occultists, esotherians and con-artists.

[Tisha]

good topic.

Crazy sociologists who delve into magic are few and far-between (thanks be to the Gods!).  Most fall into the Type II category, i.e., turning to the occult to meet emotional needs.

Examples are legion!  

a. The teenage boy who wants revenge on his peers for some real or imagined slight.
b. The teenage girl who freaks out her parents by saying "I can't go to church anymore; I'm a witch now!"
c. The young occultist who yearns for power and uses his mystique to obtain sex.  
d. The coven leader who wants to work out her family issues through small-group dynamics.
e. The new age groupie who wants to feel good about his/her magical view of the world.  
e. The list goes on! Even the con-artist is trying to meet his/her emotional needs!

What is wrong with using the occult to meet emotional n
eeds, you might ask! I'll tell you:  YOUR NEEDS MAKE YOU BLIND AND DEAF.  The Spirits/Ancestors/Guides/whomever might be screaming in your ear, but you won't hear it!  You won't make important changes to bring yourself knowing-power, because to do so will make you uncomfortable.

Magical development is often more frightening, painful, confusing and bewildering than it is "comforting."  In general, if you are in your comfort zone, you just an ordinary person interested in magic, not a magician.

[Lefthandblack]

I wonder how many "famous" occultists would fall into the aforementioned categories?

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
   hmmm...maybe i miss the point...*sigh*....hmmm...  sure, sure...but what does it matter?  i mean, if you look at it from a different angle?  those people or types of people mentioned my azi and tish are really just plain people...i mean we all have shuckster and sychophants(sp?) hiding out inside us...glory hogs and kelshas of all sorts....in yoga, the kleshas("impurities")are given two main divisions of raga-passions=attractions and devesha-repulsions/dislikes.  i feel like when there is talk of emotional "needs", it could be useful to create a distinction between the egoic gratifications that we attach our Self to, and, i feel, in a more true and accurate "emotional need"; like loving ones Self, knowing community, feeling interconnectedness and communion with the Energies and Flow of Life and Death.  If we can see those around us who manifest extreme kleshas, avarice, greed, uncontrolled lust, rage, etc. as a sort of attempt of a blind person searching in the dark for that source of light which will bring sight.  Meaning that, to judge others in a moralistic context, and then to label them and ultimately create a sense of alienation and fear for that which is not connected to our Selfs...is in fact, a mirroring of those, maybe more subtle kelshas which still exist within our egoic energy matrix.  And there is nothing wrong with this, as it is a process whereby we can learn about ourselves...but there is also an inherent danger in any process of externaliztion and projection, and the challenge of such a process is to be able to recoginize what is what.  So, in my humble opinion Azithoth, Tisha, i dont see the initial approach to this topic of "people who are in pain and confusion and grasp from the darkness" as particularly appropriate....if there can be a shift in emphasis from "those people out there do this" to "i perceive outside myself people behaving in ways which i do not like; what are the deeper feelings(emotions) that i feel about such actions and how do they relate to me?".  really, as the topic stands, you could simply say "there are people other than me in the world who are lost, confused and doing things that are wrong."  offerred(sp?;squeek i know youre out there!) in love, shadowdancer

[Tisha]

Shadowdancer, the magical growth process may be likened to a sine wave.  The search for magic/power/knowing isn't a straightforward thing, like putting apples in a basket.  

Rather, you gain power, you forget it, you lose it, you have to start over!

Everything is a test
to see what you will do;
mistaking what's before your eyes,
you have to start anew!

-Hsuang Hua

Anyone might see himself/herself in the examples I listed above. We might be so impressed with our own progress, only to have some very rude-but-caring person tell us we're full of CRAP. MY question is, when it happens to you, what are you going to do about it?  Waste time in rationalizations, or CHANGE?

[Noxerus]

.

[Ceriel N]

Only way not to get there is stopping! []

For me, one of the greatest realizations I have had was something that came to me extremely subtly. No major "Aha"-experience, just something I knew: Truth exist independent of me.
This allows me to step out into the 'real' world from my previous stone, found in an understaning of Descartes' "I think, therefore I am".
Even prior to the Cartesian realization I was a man of Science, a stone hard materialist.
So I went from the physical/emotional to the mental and have now discovered the essential. =)

"Those who know" say that the "Superessentail" is what comes next, and I'm egerly researching to catch a glimpse at this world.

[Aristoles]

You forgot to mention selfish and sadistic needs Tisha

[n/a]

I am just saying, that people who have Interest in sociology are not the Ones who practise the magic and the occult.

and the others-who also believe they are "famous" for their "occult" powers are the people who seek EMOTIONAL SATISFACTION.
"a gift from God" "a God" "a Nirvana" "an emotional enlightment"
Tishas teenagers, with hormons that seek EMOTIONAL SATISFACTION.
"a Nirvana" "an emotional enlightment" "new age-emotions"

why? is it maybe that 'mr Occultist' is a good title?  
perhaps, today.
it is very modern today!

shadowdancer, are you sociologist?
(just like your favourite Idol Hakim Bay is?)
are you offended with this topic, and emotionaly hurt
because you also thought you are an Occultist?
what if-you are not?
(or are you just an sociologist analysing us for your occult 'RESEARCH'?)
That is, SOCIOLOGIST ONLY DO RESEARCH -THEY DO NOTHING, REALY!

Not in Occult, not in practise -not anywhere!
they just talk and blabel -WITHOUT INTENTION.

it is very modern today, that sociologist also RESEARCHED the occult,
because of their emotional needs to not be completley left out
of that field.
but they are.
or worse!
some of them-became occultist out of sociology practise!

or worse.
some of them practice the occult while reading only sociology in the occult books.

but they are not even ranked as theoreticians.(Mesotherians)
they are only-sociologist with low self-esteam.

what will it be next? historians that use ceremoniall Magic?

[Tisha]

Relax!

It is FINE to be a sociologist, just fine!  Fine, that is, if you wish to remain an ordinary person.  Which is also just fine!  We only need a few social-scientists in the occult world, attempting to rationalize the behavior of sorcerers in a way that pleases themselves and the ordinary world-at-large.  Maybe a handful in each generation, that would be good! (PS shadowdancer, I've got a BS in social science).

99.99999999% of humanity are non-sorcerers!  Also, most OCCULTISTS are NOT SORCERERS!  The two words sorcery - occult are not synonomous.
Most occultists are theorists and armchair mystics.  This, TOO, is just fine, as long as it is YOUR INTENT.  If it is, admit it and be happy!

Carlos Casteneda was introduced to the Sorcerer's World through his professional field, social anthropology.  But to become a true sorcerer, he had to leave Reason behind.  (reason=rationalization, a human trait).  The world of social science demands reason, and theories that are pleasing to the minds of a whole society of rationalists.  Carlos managed to move back-and-forth between (literally) two worlds during his training.  But he couldn't keep it up . . . finally, he had to make a choice.

[n/a]

but of course![]

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
    Tisha- Your initial reaction to my first post was imho, just that.  I called you on something and you said nothing to challenge me, you just sneered in my face.  I would prefer a loving challenge.  Also, why do you continually refer to your superiority as a magickal practicioner in relation to the vast bulk of humans.  Do you see something in the collective unconscious that makes you shudder?

    Azithoth- I am not a sociologist nor occultist.  Are you a label-whore?  Why do you spend so much time concerning yourself with what other people are doing, and how they aren't doing it right?  I am curious if this takes away from your practice?  

    In Love and Respect

[Ceriel N]

Some would claim we all practice magick to a varying extent, and I would claim they are right. The method people use just varies, as well as their level of effectivity. Occultists tend to use a wider perspective of nature for this, while for instance a medical doctor utilizes mostly biology as far as he is concerned. I on the other hand utilize the medium of the internet to indirectly influence your minds in a way that I apparently assume will benefit me.

[Tisha]

Shadowdancer, that was an interesting reversal!  [)] You wanted me to join in the kind of self-absorbed rationalizing you indulge in (let me add you do it beautifully), but instead, I held up a mirror to you face and threw you a challenge! [:O]  And not in a mean way, either . . . I was not upset, angry, mean or even sneering. I was kinda hoping you'd take it to heart.

Also, check my other posts - - -  I have never referred to myself a sorceress. A real sorceress would have no time to moderate a web forum. My magical practice is haphazard at best. I'm an armchair mystic with the occasional sorceress-moment.  Maybe, someday, I shall be a real sorceress.  But today, I'm just a wannabe . . . just like you!

A "loving" challenge (read: sugar-coated!) is no challenge. If you were a child, I might sugar coat it.  But you're old enough to take the occasional hit.

"The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you angry!" My old teacher had that on his refrigerator, ha ha.  He used to make me SO mad . . . So . . . are you going to look in the mirror?   I dare you . . . .[]

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
   One persons "self-absorbed rationalising" is anothers "thoughtful introspection".  The "challenge" you present was what?  Could you delineate that challenge?  Because at this moment, all I can see in your words is, "oh yeah, well, when someone says, what i feel you said to me, lets see if you handle it as well as i did!".  Unless, of course, you were actually stating that I am full of crap and you were challenging me to change in an undefined way that would be, to you, less full of crap.  If that is case, I again request, if you wish to communicate your feelings and perceptions of how I am full of crap; I am open to listenting.  I do request that you try your best to present your views with Love.  Tisha, I have read many of your other posts since I have joined the AP Forums, and have found in nearly every single post, you reference in some implicit or subtle way, your practical and personal work with magickal energies/intention.  For me, and if I may be so presumptuous, very possibly to many others; it is as close to an explicit statement as possible, that you see yourself as a sorceress.  Its great that you can admit to yourself and others that your magickal practice is haphazard at best.  And I ask, who is being presumptuous?  A wannabe? "just like me"?  Your credibility is pretty much shot.  You yourself state that you are a wannabe.  I have never made any claims or statements about any practices of mine.  And Tisha, are you ashamed of your original reply?  Asking if I was a 2-year old?  Why write something in the first place if you would be ashamed of it later.  Maybe some indulgent thoughtful introspection would do you well.  A loving challenge can certainly be a challenge.  Love is a very different quality than sentimentalism.  Sugar-coated=emotional sentimentalism.  Love=Truth.  Yes Tisha, I am old enough to take the occasional hit and barrage even.  Really, age isnt the defining in determining that, as you have shown us all.
                                       Love and Respect

[Tisha]

Shadowdancer, please read that "full of crap" post one more time . . . I meant exactly what I said.  I challenged you to think about how you will respond the next time a well meaning (albeit rude) person tells you that you are full of crap.  I did not say that you WERE full of crap . . . you read that into my message, so you can own that.

Azaithoth, in his rude agressive manner, nonetheless puts forth some important teachings.  His whole thesis here is that magic is a mental art, not an emotional one.  In fact, in magic, emotion is deadly, energetically speaking.  

Given this fact, it would be in poor form for the Moderator to sully this thread with her emotions! Why change a post after it's been written?  That's what the edit funtion is for!  I am more interested in correcting a course, than in rationalizing why I took the wrong one.  I'm not interested in engaging in a tinkling contest - I just wanted to emphasize Azaithoth's point. And that two-year-old comment of mine did not sit well with me after I posted it.

"Thoughtful introspection" is a wonderful thing, it serves humanity well, brings personal growth, improved relationships, etc. etc.. I do it all the time in my personal relationships. In MAGIC, however, introspection is only valuable when done with MAGICAL INTENT; i.e., to achieve a specific, deliberate magical goal.  When introspection only serves to feed the emotions, it is indulgence.

I had presumed by your postings that you were a magical practitioner interested in perfecting your Craft.  Perhaps I presumed too much! I must admit now that Ido not know your INTENT, and so, I cannot say whether or not you are going about things in the right way. I can only ask the question, in keeping with the theme of this thread. If it is your intent to achieve personal growth, a satisfactory world view, the perfect thesis, "nirvana-bliss," WHATEVER! then I have no comment, nothing to say, just go for it and be happy!  

HOWEVER, if you - and anyone reading this thread - wants to be a sorcerer, he should heed Azaithoth's teachings.  Never mind that he's a jerk; there is no rule that states your teachers (and they are legion) have to be nice.  If you want to be a sorcerer, take your emotions out of the process.  When you no longer are upset by people's rudeness, taking whatever information you can TO SERVE YOUR CRAFT, it will be a good sign of progress.

[n/a]

quote:Azaithoth, in his rude agressive manner, nonetheless puts forth some important teachings. His whole thesis here is that magic is a mental art, not an emotional one.

Magic is PSYCHICAL Energetic SKILL.
diametricaly opposite of sociology and "higher divine bliss" that are happening.

Magic do not happend.

my purpose of this topic is TO ELIMINATE those who think(mentaly)
they are the Occultist and Esotherians,
even sub-consciousley and especially, unconscioussley,
so they can live they life ever after
in peace, KNOWING that they are not.
and also, for other people to recognize them
oblivious, with NO INTENT!
except ego-argue and mental-ego-games.
just like shadowdancer.

can you tell a difference?

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
    TISHA-  

quote:I meant exactly what I said. I challenged you to think about how you will respond the next time a well meaning (albeit rude) person tells you that you are full of crap. I did not say that you WERE full of crap . . .

               that is why i asked.
      I know that Azithoth, despite his aggressiveness and crudity, can present insightful perceptions.  I do believe that i went out of my way to point that out some time ago on another thread, to YOU Tisha!  Regardless, i was not in any way dismissing his thoughts or perceptions of anything, but i certainly was presenting a challenging view in relation to his initial presentation of "occults, esotherians and con-artists".  More specifically, I was strongly challenging the usefullness of your view.  Which was, imho, a process projection, stereotyping and alienation.  
      Tisha, i heartily disagree with you that it is a "fact" that emotional energies are deadly within the context of magickal work.  In my world-view, everthing is magickal act of sorts, and for me, given THAT fact; the attunment to and awareness of own's emotional energies(tangent to control and suppression thereof)is essential to any magickal work.  Given my view, I feel it is cowardice that you edit your words.  In my opinion, it would have taken truer courage to let the comment stand and post another reply.  That is a correction in accordance with one's consciousness.  To edit the comment is to sweep it under the rug.    
       Introspection to feed the emotions....HA!  Then there is nothing!  It does not happen!  Have you heard of a concept called svadhyaya?  It is a sanskrit term meaning "one's own, going into".  In english, this could be said to mean "the process of introspective meditation of one's Self".  See for me, because i believe magick is everywhere and everthing, the motion of life and whatnot; in order to achieve clear INTENT in anything, Gnothi Seauton is the order of the day.  I shudder to think of the possibility that this process is considered by some to be, "indulgent".        
        Honestly, who cares what i label myself as?  What does it matter?  I am a human on a path.  As Ceriel has made comment, it is the essential which IS.  Please, try to understand, nothing wrong with labels per se, nor even stereotyping.  Its all about the context!  Tisha, you sound a bit frustrated that you do NOT know my intent.  Too many of us, myself included, spend much too much time, centering ourselves by pushing off of something or someone else.  
        Tisha, if I wanted to be a sorcerer; I would be just that.  A wannabe (just like you).  

quote:Maybe, someday, I shall be a real sorceress. But today, I'm just a wannabe . . .

 And I certainly would not call Azithoth's ramblings, "teachings" to be HEEDED!!  LOL!  
        My 2 cents?  If there are those out there who want to be sorcerers...stop trying to be a sorcerer.  

         Azithoth-  "If you wanna touch the sky, better learn how to kneel."  its a pop-culture reference, i baulk at using it, but you are not too good for a potential sat guru are you Azithoth?
       
                                       Much Love and Respect

[Ceriel N]

Hm...? Wha? No no no... There's more to it/this than the essential. Much more. Very very much more. []
Everything makes a difference, even if it is marginal. In accordance with chaos theory something insignificant to you could be all-encompassing to someone else. For one, that means that when you try to explain something abstract with a concrete example, someone who is in close connection with that concrete thing will se an effect that is more than likely undesired by you.
One needs to walk a thin line when dealing with abstract concepts and their relation to one-another since their implications can be quite profound. Another problem is that someone unaware of these concepts still will see that you speak truth, but draw wrongful conlusions from the concrete example, the example only ment by you to work as such; an example.

On more concrete levels people have highly differing experiences, interpritations, connotitions and bias. It makes no solid ground for a progressive discussion, but a good root for quarrel. (Like I see is erupting here...)

[n/a]

I see it like this: do not get involved into someone else 'MENTAL PROJECTIONS' of them selves.
go ONLY into the PURPOSE of things.
that is Esotherie.
finding purpose and stick to it.
(do not get confused.)

all I can see is that
shadowdancer is one-troubled young man with lot on his mind.
to much.
he cannot put all his troubles into One sentence, so
he is confused and is trying to confuse all that take notice of him.
he wants to be rejected as such.
and then he feeds on his own mental-emotions of himself.
"to much psychology? -to much coffee! drink tea or decaff!"


the purpose of this topic is to find the bad examples -in the art,
and shadowdancer-thought he is here to defend them!
with what? bad sociology?

and if it is not, out of emotions-I don't know what is.
"to much emotionality? -drink some sociology of Hakim Bay!"
-do not get into the magic, occult and Esotherie!
[]

[Tisha]

I disagree.  The mystic, for instance, feels magic quite keenly; but he is not a magician or sorcerer.   Anyone can learn as much as he can about magic (from books, observation, participation) without ill-effect.   The only downside is that they will annoy Azaithoth, but who cares?

I am acquainted with MANY in the (U.S.) magical community who consider themselves "witches" or "magicians" or "magical practitioners."   However, their goals are primarily MYSTICAL; they simply don't know the difference between mysticism and sorcery. How do I know?  I was one of these people for YEARS!!!!!  I followed the examples around me; what did I know?

The INTENT of most mystic-pagans is to wallow in magical feeling and awareness for as much of their free time as practicable.  Which for them, unfortunately, means weekends and pagan festivals.  Now, of course, wallowing is very indulgent, and most of the pagans I know are very indulgent (and emotional) people in general. So, in this regard, they are in their element.  As for me, wallowing only left me disoriented, confused, and upset when I returned to my so-called "normal" life.   It wasn't until I learned to deliberately use the Force to shape my ordinary-day-to-day that I understood what it meant to be a magical practitioner.  When I figured it out, ironically, I ended my association with the pagan community at-large, choosing to associate primarily with other (real) practitioners.

So . . . my point . . . magic is not the exclusive possession of the sorcerer.  Magic is universal, it exists to be seen and experienced by ALL.  Even the oblivious shape their lives with magic . . . obliviously!  Sorcery is another bag of tricks entirely.

Now . . . whether or not a non-practitioner should involve himself in the occult is another question.  My opinion is:  If you can buy it in a bookstore, it is no longer "occulted;" i.e., hidden, and is therefore no longer esoteric.   It is the Occult Formerly Known as Esoterica!  Call it magic, wicca, call it anything, just don't call it the occult.  

(maybe quantum physics is the new occult, who knows?)

[Ceriel N]

Now it's my turn to disagree.

You can hold up esoteric wisedom in front of the face of the uninitiated and he will stare blankly at it, since he does not understand. It remains hidden even if it is in plain view.
One fo the cornerstones of Theosophy is something that is closely related to the anthropic principle, causa prima, the birth of cosmos, but since it requires understanding beyond simply knowing about it, it remains hidden for many. In my opinion it _should not_ be hidden due to the fact that it is so very fundamental to us and something everybody has a right to.
No, if it needs to be hidden by men it can be understood by anyone and just requires common sense to figure out. As such it wasn't hidden to begin with.

[n/a]

I agree with mr Cornflakes- Esotherie is Esotherie no matter if it is hidden or not. THAT IS ONLY TRUE SCIENCE.
IT HAS NOT CHANGED FOR 30.000 years!
the new SORCERERS(Tesla,Von Braun,Schauberger) have only discovered it
AGAIN.
The Esotheric knowledge is the One which cannot be changed.
so, it is the only true-TO KNOW it.
an ordinary men and the Occultist cannot find it.
or "everyone and everything is magical!" can't!

the only One who can find it is an Alien searching for some truth.
nobody else.

[Ceriel N]

"mr Cornflakes", if I ever can figure out how you came up with that one...

Anyway, I'm not sure the esoteric doctrine has ever changed, since it is basically the Law of Cosmos.

[Tisha]

ceriel -> cereal -> breakfast cereal -> cornflakes!

[Ceriel N]

[B)]