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Author Topic: Magic and Christianity  (Read 5863 times)
Kristen
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« on: July 22, 2002, 04:59:44 »

Hi Kakkarot -

Magick and Christianity - confusing mix given or modern historical understanding - especially as it may be mixed with Puritanism, Calvinism, Protestantism... etc.... if that is one's heritage!  But... to be overly simple, the bible is full of references to practice of kabbalistic magick.   The jealous reference I think (IMO) has to do with securing human spiritual endeavor in the One.... the one God.  The names of God and the Archangles, the Angels and so on vary depending on the sphere of manifestation of the force of God and the presidency over the emination of God-force.  It has to be anchored in the One.   Moses and Aaron were mages.  So was Jesus.  In the new testament, the letters of the apostles contain pieces of boilerplate for "fools"

Even fools can tread the path to salvation.  The apostles were very familiar with the tree of life..... with the kaballah.  Christianity derives its roots from Judiasm.  

take care,

Kristen : )

 
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TamiaStar
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2002, 20:12:44 »

Hi.... If you feel that what you are doing is wrong, then don't mess with it.. You can twist and turn and find loopholes all you want but, when it comes down to it, its all about how you feel... what is right and wrong in your mind...If you have a gut feeling that magick is not for you, maybe its not.. If you have to question yourself, then maybe you should reconsider what it is that "God" really wants...Either you take the "word" of God literally or you find a way to interpret it to fit your needs...Do you really need to justify your use of magick??
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2002, 20:12:44 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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kakkarot
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2002, 20:27:44 »

actually moses, aaron, and jesus (as well as all the other prophets) were not mages. according to the bible, they did not do the "works", Jehovah did.

what do you mean by "pieces of boilerplate for "fools""?

so, are you trying to say that according to the bible, Jehovah does not look down upon the practice of magic?

btw: i just looked up the verses i was looking at and they don't say magician, they say sorcerer (Malachi 3:5  Revelation 21:8  Revelation 22:15. you can go to http://bible.com/bibles.html to read the verses), but then what is the difference?

now i am really confused about it.

~kakkarot

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kakkarot
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2002, 20:37:06 »

i don't use magic regularily (i have only cast one spell in my life), but i have a friend who uses magic and who still calls himself a christian. plus, another friend of mine (who can see demons and spirits) told me how when she procurred her friend's book on magic (the friend gave it willingly), she was burning it and the flames were fanning out from the fire and trying to burn her (even as she walked around the fire, the shoots of flame followed her movement). she told me that using magic books opens portals where demons can come through (now, she didn't say ALL magic books do this, or that magic books were the only ones that do this. but she didn't say SOME either).

so anyone got any ideas on this?

~kakkarot

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IlmariL
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2002, 00:10:33 »

Many of the magicians of eg. medieval times (John Dee as a prime example) were christians, and their magic of the sort that relied on God (the Jehovah one). From what I've understood, many of their practices were forms of old Kabbalistic magic, which in turn was totally based on Jehovah. Combined with long prayers to God, Dee invoked angels and angelic entities (or so is claimed) to do his bidding, and I got the impression there was direct relation to God in all he did.
The source of the practices of the time seems to have been Lemegeton, or the Key(s) of Solomon, and other writings based on them. The mentioned book were received by king Solomon from God. Solomon himself was a magician, as were many other famous judaic/christian persons, even the other nations of the time knew Solomon because of his magical powers.
From what it seems to me, ceremonial magic based on evocations isn't forbidden from christians, on the contrary it requires great faith. Then again, it is probably possible to invoke other, non-angelic entities. This could be seen forbidden as well as non-recommendable.

 
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2002, 00:10:33 »



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Fenris
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2002, 06:22:34 »

Mr Kakkarot

If you feel that manipulating energy yourself without the assistance of other deities is ok with your god then how about mastering elemental magic as you used in your weather spell. If you believe that Jehovah created the world and nature then do you feel it is ok to use natures forces?

I really have little understanding of Christian ideology but I respect every ones beliefs as being equal as long as they donít hurt anyone. So I hope my ignorance of your beliefs doesnít offend you, but here are some things maybe you could consider (based on my pretty limited understanding of your ways).

If  Jehovah created man with such a complex energy system and depth of mind to manipulate energy how could it be wrong to use it. If he created a universe with elemental energies that can be worked with why should it wrong to do so? Itís like putting a pool in the yard just to scream at your kids for using it - it does not seem to make sense.

All of the commandments about not killing, cheating and stealing are good rules but why would a god with such a concern for people want to limit them so strongly. Man is the master of the elements, with the equal control of the four powers man becomes apart of the fifth element - sprit, the tip of the top point of the pentagram. To stop mankind from being one with the energies of the universe is like clipping the wings of an eagle.

Search your heart and feelings, Iím sure you feel a love from your god and you love him in return. Does the love you feel belong to a deity that would cage your spirit in such a way? That is an honest question; please donít feel Iím trying to manipulate your beliefs. There seem to be lots of different variations of worship for Jehovah so would it be so wrong for you to follow your heart in doing it how you feel makes sense? The people who have done this in the past where no better then you. If I were you Id follow my heart.

Best regards

David


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James S
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2002, 21:52:32 »

This is a topic close to my heart!

Some years ago a friend of mine was "asked to leave" the church we attended at the time because she found she had been gifted with clairvoyancy. She made the mistake of telling the Pastor this.

Some years later I was "prayed over" by senior members of the church because I had expressed an interest in telepathy, telekinesis, and was invesigating the properties of crystals.

Having had my nose put out of joint by this seemingly narrow-minded view of the church I sat and prayed long and deep and spoke with God on the subject. He made it quite clear to me that He had no problem with it as long as my intentions were good - that these gifts would be used in love, and to help  others. Fair enough!

Christians say believe all of the Bible or none of it. I strongly disagree! I believe the words spoken by Jesus as being the truth of god. I also believe that a lot of what was written in both the Old & New testaments are just the words of men - men with prejudices and superstitions. There is also a lot of the bible itself that had been modified over the years, even whole books removed, because they have offended the views of the church leaders of the time. This was rife during the middle ages and renaissance times, when the Church weilded a lot of power.

Lets put a few things in perspective and tell me if you don't see some inconsistencies. From the Book of Acts the Gifts of the Spirit are listed. What do they equate to in other terms:

Gift of prophecy = clairvoyance
Gift of healing = psychic or faith healing
Gift of miracles = telekinesis
Gift of wisdom = spirit guides
Gift of tounges = mediumship

Having spent the most part of the last 16 years in Christian churches I've found a great deal of narow-mindedness and even hatred towards anything that is of paranormal origin and not sanctioned by the Bible. I trust God, and have faith in His guidence. I don't have faith in the words of men claiming to be writing the word of God, unless it is completely in keeping with what I know of His character, which can mostly be described as kind, loving, caring and TOLERANT!

You'll know when you really tinkle God off, and I'll bet you'll  find you can't. If you are to believe God created all things, including the energy that is in all things, how can he be against practices that use that energy, unless it is used to hurt others. But then Karma has its own concequences.

James S
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kakkarot
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2002, 18:48:31 »

fenris: Mr? sorry, but i don't like people calling me that. i am still just a kid in my own mind and heart. if you feel right about calling me that, then go ahead, but i just don't feel right about people calling me that (hope i am not hurting your feelings).

yes, i do believe that jehovah created all things, including the energies and whatnot, but it is so hard to discern the will of jehovah from just a belief that i "know" his will. i know that to be a christian i am supposed to put my faith in jehovah and he will take care of me. which means that using energy for my own purposes is like saying, " i am not yours, i am still mine".

sorry for the confusingness of my posting, but i am kindof going through a duality of lives being lived (or a triality depending on how you look at it): on one hand a complete christian, devote in everything and "giving" my life completely to jehovah; on the other hand training for my fate which will occur in the future, where i will not be able to give my entire life to jehovah, but to act on my own still along the paths of christian morals; on the third hand (too bad i'm not a mutant or this might be easier  Smiley  ) i am trying to learn how to live a "normal" life (like making friends and dating and stuff) because my fate won't happen for a long time and i have to do something other than training until i get there (like remembering why life is worth having and protecting). my life has been confusing since shortly after i was baptized, when i realized that i understood more about the true christian ways than most people, so i prayed to God for more understanding and i guess i just got to much knowledge. life has never been so basic since then.

ok. i think i have it figured out. i know that Jehovah gave us the ability to use these energies so using them isn't bad, in and of itself. however, i have always had this preconcieved notion that magic is only used by people who use it for personal gain and that their magic is like their god. however, i have also gained some insight into the fact that magic can be strongly linked to doing bad things, and it was my preconcieved notions that prevented me from being able to see that magic can also be used for righteous things (ides' posts got me thinking about this. thanks ides). i had the notion that people use magic for selfish reasons, and what selfish person would use magic towards righteousness? but now i am starting to see that magic is just another force that is used by good people and bad people (unfortunately) and it is the focus of the user that decides if the user is good or bad (just like with anything else).

but there is still the idea that magic is used to control things, rather than working in tandem with the natural ways of the universe(s). i keep getting this picture in my head of someone using magic to "force" an angel to come to him/her and do his/her bidding; i guess i need to change this to a picture of someone using magic to call an angel to ask the angel to do his/her bidding, just as someone would normally call to an angel and ask for help or a service. different medium for the same task. but i guess there are mages out there who use their power to work with the natural ways instead of trying to have control over them.

i think i am starting to get it worked out in my mind. i just needed to put my thoughts out and to get others to help get all the parts of the puzzle together so i could look at them and see how they fit together.

*THANKS EVERYONE*

now i only have to deal with the scriptures about jehovah saying all sorcerers being cast into hell, or something like that  Smiley  . i will pray for understanding and knowledge regarding them.

~kakkarot

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kakkarot
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2002, 19:09:42 »

oh, james: sorry i forgot about you. that's a crappy church; i have heard of other instances like that too. makes me sad to think that supposed christians are so close minded. if their faith was stronger they could challenge their beliefs and really figure out what to keep and what can go (ie all the unscriptural and unfounded biases against the paranormal). (as a side note, there used to be times in my life where i wanted to go into such churches and just start calling them hypocrites and stuff, but when i asked God to give me the authority and power to do so, i was told such worldly affairs was none of my business, and even if it were God would take care of those who were using his name in vain himself, not me.)

the congregation i am going to right now has had some "miracle healing" as the preacher put it (i didn't witness it though), but the congregation is still really conservative in their beliefs and traditions; shows they are open minded enough to know that good things are good things, whether the good thing came from God or not.

sorry for being a pain, but i want to analyze this (yeah, i know you were only drawing similarities rather than saying they were the same thing, so please don't feel bad that i am doing this? please?)

"Gift of prophecy = clairvoyance"
well, not quite. clairvoyance is seeing things without using your physical eyes. prophecy is knowing about the future (and in the case of the prophets of old, having the job of telling people about jehovah's will for those particular people. and i don't think most of the prophets thought of it as a gift Cheesy  )

"Gift of healing = psychic or faith healing"
yeah. pretty much the same. even the gift of healing

"Gift of miracles = telekinesis"
actually miracles involved way more than just moving things. it including doing anything that was so blatantly impossible that people had to believe it was coming from the power of God. actually, i think magic would be a closer parallel, since you can do some pretty amazing things with it and fake people into believing that you are from god, or even a god.

"Gift of wisdom = spirit guides"
wisdom being internal and spirit guide being external, and spirit guides can do other things, like point things out. wisdom is just an understanding.

"Gift of tounges = mediumship"
i take mediumship to be like having spiritual beings talk through you (hence you being the medium), but the gift of tounges was being able to talk and having everybody, no matter their language, being able to understand your words (though not neccessarily your message  Smiley  ).

thanks for the paralleling james, hopefully others will also get some insight from them.

"You'll know when you really tinkle God off, and I'll bet you'll find you can't". oh i have. it wasn't easy, but i did. it wasn't pretty either. but he was still very tolerant of me (rather than blasting me into itty bitty pieces immediatly) because, i guess, he understood that the way i was feeling at that time was due to the training he is putting me through (he didn't let me know about this particular training until a long time after it started), and because he most likely knew it was gonna happen since way before my birth. but, yeah, i really don't recommend it.

~kakkarot

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Fenris
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2002, 02:57:50 »

Hi Kakkarot

"Mr? sorry, but i don't like people calling me that. i am still just a kid in my own mind and heart. if you feel right about calling me that, then go ahead, but i just don't feel right about people calling me that (hope i am not hurting your feelings)."

You see thats just me being hyperactive, Im hyper quit a lot actually. Its easy to  mistake my stpidity with formality! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

regards

David

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James S
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2002, 08:11:11 »

Hi Kakkarot,

Yep, you've got some good points about my comparisons. I know they're pretty rough, but there are similar elements on either side. I've actually been to a number of churches that think the same way about non-biblical gifts. Mind you, they've all been Assemblies of God  - very charismatic, fired up our-way-is-the-only-way smite demons and fill everyone with the holy spirit wether they like it or not churches. They do tend to get a bit extreme.

I attended a service once at the church that I first went to (a much more laid back but without being too conservative church that I actually quite enjoyed) where a visiting minister was healing people. this guy was very cool calm and easy going. He didn't dance around waving his hands and shouting. He just sat with the person, prayed quietly, and got results.

One lady in the congregation went up for healing. she had odd length legs and suffered terrible back pains as a result. I watch this minister sit her down in a chair with her back straight against the chair's back, lift her feet up and just rest her heels in the open palms of his hands. He exerted absolutely no force (you could see by the way his hands were), didn't push or pull on her legs at all, but just quietly prayed. Along with the whole congregation I watched in utter amazement as one leg, within a few seconds, grew to the same length as the other. It was originally out by a good few inches. I saw him repeat this to another person with the same condition.

I was skeptical of his claims at first, but this really happened. I, and 50 others all can't doubt what we saw. He healed many others, but mostly of internal ailments, so we couldn't see the effects.

This minister, and those like him,  I believe are what it's all about, not the noise and hype of the "look at me" preachers. I can't really see the difference between a healer or worker of miracles who calls themself a christian, and one who calls themself a spiritualist, or a shaman. If they use their gifts for the benifit of others, I believe God is happy with them.

As for tinkling god off, I think I know what you mean. It's like being clouted over the head with a big lump of wood and being told to stop screwing around, get up and pay attention. A friend of mine referred to it as being hit by God's bit of 4X2. I'm not sure if "a bit of 4X2" is strictly an aussie term, but it refers to 4" by 2" building timber. You know, the kind that hurts!!

Anyway, Kakkarot, it's really good to hear from someone else who believes in and has faith in God, can be counted as being a christian, and is open to the fact that God probably does work in ways other than what is written in the Bible. Keep looking, questioning things, and experiencing things. I don't believe God meant us to be mindless sheep just following one way of thinking because we're told we should.

All the best,


James S
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chohan
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2002, 21:17:25 »

quote:
Originally posted by kakkarot:

actually moses, aaron, and jesus (as well as all the other prophets) were not mages. according to the bible, they did not do the "works", Jehovah did.




  Kakkarot - Jehovah is a transliteration of the Sacred Name YHVH as I'm sure you are aware. My experiences (catch basket method) have led me to accept that he is a very personal G-D. Perhaps you will find these 2 links as interesting as I have. The first deals with the Sacred Name and the second deals with Judaism and Christianity.

   http://www.revelations.org.za/NotesS-Name.htm

   http://www.nephos.com/who_is_the_church.htm
 
   As for magic... if you have faith in Jehovah and Messiah then imho I feel you are barking up the wrong tree. If Moses, Elijah and Yeshua were magicians then Franz Bardon is my mom.

My best to you,
cho


 
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kakkarot
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2002, 18:54:20 »

fenris: well at least i didn't mistake your "stpidity" with stupidity  :p  . just kidding.


james: that's a nice story to hear (about the healer). yeah, in the bible it says that any church that helps widows and gives to the poor is a church of the Christ, so i guess you could also take that to mean that any person who helps others is also a goodly and Godly person, no matter how they help others (1 corinthians 13:1-13 talks about loving others when you help them).

"This minister, and those like him, I believe are what it's all about, not the noise and hype of the "look at me" preachers." this is the best way i have never yet been able to put it  Wink  . i knew this concept in my head, but i was having trouble putting it into words that were completely true. thanks.

4x2? we call them 2x4's up here  Smiley  . yeah they hurt. but it more ended up being that everything in my life just went to sh*t and i could feel a constant feeling of anger and disappointment. until i backed down from my position, at which point everything went to normal again.


chohan: "As for magic... if you have faith in Jehovah and Messiah then imho I feel you are barking up the wrong tree. If Moses, Elijah and Yeshua were magicians then Franz Bardon is my mom." this is kind of confusing. in the first sentence, you seem to be saying that god is a hoax, and in the next you are saying that people-who-say moses and elijah and yeshua were fakes are wrong. am i reading this right?

~kakkarot

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Ides315
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2002, 02:41:57 »

Hi, all.

Late comer here, but I needed to put my 2 cents in. Glad I gave you something to chew on kakkarot. In my opinion you are on the right track, I would not do an invocation that demanded anything of an angelic being, and the only purpose I would have for summoning a demon would be to destroy, or contain it (so it could cause no harm).

(My opinion) the ability to work magick (include almost all paranormal here) was one of the parts in being created in God's image. Using it racks up you karma quicker than most mundane acts. I believe Jesus was the greatest "magician" ever, primarily because of his "direct" connection with divinity. He stated that he had companies of angels at his call. There are magick groups that pursue the teachings of Jesus. Pope's have had the nickname "XXXXX the magician". The problem with humans (which you perceived early kakkarot) is that we are often mislead into following desire, or ego and not using magick for positive things. If one does not reach a proper spiritual balance before you gain to much "magickal" knowledge, you are more easily corrupted by your own power.

The sad thing is evil has also perverted parts of this, and is always looking for ways to assail you. Ceremonial magicains say (Crowley I believe) that "teach a man magick so he can kill, and by the time he is powerful enough, he will know better". The thing is, a lot of systems do not nurture that connection with divinity, and people never figure out the true debts for their actions. I have read satanists beliefs that there is only one time around for the soul, and death is eternal. They think that the pact they have made for power puts them on the wining side.

I view most of the things to deter people from magick are there for people that have not reached a point where they can truly tell good from evil.

Anyway, good topic.

Take care, all

 
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chohan
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2002, 13:02:41 »

quote:
Originally posted by kakkarot:

chohan: "As for magic... if you have faith in Jehovah and Messiah then imho I feel you are barking up the wrong tree. If Moses, Elijah and Yeshua were magicians then Franz Bardon is my mom." this is kind of confusing. in the first sentence, you seem to be saying that god is a hoax, and in the next you are saying that people-who-say moses and elijah and yeshua were fakes are wrong. am i reading this right?




  kakkarot - my apologies for the confusion, bad sentence structure on my part. Moses and Elijah are prophets of Yahweh both of which he used to cause great embarrassment to the magicians. It's true the magicians of Egypt managed to match some of Yahweh's works but only until Yahweh became bored with the contest.

  This same Yahweh (Most High God/Creator of All) took on flesh as the man Yeshua. The NT tells us He laid aside His heavenly privileges(advantage). Yeshua didn't operate as God, He operated as a prophet under the Abrahamic Covenant with the fullness of the Spirit. He played by the rules because He MADE the rules. Yeshua used His own word to resist His temptation by Satan in the wilderness and I believe it was true temptation to His humanity. Later He called Satan the 'prince of this world' and at other places in the NT Satan is referred to as 'Prince of the power of the air' and the 'god of this world'. That's quite plain if we turn on the TV and watch the world news for 30 minutes.

  Paul wrote, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. "

Speaking of the mystery he said, "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. "   This is not referring to human princes. So why would they not have crucified Him? They didn't understand what was happening when Yeshua said "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up."
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

 The result from an authority standpoint: Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 He delegated this authority to his body (those who believe and follow him). He gave us power of attorney. You have His name, His blood and His word. If someone is not a believer then I say learn all the magic you can because you definately need it to defend yourself but I'm not going to trade my two-edged sword for a pocket knife.

My best to you,
cho





 
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2002, 19:57:55 »

thanks chohan, that's much clearer. and thanks ides, too, for your post.

great thoughts and discussion, guys. and i think i am done with this thread, so if anyone wants to use it to talk about something regarding magic and christianity (peeves, ideas, thoughts, opinions, personal experiences or practices, etc), GO AHEAD! have fun.

~kakkarot

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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2002, 23:11:45 »

(very long. plus, whenever i use the word God, please understand that i mean Jehovah, unless otherwise noted. if confused, please ask. thank you.)
ok, so those two words don't normally go together in most circles of conversation, but the point of this thread (i'm hoping) is to find out why, and to maybe even have the two occuring side by side.

now, i am going to start by giving some thoughts that i have had regarding the (non)relationship between magic and christianity, and then by asking you guys your thoughts on them. hopefully we will be able to figure out something that i am slowly coming to the conclusion may be true, though ironic. (and it doesn't matter which spelling you use, i am talking about the magic that can change the physical world, not just trick people into thinking that things happen)

1) "magic is against the will of God." it is written in the bible that people who practice magic will go to hell. however, i have read one book (Divine Magic, forgot author) which says the word magician (and its renditions) were mis-translated in the King James version of the bible because mr james didn't like magic and it was a way for the printers of the bible to score brownie points (paraphrasing). i have done some research into this and found out that any time in the english that the word magician comes up, it means magistrate (one who is wise; a ruler; etc). but, i am no greek major (geek major, yes.  :p  ), so can anyone out there comment on this?

2) magic is traditionally related to calling upon other gods and beings to do the actual manipulation of the physical world (and those people then worship those gods for their greatness). and looking at that, it is easy to see why Jehovah, being the "jealous God" that he is, wouldn't like people practicing magic. however, in today's age, the methods to magic are being changed. it is becoming ever more popular for people to no longer try to invoke other beings when working magic, but instead use their own power/energy and look inward when trying to do the difficult of changing things. so in this light, is it feasable that Jehovah would allow the use of such magic?

3) i use chi. it is a form of energy. using chi i can sometimes affect the physical (usually the biological is easier) just as someone using magic can. but i am pretty sure that it was Jehovah who led me to the path that showed me about energy and other "paranormal/supernatural" things. and i know that Jehovah has no problem with me using chi. (in fact a friend of mine told me that Jehovah is the one who gave her the ability to use chi, and the amount of power she has.) also, the one time that i cast a magic spell, i invoked certain elements of nature to do what i told them to do. i was not treating them like they were dieties, but as "beings" (maybe essences would be a better word here) of equal status. the entire time i did the spell, i got the feeling that, while Jehovah wasn't displeased with what i was doing, Jehovah was keeping a close eye on me to make sure i didn't do anything he didn't like. so if magic is just manipulating energy (either a different form of energy, or the same form in a different way), then how could Jehovah have a problem with it when he doesn't have a problem with chi?


now, when i was fourteen (or maybe fifteen) i was given a series of five visions over a few months (i am pretty sure it was by Jehovah considering the beginning part of the first vision) that showed a war that would be happening in my lifetime. not just any war though, but a war against demons (i think) that could destroy all of humanity. if this were so, then wouldn't it be reasonable that powerful people using magic could help just as much in the protection of the human race as powerful people using chi, or smart people using technology? i mean, war is war right? especially when one side is trying for genocide. (i seriously hope those visions were just delusions, but my memories all have a mental tag saying that they really were visions.)

CONCLUSION: so if magic is just the manipulation of energy, just like chi, and when one practices magic without resorting to using worshipped beings, then is it really so "damning" that a christian would use magic?

thanks in advance to all who reply.

~kakkarot

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