Karma: Truth or Dogma?

[jilola]

I don't agree with the traditional definition of karma.
It's not about punishment or reward because like you said it would be pointless.

I view karma as the current set of lessons we are to learn in a lifetime. When we do things properly and learn or make a good effort at same the load of lessons gets smaller and our life get that much easier. When we do exceedingly well we may learn something we were going to hgave to learn in a following lifetime thus we'll make that life so much easier (== good trad. karma)

When we slack around and don't get withthe program we dont learn the lessons and have to do them again in th enext life, in addition to the ones we were going to do in any case. This will be a Bad Thing(tm) because there will be so much more to work through (== bad trad. karma)

The resulting change (easier vs. more difficult) can be seen as a reward and punishment system but that's only wihtin our physical context.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[kakkarot]

i agree completely mcarthur.

which is why i believe that "what goes around comes around" is a more appropriate way of looking at life; not because it just DOES, but because the attitudes you show to others, the actions you perform, the way that you do it, etc will make others treat you in much the same way that you treat them - hence, what goes around (what you do to others...) comes around (...they do back to you).

~kakkarot

[Fat_Turkey]

Well I think karma is a lot like sin. Both concepts can have a truth to them, both concepts have many different ideas on the truth, and the generalisation of the truth is just a dogmatic approach that is retarded in my eyes. I mean it's like the Christians (no offense) run around preaching "God is love, God is happy. But make him mad, he'll chop your chappy."

It just doesn't make sense. I do have an idea on karma but I gotta go to dinner now.

Later
-FT

[James S]

The way I think about Karma at the moment is basically it is a word that gets used a lot, usually as an excuse. From that point I don't really believe in Karma as such, I believe in cause and effect.

Good things happen and bad things happen, and how you let them affect you is your choice. You can learn from each, or you can either sit and think either you just got lucky, or the world is against you.

If you go around dishing out a lot of unpleasantness to people (cause) they will probably be unpleasant back to you (effect). If something bad happens to you out of the blue, well, sometimes excrement happens! However when excrement does happen, it could just be the effect of a cause unknown. It's entirely up to your perspective, your choice, as to how your going to deal with it. Is the glass half empty or half full (or is the glass twice as big as it should be)? However, if you make a habit of being pleasant, and doing good things for others, that will come back to you in good ways. Again - cause and effect that you have some control over.

I think I just went to some length to pretty much repeat what Kakkarot said.

I get a little irritated when people start blaming things on Karma, instead of taking responsibility for their own lives. In that way I see it as being like other religious dogmas that get used as scapegoats.

James.

[goingslow]

I think Karma is very complicated and not about "you have this attitude someone has the attitude back".  I think in the grand scheme its not as simple as that.

Karma isnt some type of police force as some make it out to be.  But saying you believe something is karma most times isn't making excuses.  If you go through a really trying time in your life it sometimes help to believe its for a reason.  

I think people sometimes start saying things saying what their definition is in a context where a lot dont understand.  Wouldnt you need to know if we're talking about neg attacks, or starting off this life as a child with no legs.. etc.  It plays a complex role which isnt simple.  I never say "thats karma" or "karma will make you see you're wrong" because I know its complex.  On the other hand I dont try to say karma is what goes around comes around in this life because often a person dies and nothing came back around.  then what?
Its happened with many evil people...they lived lives of luxury..

I am guessing but not sure Mcarthur is sort of talking about in the context of negs and evil beings.  I read it as saying its crazy to think negative beings are only enforcing karma because often people dont deserve it.  At least in that post.  I think thats true in some ways but again its too complicated to say it is karma or it isnt.  You can only guess.  But judging from the way certain people go through a lot of torment then come out of it enlightened and spiritual maybe there is some truth to it.  

[goingslow]

One more thing I read people saying It isn't about punishment or reward its about cause and effect.  That isn't saying karma is anything different.. its the reasons why it happens.  I think few think its about punishment.  Howerver, if you're a rapist and murderer and you have lessons to learn they might be hard lessons.  Whether you chose to see that as punishment or a lesson is up to you.  Its still cause and effect etc..

I see a lot of arguing over terms that have the same effect.  Cause and effect to some is punishment and rewards.  Karma stays the same in these two definitions.  Its more the reason why its there.  Lessons learned even if they're hard lessons or "learning a lesson" from punishment is how you look at it.  Its not a case for or against karma to argue if its punishment or cause and effect.

[jilola]

quote:I see a lot of arguing over terms that have the same effect. Cause and effect to some is punishment and rewards. Karma stays the same in these two definitions. Its more the reason why its there. Lessons learned even if they're hard lessons or "learning a lesson" from punishment is how you look at it. Its not a case for or against karma to argue if its punishment or cause and effect.

Not quite so, imho. Punishment is that no matter how one views it. Lessons can be a punishment only if we choose to make it so.

regarding the karma based on action I suggest that not all actions are karmically significant. Most of the things we do have no spiritual relevance at all. It's the few junctures inour lives where we need to pay attention to the consequences in the spiritual domain.
The challenge is to spot them before stepping into doodoo.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[jilola]

My view is that everyone, and I mean Buddha, Allah, xtian God, Zeus whatever and whoever, are subject to the same action-consequence as everyone else.  
The core of the matter is, imho, that spiritually enlightened people are less likely to trip and make the karmically bad choice. In fact, I maintain that the further enlightened a person is the more significant and dire the results of an act become. You would be expected to know and perform better.

What I attempted to say by "not all actions are karmically signicifant" is that for the most part our actions are totally meaningless in a spiritual context. But at times there are situations where our choice and behaviour tip the balance and are significant. The further one is on the spiritual path the more one's actions in those situations matter.

To summarize, there is no escape from personal responsibility of one's actions and choices. Keep that in mind and the path becomes much easier to handle.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[jilola]

I believe that responsibility of one's actions is an absolute.
It doesn't matter why you do something or what your intentions may be. You do the act, you face the consequences.

If you allow someone to dodge responsibility because of, say, good intentions then we end up with the sword baptisms all over again.
And what is selflessness? "I'm only beating you up because it's for your own good" type comes easily to mind.
Killing someone in a detached sort of way doesn't really cut it either.

So apparently the issue is not the manner in which something is done but the deed itself.

Do the deed and pay the fee.

Your mileage may vary.


2cents & L&L
jouni

[McArthur]

On the subject of Karma i think too many people repeat whatever dogma they have read without knowing for certain that it is correct. Would it be Just for society to punish someone without explaining why the person is being punished? Even dogs are house trained by rubbing their noses in their own excrement so they know why they are being punished. Looking at it this way then it seems most peoples' view of what Karma, or "Universal Law" is, is Unjust. And i don't believe God to be unjust.

Surely Divine Justice would not randomly give out punishments for things that happened maybe in a previous lifetime? Say if my dog excrement on the carpet and a year later i punished him for it. Would the dog know what the hell he was being punished for and would i be Just in doing so? I don't think so.

What is the general reason society uses punishments such as prison? It is supposed to be a deterrant to stop people from doing something society defines as wrong or bad. i.e. Our Earthly form of Justice or "Karma". But unless the "wrong" is pointed to while giving out the punishment then it is no longer a deterrant, or Just, and becomes useless. So the current definition of Karma held by most is, in my opinion, useless.


Look at all the evil that goes on this world without punishment. Do you really believe that is all "Karma"? That evil is allowed to happen as punishment for peoples' past Karma? I sure as hell don't.

When we kill and eat a cow is it because the cow has bad karma or because we are its natural Predators?

We live in a Predatorial Universe. I think Carlos Castaneda would agree with me that maybe the idea of "Karma" was provided by our own predators he calls "The Flyers". (*note)

The idea of karma inserts into our minds that, "Oh maybe its karma and i deserve this pain and suffering so i may as well just accept this suffering without a fight." This is so like what negs try to get their victims to believe its absolutely unreal.

But hey, who am i to disagree with all those Teachers and Masters who have taught us all about Karma? Silly little me.

Jesus said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." He did not say, "Forgive them once they have been punished even though they know not what they do."

*note:
http://www.foxfireinstitute.com/review_matrix.htm

He goes on to explain that, "the predators have given us our system of beliefs, our ideas of good and evil, our social mores. They are the ones who set up our hopes and expectations and dreams of success or failure. They have given us covetousness, greed, and cowardice. It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary, and egomaniacal. . . In order to keep us obedient and meek and weak the predators engaged themselves in a stupendous maneuver. .  .They gave us their mind.  . . Through the mind, which, after all, is their mind, the predators inject into the lives of human beings whatever is convenient for them."




In Castaneda's final work, don Juan Matus introduces Carlos to the sorcerers' "topic of topics": the existence of a dark predatorial force that has enslaved humanity, in order to farm it as a food source. This force, or entity, he calls the flyer, describing it as "a predator that came from the depths of the cosmos and took over the rule of our lives. Human beings are its prisoners. The predator is our lord and master. It has rendered us docile, helpless. . . They took us over because we were food for them and they squeeze us mercilessly because we are their sustenance. Just as we rear chickens in chicken coops, gallineros, the predators rear us in human coops, humaneros."



Discuss.