News:

Welcome to the Astral Pulse 2.0!

If you're looking for your Journal, I've created a central sub forum for them here: https://www.astralpulse.com/forums/dream-and-projection-journals/



Christian Magicians or Magick

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

T_Kman0610

well just do your magic under gods word, like the four corners spell, you can do that one under gods rule. i dont know how to do it but im sure there is a book that tells how to do it.
"Only those who have dared to let go can dare to reenter." - Meister Eckhart

Tisha

Welcome to the Forums, ChristianMagick,

I was once so foolish as to call myself a "Christian Witch" (ah, I was young then).  I knew the reality of magic, and was able to do things that could only be described as magical.  But I was SO terrified of the supposed ramifications (hellfire, damnation, etc.) of abandoning my Christian Faith that I just couldn't bring myself to lose the "Christian" moniker.  Plus, I've always had a soft spot in my heart for (the real) Jesus.

But something happened.  The deeper I went, and the more I learned and understood about magic and the nature of the Divine, the less Christian I became.  I didn't love Jesus any less, but I became more wild, more "pagan," more connected to the rhythms of the earth, the elementals, the spirits, etc. etc.  I also saw how Christianity estranged humanity from the natural world, including other humans.  I saw the evil face of Christianity. I watched the horrors. I saw what it did to women.  I saw how through Christianity, people lost their understanding of the immanence of the Divine.

One day, I understood both the point and the pointlessness of Organized Religion, and gave up labels entirely.  It was a brave, brave day that I finally realized I was no longer a Christian.  I still love Jesus, and believe he's helping us from the astral realms. But I am horrified by Christian dogma and reject it, almost in its entirety.

So, if you hold your Christianity dear - - and I can tell from your name that you do - -  think hard before you delve into magic or mysticism of any kind.  You might just lose your faith. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing.  But you might.
Tisha

ChristianMagick

I guess you are Right I shouldnt call my self a christian Witch but its just something I can call myself  right now i guess. I do go to church and believe in God and I dont agree with alot of Dogma and what Christian people do and how they judge and stuff. I dont ever think i loose my faith in Jesus but maybe The Christian Church. Jesus will always be in my heart, And i know He helps me in everything i do.

  Thank You

Dragon_Warrior

[:D][:D][:D] Yeah i'm a Christian as well, and i'm a Wizard/ Mage.
Just as long as you don't worship the devil then your cool.

Tisha

I suppose you have plenty of time to work it out for yourselves.  After all, it took me years to get where I am today; I can't well expect you to change your approach to magic based upon one post on a Forum!  

Just remember that even your so-called "good" spells are wrong if they are done without the consent of all parties involved.  Think hard about that the next time you try to cast something.  

I remember my school years . . . the temptation to use magic to get someone to love me, or to get revenge on a mean person.  All this is "black" magic.  Do it if you must, but don't be surprised if the consequences slap you in the head.  The only "good" and relatively safe magic you should be working on right now is improving yourself, including doing well in school.

Ah, well, peace to you all, and Blessed Be.
Tisha

Dragon_Warrior

good advice, Tisha. I'll keep that in mind.

Celeste


 Tisha has good advice to work on yourself first and foremost. The true path to enlightenment, magic or mysticism by true Initiates has always been about the work of self-transformation. Those who's motives are for power,glory or greed will only be allowed to go so far.  
 You might want to look up the name Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov on a search engine & see what you find.
Good luck on your journey!
 celeste

kakkarot

christian magic? magic is a force which pervades the universe, one that can be shaped by human will. christianity is a choice (and you HAVE to choose to be a christian to be a christian, since it's pretty difficult to actually follow God or Jesus without choosing to [|)]) to live a certain way.

imo, if you want to learn about magic and still be a christian, then do that. magic sometimes uses "gods" and spirits and whatnot, but in the end, it's just a force with no actual ties to any being (the use of other beings can help a person cast magic, but it is not neccessary).

and most likely, there will come a time in your journey where you will see the christian *religion* for the crap that it is, but please remember that real christianity is a choice to live a better life, not a doctrine or dogma that has to be followed. Christians live by the grace of God, not by any law [:)] (though that one sentence holds a very subtle but important secret which takes quite a while to fully understand[|)]).

~kakkarot

Fenris

Perhaps the more we grow as spiritual beings and the more we learn about how the universe works, be that via any balanced path, the more we need to pull apart our beliefs. To be to the point you will find that having restrictive beliefs will hinder your ability to understand your studies in magic, and your spiritual growth. If you stay flexible with your beliefs and are comfortable with questioning them you can adapt to new ideas as you learn, and easily change your beliefs without changing course from your goal.

If you have rigid beliefs the more knowledge you take in the more you need to twist and distort your beliefs to accommodate them. You end up with 'Christian Witches' and people with beliefs totally alien to Christianity still calling themselves Christian and even redefining Christianity stating what 'real Christianity' is. This sort of distortion is not healthy, and you will only progress so far, and grow so much with unbalanced restrictive beliefs. In one of Robert Bruce's articles (The Catch Basket Concept) he talks about writing down all of the spiritual/magical beliefs you have, then writing down the ones you know are true, you have proved are true. If these lists are not the same length perhaps think about why you believe in the ones you don't know are true? Perhaps abandon them all together and see how this changes your understanding of new ideas.

Kind regards
David.

Aristoles

I have a non-religious view on magic,so religion doesnt bother me at all.
But if i would live myself into your situation,the bible says that all witchcraft is forbidden.
But what is witchcraft?
Magic at that time was probably alot different than the one that exists now,unless god himself would have said something else.

Dragon_Warrior

I know and it sux... white magic is a kinda christian kinda thing, and its magic. I tried witchcraft once, but it wasn't as great as wizardry. Of course, I still do it for making my chores easier. lol! its cool... anyway the bible has been written over a bigilion times so many things have gotten changed. the devil doesn't give us power, god does.

Gandalf

Hello Iv been studying Christian mysticism and Stuff like that for some time now. Iv been reading the Key of solomon and stuff. But What Is really furstrating is I want to do witchcraft But i dont wanna Say Stuff to like other gods cause im a christian witch .
I wanna know how someone Who beleives in God how can they do magick ? And if anyone in here is familiar of what im talking about , how Can a Christian do magick?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
See ya
Albert


Three points here.
The first is the typical 'bible belt' viewpoint shown above that if you are not Christian then that means you don't believe in God..Wrong! Chistianity in no way has any monopoly over God. Statements like 'if you don't believe in the bible you dont believe in god are so sad, as they indicate a group of people who have never been exposed to any other faith system apart from christianity.

Secondly,
You can believe in other forms of 'god' and still practice magic, although usually, magicians work with various gods depending on the attributes required. All gods are aspect of the 'All', a pantheistic vision; therefore most monotheistic 'Gods' are considered as yet more aspects of the All.. more of the same. however, if you want to just accept one god in the traditional monotheistic sense you  can, it shoudlnt affect the magic, although it might require more work.

However, IMO, if you feel you cannot work with various gods because you feel it is wrong 'from a christian viewpoint' then you are unfit to practice occultism, go back to church!
Sorry, to sound harsh, but its better to be honest here so that you don't end up wasting your own time.

Lastly, I agree with Fenris, that the above post displays a classic example of someone who has started to outgrow their mainstream religion, but is still afraid to let go (due to fear), leading to all kinds of distortions in order to make themselves feel 'still christian', resulting in odd terms like 'Christian witches'.

The two really don't gel, as most Mainstream religions (not just Christianity, but Judaism and Islam too) are opposed  to any kind of manipulation of power for one's own ends,, funny, considering thats what the church does all the time; the reason for the ban is they dont like the idea of people empowering themselves.

This is why there will come a point when the above person will have to ditch their mainstream religion if they want to pursue an occult career. If the inidvidual feels they cannot do that, then their occult career will be severly limited, in fact a waste of time IMO.

Only you can decide!

Douglas

"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Cruel Tendencies

Honestly, this type of response is part of the same problem that brought a conflict to the original poster's mind; a lack of understanding of the Christian religion, and an unwillingness to try to learn about it.  Whether you call yourself a Christian or not, if you're going to present an opinion on it, it should at least be understood for what it is.

<Three points here.
The first is the typical 'bible belt' viewpoint shown above that if you are not Christian then that means you don't believe in God..Wrong! Chistianity in no way has any monopoly over God. Statements like 'if you don't believe in the bible you dont believe in god are so sad, as they indicate a group of people who have never been exposed to any other faith system apart from christianity>

Christianity does not just describe a particular god or gods that people pray to in order to receive favor and success in life.  The goal of the Christian is to bring together the various parts of the of the Self, in order to be a part of the greater Tikkun (repair) of the macrocosm.  To know Christ is to know the Self that was created long before one's incarnation into the world as we know it today.  Christ is not merely a "god" or "spirit" that is worshipped; he is the template of all human beings, and is the force that is tapped into when one is living in the actual moment.

Being a (real) Christian negates the need to practice magick - that is, magick in the sense of rituals in order to fulfill desires (sometimes called sorcery or so-called "low" magick).  It's the restructuring of one's own inner world, so that desires are under the control of the Self.  They're used to not only bring about the manifestation of Works, but they're also used to gauge one's position with God at any given time.  But I digress.

It really is not a simple matter to just say "Christians can't do magick" or "magicians can't be Christian" or whatever else it is that you're trying to state in a nutshell.  It's far more complicated than that.


Paul

Gandalf

This might be the case, but what you are describing is moving pretty far away from what most people recognise as 'Christianity', it is in fact 'christian mysticism', the further you go down this road the less and less recognisible as christianity it will become, until you reach the stage I am talking about, where people still feel they have to attach the christian lable to their mystic explorations in order for them to feel 'safe' and 'still within the rules', even when what they have found only loosely relates to the mainstream religion itself.

Douglas

"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Mustardseed

Hi All
Well....It has been a while since I have talked to you Gandalf. How have you been. I have at times followed your tracks, most of whom led me to the religious section. I sure hope you are well and truly enjoyed our last exchange of ideas.

I do have a comment, both to ChristianMagick as well as Trisha and all you others.

I .............well this is where my typing stopped.......I........it is so hard to put into words. Maybe I should just just spill the beans.. I believe you are walking a dangerous path. I would be carefull what you counsel people to do or believe. The paths people take are very varied , nothing seems to be ridgid. Once one joins or adheres to a school of thought this changes. It seems that you both in varying degrees is is encouraging ChristianMagic to toss overboard his value system.......I am not saying that you are wrong in the desisions YOU have made, I count you both friendly, but....remember the times the days weeks and months you laboured in the spirit to understand to grasp the meaning....leave him to make his choices. I have had the same conflict....I have grappeled with my faith, I have questioned my OBEs and my macigal experiences , I have had honest conversations with you, RB ,and many scholars and very wise and kind people yet.....I remain a Christian.

Trisha....your progression as you see it, is not THE WAY, for all nor is it THE TRUTH unchallenged, so make sure you take care to tell ChristianMagic that. There is the way of the left and right hand .

I respectyou both but I am in disagreement with you on this issue , treat me and him kind.

Regards Mustardseed
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

harlequin_star

s'okay.
   interesting, your viewpoints on christianity. I agree that once you get to a certain point, you start to. ..''see'' things about organized religion. Although, christianity has helped some peoples' faith. . .helped them to, i dunno, be 'born again', it's not the christian faith that's the problem. .the basic fundamentals are fine, as with many religions, such as buddhism for example whos core beliefs are much the same as christianity as well: love, kindness, acceptance, etc. The basic philosopies are the same, it's the church themselves who morph it the way they want. Pastors, monks, priests, they shape the bible and sacred writings however they please. .and when people go to church and listen, over time these warped teachings get nailed in their heads, so they go around judging people and saying things like "oh, you're not christian/catholic/whatever, you should come to church with me and learn about it." why, why are some religions better or worse than others.
   OmG, i totally agree with that whoever said it, about how witchcraft is defined. Thats so true. . .when you think about it. .look what Moses did, look what Jesus did, or Joseph. They did extraordiinary things that we would probably now condifer to be witchcraft (staff into snake, HEALING people, interpreting future events by dreams) the only difference is that God helped them and they admitted it, whereas the pharoahs priests used the satans power (in my opinion) to turn their staves into snakes which is why God won. .cuz Gods just awesome[;)]
   'christian witch' gives too many boundaries. .i personally dont think you should label yourself at all at this point. don't call yourself anything, just experience and learn . .after youve thought about everything, then you decide. that's what i did anyway, and it worked for me. .i know what i am. .and im not a christian, or hindu, or buddhist, or muslim. . .i'm me and i believe what i believe.(though my parents still make me go to church with them[xx(])
   not all witches are evil, and not all christians are loving.

Gandalf

Hi Mustardseed, How are you?

I havent seen you around, although perhaps thats because I havnt had time to post recently.

About this topic: I know I sounded overly harsh in my earlier statement, but I was trying to make a point which didnt work out to well; basically, I am not making any value judgements about either system here or comparing them in any way.
I just don't think that Magick in the Occult sense of the word, and Mainstream Christianity gel together, and any attempt to do so results in bizarre distortions like 'christian witches' and so on.

I don't think the practice of Magick plays any part in Christian belief, thats why I suggested that people have to make their own choice, to follow christian teachings (or Judaism/Islam which also have such rules about magick) or to ignore them.

I think you would agree that they are really two different systems and shouldnt be mixed?

Douglas


"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

rhinegirl

quote:
Originally posted by Dragon_Warrior

[:D][:D][:D] Yeah i'm a Christian as well, and i'm a Wizard/ Mage.
Just as long as you don't worship the devil then your cool.



What's wrong with devil worship? some of teh most decent, loving, people I know are satanists. And no they don't sacrifice children, or have orgies.

Jessica

blueflame

quote:
Originally posted by ChristianMagick

Hello Iv been studying Christian mysticism and Stuff like that for some time now. Iv been reading the Key of solomon and stuff. But What Is really furstrating is I want to do witchcraft But i dont wanna Say Stuff to like other gods cause im a christian witch .
 I wanna know how someone Who beleives in God how can they do magick ? And if anyone in here is familiar of what im talking about , how Can a Christian do magick?
 GOD BLESS YOU ALL
   See ya
     Albert



yeah, your looking for something called prayer.

Ekron

You link with the Divine when you practice magic.

Remember God created us in His "own image".

Cruel Tendencies

<This might be the case, but what you are describing is moving pretty far away from what most people recognise as 'Christianity', it is in fact 'christian mysticism', the further you go down this road the less and less recognisible as christianity it will become, until you reach the stage I am talking about, where people still feel they have to attach the christian lable to their mystic explorations in order for them to feel 'safe' and 'still within the rules', even when what they have found only loosely relates to the mainstream religion itself.>


While that may be true, it's a common teaching that all Christians are called to be mystics.  Mainstream exoteric religions, whatever those religions may be, are designed to keep in line the people who've not yet formed a relationship with God, and to make decisions for the "spiritually immature."  I think it's important in a place like this to differentiate between what's commonly accepted as Christianity, and what Christianity is really about.  I think it's important not to think of the lowest common denominator when talking about a set of beliefs.  Just because a lunatic with a TV show says "I'm Christian" before and after spouting off insane statements about why you're gonna go to hell and why he's not, that doesn't mean he's speaking for Christianity.  It just means that some people are lunatics.

But anyway, my point (which I know probably hasn't been very clear) is that the spiritually mature Christian is perfectly capable of practicing magick, if he so desires... it's just that he normally would have no need to do so, if he's actively trying to keep his desires in check and under the authority of Christ.   Being a Christian isn't just a label that you throw around before "mysticism" and "magick," it's a complete worldview that is actually very inclusive of all other religions.  However, its mysteries must be actively studied and meditated on, with a good deal of prayer, in order to be understood.  It's not something that can be set down in doctrines for the masses to understand.

Anyway, I apologize for the ranting.. touchy subject ;)


Paul

ChristianMagick

Hello Iv been studying Christian mysticism and Stuff like that for some time now. Iv been reading the Key of solomon and stuff. But What Is really furstrating is I want to do witchcraft But i dont wanna Say Stuff to like other gods cause im a christian witch .
 I wanna know how someone Who beleives in God how can they do magick ? And if anyone in here is familiar of what im talking about , how Can a Christian do magick?
 GOD BLESS YOU ALL
   See ya
     Albert

Tyciol

Good grief... *does Charlie Brown pose*

laiana

Quote from: TyciolGood grief... *does Charlie Brown pose*

Is that the only reason you revived this thread??

Wow.

Tyciol

Nah, actually I bumped it because I referenced it in another thread while researching Christians and Magic/Psionics and why they don't fit together. I just bumped it to bring it to people's minds.