What is Magick?

[timeborg]

From what I know the word magic is comes from a latin word which roughly translates"from the depths within". It also has alot to do with imagery on the senses ie Image. A mage who is one who makes use of "I"mage. It has alot to do with inner workings. We are all connected in a way to each other and are a miniture universe unto ourselves but our sepratness is linked to the whole of humanities group universe. So in theory if I do some inner plane work it is my bit of the group that effects the whole. If I want to affect another person then I see them in my little universe and sure enough a link is established to the person or situation or object conserned and can affect them/it.Hard to put in words. Belife plays a big role. The same sort of belife that the sun is going to rise in the morning, is the same feeling I must have to make my desires manifest. Will is putting this belife into action. If my will is not strong enough then neither is my belife.
                    What happens within a person affects what is around him and vice versa. The number 8 the symbole(image) of affinity shows how this works. The intersecting lines on the 8 represent a persons conscousness.The loops pass through this affect both the inner and outer. So the situation that happens on one side of the 8 crosses over the point and affects the inner. I dont know how to explain this clearly but it is a personalised view that explain actions on one level affect the other.


Joshcatz

[Fenris]

HI! What a topic!

I started a similar one once and caused a big poo fight!

To me magic broadly is the manipulation of subtle energy to cause change. There are infinate methods at ones disposal to do this and infinate things one can change http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

One can also involve other inteligences to assist in the manipulation of energy (invokation of god/goddess images ect ect ect)

I believe that magic is not difficult, only the human minds limitations create  such a perception, and the average humans limited personal energy. Thus through self development (both energy and mental) it is possible for a human to rise above these limitations. To me this is the goal of magic, and my life. In a sence to become more than human. This goal is also linked to my personal beliefs of reincarnation and the need to evolve to become free of the wheel.

It is my opinion that creating a change in the physical is easily done, but creating a manifestation or demanifestation is not (a change in physical matter). So while it might be easy to make people not notice something (an object for example) it would be really really hard to make it actually disapear. Its a matter can not be destroyed or created physics kind of issue.

By creating a place in the physical which also exists in more subtle realities  ( a 'circle' ) we can use sybolism to create a change within our own mind. Because the more subtle relmes are influenced by the mind and emotion a change is created in this place by our mind alone. The rule of 'as above see below' holds true. The change we create 'up there' filters to the physical reality creating change here too.

This however is complicated by other things. Because personaly I have visualised a change in the physical which has come true without casting a circle or entering a higher relm in any way- just with will. So obviously the physical can be change from within the physical. I have not sorted this out compleatly yet. Maybe someone here has.

regards

David

Veni Vidi Vici

[kakkarot]

mine is the same (almost exactly) as fenris'

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[distant bell]

Fenris-
I agree with you.
The question is if it is possibl to create great changes in the
physical world with magick. I know that the main goal of magick
is development- it´s not the "powers" gained that are the goal.
I have littel experience of any outer form of magick, and the people
I know who are magickans mainly work with the inner plains.
The poeple I knoe put great value on knowledge, and have read
alot on the subject. The interesting thing is that all the great occultist
that I have read books from say that it is extremly difficult to cause
changes to occure in the physiacl world. (Dion fortune, Crowled and many others) So when other people claim that it is easy to make real physical changes in the physical plane- it´s a word agai´nst word matter for me-
and I usually belive the great occultists in these matters. I have never
seen anybody make a change in the physiacll world- I don´t even think
that I know anybody that has seen it..

Of course, making oneselfe invisible ( I can´t do that..) would not
be changing the physicall - it´s only a matter of changing other poples perceptin- and perception is a mental state.

Felix

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

[Fenris]

Distant Bell-

I think we are actually agreeing, we have just confused ourselves with what it means to create a change in the physical.

"Of course, making oneself invisible ( I can´t do that..) would not
be changing the physicall - it´s only a matter of changing other poples perceptin- and perception is a mental state."

From this statement I think I have found where we are getting confused. You see I have writen this from the angle that changes in ones mental state are changes in the physical state. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0> Our perception of the physical world is entirely reliant on our mental state and electrical signals. The two are so intertwined that it gets confusing.

I have seen magic effect the physical world, but did it actually happen or was my mind influenced to see something which did not really change.

For example in my early days of experimentation I changes my eye colour using a simple candle magic spell. Now did the pigment in my eyes really change colour or did I just fool my mind? Is it possible to ever find out- No. Does it make any difference either way-no. Because its still just an electrical signal to the brain, causing the same image no matter how it got there. I would call this a change in the physical, it could just as easily be said that it is a change in the mental. The effect regardless is still the same, using the same sensory system.

But as I said before actually changing matter would be very difficult. But if I work a spell to create a particualr situaltion or opportunity and it works did I not change the physical?

What sort of things do you mean by creating a change in the physical?

regards
David



Veni Vidi Vici

[kakkarot]

lol. stop confusing the poor guy, fenris

yeah for the most part, what you guys are saying is true enough from what i have learned about magick. but what about being able to create a fireball? if you could actually produce flame and burn something with it, then that would definatley NOT be just an illusion of the mind, right?

but if it IS possible to affect the physical world with magick (as i believe it is), then it would be extremely difficult compared to merely creating an illusion of a change. this is why occultists like crowley (sp?) say it is difficult; because they are talking, mostly to beginners rather than powerful "mages". once a person gains enough power in any energy use, doing things that would be considered miracles by the general populace, becomes easier and easier to do.

for instance, when i first started using chi, i could barely even feel it when i was in a trance state. but now, after five years, i feel all the time. plus, when i was just starting out, using chi to recover my legs from physical fatigue was difficult, but now it is something i can do almost as an afterthought.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[distant bell]

The easiest thing to influence with magick should be the own body,
since this is controled by the own  energy body.
Still some great occultists where not even able to shift there own
bodys... Crowley had asthma al his life, and could not get rid
of this with magick but had to take opium.
Dion fortune died of leukimia... If she could have affected
matter with magick, why not cure her disease?

I know that many talk about healing- and yes I belive in it
to, but it seems to be working sometimes and not others..
I would like to know why.

Many people talk about affecting great things in there surrounding
but cann´t even change there own bodies.

Should it not be harder to change the outsid world than shanging the
own body?

Then again many say that magick works badly if it is done with a
egoistic motife- this could explain why outside work is easier.

The problem is that self delusion and hypnosis is wery strong, and to
se something dosn´t have to mean that it exists.
Of course this dosn´t make the magickal act less potent.
It might still have al the power on the individual exposed to it.

If someone manages to change an object- lets say a person, into
a toad- whel that is impressive ! ( and quite evil and stupid.. of course)
I have never seen it, and will remani sceptical until the day I see it.

Atracting events is another thing- I think that this is possible.
When this is done one only has to inlfuence things to do
a certain thing, but always in accordance with there own
possibilitys. It is quite another thing to transform a stone into
a carrot... The stone dosn´t have this ability.
So not even by influencing the stones will you can get this
result. Even if the stone whant´s to turn into a carrot I cann´t.
It is dead..

A living beeing should have greater possibilitys to transform.
As longn as it is within it´s own frame of possibility.




-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

[Ides315]

Hi. all. Good discussion.

Question: Are you really becoming more than human when you assume god form? Or are you only becoming a full human in that you are realizing that wich is all of us, but generally dormat, and largely ignored.

Question:You can't change the rock into a carrot, or vice versa, but if you don't know if there is a rock or carrot there, can you have either? Quantom physics would tell you yes. "Everything is anywhere until it is observed".

It is said that you can't make a change on the physical, but people can heat up water, move objects (insome cases up to 25 kg) with the power of the mind. In my definition psionics is also magick, you are just internal instead of external.

Is the physical all that important in the big picture? Everything comes from or is created on the astral. (That effects the material) If you are strong enough there then changes can be made to the physical.

If you can influence someones decision making process and a different chain of events happens, aren't you directly influencing the physical. even if the results are somewhat unpredictable without careful planning?

Just some thoughts

[Grenade01]

ack to much to read hahah

I dont believe in outright physical magic (ie moving stuff / changing weather and such... if someone was that powerful, then I dont think they would be displaying it for others to see...)
I do believe ritual magic works..but then its hard and takes at least 2 or 3 years just to learn and fully understand/use a ritual to its fullest potential. and even then its more of an inner thing.
Im a very practical and skeptical person....I know NEW and OBE's are real, but only because I've experienced it.  Even when meeting them with a bit of skeptacism, I still successfully did each quite easily.  I dont think you can just say, cause it to rain like just like that, even if you had no doubt in your mind you could, because even with doubt and fear, I was easily able to progress in NEW and OBE's quite fast as long as I had desire to.

[][][] <-- boxes --> [][][]

[distant bell]

Yes, psionics should be a branch of magick. In New Age there
is much talk about people doing a lot of wierd things and having
loads of strange powers- but what it all comes down to is this-
I have never seen anybody move a stone with mind power.
I have read loads of books about magick writen by people who claim
to be magickans and claim to have been it for many years, and none
of them calim to have any of these extraordianry powers.

When you assume a god form in meditation, I belive that you only draw down
the energy that is asociated with that god. If you assume a god form in  a ritual, the god might actually come  through alot stronger, and be as storng
or stronger then you. i.e. the ordianry person might in a way dissaper for a while to give way for the god.
Bet then again that´s a long discussion..


"If you can influence someones decision making process and a different chain of events happens, aren't you directly influencing the physical. "

In a way yes, but it is still in conformity with the possibilitys of the things you affect. You affect the will of a person, and then that person moves it´s machin the body.

Felix


-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

[SteppenWolf]

Guys -

You just have to read "Autobiography of a Yogi" to hear about some serious physical magic which some of those super-hi-level yogis could get up to.  Not the kinds of things ordinary people could aspire to but it seems there is limit yet found to human potential.

Now online:   http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/


Also if you're interested in real magic, it's worth looking at these 2 books:

"Initiation Into Hermetics: A Course of Instruction in Magic Theory and Practice"
by Franz Bardon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1885928068

"Modern Magick : Eleven Lessons in the High Magickal Arts"
by Donald Michael Kraig
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875423248

Cheers!  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

[timeborg]

I would have to agree with steppenwolf about franz bardons book"initation to hermetics" I have gotten up the the 6th step and found out that if u have the paitence and perciverance physical change can happen. Have been studying this book for a long time and highly reccommend it if anyone is seriously wanting to produce result. Steppenwolf how did u go with it??

Joshcatz

[kakkarot]

i disagree that psionics is a branch of magick. psionics has to do with powers of the mind. magick has to do with powers that the spirit uses.

"In New Age there
is much talk about people doing a lot of wierd things and having
loads of strange powers- but what it all comes down to is this-
I have never seen anybody move a stone with mind power." what about in the old age too? in the bible it talks of egyptian socerers turning staffs into snakes and back again.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[PeacefulWarrior]

Nobody probably cares, but I don't like the word "magick" I think it has negative connotations.  I prefer...well, I don't know what to call it.. magick?  jk  I do think it's time to come up with a better term.  I guess the only way to accomplish that will be to break a thousand years of tradition and come out with a best selling new age book with all kinds of "never before seen" esoteric knowledge and call magick something else throughout it..that's REAL likely to happen eh?

fides quaerens intellectum

[kakkarot]

daniel: how about the "Manipulation Of Physical": M.O.P.!
or "Manipulation of Energy": M.O.E.    j/k

distant bell: ya, logically, being able to affect the body should be easiest, but i am beginning to think that it may have to do with one's over all perception of the world. for instance, i have an easy time using chi on myself because i am extremely self orientated (and i was extremely introverted when i was first learning how to use chi), and i find it easy to use chi to affect things on a "grand" scale, and my focus in life tends to be towards the "grand scheme". however i find it hard to do things on a minor external scale (like knocking cups over), and i tend to overlook or not care about minor events in life. does anyone else find this to be the case?

also, don't take magick to be some sort of thing that can do anything. it CAN do anything, within the limits of the user's mind. some find it easier to use energies to heal, other find it easier to use energies to hurt. some find energies easier to use to affect the physical, others find energies easier to use to manipulate the spiritual. some find it easier to affect the self, others find it easier to affect others. it, as far as i can tell, mostly depends upon how a person thinks, the type of person they are, and where their focus in life lies.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[naphere]

I was thinking affecting your body versus affecting the physical.
besides from just yogi and energy work say you were to cure an illness.
compare this to using telekinesis to move a rock. the analogy of a scalpel
vs. a sledge hammer comes to mind.  Some people might have brute strength
others might have a greater ability to control the energy and what they do with it but not have as much

[distant bell]

I have realised lately that my owne wiev on magick and it´s
possibilitys seem to be different than others on this forum.
So why not start a topic for a magick discussion!

So here we go!

I belive that magick is a way of evolving on the inner planes,
a way of reaching spiritual strengh and development, not to
change the wather or materialize things.

Magick is WERY difficult, and it is HARD to acheive changes on the
physical plane with magick. It´s not like in the fancy hollywood movies..

Of course you could psychically attac soembody, but that would be rather
on the inner plane then on the outer one- and no seroius magcikan would
do that anyway.. only unmature people do that... and I gues that it will lead them down the left hand path and finally to extiction..

The magickans I know al have the goal of inner development. They are real spiritual people with spiritual goals.



-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --