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Goetia

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findtruth

First of all, "friendly harmless spirit", and Goetia don't go together. The Goetia is a list of demons and ow they can bve summoned.  If you're new, I don't suggest you try this.  
spirits are all over, though.  You just have to sense them.  there are elementals, ghosts, youki, and the list goes on.[;)]

Oazaki

xnedu - "And what exactly is goetia?"

the goetia is a list of spirits indexed by King Solomon in his lesser key, the clavicula salomanis.  traditionally these spirits are all considered demons and very dangerous, but i myself would dispute that classification.  that having been said, all the goetic spirits are pretty damn powerful as spirits go and they don't like having their time wasted, so yeah if you're just playing about with them they, in turn, might choose to have some fun with you.  anyway, you can access an on-line version of the lesser key of solomon here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/kos/index.htm

"Can I really call a spirit and talk to it?"

yes, though you'd have to evoke it to audible manifestation to do that.  usually it's easier to just communicate telepathically third-eye with them.

"I mean how would one go about with that?"

well, if you take a look at my homepage there's a whole section there on how to summon demons.  of especial interest to one just starting out with this stuff is my post on the following thread, which deals with the basics of summoning demons for a beginner:
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3887&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

it's from a direct magick standpoint, which i personally tend to prefer, finding it's the fastest and most effective way by means of which to produce results. for more on direct magick you might like to check out the following thread on just that topic:
http://www.darkforum.com/showthread.php?t=31501

if you'd prefer to try a more traditional ritual approach, check out solomon's lesser key reffered to and linked to above.  for more on the ritualized approach to demonic summonings you can check out the following threads, which basically have a lot of organized links on the topic, specifcally for the beginner:
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=8182
and:
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4807

so i think you've got plenty of solid info and guidance to work with on that one now... [;)]

"Definitely it doesn't understand English does it?"

yes it does, and every other known language besides, plus quite a few unknown ones too.  but, as i mentioned above, it's usually easier to just communicate telepathically with them, directly using the relevant concepts as opposed to going through the (often somewhat inaccurate) medium of language.

"Basically I would like to know whether I could summon them in physical form... like can I touch them with my hands...?"

yes, but this would require evoking them to physical manifestation, a most advanced technique and probably best avoided by the beginner.  still, if you are interested in pursuing this line of approach, check out "Summoning Spirits: The Art of Magical Evocation" by Konstantinos (available here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567183816/qid=1077470282/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7645426-9903216?v=glance&s=books )
which details how you can go about evoking spirits to visible manifestation; you'll then just have to adapt the technique given there, and modify it somewhat, to get the spirit through to physical manifestation.  when you're ready to do so, you should be able to figure out the relevant blanks in this regard yourself.  that having been said, whilst it's not the hardest thing to evoke a spirit to physical manifestation, to keep that spirit in the physical is a most advanced approach, as it requires giving the spirit enough physical karma to keep it in the physical.  this, in fact, is what i'm currently working on myself, but on a fairly large scale involving large numbers of higher-plane entities...

hope this helps.

all the best,
Oazaki.
Expect No Mercy

Nita

Hello Xnedu
  I would not go to any satanist websites for evocations. The evocations are designed to make a pact or cause other spiritual problems. Rhinegirl you should know this also. You can get anything that Satan can give you by God without all the headaches.
  The best thing to do is read a book on basic magic. Ritual Magic by Michael Kraig is a good book. Michael Harner is good for Shamanism and there are many excellent beginning books out for wicca or any other magical discipline.
  Look at what you want to do. A familiar is a spirit of any type that is a helper to you. it is always talked about in the witch trials and old grimoires. The Goetia is the Lesser key of Solomon. There is also the Greater Key of Solomon. There are many websites with classical magic books upon them. You can find interesting books with a little research upon amazon.com also.
       Nita
www.astralhealer.com
www.hermeticuniversityonline.com

Oazaki

quote:
Originally posted by Nita

Hello Xnedu
  I would not go to any satanist websites for evocations. The evocations are designed to make a pact or cause other spiritual problems. Rhinegirl you should know this also. You can get anything that Satan can give you by God without all the headaches.



consider this:  would not pacts with god also have implications?  for in the operation of karma there is no effect without a cause and both sides of the scale will always balance...
also, bear in mind why lucifer was thrown out of heaven to start with.  for giving mankind to eat of the tree of knowledge.  whilst to humanity, for eating from that tree, what was "god's" reaction?  this "god" who would have you believe that a paradise was ours to lose if only we had not eaten from that horrid tree.  for that one small taste of knowledge he repaid us with disease, pain, hunger, brutality mortality and original sin.
a slight overreaction perhaps?

yet without the ability to do for ourselves, to learn, to grow, what purpose would existence serve?  our spirit would whither and turn to dust.  you call this paradise, tis lost world of eden?  i tell you it is not.  it is a living death, a perverse existence.  why would a "god" wish such a thing?  what good a race with no purpose other than to praise his greatness?

imagine: a life of utter subjugation and servitude.  all for him who is the Shepherd.  and we, a flock of worthless, miserable beings.  less than sheep.  less than alive, only existing at the mercy of a superior force.  an irony, is it not, that a shepherd's duty is to protect the herd until the day of slaughter?

i revile this image, as should you.  we should seek more than this for ourselves and for our children.  a life of slavery is a life of hell, regardless of the master.  i am worthy of more than such an eden and i wish it not.  
for this garden of god, and of meekly bowing to god's will and laws, is no freedom.  it is damnation.

make pacts with neither god nor satan i say.  stand on your own two feet and walk your own path.  take the burden that is yours to bear, the task that is yours to fufill, and hoist it on your own shoulders.  seek not a crutch for you are not lame.  and it is both unseemly and slower to hobble when you can walk and even run.

seek also the truth for yourself.  do not take on board the standard line of religion and society merely because it is believed and accepted by the many.  examine your own emotions and your own fears and ask why they are there.  ask, perhaps, who put them there .

and remember, lucifer's actions were not those of one who would seek to hold humanity back.  he sought to give us knowledge and guide us to freedom.  with those two attributes, we can reach the stars and increase our power without limit.  would an enemy do that for an opponent?  give his opponent the very tools by means of which to, one day, beat him?  i think not.  rather, an enemy would seek to keep you in bondage, disempowered and unaware of your own greatness, your own potential, and how high you can reach.

learn to think for yourselves people.  learn to feel for yourselves.  and accept not limitations, no matter who tries to impose them on you.  for only thus will you ever be free.

and praise not lucifer either.  for your faith should be channeled within your own soul.  faith in thyself, faith in thy dreams, faith in thy abilities.  for only thus will you come to stand free and tall and live a life of your own making, rather than dancing as a puppett on the strings, to another's tune and for another's whims.

yet recognise who is a friend and who an enemy.  who has stood by you and who has sought to cast you down.  and then look beyond that for there is a wider drama being played out here too and the highest purpose is not love but justice.  and the end times are now upon us.

Oazaki.
Expect No Mercy

xnedu

hell... u do impress me with your speech oazaki... but i just cant even begin to think of god as someone who wants to keep us in bondage and deny us knowledge. true i am new to magick but i do know some thing ( however meagre it is ) regarding the good and bad. i think there is some truth in what nita says.
i just dont know how to put all i feel in to words.
but the basic point is to think of god as someone who doesnt wish us good is absurd.

okkk i have more queries...
has anyone out here has personally tried to evoke any spirits. can u tell me of ur experience?? I searched the net. There are a lot of material to help me invoke those goetic spirits but literally none to familiarize my self with the good spirits or elementals. How do I invoke them and how do I talk to them. I guess elementals are pretty good in nature so I thought maybe I will try to evoke them first...
Hey I read some of ur entries in other forums as well
Tell me guys will the spirits simply grant me wishes if I ask them to once after I evoked them?
And what about the great abyss??? And the worlds beneath and about it??? where do I find more material on that subject... I hope u giys can help me... I am totally lost.
And hey do u need any special gifts to perform all these magic acts in general??? Some of the books I have read is totally high level language and I don't seem to understand what the authors are trying to say...
Don't those entities have to fear karma too? Do the beings in the physical plane alone have to worry about their karma or consequences of the action. If they do something bad then don't they pay for it? tell me one more thing... if they chose to, can they pick out anyone from any world and hurt them... like can they reach someone here in the physical plane without prior contact or his or her knowledge...  

Bye guys...

and also thanks for all the people who have taken time to reply my queries ( i mean it )

Oazaki

quote:
Originally posted by xnedu
i think there is some truth in what nita says.
i just dont know how to put all i feel in to words.
but the basic point is to think of god as someone who doesnt wish us good is absurd.



there is indeed some truth to what nita says.  the key in all of this is to realise that there are various levels to god, that there is more than one plane above the great void.  the lucifer vs god thing is about lucifer vs kal (lord of the causal plane) and, in another way, also about another entity known as lucifer vs one of the netities formerly known as YHWH.  but anyways, this is a big, big topic and i've already covered it in detail elsewhere.  if you're interested in investigating it further, check out my homepage.

all the best,
Oazaki.
Expect No Mercy

wisp

Oazaki,
Your statements are in harmony with exactly why there was fall of man/woman.  Your choices are based on your timing, not God's. You want what you want before God.Your's is the same story as the commoners (Adam & Eve, as it is written).

If the right choice had been taken from the beginning, the rest of the story would be different. So, as it goes, if you don't get the first truth, you will not understand any truth that follows. For instance, I don't think your correct in who Lucifer represents.

Waiting on God. Why is this such a blow to the ego?

The Tree of Knowledge exists NOW. The things which followed that are written in the Bible has to do with the choice man/woman made at that time, thus the story is written. You can't understand what followed if you don't understand waiting for God. One token of obedience broken by man/woman, effected the rest. Go back to the beginning, read it again. Otherwise, continue on your journey of your own personal power struggle. Your confusing "service to God" with "waiting on God" (a time factor). Your saying man/woman can precede the natural order,and I think your wrong.

McArthur

quote:
Originally posted by Oazaki

consider this:  would not pacts with god also have implications?  for in the operation of karma there is no effect without a cause and both sides of the scale will always balance...
also, bear in mind why lucifer was thrown out of heaven to start with.  for giving mankind to eat of the tree of knowledge.  whilst to humanity, for eating from that tree, what was "god's" reaction?  this "god" who would have you believe that a paradise was ours to lose if only we had not eaten from that horrid tree.  for that one small taste of knowledge he repaid us with disease, pain, hunger, brutality mortality and original sin.
a slight overreaction perhaps?


Are you saying that you take the story of the Garden of Eden literally rather than as an allegory? What about other Eastern paths that have no mention of such things as "original sin" etc?

Also i would be interested in what you have to say about Lucifer as this name is only mentioned once in the Christian bible (not the Original Hebrew version) and has proven to be a mistranslation for "Son of the Morning" and was referring to the King of Babylon.

Gandalf

btw Lucifer is actually a minor Roman god; he is actually a personification of Venus when she is visable in the Morning sky, ie the Morning Star. For this reason he is given his name  Lucifer= 'light bearer'.

You can find plenty of references to him in Roman texts and poetry, such as Ovid for example. On the whole he is a fairly insignificant god, but he is *not* 'evil' in any way.
This only came about later when Christian mythology associated his name with their Judeo-christian Satan figure; they probably just liked the name!

Of course, if you are of the hard-core Christian mindset then you will regard ALL pre-christian gods as 'evil' and make them demons, but then Lucifer seems like a pretty bad choice for a lord of evil, woudnt Zeus or Jupiter be more appropriate?


Douglas

All hail JVPITER OPTIMVS MAXIMVS!!!

PS Regarding the Goetia, from looking at the names of the 72 demons, it is clear that most if not all of them are actually corrupted names of old gods ie Astaroth is actually Astarte, an old eastern goddess who was still popular during the Roman empire.

I also read that the term 'Goetia' refers to 'Goes' or 'magician'. A 'Goes' was a name (either Greek or Latin) given to magicians in the imperial period, but it had negative connotations, like 'snake oil salesman' or whatever.  A Goes was in no way related only to Judaic magic but could refer to any kind of magician.

Personally, I dont buy all the crap about them originally being sealed in a drum by Soloman etc... yeah right, so the Goddess Astarte was sealed in a drum by Soloman... hardly.

If we strip away all the mumbo jumbo, what we have is a system for evoking 72 pagan gods and goddesses, however they have all been 'blackened' as they are seen through the lens of a Christian viewpoint that makes all pagan gods 'evil demons'.
Therefore, the idea that they are all evil doesnt make much sense; of course, if you want them to be then Im sure they will oblige!

Anyway, I think that all evocations are actually bringing up powerful forces of our own subconsious, rather than a true external being; not that this makes them any less powerful or dangerous because of that.

Didnt Ale Crowely reckon that all demons were products of our own psyches?


"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Ekron

All we really have to fear is ourselves, fear of the unkown, therefore know thyself. "The Universe is Mental."

wisp

quote:
All we really have to fear is ourselves, fear of the unkown, therefore know thyself. "The Universe is Mental."


I think so.....[:)]


Gandalf,
Interesting things you say. I believe the subconscious produces things. How about those things external?

Is there a list of the 72 characters mentioned? Have you ever heard or read of St. Germaine? Does this one fit in this catagory?  And what is your take on Avatars? I read about them here and found it quit fascinating. These are spirits who come and go as they please between the astral and physical.

Gandalf

Hi Wisp_

Yeah the list of 72 demons/gods are found in 'the Lesser Key of Soloman'. Just remember though that despite what the unknown auther states, the 'Lesser Key', just like its companion book 'The Greater key' were NOT originally by Soloman, only by someone *pretending* to be Soloman!

The 'Greater key' was written sometime in the 14th century and the 'Lesser Key' with the list of 72 beings and their seals was written in the 17th century! You will notice that all the heirarchies of demons are written using medieval terminology, ie Duke, Count etc; also there are references to christian stuff as well; so the author slipped up on a couple of points!
All the references to Counts, Dukes and so on are just ways of grading how powerful the particular being is; the constant references to them being from 'Hell' and so on is another slip up, as 'Hell' was not yet an established concept in Soloman's time.

I was just flicking through a a goetic manual on my bookshelf which lists them all and their seals, but you can get them all by looking at any copy of the 'lesser key'; I think it's online these days.

This doesnt mean that the evocations dont work, it just means that the story pasted onto them about Soloman and how he trapped all these deities in a drum etc can be taken with a large pinch of salt.
Some magicians choose to accept it as it adds to the mystery.
Others prefer to eject the mumbo-jumbo and get on with what the Lesser Key is all about: evoking powerful spirit forces to do things for them!

As I said, most of these beings are actually old pagan gods from a wide range of origins and are only 'demons' in the christian sense of the word (ie all pagan gods are demons). Its really up to you how 'evil' you want them to be; some Christian influenced magicians like to seperate the nicer ones into 'Angels' as opposed to the 'demons' who are not so nice; but really this is just a christian interpretation.

I am still unsure as to whether 'demons' and gods in general are 'real' in the sense that they are sentient and have an independant reality or if they are instead projections from some dim regions of your subconsious mind; either way they are powerful and can be dangerous if not approached with care.

After reading about the occult notion of 'thought forms' and how they can be created and even seem to come alive in some way, I wonder if ALL gods that have been worshipped by many cultures over the years have come to life on the astral level through all the belief poured into them; if this is the case then it can be said that all deities are real and have an independent reality.

Concerning ol' St Germain: I have heard of St Germain, there are many stories circulating about this guy, apparantly an alchemist who discovered the secret of immortality and now wonders the earth etc. One story I read even said that he was the guy who secretly brought about the industrial revolution in Britain, by giving secret knowledge to scientists.
As far as I know he has no specific connection with Goetic magick though.

Douglas





"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Ekron

There are quite a few versions of "The Goetia" published now and some are indeed medieval in concept. The only version I have now is Crowley's illustrated (New Falcon Publications, 2000). This is less 'starchy' and more in line with the Golden Dawn way of thinking (if that's your thing). It does state at one point that the spirits of the Goetia are indeed portions of the human brain. There is also a wonderful account of an evocation of 'Orobus' one of the spirits of the Goetia which makes for a wonderful read in itself.

"If God didn't exist man would have had to invent Him."

wisp

Gandalf,
Thanks for the info. I hadn't thought about angels and/or demons being labeled by one particular standard. I'll have to try to find this list of 72. And thanks too for the little bit more info on Germain.

Mass consciousness producing something like a god is an interesting possibilty I guess. Personally I have a tendency to believe the spirits already exist (in some form or fashion). It's the names given to them that causes some of the confusion. I've read some of your interesting posts on the subject of producing various things by way of thought form. Maybe it's has to do with each person's individual vulnerability to accept things they hear or see. If their that vulnerable, are they capable of this? And another thing,can anyone who suffers from a bad case of vanity really produce anything lasting or valuable? The common problem with physical man/woman is vanity. Take away this, and you have little remaining. After you take away something common like this, and also run it through the filter of normal personality development (Carl Jung's process of Individuation,I believe it's called), then you have something possibly permanent or lasting. Or at least, the possibilty of less confusion at a later time (if there is a later time).
quote:
I was just flicking through a a goetic manual on my bookshelf which lists them all and their seals, but you can get them all by looking at any copy of the 'lesser key'; I think it's online these days.

Thank you, I will try to find this.
quote:
I am still unsure as to whether 'demons' and gods in general are 'real' in the sense that they are sentient and have an independant reality or if they are instead projections from some dim regions of your subconsious mind; either way they are powerful and can be dangerous if not approached with care.


I really like this statement. I guess this is the big question in a nutshell. And also,how real are the dangers? I have a tendency to think dangers are man or woman made. Like for instance, while your driving or riding in a vehicle, aren't you at the mercy of something higher than yourself that you won't be a victim of your own making and choices?

Thanks again for your many positive thoughts and research shared,Gandalf.




Gandalf

btw, concerning thought forms, you can find info on this from occult literature. It certainly seems to be a real phenomenom. As I mentioned elsewhere, there was a group of para-psychologists who decided to see if this worked so they met up to create such a thought form.

After a few sessions noises started to be heard and then the thought form, whom they named 'Philip' began to speak. As the sesssions went on, he grew in power until he was able to do astonishing things like lifting the table up into the air!
One of the most interesting things was that rathr than just being some kind of souless 'energy program' (for want of a better term) which could only fulfil simple tasks, 'Philip' really seesmed to develop his own personality and really seemed to come alive in some way.
The group later finished up the experiment after which they dismissed 'Philip'.

This raises some questions:
Was 'Philip' REALLY sentient, or was he just a very sophisticated 'thought-program' who was very good at imitating a sentient being. The same kind of argument woudnt be out of place in an AI lab today!

If he did come to life in some way, then what happens when the group is finished with the thought form and no longer call him; since he will no longer receive energy, is it the case that he will fade away into nothingess after a few weeks/months/years? If he is alive in some way, isnt this cruel to bring him to life only for him to fade away?
On the other hand, perhaps once a being has came to life they are then permanent.
This then brings us on to deites, if they attain life in the same way, then do they fade out if people stop believing in them, or do they just drop in power but still stay around?

Anyway, for those who are interested in thought-form creation, I have posted a new topic in the magic forum, detailing an occult technique for creating such an entity.

Douglas

"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

McArthur

quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf
After a few sessions noises started to be heard and then the thought form, whom they named 'Philip' began to speak. As the sesssions went on, he grew in power until he was able to do astonishing things like lifting the table up into the air!
One of the most interesting things was that rathr than just being some kind of souless 'energy program' (for want of a better term) which could only fulfil simple tasks, 'Philip' really seesmed to develop his own personality and really seemed to come alive in some way.


A question could be asked here as to whether it was a thoughtform or some being pretending to be "Philip".
quote:

If he did come to life in some way, then what happens when the group is finished with the thought form and no longer call him; since he will no longer receive energy, is it the case that he will fade away into nothingess after a few weeks/months/years? If he is alive in some way, isnt this cruel to bring him to life only for him to fade away?


Unless one knows what one is doing with thoughtforms it can be tricky. Unless you re-absorb the thoughtform back into yourself (made up of your own energy) it can wander around causing all sorts of trouble and end up becoming a parasite/vampire. If it has a certain amount of intelligence programmed into it it will know it needs energy to stay "alive". There is a good example of this kind of situation in Dion Fortunes "Psychic Self-Defense" where she re-absorbes a Wolf-type thoughtform she inadvertantly created.

Oazaki

quote:
Originally posted by wisp

Oazaki,
Your statements are in harmony with exactly why there was fall of man/woman.  Your choices are based on your timing, not God's. You want what you want before God.Your's is the same story as the commoners (Adam & Eve, as it is written).

If the right choice had been taken from the beginning, the rest of the story would be different. So, as it goes, if you don't get the first truth, you will not understand any truth that follows. For instance, I don't think your correct in who Lucifer represents.

Waiting on God. Why is this such a blow to the ego?

The Tree of Knowledge exists NOW. The things which followed that are written in the Bible has to do with the choice man/woman made at that time, thus the story is written. You can't understand what followed if you don't understand waiting for God. One token of obedience broken by man/woman, effected the rest. Go back to the beginning, read it again. Otherwise, continue on your journey of your own personal power struggle. Your confusing "service to God" with "waiting on God" (a time factor). Your saying man/woman can precede the natural order,and I think your wrong.



Wisp, believe me, I know all about divine timing, probably more than anybody else.  After all, what I have done (see my myriad other posts for details on this) was done through the use of the tools of divine timing and karma.  More specifically, through the manipulation of the relevant karmic threads and the use of the relevant karmic gateways.

Also, I have personally met both Lucifer and the entity once known as YHWH, as well as the all the various true aspects of God (ie the lords of the planes of creation) and so I know that of which I speak.  Have you?  Or do you base your statements on the popularly socially held and propagated ideas and conceptions?  Know that these were never designed to be truth, were always designed to control.  Yet, as ever, believe what you will.  It would be best though if you so believed on the basis of your own deep inveestigation as opposed to on the basis of what you have been told.

Yet this is not a point I'm willing to argue at this stage.  Decide for yourself where you want to take it and decide for yourself what you balieve the truth to be and decide for yourself where you want to place your focus and to whom you wish to give your support.

Btter than giving support to one faction or another though I'd say is to look to yourself, direct your focus inwards and channel thy faith within thine own soul.  But I repeat, the choice is yours.  And, so too, are the consequences of that choice.  So be sure to choose wisely and with awareness.

all the best,
Oazaki.
Expect No Mercy

Oazaki

quote:
Originally posted by McArthur

Are you saying that you take the story of the Garden of Eden literally rather than as an allegory? What about other Eastern paths that have no mention of such things as "original sin" etc?



Ah, nice question.  [:)]  I am taking the story of the Garden of Eden metaphorically, and I am also answering it / expounding upon it metaphorically. [;)]

quote:

Also i would be interested in what you have to say about Lucifer as this name is only mentioned once in the Christian bible (not the Original Hebrew version) and has proven to be a mistranslation for "Son of the Morning" and was referring to the King of Babylon.




Lucifer does exist, as did the entity formerly known as YHWH, and Lucifer was the good guy ie the one on humanity's side.  I mean, c'mon, check out the old testament for just some of the stuff the entity formerly known as YHWH got up to.  Hardly sounds like a benevolent god does it?  Also, neither was the biblical YHWH a god nor is the biblical Lucifer and angel.  what you have going on there is duplication of already-extant entities / names in the creation for "As above, so below" refers not only to this Earth relative to the heavens and the astral, but also the higher planes relative to the planes above them.  The creation is a set of reflections within reflections within reflections.

The original YHWH btw, the YHWH of jewish mysticism, eg the deity referred to in the Zohar, is the same entity referred to in Sikhism as Kal.  He is the Lord of the causal plane of the creation.  and the original lucifer really is an archangel, the brightest, wisest, most beautiful ever created.  And he really did begin a rebellion against Kal.  Again, reflections within reflections within reflections.  I have given more info on the lucifer rebellion, it's nature and purpose and outcome on my thread "The Lucifer Experiment" located here:

http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=6207&highlight=

all the best man,
Oazaki.
Expect No Mercy

McArthur

quote:
Originally posted by Oazaki

Lucifer does exist,

Probably so as a thoughtform that has evolved quite a bit since the translation error in the King James version of the Hebrew bible. But try and ask any Jewish Rabbi if there is a being named "Lucifer" in the Tanakh and you'll more than likely get a "no". The original translation error for the term "Son of the morning" "how thou hast fallen" etc was referring to the King of Babylon. Read Isiah if you don't believe me.

The serpent in the garden is not named "Lucifer" neither is the "Devil". The name used is Satan, which means 'adversary'. As someone else in this thread pointed out the name "Lucifer" comes from a minor Roman deity associated with the planet Venus. SO Christianity probably used this name and demonized it as a way of destroying all competing beliefs to it. The same was done with the Celtic god Cernunnus with the stags horns on his head which is where we get the typical Christian image of a Devil with horns (or the Greek god of nature, Pan) etc.

If you wish to base your personaly philosphy around this "Lucifer" thoughtform that came from a translational error of the Hebrew bible by medieval Christians thats fine with me. I just thought i would point these things out. [;)]

http://www.deeptrancenow.com/paradigm.htm

Oazaki

quote:
Originally posted by McArthur

The serpent in the garden is not named "Lucifer" neither is the "Devil". The name used is Satan, which means 'adversary'. As someone else in this thread pointed out the name "Lucifer" comes from a minor Roman deity associated with the planet Venus. SO Christianity probably used this name and demonized it as a way of destroying all competing beliefs to it. The same was done with the Celtic god Cernunnus with the stags horns on his head which is where we get the typical Christian image of a Devil with horns (or the Greek god of nature, Pan) etc.



yeah, don't get hung up on names and recorded history dude.  consider: there is a reason that history is recorded as it is, and that includes that which is recorded in religious or sacred texts.

quote:

If you wish to base your personaly philosphy around this "Lucifer" thoughtform that came from a translational error of the Hebrew bible by medieval Christians thats fine with me. I just thought i would point these things out. [;)]



i base my personal philosophy around no established belief system.  i base it on my personal esoteric / mystical investigation.  and where what i discern as truth coincides with what is written in already-established sources, i refer to those parts of the already-established systems to get my points across to others.  and where what i have discovered contradicts established sources, i reject those established sources.  for my stuff i have tried and tested and know that is true and does work.  these certainties are, for me, greater than the certainties of what i see with my own eyes for the higher realms are a more "alive" realm and my truer domain.

oh and btw, the story of the fall from eden refers to the fall in consciousness (and hence dimensional levels) that occurred on this earth with the fall of atlantis.  which leads one perhaps to consider: to what does the "tree of knowledge", metaphorically, refer, and how did "the serpent" tempt mankind with its fruit?  any ideas? [;)]

hope this clears up some of the confusion.

all the best,
Oazaki.
Expect No Mercy

Gwathren

quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf

btw Lucifer is actually a minor Roman god; he is actually a personification of Venus when she is visable in the Morning sky, ie the Morning Star. For this reason he is given his name  Lucifer= 'light bearer'.



I don't like the perosnification idea/fact. If Lucifer would be only(!!!) a minor God, why would the God not just crush Lucifer. Or is that "God" so weak then that can't defeat a minor(!) Roman god? I don't see logic here, sorry...
"Everything returns as before, and there is nothing new under the Sun, and man never changes although his clothes change and also the words of his language change."
Mika Waltari "Sinuhe"

Gandalf

You don't understand what I'm saying.

The Christian 'lucifer' and the old Roman god of the same name are in no way related. The Christians just used his name for their own 'devil' figure.

Thats it.

Douglas
"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Gwathren

OK, I understood wrong. But still, why did christians then take over the name? If I would have made a lord of evil, I would not have taken over the name of a minor god, because then the fighting idea between good vs evil seems idiotic. And by the way when they took the name, they HAD to choose it. Why did they took Lucifer? Why not..Peter(just a samnple)? If you give someone's name to some one it MUST have some sort of connection? I doubt that someone said:
"Hey, let's take Lucifer!"
" Why?"
"Because...it sounds cool?!?"
"Everything returns as before, and there is nothing new under the Sun, and man never changes although his clothes change and also the words of his language change."
Mika Waltari "Sinuhe"

xnedu

Hello,
I am new to this. I mean both the forum and this weird stuff. It is pretty hard to believe that stuffs like spirits and other things exist. But I fail to deny their existence too because honestly I don't know. I have a few questions. I hope some of the more knowledgeable guys can help me. what are "familiars" in general? And what exactly is goetia? Can I really call a spirit and talk to it? I mean how would one go about with that? Definitely it doesn't understand English does it?
Basically I would like to know whether I could summon them in physical form... like can I touch them with my hands...?
Is it possible. If so I would like  to know the names of some friendly harmless spirits...

aryanknight666

It means 'bearer of light' I beleive or something to that effect and its a roman translation of....I'm assuming hebrew, one language or another that was an early biblial language, they called him the light bearer and lucifer means this in the latin or roman language.
Satan is a hebrew word meaning adversary yes, but the hebrews came out of egypt and in egyptian Sata-n means serpent in egyptian.