, and say things like the world will continue to make problems, let the world be, and just meditate.

I am sorry, but I do see the value in things like scientific inquiry to end suffering on this earth. As great as the Buddha was, not everyone is going to meditate while ignoring the physical world, and it's causes and effects. As we go into the future we will see science will be the main driving force in the future into not only the natural world, but to IMO the spiritual too. Since there is little difference ultimately speaking, between the natural world, and the spiritual world.

Perhaps I am wrong about the meaning of what you said. I know you didn't prescribe meditation like the Buddha, but you just tried to simplify it that we always have all the options to us regardless, of any seeking. At least that was the gist of what I got from you, and that is fine. Obviously all of our options we have at any given moment, will be in our consciousness, simply speaking. But sometimes if we want to end suffering in a better way, we must dig into our our minds, or go to others, and books, research for a better understanding to ending suffering, not only our suffering but others.

Peace.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

in the end, you have a decision space (which constitutes all the choices you have recognized that you can make) and you choose one of those actions to take.

Let me also point out that this type of understanding of free will doesn't differentiate between animal free will, and advanced high level free will; which is better suited for high level beings, of high intelligence, with more possibilities, with more freedom of the will.

Peace.

[Lionheart]

 Why do you create a thread on this topic, Plasma, if you are just going to attack the replies? What's the point of it?

What do you WANT to hear?

" As great as the Buddha was not everyone is going to meditate while ignoring the physical world and it's causes and effects."

No one is ignoring the physical worlds and it's cause and effect. People are just learning to evolve with it as it evolves.

We learn to overcome our "suffering". Suffering does in fact teach many lessons. This world is about experiencing. The good, bad and ugly, they are all experiences.

Free will gives you a choice to take either road A or B. Almost everything we do contains a decision. Do we go left are right. Do we stay on a righteous path or just live life as a "free for all" and smash everything and everyone that gets in our way. Both are choices made by our free will and both of them create new happening/situations and sometimes dire consequences. But we learn from them.

Every cause has an effect. It works that way in chemistry/Science and life in general.

Meditation gives you the opportunity to "step back" from what is occurring and possibly see it from a different point of view.

Why ME, WOE is me. Well ask YOURSELF why me. There is always something to learn there. Even if it takes years after the actual event that caused the tragedy and despair to see it.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Why do you create a thread on this topic, Plasma, if you are just going to attack the replies?

I am not attacking replies. I was debating. Let me explain. I said "Let me know what you think".
And that is what I got. If I feel like one has another take on free will than me, then I want to talk about it, and debate it. I am not trying to "ATTACK" the other person. But rather advance myself, and some others if I can while I am at it.

What's the point of it?

Well Xanth could have just said: "Yeah that is great. And that is one good way to see it." And I would have thanked him. But he felt there was a better way to see free will, and that if fine, diversity can be good. Then I want to debate it, and see where it would go, and if any of us could get down to some underlying truth here that perhaps one of us didn't see before.

In other words, make this post whatever you want it to be. But if you disagree with me in anyway, I want to debate it as there is no reason to not try to get some deeper understanding out of it. I am a seeker, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I know you probably took the Buddha comment as a real attack against Xanth perhaps. More on that later.

More on answering this question later.

What do you WANT to hear?

I already kind of answered that. If you all wanted to just keep it the way it was, then don't reply. Or congratulate me on overcoming my fears, and getting out of my trapped and ignorant beliefs. Or you can just agree on my stance on free will. I don't care. But if someone disagrees with me on free will, or see free will another way, I want to try to see if there is any truth to be gained, and I will talk about it, and debate it. As debate can distill truth down to more refined forms of truth.

No one is ignoring the physical worlds and it's cause and effect. People are just learning to evolve with it as it evolves.

I know it was mainly the Buddha, and some advanced meditators that ignored the physical world in practice, and didn't see the real benefits of studying the physical world as a good idea to ending suffering. As the Buddha never prescribed studying science as a means of ending suffering. Now we know better. BTW I was not saying that Xanth was ignoring the physical world, I was just saying that he seems to be taking a very simplistic approach to free will. Kind of like how the Buddha was so simplistic. That is all.

We learn to overcome our "suffering". Suffering does in fact teach many lessons. This world is about experiencing. The good, bad and ugly, they are all experiences.

Free will gives you a choice to take either road A or B. Almost everything we do contains a decision. Do we go left are right. Do we stay on a righteous path or just live life as a "free for all" and smash everything and everyone that gets in our way. Both are choices made by our free will and both of them create new happening/situations and sometimes dire consequences. But we learn from them.

I agree. Though still a simple understanding of free will IMO. Unless you see no need for understanding free will at a higher level?

Every cause has an effect. It works that way in chemistry/Science and life in general.

Meditation gives you the opportunity to "step back" from what is occurring and possibly see it from a different point of view.

I agree. Meditation is good for developing free will. Obviously for this type of benefit to come from meditation one has to contemplate with meditation. So it's not just meditation. And of course meditation's counterpart that can never be replaced is science. IMO there are two types of science. The study of the subjective. Meaning all things in the mind. And the study of the objective. All things in the outside world. The best way to study the mind subjectively is to do science on those that meditate. I know it's on the fringes right now. But it will grow in the future. Obviously studying psychedelics would fall in the subjective science. Anyway I digress....

Why ME, WOE is me. Well ask YOURSELF why me.

I wasn't saying that stuff. I am proud of my accomplishments. I am not asking for sympathy, and I am sorry if somehow I gave that impression.

There is always something to learn there. Even if it takes years after the actual event that caused the tragedy and despair to see it.

Are you saying that since I was "Attacking" "Xanth" that I am saying, or perhaps my subconscious is saying "why me", "woe is me"? I am having a pretty hard time right now really deciphering what you are saying here exactly. Please help?

Perhaps I should have more specifically wrote out what type of reply I am looking for here. There edited it. BTW in going back to my Buddha post I guess I can see how that might be taken as an attack. And I am sorry for that. But I assure you that is not what I meant. So let's stay on topic, and not talk about the Buddha anymore.

Peace.

[Xanth]

You sound like the Buddha.

Thank you. 

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Thank you.  

That is great Xanth and all, but can you, and I, and the people at astral pulse live the Buddha life, and give up everything for at least 60,000 hours of meditation or more. Thus leaving all causes and effects to themselves, and all the ramifications of them. Easier said, than done my friend.

Oops Xanth replied about the Buddha LionHeart, so I had to reply. What can I say, I couldn't resist. But hey I wasn't attacking Xanth now was I?

[Xanth]

Oops, my reply was ego based... guess I'm not Buddha afterall.

It's all good guys.  I simply posted my perspective above. 
That's all I'm about now-a-days... or, at least, I try to be.

Eventually, one learns that there's ultimately no real point to discussing points... I know that sounds strange, but nobody really *DISCUSSES* these things... they simply state their opinion/belief/perspective, and then go into defend-mode.  Just state what you want to state and move along...

Responses to it, unless genuinely asked in curiosity, are telling of the responder.

My first post is what it is.  Take what you think you can gleam from it and move on... if there's nothing you can or want to take from it, that's fine too.  You still need to move on though. 

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Eventually, one learns that there's ultimately no real point to discussing points... I know that sounds strange, but nobody really *DISCUSSES* these things... they simply state their opinion/belief/perspective, and then go into defend-mode.

Sorry to say this, but that sounds very narrow minded. I mean science would never evolve if every scientist just stated what they believed, and then went into defend mode without any discussing. They discuss things, and try to figure things out. That is how science is done in part. Perhaps that is not what you really meant, but I suppose for people here that talk about something like astral projection that is really on the bleeding edge of science to say the least. They might need to take a similar route. But no doubt discussing can still be used for figuring out the probabilities, and finding better of truths. It just can't go anywhere definitive until scientists can test it.

There are higher truths that are used for advanced beings, and lower truths used for the animals. Yes both are often correct in some way, but one is better no doubt than the other, no doubt. Now which version would you want? The version used by lower end of the scale, or the version of truth used on the higher end of the scale? OK this is your chance to use free will. Let's see how free your will really is. Oh why did I say that? Lionheart's might think I am attacking you again. OK Lionheart just to let you know, I wasn't attacking Xanth. I'm trying to have a friendly and sincere conversation here.

At the same time I also see the need for those that can, to bypass all the need for free will, and cause and effect, and meditate to Buddhahood. But let's be serious none of us can really do that. We still have to work here with cause and effect, and use our free will the best we can.

[Xanth]

There comes a time when one realizes a (the?) truth about not only WHAT they are... but also HOW they are.  Then the choice is where you decide to go from there... because, at that point, you can't stand still. 

[beavis]

You chose to make this post.
You could have just as easily NOT made this post. 

I could have chosen to not respond to your post.
I could have just as easily NOT responded. 

You can look at it as simply or complex as you want... in the end, you have a decision space (which constitutes all the choices you have recognized that you can make) and you choose one of those actions to take.

You sound like the Buddha. When people came to him with problems, the Buddha would give these very simplistic answers, and say things like the world will continue to make problems, let the world be, and just meditate.

I am sorry, but I do see the value in things like scientific inquiry to end suffering on this earth. As great as the Buddha was, not everyone is going to meditate while ignoring the physical world, and it's causes and effects.

Meditation is a state of mind, not something that requires you do or not do any certain thing at the same time. It means to have a balanced state of mind so you flow with metaphysical events (which have an effect on the real world). To think you must disconnect from the real world and not try to solve large scale problems or your individual problems, is as much putting those problems above the meditation as focusing directly on them. Do what you think should be done, and the meditation about it is to not feel pain if it does not happen as you think it should. Since you are doing what you think should be done, there is nothing to regret. You move on if you succeed or fail, to whatever is the next thing you think should be done, which may be to continue practical things in the world or expand your mind across galaxies or whatever you think it should be. I work toward both.

[soarin12]

True that the deeper we fall into bondage, the less we we seem to experience the ability to choose differently.  Many have said the definition of hell is precisely that.  Missing opportunity after opportunity to choose differently until bondage is just what you 'are.'  Sometime we may get to that point of being 'too far gone' and our wonderful angels/guides give us a wake up call, reminding us that we still have the ability to choose.  I am grateful for them.

Seeking is important.  There is a time in life for it.  Also a time for finding... and the peace that it brings.  Writing and discussing with honest seekers of truth can be beneficial.  Debate, in my experience, only brought  more separateness, divisions, disharmony and sadness.  I no longer engage in it.  Having said that, there is a time in life for it, if only for the purpose of coming to this realization.

Thank you for expressing your thoughts!

[Xanth]

I'll say one thing...
There are very few people on this forum, or anywhere for that matter, who REALLY want to discuss.

[soarin12]

I'll say one thing...
There are very few people on this forum, or anywhere for that matter, who REALLY want to discuss.

Agree completely!  If I have decided to discuss something, I go in with the mentality that I might learn something or at least gain new perspective.  If feel the same mentality coming back my way, it is a rare blessing indeed.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Meditation is a state of mind, not something that requires you do or not do any certain thing at the same time. It means to have a balanced state of mind so you flow with metaphysical events (which have an effect on the real world). To think you must disconnect from the real world and not try to solve large scale problems or your individual problems, is as much putting those problems above the meditation as focusing directly on them. Do what you think should be done, and the meditation about it is to not feel pain if it does not happen as you think it should. Since you are doing what you think should be done, there is nothing to regret. You move on if you succeed or fail, to whatever is the next thing you think should be done, which may be to continue practical things in the world or expand your mind across galaxies or whatever you think it should be. I work toward both.

I know what meditation is. I was mainly pointing out what it takes to become an advanced meditator that has surpassed the karmic effects of cause and effect, that is all.

True that the deeper we fall into bondage, the less we we seem to experience the ability to choose differently.  Many have said the definition of hell is precisely that.  Missing opportunity after opportunity to choose differently until bondage is just what you 'are.'  Sometime we may get to that point of being 'too far gone' and our wonderful angels/guides give us a wake up call, reminding us that we still have the ability to choose.  I am grateful for them.

Seeking is important.  There is a time in life for it.  Also a time for finding... and the peace that it brings.  Writing and discussing with honest seekers of truth can be beneficial.  Debate, in my experience, only brought  more separateness, divisions, disharmony and sadness.  I no longer engage in it.  Having said that, there is a time in life for it, if only for the purpose of coming to this realization.

Thank you for expressing your thoughts!

Yeah I can imagine debate can be harmful. I mean I look at the type of debate in the political areas, and I can see how this can be harmful. On the other hand I have debated with a Christian, and brought him out of his narrowly constructed mind set into one that is much much more open now, and he now even believes in things like astral projection. So debate certainly can be useful.

I'll say one thing...
There are very few people on this forum, or anywhere for that matter, who REALLY want to discuss.

Agree completely!  If I have decided to discuss something, I go in with the mentality that I might learn something or at least gain new perspective.  If feel the same mentality coming back my way, it is a rare blessing indeed.

Well let me put like this to both of you. In being an ex-christian some years ago, and having had my beliefs totally torn down, and rebuilt from the ground up is amazing and yet humbling. I am probably one the most open minded people you will meet. Yet I have reason for my beliefs. For instance politically, I will admit that I don't know what the best answer is, other than we need to make seasteads, and debunk some of the myths that persist in society today. Seasteading is going to revolutionize the way we think of government, politics, economy, and society not just through debate, but first and foremost testing on seasteads. The first one is going to be built in this decade.

http://www.seasteading.org/

I am very aware of what is going on in the world and I'm very open minded to what the future will hold.

To be honest if nobody can seriously talk with me about free will here then it would be very surprising to me. Since I would have hoped and thought that someone here would have had a more comprehensive understanding of the meaning and context of free will than what I have heard so far. But as with meditation so it is with astral projection, both only give you a certain kind of discernment and truth, but they are not the fountains of truth and discernment. That is why truth and discernment must be cultivated within the person, and tested in the real world. That is also why all the meditational religions are different in someway, and they are not all the same. It's because the truth had to be interpreted by the practitioner. Likewise we also must cultivate truth and discernment. I remember a meditation master saying paraphrased: "truth is not inherent within us, it must be cultivated within us." Especially if we are not an ascended master.

So lastly let me point out that I've had my beliefs pulled out form under me. And lastly to top it off I am a Universalist. So again I am very open minded. And no I am probably not the Universalist you are thinking of. I have never went to a Universalist church, but I hold the beliefs that are closest to them. Which IMO they are one of the most open minded groups out there. I look at things on a scale and don't see them as black and white. I am not as narrow minded as what you may think. None of you have taken me seriously in any real talk or debate, so in that regard should I say that you are more narrow minded than me? Edit you don't have to answer that, I just mainly want to talk about free will. Does anyone here agree with my take on free will?

Peace.

[soarin12]

I think maybe you misinterpreted our posts.  I wasn't judging you or calling you narrow minded at all.  When I agreed with Xanth's post about people not really wanting to discuss, I wasn't talking about you or your posts.  My agreement was about people in general.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my post above on my position on free will, so I'll restate.  Basically, I agree with you somewhat.  You say that when we are trapped in beliefs (in bondage) we really don't have free will.  It's an illusion.   I'll go as far as to say that we don't PERCEIVE our underlying free will.  We're blinded to it temporarily.  I look at it that way because I've been trapped in many beliefs over the years, but extended honest soul searching would always kick me out of it and I would recognize my ability to choose differently.  It's really not so different from what you're saying.  Maybe just different labels we're giving things.  At least that's  the way I see it.  You may disagree.  I like what you said about as you become less trapped, you become more free and more unique. So true. When I found truth in my life, I felt that uniqueness more and more, and felt completely authentically 'me.'

I can identify with your path.  I was in a literal bible church for several years and believe me, I've seen it all.  I still call myself a Christian because I am still a follower of Jesus Christ.  I just don't believe in their literal bible doctrinal garbage.  It kind of bugs me that they took over the name 'Christian' and ruined it for the rest of us!

Peace to you and blessings on your path!

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I think maybe you misinterpreted our posts.  I wasn't judging you or calling you narrow minded at all.  When I agreed with Xanth's post about people not really wanting to discuss, I wasn't talking about you or your posts.  My agreement was about people in general.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my post above on my position on free will, so I'll restate.  Basically, I agree with you somewhat.  You say that when we are trapped in beliefs (in bondage) we really don't have free will.  It's an illusion.   I'll go as far as to say that we don't PERCEIVE our underlying free will.  We're blinded to it temporarily.  I look at it that way because I've been trapped in many beliefs over the years, but extended honest soul searching would always kick me out of it and I would recognize my ability to choose differently.  It's really not so different from what you're saying.  Maybe just different labels we're giving things.  At least that's  the way I see it.  You may disagree.  I like what you said about as you become less trapped, you become more free and more unique. So true. When I found truth in my life, I felt that uniqueness more and more, and felt completely authentically 'me.'

I can identify with your path.  I was in a literal bible church for several years and believe me, I've seen it all.  I still call myself a Christian because I am still a follower of Jesus Christ.  I just don't believe in their literal bible doctrinal garbage.  It kind of bugs me that they took over the name 'Christian' and ruined it for the rest of us!

Peace to you and blessings on your path!

I actually agree with your take on free will, unless there was something I said above that made you think otherwise. I also agree that we can form a veil as one might call it, on the our options in life. Which takes away our freedom of the will. I am guessing that you agree with the way I put that. It's kind of like a bear in nature that thinks he has free will. That is until he eats some psychedelic psilocybin mushrooms, and rethinks life. LOL I had to put that joke in there. You know they say psychedelics and shamanism was the first religion on earth. They can sure make people rethink life. Anyway.....

So was the way I described it what you think too?

Peace.

[soarin12]

It's kind of like a bear in nature that thinks he has free will. That is until he eats some psychedelic psilocybin mushrooms, and rethinks life.

So was the way I described it what you think too?

Ha-Ha!

Yes, I think we are definitely on the same page. 

[Astralzombie]

To me, free will doesn't mean we have the ability to do anything we want at any time. There are always limitations posed either by ourselves, nature, or from others. The more we learn, the more options we will have in any given situation but there will always be obstacles.

The strength and beauty of free will really comes into play when we have no real options available so instead of whining about something, we accept it and make peace or don't. Either way, it's your choice and your free to think and feel what you like.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

To me, free will doesn't mean we have the ability to do anything we want at any time. There are always limitations posed either by ourselves, nature, or from others. The more we learn, the more options we will have in any given situation but there will always be obstacles.

I totally agree, and that is why I say, how free our will is, is dependent on how much truth, and reality we have. Nice to have you chime in here Astralzombie.

Peace.

[Xanth]

"Decision Space"

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

"Decision Space"

I thought you said you weren't going to post here anymore. Do you have anything new to add to the conversation? I already know about decision space. It's a pretty simple truth to add to the free will conversation.

Peace.

[Szaxx]

Free will is something we strive for, it's based on the interpretation of how we live, how we are spiritually, mentally, physically and how we've adapted to our environment.
This is all physical world oriented.
We gave up the real free will by wanting an experience in a limited solid reality.
Once this experience is over, we can reflect on the narrow slit we created that our physical world free will appears to be. In the wider reality it's more than a narrow slit. It's still limited, but to what extent exactly, this is the next level, use your astral awareness and gained knowledge to make a comparison.
You now have two answers that differ.
Does free will exist, or is it an illusion of the psyche?


The spanner has been thrown...