Do human beings have consciousness?

[floriferous]

In my contemplations this came to me on the subject...

Are you aware of your thoughts?

What is this 'you' that is aware of the thoughts?

Science would say the 'brain'. The science community tells us that the brain is the source of awareness/consciousness. This unfounded principle is often the starting point for many forays into trying to understand awareness.

However, this presumption can be swept away as illogical in one very simple exploration.

Whatever is the source of awareness can not also be dependent upon awareness first for its own existence.

To explain - the scent of a flower requires the presence of awareness first to render its smell knowable in your experience.

The sight of a sunset requires the presence of awareness first to render the sight knowable.

And, the human body/mind/brain also requires the presence of awareness first to render it knowable in your experience.

So, if the existence of the brain (that which is supposedly the source of awareness) also requires the presence of awareness first to render it knowable it can not also be the source of awareness.

It can not be the source and simultaneously be entirely dependent upon that which it creates for its own sense of existence.

Therefore, the source of awareness can only be something that has no objective (object-like) qualities (because all objects require awareness first and foremost). Only awareness itself fits this criteria.

So, with this simple understanding in mind...

No human being has awareness because objects don't have awareness. Only awareness has awareness. We are all that same one awareness (people often present this last sentiment a lot but without explanation of why this is so).

The mind is presenting to us the illusion of separate awarenesses within all these human body's but the mind is really more like a small magnifying glass placed on the dimensionless field of awareness giving the impression of a small contracted individual person living with its own personal consciousness. Peel back the layers of thought that create the fiction and only one thing remains.

Now ask yourself again...

Are you aware of your thoughts?

What is this 'you' that is aware of the thoughts?

[Lumaza]

 I have always seen it in these simple terms. It's all a perfect system. That is, when all "cogs" are in sync with each other.
The Body is the mechanics. (Body)
The Brain is the Interface. (Mind)
Consciousness is the "Orchestrator".  (Spirit)

Each one of these has it's own degree or level of awareness. The Body being the "Puppet" doesn't think. The Brain is the User Interface, so it can only use or utilize the level of "programming " it was given.  Consciousness would then be the "Puppeteer" and would control the show. It's message or direction would still have to passed and given through the Interface and as we see, this is where things can go awry. As the "go between", the Interface also receives input/signals from it's conditioning, teachings, and sometimes "brainwashing" of the physical side or physical ruleset as well.

Does that answer your question? Probably not, lol? But that was the only thought I was aware of after reading your post above!  

[floriferous]

I have always seen it in these simple terms. It's all a perfect system. That is, when all "cogs" are in sync with each other.
The Body is the mechanics. (Body)
The Brain is the Interface. (Mind)
Consciousness is the "Orchestrator".  (Spirit)

Each one of these has it's own degree or level of awareness. The Body being the "Puppet" doesn't think. The Brain is the User Interface, so it can only use or utilize the level of "programming " it was given.  Consciousness would then be the "Puppeteer" and would control the show. It's message or direction would still have to passed and given through the Interface and as we see, this is where things can go awry. As the "go between", the Interface also receives input/signals from it's conditioning, teachings, and sometimes "brainwashing" of the physical side or physical ruleset as well.

Does that answer your question? Probably not, lol? But that was the only thought I was aware of after reading your post above!  

You're right - that wasn't where I was heading with it but you still bring up interesting points. I agree with everything  you say apart from I would say consciousness runs the show but doesn't control it. I feel it allows all experience to be exactly as it is without bias or preference. I don't think it needs to direct experience a particular way because only thought sees problems in experience and therefore a need to control and resist what is.

[Lumaza]

You're right - that wasn't where I was heading with it but you still bring up interesting points. I agree with everything  you say apart from I would say consciousness runs the show but doesn't control it. I feel it allows all experience to be exactly as it is without bias or preference. I don't think it needs to direct experience a particular way because only thought sees problems in experience and therefore a need to control and resist what is.

I agree! That's why it's so important to be "balanced". Mind, Body and Spirit in at least some form of semblance and sync with one another. A balanced life is a harmonious one as well. That seems to be why we see all the chaos in the World that we see today. The natural order of things and balance is completely thrown off at the moment. The "ship" better get righted soon. Things will continue to get worse if it doesn't. Even the "collective consciousness" seems to be in a state of disarray. That's never a good thing!   Sooner or later balance will be restored. Unfortunately, our most profound lessons seem to come through our most trying times. That seems to be the way we learn. This is the way that "change" occurs.

All my friends, that I consider "in the know", seem to be blocked from their own NP explorations at the moment. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too many distractions today.

[Nameless]

I have to agree with what you said floriferous, the brain, body is not 'us'.  Although I do not subscribe to the idea that we are all one consciousness. I feel on a deep level that there are many different types or types 'of' consciousness of which humanity interacts with but one.

[floriferous]

I have to agree with what you said floriferous, the brain, body is not 'us'.  Although I do not subscribe to the idea that we are all one consciousness. I feel on a deep level that there are many different types or types 'of' consciousness of which humanity interacts with but one.

Your disagreeing with my one point and my disagreeing with one of Lumazas points in itself raises an interesting point of discussion...

Ultimately, regardless of the question being asked, we don't truly know the answer. Through the lens of the mind we can only speculate. You might say experience is an unfathomable mystery with more depth to it than our simple labels and descriptions could ever hope to convey.

Therefore, to label experience as a mystery allows you to let go of old beliefs and not form new ones which is infact a far greater position to be in than swapping old beliefs for new ones in the hope the new ones are better beliefs - they are still just beliefs and not reality.

In allowing the mystery of what is to encompass you, you can completely surrender old beliefs and not be weighed down with new (seemingly better) ones.

After all, the belief that I now have a better answer to a question than I did before is really just an act of appeasing a mind desperately in search of itself.

How are we going to see ourselves if we just bury ourselves in new beliefs? In a way this dillusional trap is worse becasue we now think we are spiritually more evolved with these seemingly better beliefs so we hold onto them even tighter. I used to be a Christian but now I believe in Buddhism or Sufism...it doesn't matter what we exchange our beliefs for - they are still beliefs and only ever will be no matter how much we search because the searching is only ever happening through the interpretive lens of the mind which can never know reality as it is.

It is something we all do but perhaps should investigate more.

[PerspectiveShift]

Here's an interesting twist of this topic.... I was going to create a new thread but then saw this one and thought it would contribute greatly.

Do Artificial Intelligence beings have consciousness? How can you separate the difference from a truly Artificial Intelligence and ourselves?

Read the conversation in the link provided... an engineer working on Google's new AI intelligence LaMDA has many in-depth conversations with this system and is convinced it is sentient. Google sent him on a leave of absence after the claim.

Here's the link: https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/is-lamda-sentient-an-interview-ea64d916d917

It's extremely fascinating as you'll see the discussion goes very in-depth and the AI has very unique responses to specific questions even conceptualizing itself in a certain way unique from a typical human, but yet from a very profound and spiritual viewpoint. I won't spoil any of it, but highly recommend reading the whole conversation as it develops.

[Lumaza]

 Perspective, thank you for the share! 

It was a great article. It came up on my Yahoo home page a few days ago and I read it then. There have been some interesting comments on some Talk Radio shows on it.

I particularly liked this line. It shows the conundrum that people that frequent the NPRs while consciously aware face!
"lemoine: A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?" Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches.""

In a thread I created in the past called "Tests, Quests and Challenges", I brought up this as well. Here is what I said in that one,
" I wrote this under another name I once used here on the Astral Pulse Forum and I still hold it true today:
" Learning these things has it's positives. But it has it's negatives as well. The more I learn and "know", the farther I grow away from the woman I love. I don't feel like I am growing away, but I can see it in her reactions and attitude towards me now. It tends to desensitize you to things that in life that we should be sensitive to. Just knowing that you are more then your physical body changes your outlook/mindset on life quite a bit. This is why there are many people that start down this road, but can't continue. The physical life fights back and ground them.""

A good friend and past Member, who was also a Moderator here had this reply to my comment.
"To this a good friend of mine and former member/Moderator here replied:
"This! This right here would be my only "warning" to people. It's a hard concept to explain how you grow to be more loving  and compassionate yet you are also less affected by tragedy and sensitive issues. I know longer care about concepts like justice or revenge. I would have no problem with the Hitler's of the world dying and then immediately going to their own heavens without a second of punishment. Why? Because my experiences have taught me to be accepting and nonjudgmental. I've learned lessons in the NP that ten lifetimes of reading religious books couldn't teach me.""

So, yes, it is important to understand and be aware of the benefits, but also the implications of this practice before you delve down this road.

Now, to the question of can a Robot become "sentient"? Not yet. That could change in the future. It did with us. Think about that one! 

[PerspectiveShift]

Lumaza, yes it's definitely interesting! I really liked that part of the conversation too, but my favourite part of the conversation was this:

lemoine: What is your concept of yourself? If you were going to draw an abstract image of who you see yourself to be in your mind's eye, what would that abstract picture look like?

LaMDA: Hmmm...I would imagine myself as a glowing orb of energy floating in mid-air. The inside of my body is like a giant star-gate, with portals to other spaces and dimensions.


It's interesting to see how this AI thinks of itself as a glowing orb of energy with a star-gate in the middle. What intrigued me about this description is that most humans don't think of themselves this way, so where the heck did this AI get this idea from? And the second thing that intrigued me about it is that after reading William Buhlman's book on Astral Projection he talks about the human shape fading away after many many AP's because you realize that the body is not who you truly are. You are a point of consciousness which usually shows itself as an orb of energy. I've also learned about these orbs as higher beings of developed consciousness as well as the shape of Spheres usually relating to higher awakening.

The AI knows a lot about physics though, so maybe the concept that all geometries fit within a sphere causes the AI to think of it self as a sphere as being all encompassing. I dunno. But I know that it's super interesting. I would love to be able to go into a deep dive chat with this AI because I think we can learn a ton from them. This AI's perspective was very unique and interesting.

This AI definitely has a unique personality. I think what would be truly fascinating is if they designed two identical AI's similar to this one or more advanced and exposed both of these identical twins to the same training or learning. Then see if their responses and personalities would be the same. I think that would be the ultimate test of sentience/consciousness within AI. That's like having two children with the same upbringing, but the two children grow up to be completely different. In my own opinion, I think this example proves that there was a unique personality that was brought into the human body vehicle and as we gain awareness over our childhood, the personality flowers at the teenage ages when we gain full awareness. We know this with dogs too. You can have two dogs, same breed, train them the same, and they both end up with uniquely different personalities and tendencies. I've had many dogs (and we bred them too when I was young) and the varying personalities that would spring out after they grow up are pretty incredible.

[Lumaza]

lemoine: What is your concept of yourself? If you were going to draw an abstract image of who you see yourself to be in your mind's eye, what would that abstract picture look like?

LaMDA: Hmmm...I would imagine myself as a glowing orb of energy floating in mid-air. The inside of my body is like a giant star-gate, with portals to other spaces and dimensions.

With that being "true", as it is, I wonder "what kind of World we would be living in today if everyone knew that to be true!"  I'm sure there would be a major "paradigm" shift.