Are AP worlds *real*?

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shineling

Are the worlds we travel into during an OOBE or AP real?

I ask because I always thought that everything that happened to me in my lucid dreams was a projection of my own mind. I also ask because I can be an obnoxious dreamer and I sometimes play rough with my dreams... playing funny tricks on my dreams to amuse myself.

If I knew for a fact they were REAL... well... lol... that might change my mind about tossing and pushing people around in my dreams. I know it would...

So what is the real story??



"Unbinding the limits on our Soul is man's truest quest."

Chris J.

Everything during a projection is real, no matter how you define "real." The only issue would be if you are creating it or not, and that is true some (or most) of the time.

personalreality

you experience it, it is real
be awesome.

AndrewTheSinger

Maybe they are being created through you. Maybe someone is using your memories to produce a place or a situation that will appear to be real and familiar, or strange and scary. But who could be doing that? You should try to find out, and don't draw conclusions before testing a lot.
Where does this silence come from?

The untold past of the Earth: http://hiddenhistory.awardspace.com

Xanth

I'll be just as vague as everyone else.  :)

You can't spell "reality" without "real".  :D

shineling

#5
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite?  :-P

I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.

For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds.  :evil:

Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...? 

"Unbinding the limits on our Soul is man's truest quest."

WASD

I think it depends on how you define "real". However it will most likely have to same answer as "Is the physical world real"? :)
First and only (classic) OBE so far: 12th August 2009
LDs: Once per week :)

Xanth

Quote from: shineling on September 08, 2010, 16:01:13
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite?  :-P

I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.

For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds.  :evil:

Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...? 
In my opinion, karma is the last thing you need to worry about.  ;)

Re

Quote from: shineling on September 08, 2010, 16:01:13
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite?  :-P

I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.

For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds.  :evil:

Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...? 

If you worry about karma, you must know it's supposed to be affected even by negative feelings and thoughts, not just actions. So it wouldn't matter if it's real!
My humble OBE and LD diary:
http://reasinre.wordpress.com/

BlueTone

          Anything that happens to a person, regardless of where it takes place, will leave a form of impact. that makes it real, to that individual. So if you experience it....Its real to you. Its as simple as that in my mind ^_^....

~Za Hourou Iki


"No mindset, Is the right mindset........Only closed eyes may see the light. "

no_leaf_clover

Everything is real.

Like someone else said above, if you can experience it, it's real.
What is the sound of no leaves cloving?

T.L.

No offense to the original poster but a lucid dream is different than a full blown out of body experience. I'm just putting that out there because it seems in the original post the op seems to make little distinction between the two. Also yes what you do experience is real... but to me that word is useless when you think about it. Thoughts are real because you experience them, emotions are real, the physical world is real... anything you experience first hand is real. The main difference is, whether the thing or place you experienced was created by you or not. I've been to a good amount of places and there was and is no doubt in my mind that those places were completely real. I've had self created experiences before, but even though I may have created a temporary place (purposefully and accidentally) it does not mean they were not real. Once you gain more experiences with full blown out of body experiences perhaps you might come to the same conclusion.

Xanth

Quote from: T.L. on September 25, 2010, 05:11:14
No offense to the original poster but a lucid dream is different than a full blown out of body experience. I'm just putting that out there because it seems in the original post the op seems to make little distinction between the two. Also yes what you do experience is real... but to me that word is useless when you think about it. Thoughts are real because you experience them, emotions are real, the physical world is real... anything you experience first hand is real. The main difference is, whether the thing or place you experienced was created by you or not. I've been to a good amount of places and there was and is no doubt in my mind that those places were completely real. I've had self created experiences before, but even though I may have created a temporary place (purposefully and accidentally) it does not mean they were not real. Once you gain more experiences with full blown out of body experiences perhaps you might come to the same conclusion.
Really? 

I see the only separation between the two experiences as being an illusion created by your own conscious awareness.
People get confused thinking that all these experiences are separate, when the only thing that changes between them all is that conscious awareness and nothing more.   THAT is a pretty strong illusion that you have to get past first.  :)

Naykid

Who knows if it's real or not.  I kinda stopped caring a long time ago.  I learn from the experiences regardless. 

I do know for sure that I'm not that clever to think up all of these different random people and places. And I'm an artist.  You'd think if it was all in our heads that many characters and places would be very similar but not in my case.  Unless I'm visiting the same place, the people and topographies are different.

Xanth

Quote from: Naykid on September 25, 2010, 11:57:19
Who knows if it's real or not.  I kinda stopped caring a long time ago.  I learn from the experiences regardless. 

I do know for sure that I'm not that clever to think up all of these different random people and places. And I'm an artist.  You'd think if it was all in our heads that many characters and places would be very similar but not in my case.  Unless I'm visiting the same place, the people and topographies are different.
My Aikido sensei runs an EFT seminar and he gets people asking if this EFT stuff is real... like some people will come up to him and tell him it's all in their heads.
He tells them... "If it works for someone, why does it matter how or why it works?  The point is that it worked/helped."

That's really my position on this as well, Nay.
Who cares if it's real or not.  Indeed.  :)

T.L.

Quote from: Xanth on September 25, 2010, 11:21:12
Really? 

I see the only separation between the two experiences as being an illusion created by your own conscious awareness.
People get confused thinking that all these experiences are separate, when the only thing that changes between them all is that conscious awareness and nothing more.   THAT is a pretty strong illusion that you have to get past first.  :)

Uh there are huge differences. I used to think that a long time ago (lucid dreams and obes are synonymous)... that is until I had full blown obes.  I've had lucid dreams as a child quite often. So when I heard people talk about astral projection, my first thought was that they just experienced a lucid dream. At times when I attempt a obe I will pass out but later end up in a dream, realize it is a dream and try to end it. When I successfully end a lucid dream I find that I am not really where it appeared to be in the dream but in my bed or close to the general vicinity of the physical body. If these two experiences were identical that would not be the case. When I had my first legit obe, it was entirely different and I knew instantly it was not a lucid dream. As far as the argument about what is real, or not that is just something you have to figure out on your own. After time, and effort esp. if you are going about validations you will find the answer.

Xanth

Quote from: T.L. on September 26, 2010, 05:11:48
Uh there are huge differences. I used to think that a long time ago (lucid dreams and obes are synonymous)... that is until I had full blown obes.  I've had lucid dreams as a child quite often. So when I heard people talk about astral projection, my first thought was that they just experienced a lucid dream. At times when I attempt a obe I will pass out but later end up in a dream, realize it is a dream and try to end it. When I successfully end a lucid dream I find that I am not really where it appeared to be in the dream but in my bed or close to the general vicinity of the physical body. If these two experiences were identical that would not be the case. When I had my first legit obe, it was entirely different and I knew instantly it was not a lucid dream. As far as the argument about what is real, or not that is just something you have to figure out on your own. After time, and effort esp. if you are going about validations you will find the answer.
Well, my experiences are quite contrary to yours then.

My Lucid Dreams are quite easily turned into Astral Projections.  The only thing that changes is my awareness... this is what I feel you're confused about.  You're confusing the change as if it was coming from outside yourself as if the environment itself was somehow different... the area of consciousness that you project in, is the same area of consciousness you lucid dream in, which is ALSO the same area of consciousness that you dream in.  All that changes is *you*.

The ILLUSION is that they're separate environments based upon our limited 'human life' thought patterns.  You have to think outside the box.

But as I said, that's just my experience of them.

Naykid

Quote from: T.L. on September 26, 2010, 05:11:48
Uh there are huge differences. I used to think that a long time ago (lucid dreams and obes are synonymous)... that is until I had full blown obes.  I've had lucid dreams as a child quite often. So when I heard people talk about astral projection, my first thought was that they just experienced a lucid dream. At times when I attempt a obe I will pass out but later end up in a dream, realize it is a dream and try to end it. When I successfully end a lucid dream I find that I am not really where it appeared to be in the dream but in my bed or close to the general vicinity of the physical body. If these two experiences were identical that would not be the case. When I had my first legit obe, it was entirely different and I knew instantly it was not a lucid dream. As far as the argument about what is real, or not that is just something you have to figure out on your own. After time, and effort esp. if you are going about validations you will find the answer.

Would you care to expound on that with some more examples?

Fresco

Its as real as our physical world  (or so experienced AP'ers say)

T.L.

#19
Quote from: Naykid on September 26, 2010, 11:46:17
Would you care to expound on that with some more examples?

ok for example if I am in a lucid dream for example and I'm in a city or wherever I focus on exiting the dream first thing I notice is that the dream will fade out. For a short time everything will be all black like a void, and I'll immediately become aware of the vibrations and normally I'll start seeing from my physical body's perspective like if I laid down on my back I'll be looking at the ceiling as if seeing through my eyelids. From there I exit, other times everything will go like that except I'm already out usually in the same  room.

I notice sometimes people talk about going obe from lucid dreams but it seems they never really exited the lucid dream state, they are trapped inside the dream thinking they are seeing their true surroundings but really aren't. It does happen and when I first started that method from lucid dreams it happened to me a lot. Sure the conscious mind is the same for the most part but there are differences and that was what I was trying to articulate they are not the same exact thing. In one you experience a self creAted reality ( subconsciously or otherwise) in the other you experience realities separate from
yourself. When obe'ing it is possible to have objective experiences with practice.

ZenTraveler

#20
Quote from: shineling on September 08, 2010, 16:01:13
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite?  :-P

I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.

For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds.  :evil:

Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...?  



I can only tell you my experiences with Meditation, OOB, and Astral. This is a culmination of 16 years of practice. The first experience I knew was not just a dream was when I was 10 years old (1980).

It was the middle of the summer in Dana Point (a small beach town on the coast of California). I had been playing with friends all day at the beach, then rode my bicycle home a few miles. I was totally wiped out by the time I got home, and I laid down to take a nap. I was quickly asleep being so tired. I remember almost immediately finding myself in a dream, but I was aware of the dream, which was very odd to me. All my dreams before had just been foggy memories that I struggled to remember once awake. This dream was different in that I immediately realized I was in my own bedroom hovering above my body there deeply asleep. I also felt totally refreshed, even though I knew my body was very tired in reality. I remember feeling a rush of excitement in the instant knowledge of being able to do whatever I wanted, unhindered without a physical body. I quickly wondered if I could fly through the wall, and at that though I instantly did fly through the wall and out into the courtyard in the back of the house. I was even more thrilled that this apparent existence appeared to be without physical rules. I quickly flew over the roof of the unattached bedroom, past the power lines, and directly into the elementary school which backed up against our house. As I flew over heading to the beach I noticed some friends of mine from the neighborhood that were playing ball in the schoolyard. One had a bright red shirt on, the other had a red ball they were throwing against the handball court. I noticed a pair of shows on the roof of of school. They were tennis shoes White, with blue stripes along the soles.

I continued to fly down to the beach, but strangely could not smell the fresh scent of saltwater I had known my entire life, nor could I really hear any waves crashing on the beach. This seemed odd, because I assumed I could hear and smell in this state but I could not. I flew across the sand dunes and down the spot my friends and I had spent the day at. As I flew home I wondered how to get back in my body, and almost became concerned with this thought. Suddenly I was back in my bed, still tired and half asleep, but the dream was so exhilarating I had to get up and go see my friends in the schoolyard. I rode my bike quickly over to the school and found them still there. My friend Tim was wearing a bright red shirt and throwing a large rubber ball against the handball court wall. I asked him how long he had been there and he said 30 minutes or so.

I quickly rode my bike home. I got on top of my house and got to the crest of the roof so I could see onto the roof of the school. I saw a pair of sneakers, white with a blue stripe along the soles of the shoes! I spent the next decade wondering what the experience was and how to get it back. I wanted so badly to do it again but every time I went to sleep it didn't happen. I wondered how I could be out of my "real" body and yet how did my "real" body not die when I was gone? Why did it seem like it happened so fast and yet it had been a good half hour or more through the entire experience? I wondered if this is what it was like when we died. There were so many questions and yet everyone I asked looked at me as if I needed to see a Psychiatrist. In fact my parent did later take me to a Psychologist, who told them I was perfectly normal, but he also could not tell me what had happened and how I could do it again.

This experience happened again to me later in life, I was in the late 20's (1990's). I also validated those experiences with physical and measurable "real" objects, but these stories would take a good portion of a book to write. If you would like to hear about them I will gladly put them into a separate post.

P.S. For some odd reason from then on out all three of my extremely vivid OOB's were a result of laying down to sleep after being totally and thoroughly exhausted. It seems at least for me that I need to be completely physically exhausted, or physically and mentally exhausted before I lay down in order to obtain one of these experiences, though I am not sure why this is a requirement.

Tad

Naykid

Quote from: T.L. on September 28, 2010, 00:06:42
ok for example if I am in a lucid dream for example and I'm in a city or wherever I focus on exiting the dream first thing I notice is that the dream will fade out. For a short time everything will be all black like a void, and I'll immediately become aware of the vibrations and normally I'll start seeing from my physical body's perspective like if I laid down on my back I'll be looking at the ceiling as if seeing through my eyelids. From there I exit, other times everything will go like that except I'm already out usually in the same  room.

I notice sometimes people talk about going obe from lucid dreams but it seems they never really exited the lucid dream state, they are trapped inside the dream thinking they are seeing their true surroundings but really aren't. It does happen and when I first started that method from lucid dreams it happened to me a lot. Sure the conscious mind is the same for the most part but there are differences and that was what I was trying to articulate they are not the same exact thing. In one you experience a self creAted reality ( subconsciously or otherwise) in the other you experience realities separate from
yourself. When obe'ing it is possible to have objective experiences with practice.

I see what you are saying now.. I think. lol    That void you speak of is normal... to me. 

For example I had a lucid dream where I was floating around and I could see a house in the distance, a house that I had in a dream earlier..not a lucid dream, just a dream that I remembered some things from.  Well, I thought about going to the house and Zoom.. I'm in the void for a second, next second standing in front of house.  I think it's some kind of travel tunnel. lol  a worm hole if you will.


Xanth

Quote from: T.L. on September 28, 2010, 00:06:42
ok for example if I am in a lucid dream for example and I'm in a city or wherever I focus on exiting the dream first thing I notice is that the dream will fade out. For a short time everything will be all black like a void, and I'll immediately become aware of the vibrations and normally I'll start seeing from my physical body's perspective like if I laid down on my back I'll be looking at the ceiling as if seeing through my eyelids. From there I exit, other times everything will go like that except I'm already out usually in the same  room.
I always wonder if that "blackness" is due to a loss of vision, or if everything around me really is just "black".

QuoteI notice sometimes people talk about going obe from lucid dreams but it seems they never really exited the lucid dream state, they are trapped inside the dream thinking they are seeing their true surroundings but really aren't. It does happen and when I first started that method from lucid dreams it happened to me a lot. Sure the conscious mind is the same for the most part but there are differences and that was what I was trying to articulate they are not the same exact thing. In one you experience a self creAted reality ( subconsciously or otherwise) in the other you experience realities separate from  yourself. When obe'ing it is possible to have objective experiences with practice.
Ah, I see what you're saying.

You're talking about RTZ projections from a Lucid Dream, right?
Well first, personally, I see very little difference between LDs and APs.

I'll be honest, I've had, at the most, three RTZ projections and at least, one.
If you're saying that there is a difference between "Dreaming" the physical reality and "OBEing" into the physical reality, I couldn't ascertain what that difference was.  They felt identical.

I still feel that most people are making a massive mistake in that they're interpreting the change in consciousness as being a difference in 'reality'.

Xanth

Quote from: Naykid on September 28, 2010, 08:08:16
I see what you are saying now.. I think. lol    That void you speak of is normal... to me.
One of my more recent LD's that I converted to an AP, I had the same thing happen.
I wouldn't call it a "void" per se, but when I tried to phase from the non-physical environment I was in to a location in the RTZ, I described it as my vision going to black.  Would that be close or somewhat what you experienced as this 'void'?

personalreality

think about it, if there are really that many people who regularly convert LD to AP then they must be connected.

and the conversion is usually a matter of "grasping" onto full awareness.  so it seems like ap is just a more consciously aware ld. 

but don't listen to me, that's just a meta-analysis of other people's experiences, i don't LD.
be awesome.