The Astral Pulse
News: http://www.astralpulse.com/aup.html. Acceptable Use Policy for the forums. Please read and ensure that you respect these policies. Thank you.

If you wish the join The Astral Pulse, please create an account and then email myself or one of the moderators your username and email address (do not send us your password please) and we will activate your account for you. 
If it's been over 24 hours and you still haven't been approved, please send another email, we are just people too and sometimes we get busy.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/member_registration_requiring_approval-t42962.0.html

We apologize for any inconveniences this may cause, but it's the last resort we have to fighting the spam for now.
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. August 02, 2021, 15:39:23


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The validity of Magic  (Read 11194 times)
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« on: November 25, 2007, 01:19:45 »

Hello, I am an occasional visitor of these forums
but this is the first time I decided to post here.
To my knowledge it is the general consensus that
matters of magic are reserved for fairytales and nerds in capes.
For if such a thing as magic exists then surely it would be common place.

In my curiosity I have decided to have an open mind about the subject.
I have found the answers to many questions here and some of those answers
have fueled my breakaway from Christianity. So I have a few questions I would like
to put up for the consideration of the community and I would very much like to hear
back if you are so inclined to answer.

1) What is the source of magic and in what way is it controlled?

2) What uses does magic have? Both good and bad?

3) I hear talk of strange objects of magic? how could such things come to be?

4) Is there a large difference between science and magic, or is magic just another branch of science?

5) Where is the line between story book magic and "real" magic?

Thank you for your time.
Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 00:19:19 »

Hello, I am an occasional visitor of these forums
but this is the first time I decided to post here.
To my knowledge it is the general consensus that
matters of magic are reserved for fairytales and nerds in capes.
For if such a thing as magic exists then surely it would be common place.

In my curiosity I have decided to have an open mind about the subject.
Ok......
Quote
1) What is the source of magic and in what way is it controlled?
You, or the creative power of the universe, or God, or whatever you care to call it is the source of magic (and the source of pretty much anything else) and it is controlled by recognizing your innate creative power.
Quote
2) What uses does magic have? Both good and bad?
Magic is about manifesting what you want.  Good are bad are relative to what you want.  If you want to help someone, it would be considered good- if you want to hurt someone, it would be considered bad.  But even that can be relative.  I guess intention is the key to labeling it such a way.
Quote
3) I hear talk of strange objects of magic? how could such things come to be?
  I don't know about 'strange', but if you can inbue an object with intention, you can say the object has been programmed.  The more the collective consciousness 'decides' that an object is protective or harmful, the more it becomes.  The object itself is not the source of magic, but the focus of consciousness as such.
Quote
4) Is there a large difference between science and magic, or is magic just another branch of science?
Magic is usually not studied by science at all, because it presupposes that mind in and of itself can be a causal agent, and science usually does not recognize this possibility.
Quote
5) Where is the line between story book magic and "real" magic?
I guess you could say "What is the difference in what you see on tv or the movies and real life?"  and the answer would be the same.  It's what you see and filter through your own belief, add intention, and then add some made up stuff for pizzazz for the audience, and there you have it.  Art.
Quote
Thank you for your time.
You're welcome.
Logged
The Astral Pulse
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 00:19:19 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

 Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 01:13:54 »

Thank you CFTraveler for responding.
The first part of my post is a fraction of a thought that didn't completely
make it onto the page, my apologies.
what i meant to say was more along the lines of " The idea of magic seems a little
silly to me but i would like to give it a fair chance and know more about it."

As for your responses to my questions:

1) If there is or is not a "god" is a completely new discussion so i will just except
     what your saying for the time being.

2) OK.

3) I read an article about "chaos magic" that said that objects are just used to implant a thought or desire into the subconscious and the subconscious some how takes the desire and projects it into reality while in a trance or something of the like, is that what you mean?

4) But what about things like metaphysics thats sort of a science isn't it?

5) So there is no line? Just what your mind is capable of conceiving?

Thank you.
Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 03:05:32 »

Thank you CFTraveler for responding.
The first part of my post is a fraction of a thought that didn't completely
make it onto the page, my apologies.
what i meant to say was more along the lines of " The idea of magic seems a little
silly to me but i would like to give it a fair chance and know more about it."

As for your responses to my questions:

1) If there is or is not a "god" is a completely new discussion so i will just except
     what your saying for the time being.
  In this case God is a label I like- but you can use the term 'creative power' and it serves the purpose.

 smiley
Quote
3) I read an article about "chaos magic" that said that objects are just used to implant a thought or desire into the subconscious and the subconscious some how takes the desire and projects it into reality while in a trance or something of the like, is that what you mean?
No, that's a technique, and I'm talking about a principle- if you have creative power (let's take that as a 'given' just for this thread) and so does everyone else (we are all one, so we are all creators) so you live in a sea of creative possibilities- so if you have a high amount of people who are not conscious or are disconnected from their creativity, they are not effectively shaping their destiny.  So if you become aware that you do have this creative power, and learn to channel it, then what gives the object the 'magic' is you:  The object now reminds you of what you programmed it to do, so it begins to have an effect on the outcome of your life.  Now, the object is not controlling you, it's reminding you of your creative potential, which in turn is unleashed.  By you, not it.  Now, most magical practicioners will go one step further and imbue this object with this power- but the power came from the creative principle of the universe, through you, and if the object also has a symbolic value (that is, a symbol given to it by the culture that made it) then that symbolic value will affect the person that it comes into contact with.  Let's use a familiar symbol:  I'll use a cross for cultural reasons.  The cross has different meanings for different people, but for me it may have a protective symbology-even though some branches of christianity use it to instill guilt, others use it as a protective symbol (for example, in old vampire movies, Dracula always cowered away) so I consider it protective, and if I'm unconscious I just take it as protective on it's own terms.  But my interpretation of it would be that I'm conditioned to consider it protective, so when I put it on it reminds me of being protected, and this taps into my connection to the creative principle, and I unwittingly give it protective powers.  So in a way the object has acquired a protective programming, but in reality it was my blind belief (or subconscious programming, if you will) that gave it the power.
When you do magic you can then choose an object with symbolic value.  That way it's not just your own personal relationship with it that gives it the power, but the subconscious reaction of anyone else that comes into contact with it.  And that makes it more powerful.  But you see, the power isn't really on the object, it was always from the user/magician.
Quote
4) But what about things like metaphysics thats sort of a science isn't it?
It's a sort of science because experiencers get together and compare notes and make predictions, etc., but it's not a science because the evidence is largely anecdotal, and subjective at that.
Quote
5) So there is no line? Just what your mind is capable of conceiving?
Not so much, because the laws of physics and probabilities have an effect on the outcome, and also it depends on the belief of the collective unconscious at large, which is constantly changing.  So it's all a matter of degree.  There seems to be a popularization of the idea of creativity as a natural outcome of being human, so we might find that if enough humans start believing in magic the world may get even weirder than it already is.
Quote
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 03:29:43 »

CFTraveler, thank you for your response.

3) I'm not sure of the philosophy behind your ideas but i understand.

4) OK.

5) So the only thing stopping me from say shooting laser beams out of my eyes is the collective unconscious? How would probability and physics affect magic? as you said before magic is not a science
so how could scientific rules affect it. Science is the study of the natural world right? the study of the normal and not the paranormal?

Thank you for your time.
Logged
The Astral Pulse
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 03:29:43 »



 Logged
MisterJingo
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1352


44977578 misterjingo misterjingo
View Profile
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 10:37:37 »

I’ll try answering your questions based upon my past experience with ceremonial magick of various sorts.
1) What is the source of magic and in what way is it controlled?

The traditional source of magic was/is the mind. The world view of a system which incorporates such beliefs usually sees the mind and reality as indistinguishable. More often than not, objective reality is some form of cohesive group creation in the greater spectrum of consciousness. With this view, the mind – with intent, could effect change in physical reality. Ceremonial objects, incantations, and ceremonies are usually a means of moving the mind into a specific receptive state – which will allow the intent of the magic to manifest in reality.

Quote
2) What uses does magic have? Both good and bad?

If you believe in magic, it can literally do anything you desire – although with the above world view, one must first counteract the accumulative beliefs of the other minds in this reality structure. This is usually the reason given for people not seeing miraculous things on a daily basis.
I’d also make the point that magic in this sense would purely be change, any good or bad labels would be relative to the observer.

Quote
4) Is there a large difference between science and magic, or is magic just another branch of science?

This is the crux of a very big problem. Either reality is a mind construct, which would render science as just another belief system. Or reality has some objective basis (whatever that might be), and the reason magic isn’t prevalent is because it has little to no effect outside transformation of the person evoking the magic.
The fact the mind is geared to decipher reality based upon internal desires – to the extent that falsehoods can actively be believed and seen, makes this an area which is very difficult to reach any conclusions on.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 10:39:31 by MisterJingo » Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 16:50:14 »

Hi MJ.
Back to the question of the moment:
Quote
5) So the only thing stopping me from say shooting laser beams out of my eyes is the collective unconscious?
Maybe.  As Mr. Jingo said, I'm presupposing for this thread that reality is completely a product of the collective consciousness.  But even as such, the laws of probability and physics also have to apply, because as such are observable, and by definition (for the purposes of this thread) the product of the collective unconscious.  So it's limitations would apply.  Since I have never seen human irises start becoming incandescent, I would say that probability goes down of this being possible.  Question is, how does shooting laser beams out of your eyes violate known physical laws?
Another way to answer this, is, if your intention of shooting laser beams out of your eyes is a burning desire, (let's say for the purpose of burning a house or scaring someone else) your intention may set events in motion to have the above effects desired without violating such laws, in more probable ways, such as having the light shine 'just so' to temporarily give the effect and scaring someone, or something else....you get my drift.

Quote
How would probability and physics affect magic? as you said before magic is not a science
, no, but it's a technique that uses the creative potential of the individual to achieve it's ends.  So, since we are talking about physical laws (physics and probabilities) they have to be gotten around also, and that would take a focusing power that is greater than most individuals can come up with.
So, if you want to fly, you still need a physical conveyance or some astral projectin', because the chance of defying gravity (gravity and probability as physical laws) by sheer will is probably not going to happen.

I hope this wasn't confusing and I didn't offend anyone who claims to levitate themselves, etc.
Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 17:55:31 »

Hi MisterJingo

1) So the mind is the connection between the collective unconscious (i.e. god) and the practitioner, and through that
connection magic is performed?

2) So the limitations to magic are only what the practitioner and the collective unconscious put on it?

4) How does magic have little or no effect other then transformation of the practitioner? If reality is a construct of the mind
then shouldn't things the mind alters effect everyone involved in the construction of reality?

5) So you are saying why use magic when you could accomplish your desires just as easily by physical means?
   or using illusions to accomplish goals the way Chris Angel amazes audiences?


Forgotten Purpose
Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 18:37:47 »

FP wrote: 
Quote
4) How does magic have little or no effect other then transformation of the practitioner? If reality is a construct of the mind
then shouldn't things the mind alters effect everyone involved in the construction of reality?
It depends, because magic also works to put the practicioner in line (or in communication) with it's Higher Self, which then may alter it's perception of what it wants.  So everyone involved has to be in agreement with the constuction of this reality, at least at a 'higher' level.
But of course this is theoretical and completely my opinion.

Quote
5) So you are saying why use magic when you could accomplish your desires just as easily by physical means?
   or using illusions to accomplish goals the way Chris Angel amazes audiences?
This is also my opinion: To test to see if it works, and because it is fun, and also because it can be a learning experience.
Logged
MisterJingo
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1352


44977578 misterjingo misterjingo
View Profile
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 18:57:02 »

Hey CF and Forgotten Purpose,

Hi MisterJingo

1) So the mind is the connection between the collective unconscious (i.e. god) and the practitioner, and through that
connection magic is performed?

In such philosophies, the mind, the collective unconscious and the practitioner are all borne of the same conscious stuff. Why consciousness takes such a fractured form is explained differently depending upon the philosophy or belief system.

Quote
2) So the limitations to magic are only what the practitioner and the collective unconscious put on it?

A better way of seeing this is that reality is the limitation enforced by some form of collective consciousness. Magic in such terms would be anything conceivable (or not) outside of this reality construct. Keep in mind that even concepts themselves, such as reality, are part of the construct.

Quote
4) How does magic have little or no effect other then transformation of the practitioner? If reality is a construct of the mind
then shouldn't things the mind alters effect everyone involved in the construction of reality?

In my previous post I mentioned either reality is a total construct of the mind (in which science has no reality outside of collective belief), or that the mind is a product of some external reality which we perceive through internal reconstruction based upon our limited sensory input. In this later view, only our internal experience of reality is a product of the mind, external reality would be independent. In such a view, magical belief would simply be a means of altering ones view of the world, rather than altering the actual world. In the other view (reality being the stuff of consciousness), magical belief would allow for (perceived) external reality to be changed.

Quote
5) So you are saying why use magic when you could accomplish your desires just as easily by physical means?
   or using illusions to accomplish goals the way Chris Angel amazes audiences?

Forgotten Purpose

As above, it’s more a case of reality is what created us, or we are what created reality. If we created reality, then there’s no reason why we shouldn’t use this creative belief to alter reality. But if didn’t, then we could spend a lifetime hoping for things which would never come Smiley. The problem is, how do you determin the nature of reality to allow you to chose one belief or the other?
Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 23:55:13 »

Quote
It depends, because magic also works to put the practitioner in line (or in communication) with it's Higher Self, which then may alter it's perception of what it wants.  So everyone involved has to be in agreement with the construction of this reality, at least at a 'higher' level.
But of course this is theoretical and completely my opinion.

How would your higher self change your perception? If the only connection to reality is with your "lower"
self and is of you wouldn't the views be the same? Or does the higher self also have sensory type organs with which to perceive what we call reality? Well, what is a higherself exactly?

Quote
This is also my opinion: To test to see if it works, and because it is fun, and also because it can be a learning experience.

Test tricking people with illusions? I think thats been done. But i really have no choice when it comes to illusions or magic because as far as i know i cannot perform magic.

Quote
In such philosophies, the mind, the collective unconscious and the practitioner are all borne of the same conscious stuff. Why consciousness takes such a fractured form is explained differently depending upon the philosophy or belief system.

OK, is there any know way to test philosophies such as these? How is the conscious fractured?
What are the names of these philosophies? Do you have any experience with them?

Quote
A better way of seeing this is that reality is the limitation enforced by some form of collective consciousness. Magic in such terms would be anything conceivable (or not) outside of this reality construct. Keep in mind that even concepts themselves, such as reality, are part of the construct.

So reality is a limitation to magic which is a way to bypass physical limitations? But if magic and reality are of the same thing (i.e. the collective unconscious) wouldn't they cancel each other out?
An example would be if i wanted to pick up a box or something with my hand and my other hand is stopping it wouldn't i just remove the hand holding the other one back?

Quote
In my previous post I mentioned either reality is a total construct of the mind (in which science has no reality outside of collective belief), or that the mind is a product of some external reality which we perceive through internal reconstruction based upon our limited sensory input. In this later view, only our internal experience of reality is a product of the mind, external reality would be independent. In such a view, magical belief would simply be a means of altering ones view of the world, rather than altering the actual world. In the other view (reality being the stuff of consciousness), magical belief would allow for (perceived) external reality to be changed.

If reality is a total construct of the mind it would seem completely reasonable to be able to alter it with the mind, but if it isn't and reality is the creator of the mind and we perceive and reconstruct it internally
then it wouldn't make sense to be able to alter reality to affect things outside the mind. If a witchdoctor puts a curse on a victim and the victim later dies that would be using magic to effect something on the outside of your mind. We know reality isn't what individuals perceive it to be because we can identify things in common like colors and objects.
Logged
MisterJingo
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1352


44977578 misterjingo misterjingo
View Profile
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 09:01:36 »

Quote
OK, is there any know way to test philosophies such as these?

The only true way would be to find reproducible evidence of ‘magic’.

Quote
How is the conscious fractured?

If the totality of everything was simply a formation in some conscious field, in an un-fractured state, there would simply be uniformity. The fact we have various constructs (universe, matter, energy, etc) and more so, we have created constructs to describe these constructs, uniformity does not exist.
Philosophies allude to this uniformity as the ‘source’, ‘god’ etc.

Quote
What are the names of these philosophies? Do you have any experience with them?

Most religious, spiritual, and mystical beliefs have at their core such a fracturing – the event is simply described differently. From the Abrahamic God creating the universe with a word, and then creating structures to support life, to the various models of the astral, with the source fracturing itself – remaining pure at the core, and crystallising into denser matter as one ‘travels’ further from the source – until physical matter arises.

Quote
So reality is a limitation to magic which is a way to bypass physical limitations?

If you have such beliefs, physical limitations, by definition, are enforced rules for creating a kind of order in ‘physical reality’. Why this order was created, and by whom, once again varies from belief to belief. In this context, magic would be finding a way to bypass these rules.

Quote
But if magic and reality are of the same thing (i.e. the collective unconscious) wouldn't they cancel each other out?
An example would be if i wanted to pick up a box or something with my hand and my other hand is stopping it wouldn't i just remove the hand holding the other one back?

In such an example, it wouldn’t just be your hand holding the other one back. It would be the accumulative belief of every living thing which has such rules of reality ingrained in them.

Quote
If reality is a total construct of the mind it would seem completely reasonable to be able to alter it with the mind,

Agreed - but there is an addition to it being a total construct of the mind: it is a total construct of everyone’s mind.

Quote
but if it isn't and reality is the creator of the mind and we perceive and reconstruct it internally then it wouldn't make sense to be able to alter reality to affect things outside the mind.

This might be one of these reasons why after thousands of years, we are still talking about the possibility of such things, with no conclusive proof.

Quote
If a witchdoctor puts a curse on a victim and the victim later dies that would be using magic to effect something on the outside of your mind.

Firstly, everyone dies. So it would be hard to say for certain if the curse finished the victim off, or if they just died as they would have done regardless.
Secondly, if the victim believes in curse, he could effect change in himself which would ultimately lead to his death i.e. the witch doctor didn’t change reality, he simply changed someone else’s beliefs in a very negative way - leading to the victim changing themselves with the belief.

Quote
We know reality isn't what individuals perceive it to be because we can identify things in common like colors and objects.

The problem with colours is that we attribute names to specific perceived wavelengths (colours), so we can all point to blue or red. But we can never know if our brains interpretation of such wavelengths are the same in each of us.
Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2007, 17:34:49 »

Since MJ already answered most questions, I'll just add to these:
Quote
How would your higher self change your perception? If the only connection to reality is with your "lower"
self and is of you wouldn't the views be the same? Or does the higher self also have sensory type organs with which to perceive what we call reality? Well, what is a higherself exactly?
I'm not sure why my (or anyone's) Higher Self's only connection to physical reality be through my lower self- In theory the Higher Self can be many things depending on the belief system (the soul, that part of you that goes on, the part of you that is closest to God, the totality of all your possible experience, etc.) but for purposes of this discussion I would say the Higher Self is the part of you that has access to all experience, not only the physical, so by definition is going to know more than your lower self about what is 'better' for you, or how it affects the rest of the collective, etc.   Since the HS is really a part of you (or version of you) that  has access to more experience, including nonphysical, sensory organs are a kind of simplistic way of describing something that may not apply-information is not necessarily physical in the way matter is, but that's another thread.   If I wanted to get into physical descriptions, I'd say it's an 'energy field that perceives disturbances to itself caused by anything that is other than self, that exists both in and out of the timespace continuum'but someone's described the way we perceive when we're out of body that same way, so it's hard to try to describe something like that.


Quote
Test tricking people with illusions? I think thats been done. But i really have no choice when it comes to illusions or magic because as far as i know i cannot perform magic.
No, learning how to manifest what you want in your life and practicing it, and see if it works for you.  I'm not talking about learning how to perform parlor tricks, I'm talking about learning the do's and don'ts of manifestation, and applying it to your own life.  The worst that can happen is it doesn't work, and you learn a lesson.  The best is that it works, and your life is improved.
Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 17:50:15 »

Quote
if the totality of everything was simply a formation in some conscious field, in an un-fractured state, there would simply be uniformity. The fact we have various constructs (universe, matter, energy, etc) and more so, we have created constructs to describe these constructs, uniformity does not exist.
Philosophies allude to this uniformity as the source, ‘god’ etc.

So the evidence would point to reality being the creator of the mind? or is the "source" just not perfect?

Quote
Most religious, spiritual, and mystical beliefs have at their core such a fracturing – the event is simply described differently. From the Abrahamic God creating the universe with a word, and then creating structures to support life, to the various models of the astral, with the source fracturing itself – remaining pure at the core, and crystallising into denser matter as one ‘travels’ further from the source – until physical matter arises.

So then everything is just part of the "source" and the closer you get to the core of existence the more stable and unfractured it becomes?

If everything is part of the "source" then where does the collective unconscious come into play? is it the source? or if not then reality is either of the source or of the collective unconscious it cant be of both.

Quote
Agreed - but there is an addition to it being a total construct of the mind: it is a total construct of everyone's mind.

Then if the collective unconscious creates or molds reality as we know it, then where does the source come into play? No offense but i think you're going in circles.

Quote
Firstly, everyone dies. So it would be hard to say for certain if the curse finished the victim off, or if they just died as they would have done regardless.
Secondly, if the victim believes in curse, he could effect change in himself which would ultimately lead to his death i.e. the witch doctor didn't change reality, he simply changed someone Else's beliefs in a very negative way - leading to the victim changing themselves with the belief.

But there have been complete skeptics that have been down by magic or so I've read. So either some where along the line they changed their beliefs radically or magic doesn't need to effect the other persons beliefs.

Thank you for your time,

Forgotten Purpose


Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 18:01:55 »

My apologies CFTraveler, you posted while I was writing my post and I didn't Reply to you.

Quote
I'm not sure why my (or anyone's) Higher Self's only connection to physical reality be through my lower self- In theory the Higher Self can be many things depending on the belief system (the soul, that part of you that goes on, the part of you that is closest to God, the totality of all your possible experience, etc.) but for purposes of this discussion I would say the Higher Self is the part of you that has access to all experience, not only the physical, so by definition is going to know more than your lower self about what is 'better' for you, or how it affects the rest of the collective, etc.   Since the HS is really a part of you (or version of you) that  has access to more experience, including nonphysical, sensory organs are a kind of simplistic way of describing something that may not apply-information is not necessarily physical in the way matter is, but that's another thread.   If I wanted to get into physical descriptions, I'd say it's an 'energy field that perceives disturbances to itself caused by anything that is other than self, that exists both in and out of the timespace continuum'but someone's described the way we perceive when we're out of body that same way, so it's hard to try to describe something like that.

Hmm, that is certainly food for thought. You can get in touch with this higher self by meditation? And it may be that your higher self is what is responsible for allowing people to see with clairvoyance?

Quote
No, learning how to manifest what you want in your life and practicing it, and see if it works for you.  I'm not talking about learning how to perform parlor tricks, I'm talking about learning the do's and don'ts of manifestation, and applying it to your own life.  The worst that can happen is it doesn't work, and you learn a lesson.  The best is that it works, and your life is improved.

Manifesting things by way of magic? Like with ritualistic or ceremonial magic?
I'm not sure that option is available to me as I have never attempted anything mystical outside a few attempts at an OBE.

Forgotten Purpose
Logged
MisterJingo
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1352


44977578 misterjingo misterjingo
View Profile
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 18:39:43 »

Quote
So the evidence would point to reality being the creator of the mind?

At this point in time it is all conjecture. All these beliefs and constructs of reality might have some truth, or might be absolutely wrong. They are mans attempt to draw meaning from the universe based upon what evidence is currently available, and until recent times, deciphered through mans own mystical systems.
There seems to be more evidence pointing towards reality being the creator of the mind – but only if one is totally rational and demands objective proof of anything which seems to bend or break the laws of physics.

Quote
or is the "source" just not perfect?

If the source did exist, attributing concepts to it (such as perfect) would be meaningless, as such concepts would only have meaning outside the source, and in an environment which had the sufficient complexity to comprehend such things i.e. perfection is a signifier relative to the observer.

Quote
If everything is part of the "source" then where does the collective unconscious come into play? is it the source? or if not then reality is either of the source or of the collective unconscious it cant be of both.

The collective consciousness would be some form of structure built from the stuff of the source, in such a view, reality would then be a creation of the collective consciousness, built from the stuff of the source i.e. for whatever reason some form of intelligent consciousness or consciousnesses spawned from the source, from these beings, various realities were created, one of which we inhabit.

Quote
Then if the collective unconscious creates or molds reality as we know it, then where does the source come into play?

As above, the source is simply the structure in which everything forms/is created. It is part of the creator and created.

Quote
No offense but i think you're going in circles.

Non-taken. I’m simply going over beliefs (not necessarily my own) which are used to support magic.

Quote
But there have been complete skeptics that have been down by magic or so I've read.
So either some where along the line they changed their beliefs radically or magic doesn't need to effect the other persons beliefs.

I’d be interesting in hearing about skeptics who have changed their beliefs to the opposite direction.
My previous example about beliefs being affected was a means of describing how one person can inflict seemingly magical events on another through natural means with no distortion of reality – although both parties might be convinced there was. Derren Brown has shown such things many times, such as completely controlling a woman by manipulating a doll. She believed he was magically controlling her, so she allowed herself to be controlled seemingly against her own conscious will. But Derren was simply utilising her own belief is such magic to make her do whatever he wanted.

As I mentioned above, these are not necessarily beliefs I hold, but they are the beliefs which are have been used to explain the existence and mechanism of magick.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 18:43:47 by MisterJingo » Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 23:27:50 »

Quote
At this point in time it is all conjecture. All these beliefs and constructs of reality might have some truth, or might be absolutely wrong. They are mans attempt to draw meaning from the universe based upon what evidence is currently available, and until recent times, deciphered through mans own mystical systems.
There seems to be more evidence pointing towards reality being the creator of the mind – but only if one is totally rational and demands objective proof of anything which seems to bend or break the laws of physics.

OK.

Quote
If the source did exist, attributing concepts to it (such as perfect) would be meaningless, as such concepts would only have meaning outside the source, and in an environment which had the sufficient complexity to comprehend such things i.e. perfection is a signifier relative to the observer.

Attributing such concepts is only for the benefit of the observer. This is true. I was just attempting to translate the concept into some more familiar words. I wouldn't call it useless.

Quote
The collective consciousness would be some form of structure built from the stuff of the source, in such a view, reality would then be a creation of the collective consciousness, built from the stuff of the source i.e. for whatever reason some form of intelligent consciousness or consciousnesses spawned from the source, from these beings, various realities were created, one of which we inhabit.

OK.

Quote
I’d be interesting in hearing about skeptics who have changed their beliefs to the opposite direction.
My previous example about beliefs being affected was a means of describing how one person can inflict seemingly magical events on another through natural means with no distortion of reality – although both parties might be convinced there was. Derren Brown has shown such things many times, such as completely controlling a woman by manipulating a doll. She believed he was magically controlling her, so she allowed herself to be controlled seemingly against her own conscious will. But Derren was simply utilising her own belief is such magic to make her do whatever he wanted.

I do not know any skeptics that have gone through such a transformation personally, but it was more of an example of what would have to happen for magic to be effective on a skeptic and still keep inside the Idea that reality is the creator of the mind.

[quoteI’m simply going over beliefs (not necessarily my own) which are used to support magic.
][/quote]

OK, but what are your very own ideas that support magic? As i think you said earlier you are a practitioner
of ceremonial magics?
Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2007, 21:12:36 »

Hello? You guys still there? Its been a few days since I last heard from you. Anyone else wanna get in on the discussion?
Logged
wow_nonamesleft
Astral Energy 2
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 87


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2007, 15:44:57 »

I wouldn't mind trying to give this a go.  I'll just say what I think magic is and anything I think might have been a case of "magic".

  To me magic is making what you want happen and that can be pretty much anything, however I do believe that you can't break the laws of the universe, but you can make it seem so. Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality.
  I think something connected to magic is changing the way you look at life. I have a friend that thinks god and satan "speak" to him, though not audiable but by "showing" him things, just everday things but with some message in it(details aren't important). I have actually experienced a few messages with him and the only way I could understand is if he points it out.
  He says he also hears messages in music, but they are different from god/satan messages(universe speaking).  I personally experienced one recently and 'saw' it.
I said "I have to go"
    *he just finished picking a random song as i finish my line*
Then few seconds later... bam the lyrics go "you don't have to go".
I went home anyways ignoring it... as I get home I realize I dont have my key and I'm wating there for like an hour until my dad returns.  I felt strange ignoring it, the universe was speaking to me... 
So how does that relate to 'magic'? Well, songs (particularly rap/ r and b) are like his way of hearing from the universe, actually I think the term is "medium" and messages/answers are spoken thru music to him, as for me only when I'm with him I notice this.
 Here is an example of a spell- My brother told me about this and I'm pretty sure its from the book called 'Conversations with God'.
Its called the "I want" spell and its negative. When you say you want something your spell has been cast, so that is what you get a 'I want'. Want is the absence of something.  Personally think about this a see how it effects you, maybe start changing 'I want' into being thankful for what you have " I am thankful for having enough food today" or " I am happy that I have enough money today".  Since many people here are for having astral projections, lucid dreams and all that, change the 'I want' to I'll have a 'insert' tonight.  In matter of fact when I was telling a friend about this, he told me " when you told me I'll have a lucid dream I did"(he was having a hard time going lucid and I was trying to help him out).

There are lots of books on magic, like the one I have said earlier Conversations with God, but another one is called The Four Agreements and I'll list them here-
Be Impeccable With Your Word , Don’t Take Anything Personally ,Don’t Make Assumptions  and Always Do Your Best . If your not interested in getting the book some people have written reviews on it and you can get a better understanding that way. A book doesnt have to be specifically about "magic" it just has to do with how you can shape your reality and as I said "Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality".

Pretty random I guess  cheesy but w.e.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 14:39:50 by wow_nonamesleft » Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2007, 02:10:39 »

Hi guys I'm back, at least for a little while.
Quote
Then if the collective unconscious creates or molds reality as we know it, then where does the source come into play? No offense but i think you're going in circles.
Some belief systems don't separate the source and the collective unconscious, they're different ways of categorizing what is a whole.  Most mystically minded people come close to this worldview one way or the other.

Quote
I do not know any skeptics that have gone through such a transformation personally, but it was more of an example of what would have to happen for magic to be effective on a skeptic and still keep inside the Idea that reality is the creator of the mind.
  When I studied anthropology, I read many accounts of anthropologists who went to study indigenous cultures and were very sceptical of their sympathetic magical-type religions, and after living with them for some years changed their understanding of reality.  Others remained sceptical but admitted that magic seemed to work, just couldn't figure out how.  That's the only example I know that I would come close to trusting. 
Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2007, 22:36:50 »

Dreadfully sorry for the delay everyone, It has been an emotionally tiresome period in my house. My Dad came to stay with us while my Mom was away on a business trip and lets just say it wasn't pleasant time. The reason I haven't posted is because Dad is a hardcore Christian type of guy and hates these sort of topics.  sad

Anyway enough of the boohoos, on with the show!

Quote
  To me magic is making what you want happen and that can be pretty much anything, however I do believe that you can't break the laws of the universe, but you can make it seem so. Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality.
  I think something connected to magic is changing the way you look at life. I have a friend that thinks god and satan "speak" to him, though not audiable but by "showing" him things, just everday things but with some message in it(details aren't important). I have actually experienced a few messages with him and the only way I could understand is if he points it out.
  He says he also hears messages in music, but they are different from god/satan messages(universe speaking).  I personally experienced one recently and 'saw' it.
I said "I have to go"
    *he just finished picking a random song as i finish my line*
Then few seconds later... bam the lyrics go "you don't have to go".
I went home anyways ignoring it... as I get home I realize I dont have my key and I'm wating there for like an hour until my dad returns.  I felt strange ignoring it, the universe was speaking to me...
So how does that relate to 'magic'? Well, songs (particularly rap/ r and b) are like his way of hearing from the universe, actually I think the term is "medium" and messages/answers are spoken thru music to him, as for me only when I'm with him I notice this.
 Here is an example of a spell- My brother told me about this and I'm pretty sure its from the book called 'Conversations with God'.
Its called the "I want" spell and its negative. When you say you want something your spell has been cast, so that is what you get a 'I want'. Want is the absence of something.  Personally think about this a see how it effects you, maybe start changing 'I want' into being thankful for what you have " I am thankful for having enough food today" or " I am happy that I have enough money today".  Since many people here are for having astral projections, lucid dreams and all that, change the 'I want' to I'll have a 'insert' tonight.  In matter of fact when I was telling a friend about this, he told me " when you told me I'll have a lucid dream I did"(he was having a hard time going lucid and I was trying to help him out).

Well I'm not sure. It is an interesting idea, but I wont rule out coincidence. I have had a similar experiences with music but I would call it coincidence rather then magic but you could be right.

Quote
There are lots of books on magic, like the one I have said earlier Conversations with God, but another one is called The Four Agreements and I'll list them here-
Be Impeccable With Your Word , Don't Take Anything Personally ,Don't Make Assumptions  and Always Do Your Best . If your not interested in getting the book some people have written reviews on it and you can get a better understanding that way. A book doesn't have to be specifically about "magic" it just has to do with how you can shape your reality and as I said "Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality".

Sounds more like self help books but if you have some links I'd be willing to take a look.

and to CFTraveler

Quote
Some belief systems don't separate the source and the collective unconscious, they're different ways of categorizing what is a whole.  Most mystically minded people come close to this worldview one way or the other.

Then we would have to have some direct connection to "The Source" in order to change reality.
And Then that would rule out that we change reality, To suggest that a divine creator can be manipulated by its creation is
blasphemy on some level

Quote
When I studied anthropology, I read many accounts of anthropologists who went to study indigenous cultures and were very sceptical of their sympathetic  religions, and after living with them for some years changed their understanding of reality.  Others remained sceptical but admitted that magic seemed to work, just couldn't figure out how.  That's the only example I know that I would come close to trusting.

Im beginning to think that magic is a manifestation of desire mixed with a strong sense of belief because certainly all religions have preformed a miracle or two.

what I still am eager to know is the mechanics of the thing.

You guys have suggested the possibility of the collective unconscious or the "source" being the creators of reality. You have suggested that   
they are one and the same. I do not think we were created by a sentient being because of the fact in order to consciously practice magic we would have to reach through the "source" to achieve our desires. It would make the source something of a cosmic whore and as a sentient being i dint think it would appreciate being used.

So that leaves the possibility of the collective unconscious being the source of reality and magic. Of that I require more thinking time.
Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2007, 23:24:15 »

Quote
Then we would have to have some direct connection to "The Source" in order to change reality.
That is the basis for most forms of magic/manifesting.  That we are all one, therefore connected to the Source/God

Quote
And Then that would rule out that we change reality, To suggest that a divine creator can be manipulated by its creation is
blasphemy on some level
It is only blasphemy if you think/believe that God is a anthropomorphic being that has attributes such as pride and insecurity and needs to be separate from us.  This is a human need, and a symptom of limitation.  If the source has designed creation to be creator it is not manipulation it it's negative connotation, but the utilization of natural laws that are being used to what they're supposed to be used as-creation.  In other words, if God designed us to create, creating isn't blasphemous, it's just what we're supposed to do.  And if "God" is in charge, then we can't do anything but.  And if "God" isn't in charge, then it's not God- it's 'a' God.
Logged
Forgotten_Purpose
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2007, 22:23:42 »

Sorry for the wait.

Quote
hat is the basis for most forms of magic/manifesting.  That we are all one, therefore connected to the Source/God

Then what is the connection and why do we have one?

Quote
It is only blasphemy if you think/believe that God is a anthropomorphic being that has attributes such as pride and insecurity and needs to be separate from us.  This is a human need, and a symptom of limitation.  If the source has designed creation to be creator it is not manipulation it it's negative connotation, but the utilization of natural laws that are being used to what they're supposed to be used as-creation.  In other words, if God designed us to create, creating isn't blasphemous, it's just what we're supposed to do.  And if "God" is in charge, then we can't do anything but.  And if "God" isn't in charge, then it's not God- it's 'a' God.


Most if not all the gods of our many religions are VERY human-like. I know you can argue that Humans "created" the gods in our holy books but for example if Christianity was the truth I imagine that Jesus wouldn't like being used that like that.
Logged
CFTraveler
Guest
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2007, 20:55:02 »

Sorry for the wait.

Then what is the connection and why do we have one?
The connection was explained already- We are the parts of God (or extensions of God) that were designed by God to create.  It's why we were made and it's what we do.  Whether we know it or not.  If we create unconsciously, it's called "coincidence".  If we create consciously, it's called 'manifesting', or 'magic'.


Quote
Most if not all the gods of our many religions are VERY human-like. I know you can argue that Humans "created" the gods in our holy books but for example if Christianity was the truth I imagine that Jesus wouldn't like being used that like that.
In the first place, most of the religions that turned out to be anthropomorphic didn't start out like that- if you study history you'll see that most politheistic religions started out as mystically revealed forms of thought with made 'the source' into an abstract unmanifested idea (such as the 'Atman' in Hinduism, to use one for an example) and when they were taught to the 'uneducated masses' all manifestations of 'God' became many gods, because that's how people understood them.  So you see, politheistic religions which anthromorphized their gods had a basic understanding that these 'humanlike' gods were really just manifestations of a more abstract 'Atman' or 'Brahman'.  The same can be said for the other more well known politheistic religion, the greek religion, in which the people believed in different humanlike gods for different purposes, but the intellectual elite knew better, and didn't believe in these anthropomorphic manifestations as gods themselves.  If not read the ancient Myths of the Titans (who were prior to the Gods)- the further back you go, the more abstract and centralized the idea of 'God' gets.
So it's not that I'm saying it- the founders or creators or those who wrote about these religions at the time said so.

Ps. And speaking of Jesus, why would he 'feel used'?  Jesus is the teacher that taught us "Ask and you will receive" over and over.  It's all over the Bible:  Take a look at the one prayer he taught.  It's a lesson in manifesting.
Logged
zipppy2006
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2008, 00:17:46 »

This is an interesting post.  The way I see "learning to manifest" such things would be getting into prayer and intention.  Maybe faith too?  If the world is a consequence of beliefs both consciously and unconsciously, then changing those beliefs in yourself changes the world in some minute way no?
Logged
The Astral Pulse
   



 Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums


The Astral Pulse Copyright © 2002 - 2014
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM