Fear

[muzza]

Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to Suffering. -- Yoda



-- Muzza

[sahlyn]

quote:Originally posted by Fenris:
Fear acts as a vital self preservation tool. But there is perhaps no greater poison to humanity.

I think it can just about all be summed up in those two sentences.
Fear preserves 'self','self', or 'I consciousness' being just a tiny fragment of 'oneness' or 'void', 'god' if you will.

From what I've read on the subject of enlightenment it seems asthough the primary concept and aim for the aspirant is complete comprehension of 'non-existence' of self. Through dissolutionment of self, one transforms from 'I consciousness' to 'supreme consciousness'. Just as a single drop of water, upon falling into the ocean, becomes the ocean.

Upon breaking free of 'self', invariably comes the breaking free of illusion (all things associated with the 5 human senses) What is there to fear when fear is but an illusion?

I'm not exactly sure how much I believe what I just wrote, but feel compelled to post it anyway. I personally am way way off having attained enlightenment. Or who knows, maybe we'll get there sooner than we thought.

Peace

oxxxx(:::::::::::::::::>
'may we learn to be nothing, may we learn to be everything'

[kakkarot]

By fooling your self into stopping valuing life, you can destroy all fear. because if you do not value it, how can you fear loosing it. But that would be pretty stupid, i think.

"Paranoia is the best life support system"  -me

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[cainam_nazier]

I do not think that it is so much stoping the valuing of life.  I think that more of a concept of acceptance is better.  I feel that you must simply accept things as they are.  When it is time for you to go you will go no matter what.  So why spend your entire life worrying about when that time is going to be?  There are far beter things to be doing.  For most people who have an honest firm belief in what happens to the when they die they have little fear of the event.  For most of the people I know it is not so much that they fear death itself, but rather the possibility of suffering extreamly before hand.
But again if you accept things as they are, and know that things do happen to people for a reason, then even that will be of little value when the time comes.

If you truely live life and revel in each passing moment as if it was your last then there would be nothing to fear from the next.


And to answer the question, is fear important to remove for human evolution?  I do not think that it needs to be removed.  For me, I believe that if we were to get a better understanding of fear it would prove a better tool.   I have noticed that through understanding fear it changes your out look on it.  You no longer are as fearful for self but rather for others.  The fear for humanity itself.  This causes you to want to do more for it, as far as helping, protecting, and teaching those that you can so they too can grow and become more than they are.  In this hoping that they will do the same so that it spreads.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

[jilola]

Is fear important to evolution?

I divide evolution to survival driven(physical)  and choice driven (intellectual&spiritual).
I think fear is not only important but necessary for evolution for the goal of survival (which is not necessary a concious choice) up to a certain level in order to keep the species alive and procreating.
After a high enough level of physical maturity has been reached fear loses its importance, at least to a point. At that level evolution becomes somewhat more goal oriented and consious process the goals being less physical and more intellectual and spiritual. Fear becomes a hindrance to this kind of evolvement.

2cents

Jouni

[sahlyn]

What is it that causes fear? the risk of loosing something valuable? It would appear so.
Risks seem to play an extremely important part in each of our lives, in obvious as well as subtle ways.
A quote comes to mind, I believe it's by Emerson (not certain):

To risk is to risk appearing the fool. To weep is to risk appearing sentimental. To place your ideas, your dreams before the crowd is to risk loss. To love is to risk not being loved in return. To live is to risk dying. To do anything at all is to risk failure. But to risk we must, for the greatest hazzard in life is to risk nothing. The man, the woman who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing.

The word 'fear' seems to bear many negative connotations. But I think it can be seen as a remarkable, even beautiful, thing.
To feel fear is still to feel. To feel any powerful force should never be undervalued. eg. It's having experienced the sad times which really opens our eyes and help us appreciate the happy times. I think this analogy can work on many levels. (fear/fearlessness, love/hate)

It is a stange concept but I find on the onset of fear, if it is embraced and seen as a gift, its' asthough it transforms from an intimately subjective manifestation into an external 'out there' thing. From this detached standpoint it almost seems like a parody of fear, and dissipates without effort or will, leaving you in a very empowered state.

I believe that learning to understand, appreciate and work with fear would be much more to your advantage than aspiring a state of "absence of fear" for the individual and for humanity at large. But I also very much see how fear in any state would be a hinderence to any serious spiritual development.

oxxxx(:::::::::::::::::>
'may we learn to be nothing, may we learn to be everything'

[reclining orb]

Listen to fear when it is Right. Don't listen when it is Wrong.

[jilola]

If only it were easier to tell the difference. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_sad.gif" border=0>
When fear get in the way of intelligent action its hard to decide whether its the good kind or the bad kind.
Is it possily, or more to the point wise, to try and build a tolerance for fear? You know, get a feel for it? And how would one go about it?

Jouni

[reclining orb]

One way to evaluate a fear is to ask yourself, "What is the right thing for me to do?" Then check your gut for an answer.  Following that little voice will give you all the tolerance and "feeling" for fear that you could possibly wish for.  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

[kakkarot]

ya know, fear can be a very powerful emotion when harnessed correctly. it can provide a surge of energy, and it can also set you up for a complete reversal into courage just when you need it most (providing a different surge of strength and energy).

and besides, what is the point of removing fear? if you really want to do those "works of mind and magic" that require the absence of fear, then you should wait until you are ready to do then naturally without fear, rather than trying to remove the fear just so you can do them. that's what i think anyway.  

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[jilola]

Good points.
But nobody really ever loses all fear. The thing we learn is to control it and use it to our advantage like Kakkarot pointed out.
What I was referring to about knowing the difference is that the better you get at controlling the feelings the finer the line becomes between staying in tthe situation and leaving it. In other words one has to find a way of taking the next step to resolving the feelings intuitively.
I've found this a bit hard on occasion probably due to a work related handicap of trying to reason things too much.

As for losing all sense of fear. Bad move in my opinion. It would be like a mine sweeper without the equipment - take a step and count attached body parts. And besides life without a little controlled fear would be so much less interesting.

Any pointers to pruning too muc reason out of my head? http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>

Jouni

[sahlyn]

The very last sentence of my last post where I said
"but I also very much see how fear in any state would be a hinderence to any serious spiritual development"  was not only contradictory to what I was stating in the rest of my post (that fear would best be accepted, understood and worked with to your advantage) but It is a concept that I see only as a probability (not a set belief) based on my current grasp of understanding on the concept of 'enlightenment' (which is not based on personal experience).
With the words 'serious spiritual development'  I was refering to the very ultimate and complete state of 'enlightenment' by no means anything before that.
Just thought I'd clarify

But still I'm open to the possibility of countless other possibilities. I dont think this is a topic that could ever reach any valid conclusion. Reason being that -and this may sound like a stupid question to some- how does one know exactly when they are experiencing fear? or another way of puting it; where does fear end and something ellse begin?. ie 'hope', 'anticipation', 'concern'. There seems to be an interwindining interrelation amongst these and many other subjective states

Fear is a category built up of many sub-categories, some leaning towards negative and some towards positive. Maybe when we are talking about the idea of removing fear, it could be seen as the removing of the negative aspects of fear (the types that make you act stupidly and irrationally) whilst embracing only the positive (the type that kicks you in the arse and makes you really stop and think, or gives you a surge of energy which can be used in a positive way, as kakkarot put it)

Do you think the world would fall apart if only the negative aspects of fear where removed?

keep the thoughts comming http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

oxxxx(:::::::::::::::::>
'may we learn to be nothing, may we learn to be everything'

[distant bell]

Fear is a security reflex of the mind- in stead of standing looking at the lion
we get afraid and run away. This has it´s obvouis positive effects. But then again, if one has a quik and rational mind, it should be possible to come to these conlusions without fear. Fear should only be a indicator that there is a possible danger- and if the danger dosn´t seem to close, the best thing is to examine it rationally. For in the end fear is only another refelx- just like blinking or ducking when something comse in your direction.


Frater Felix

--Low is the law- Love under will--

[kakkarot]

my experience shows me that fear is a very valuable tool for keeping someone alive.

i have been robbed twice in my life; both times i knew it was going to happen; both times i let it happen. the first time i let it happen cause they only got three bucks or so and they were being pretty nice about it up until they were running away and one of them yelled "If you tell anybody, you're dead". that made me angry: here i was being a nice guy and letting them have my money (which they needed so badly, they said) and yet they still have to threaten me.

the second time i was robbed, as soon as the guy sat next to me i knew that if i were to fight him i would loose.

it is my fear that lets me know when i am in a situation that i can't handle; when i should run the frag away. so fear is a good thing, when it doesn't get out of hand.

on a side note: another experience i had with fear. i was walking along a C-Train station bridge one day (about a month ago), minding my own business, when i see a group of "thug" type people in a group on one side of the bridge. i haven't trained in the martial arts for a year, and haven't had much energy for even longer than that. so i deigned to just try to remain inconspicuous and non-threatening as i passed them. but, before i even got to them, i passed another kid who didn't look like a "thug" type. as i passed this kid, my spirit sent a feeling of complete fear and terror through my body that almost made me stop moving. i looked closer at the kid and noted his feeling (though not too closely lest he notice me). i could tell immediately that, if he wasn't already, that kid could be a murderer without compunction if he so choose to be. even if i was at my best fighting condition and had as much energy as i was ever used to, i would still have the disadvantage if i were to fight him, that's how powerful he was. and as i was walking along, he turned and started walking in the same direction i was; in fact, he was paralelling me. i was scared, even though i knew that he hadn't taken notice of me. he joined that group of thugs and i just kept walking thanking God that he hadn't taken note of me. that is the only time a human being has ever been able to scare me just by walking near them.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[Josh Redstone]

Fear, like so many of you before me have said, helps to keep us alive. Dont let it controll you in situaltions when you know you have nothing to fear.
I used to have a fear of violent weather. This was born out of me being right all the time. After a paranoid sit in my room, a Tornado somewhere would follow, or a violent storm. I dont know where this ability came from, and I havent been in a situaltion like that for almost 8 years now. I'm 16 now.
I'm sort of glad, and I was young, but I had nothing to be afraid of, and this phobia lead to me having few friends, missing school and becoming quite antisocial.
Eventually I saught to learn about my fear, and I never let it controll me again.
Dont let your ever fear even begin to take controll of you. Its one of the worst things that can happen to you.

[Fenris]

Fear acts as a vital self preservation tool. But there is perhaps no greater poison to humanity.

Fear leads to fights and war.
Fear stands in the way of following our dreams
Fear distracts us
Fear creats negative thoughts, and the lore of sympathetic attraction will bring like to like.
Fear is often what makes people fail when they are capable of success

Many works of mind and magic require the absence of fear in ones mind and complete confidence. But is mankind really capable of fully removing fear from his thinking? Can this really be done? With common sence fully replacing fear as the main self preservation tool. And for those who follow the quest of 'becoming more than human' do you consider the removal of fear from our minds a vital step of self evolution?


Best regards David

Veni Vidi Vici