astral plane? hmm...

[anton1]

hi!

let's see how you people can handle some truth...

according to this website and many others astral traveling is a way to explore REAL world and not your subconscious. is it really? try something next time you travel. take a deck of playing cards, shuffle it, close your eyes and draw a card. put that card on a table (or elsewhere) face up, but don't look at it. and now travel away! once you are tuned to your "astral body" take a look at that card. can you see what it is? when you are back in your physical body compare what you saw in the astral world with what it really is. YOU WILL NOT GUESS THAT CARD!

just face it, this "astral traveling" is nothing but a controlled dream. sure it's fun. hey, it's definitely healthier than acid! but astral body is not real and all you see when you travel is the creations of your mind. there is no other dimensions, there is no god. the reality is made of hard work and lies. face it, be strong!

wait, my astral body foresees a lot of negativity coming in response to this thread (hehe). let me emphasize some key points here.

1) try the experiment. if you guess the card it will be a final proof to yourself and others that astral traveling is real.

2) don't weasel out, try the experiment! stop making up excuses!

3) seriously, try this experiment. if you can't see the card - you can't see your body from outside and you can't see anything else. it's all made up.

[Selski]

hi!

take a deck of playing cards, shuffle it, close your eyes and draw a card. put that card on a table (or elsewhere) face up, but don't look at it. and now travel away! once you are tuned to your "astral body" take a look at that card. can you see what it is? when you are back in your physical body compare what you saw in the astral world with what it really is.

Hi anton1

Been there, done that, got the card right, got the t-shirt.  

Sarah  

[Max]

OH NOOOO!!!!! The world is flat! Darn me and my beliefs! Max goes back to the stone age.  

[MisterJingo]

Oh well. I guess the people who have seen me whilst OBE (who had no knowledge of my AP interests) on many occasions must be experiencing a shared hallucination with me. You have shown me the light. We were all dreaming. oh well.

[anton1]

What if I looked at the card and would see a joker excitedly jumping up and down taunting and challenging..would that count as reality?

if the card is indeed a joker - yes that would count.

Selski: I don't believe you, but I can't argue with you anymore. not after you said you guessed the card right.

MisterJingo: shared hallucination? that's a possibility. though I am sure there is an even simpler explanation. do you talk in your sleep?

[Kiba]

Oh boy, another person trying to disprove Astral Projection. If you don't believe in it, don't try to change others mind, simple as that. If your not trying to do that, I apologize. It just sounded like that in your post.

[astralspinner]

let's see how you people can handle some truth...

Okay, why don't we turn that round?

Instead of basing your opinion on ignorance and hearsay, and dismissing anything contradictory as lies, why don't YOU just learn how to project, and try the experiment yourself?

It's interesting to me that so many 'scientific' people feel qualified to dismiss something out of hand that they've never experienced. It's a highly unscientific approach.

[MisterJingo]

MisterJingo: shared hallucination? that's a possibility. though I am sure there is an even simpler explanation. do you talk in your sleep?

That would be a possibility but the people who have seen me when OBE where either not in the same room or on occasion the same building. The reason I discovered they had seen something is because I usually questioned them in the pretense of having a strange dream (Not wanting to divulge such a strange interest.)
I would usually project and visit someone (documenting the time) and later when checking with the people I visited, on more than one occasion, the person actually saw something strange at that time too.
An example being when I was OBE and decided to try and pull a female friend OBE too, I wasnt sure if this was possible at the time. In my experience she did go OBE and I showed her how we could move through walls and float. I spoke to her the morning after-wards stating my experience as a 'weird dream' that I'd had.  She froze on me and acted strangely towards me for the rest of the day. Later I bought up the subject again and she told me that she woke up in the night and found a figure bending over her bed reaching towards her, the figure was made of 'black smoke' in her words and she could see through it. She has no interest in the paranormal, or even religion or spiritual subjects, and she has never had an experience which could be called paranormal before or since (in her words.)
The times of my OBE and her strange experience were the same.

I have no explanation for the experience, and more was going on than talking in my sleep And I have no idea how a shared hallucination would work with a friend who I hadn't spoken to for a while in a separate location.
This is just one experience of many which has led me to believe more is going on than dreaming. I do try to be very objective where OBE is concerned. Also when questioning the person I visited I am careful not to use leading questions, or plant the seed of something strange happening at a certain time.
I don't expect you to believe what I say, but that's OK as I know it happened.

[Selski]

Selski: I don't believe you, but I can't argue with you anymore. not after you said you guessed the card right.

Somehow, I didn't think you'd believe me.  You had to be there.

Oh, and by the way, I didn't guess the card - I saw the card.

Sarah

[Eas]

lol have you even read a book on astral projection Ive read astral dynamics and Robert Bruce actually says that the way to prove AP is real is to take a card, stick it against a window, go and project, go through the window, look at it then come back, remember it, go check it out and then you'll know.
So now we've got selski and Robert Bruce proving that the card trick works, and I'm certain that almost all projectors try this trick and it works, id say thats 2-1 to us Anton1, you lose

[anton1]

the reason why i don't believe in AP is not because i know AP is not real. it is because my life experience suggests that this is another lie/misconception like honest politicians or charitable enterpreneurs i do not have proof, but i have some interesting evidence of that. let me explain...

1. most of you claim to see things while APing. like you get out of your body and see your room and yourself lying in the bed. well, guess what, you can only see things if you have eyeballs, retina, nerves, and all those nice things. they are what make us see things they way we see them. how do you know red is red and blue is blue? because your mind registers the difference between electomagnetic waves it receives from red and blue objects and labels them as those colors. in reality there is no color. there are atoms and waves. the only way to see color is with human eyes (or cat's eyes; but for example snake eyes won't do). therefore the most likely explanation to "astral sight" is that it is a creation of you brain. even if AP is real, you certainly would not see the objects the same way (or even close) while in AP, because you don't have your physical eyes with you

reading material: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Mach

2. i made an observation about the kind of people who usually believe AP. now this is going to sound offensive and rude... sorry, but i will say it anyway all you guys have one thing in common: lack of education. most of the time you hear something you do not need proof. as long as enough other people believe it - you will believe it too. some of the articles i read about AP were hilarious! one guy was concentrating on a candle and questioning himself "what is fire made of?". open a damn physics book, the answer is right there!!! lol. there is no real scientific studies about AP, because none of you guys know how to conduct one. sorry. in general, the kind of ignorance about world you demonstrate on these forums is way above average ignorance. once again, this is what i saw on these forums and it is my perception/opinion. don't be mad, please.

3. i made another observation about the AP people. this one is kinda ugly too, bear with me please. you all have another thing in common: weak mind. i saw the funniest convo in another topic. it went something like that:

guy1: when APing i can see things very clear
guy2: but can you read a text?
guy1: yes, i can.
guy2: wow! be my mentor please and slap me around for you are so much cooler than me.

as long as a person can speak fast and say mind blowing things - you will follow them anywhere. think about it, this is not your first "spiritual" hobby, is it? you have been used by the opposite sex in the past quite a bit, haven't you? when some1 tries to start a fight with you you say "i don't want to fight" instead of punching him, don't you? most commonly you suppress your fear, not anger, right? you are weak minded, this is why. sorry...

ALMOST THE END...

when some1 tells me David Copperfield went through the Chinese wall, I don't start thinking this is magic. there is simply nothing to suggest that it is! if i cannot explain it - it does not become supernatural automatically. i don't know how they can predict hurricanes or launch missions to mars, but they do and there is only science to it. by the way, i know that there is three possibilities about Copperfield: (1) he went above the wall, (2) he went under the wall, (3) he did not go anywhere. i really doubt they would allow him to make a hole in such a historical monument

[anton1]

astralspinner:

yes, let's turn it around. this is only fair. i will try to learn how to AP and achieve all those things you guys talk about: seeing cards, group experiences, etc. you will see, my opinion will not change, it can only become more detailed.

[Tom]

(1) People who have been blind from birth cannot see things when they go out of body. Robert Bruce has passed on descriptions of the way people who have been blind from birth actually do interact with the out-of-body environment. People who have had the ability to physically who can no longer physically see will still be able to see while out of body.

(2) There is a difference between knowing a thing and experiencing it. Where candle flames are concerned I'd agree that just looking is both better than touching and more satisfying than reading about the molecules and ions involved.

(3) It would be nice if there was some objective way to measure mental / emotional / spiritual development

[anton1]

(1) it all points to one thing: out of body experience is a product of your imagination and is only as extensive as your brain is experienced.

[astralspinner]

you can only see things if you have eyeballs, retina, nerves, and all those nice things

By that definition, we should be blind in our dreams too

all you guys have one thing in common: lack of education.

That's a very sweeping generalization, but I concede I've met a number of people who I agree fit in with that rather harsh description to some extent. . .

my opinion will not change

If that's your attitude, I'm sure you're right.

Didn't anyone ever tell you that the most important requirement there is for a scientist is an open mind?

[anton1]

"By that definition, we should be blind in our dreams too" - that's what i am talking about. you do not see in your dream. your brain creates your dream. it creates the pictures, you know.

when you see something it is actually your brain that receives electromagnetic waves and produces pictures from them. so those "pictures" do not exist in real world, but only in your brain.

[ElliotGain]

I don't understand.  You tell us to do the experiment, we tell you that its old news...we tell you we have carried out much grander experiments to prove our understanding.  And you tell us you don't believe....but if you don't believe, then why are you spend YOUR time on this site??

your close minded views give away your anger at us.  

Your anger gives away the fear you feel...    

And the fear you experience gives away your lack of self worth..  

Don't worry friend, one day you too will be enjoying the infinite dimensions your consciousness exists on...but until then...

chill out.  

[Adrian]

Hello anton,

hi!

let's see how you people can handle some truth...

according to this website and many others astral traveling is a way to explore REAL world and not your subconscious. is it really? else. it's all made up.

Thank you for your ideas.

If you can project into your subconscious mind then you are one step ahead of the rest of humanity    I am sure you mean "psyche".

No projection is in the "real world".  When exiting the body you will either be in the etheric energy level which some people erroneously refer to as the "real-time zone", or you will travel directly to the Astral energy levels.

In the case of an OBE the "real time zone" is actually not a time zone at all but rather a lower aspect of the Astral energy levels. It is however so close to the physical plane that it is almost a perfect reflection of it. It is still etheric energy that is being perceived however and accordingly the same laws apply when it comes to reality fluctuations. In other words the environment will be affected by the mind, and in particular your expectations. So if you have a card in mind for any reason, that is the reality you create.

Of course people who have a high level of control after projection, particularly over the mind, will indeed be able to accurately select cards in the way you indicate, due to the fact they are able to maintain the stability of the etheric energy, even though it is still a reflection.

It is not wise to make judements based on party tricks because it is not the etheric or Astral energy levels that will determine the accuracy, but rather, as with all energy levels above the physical world, it will be the mind of the person doing the observing, or more specifically perceiving.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[redcatherine]

even if AP is real, you certainly would not see the objects the same way (or even close) while in AP, because you don't have your physical eyes with you

We sense through the energy body, feeling seeing hearing ,and send these stimuli back to the physical body to interpret  .We bring to our consciousness that which we perceive and confirm it with the experiences of others .

The energy body can be developed to sense more acutely than the physical body . For example physically blind seekers can see with the energy body. Wheelchair-bound or comatose seekers can project to travel .

This is a sort of sonar projection of EMR similar to the reception by a bat or a dolphin which can send out a sound wave that  "echos" back to it .This distorted return wave builds up a pattern of energy which the animal can translate to "see " .

We send out and receive energy in many ways too that are not limited to the physical eyes .

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/dec2000/nf20001211_136.htm

http://www.light-science.com/bio2.html

2. i made an observation about the kind of people who usually believe AP. now this is going to sound offensive and rude... sorry, but i will say it anyway all you guys have one thing in common: lack of education.

OUCH did you really mean to write that or were you temporarily out of touch with your fingers lol ?

I have 7 years of university and 2 degrees . I have traveled the world and I am well read . I do not suffer from a lack of education nor do my peers on this forum .So many here on this forum have traveled the world and studied in tertiary institutions. Many have read profusely . Many have experimented in esoteric research  and some here in this forum have written expertly.

What we cannot tolerate the most in others is that which we cannot tolerate at all in ourselves. Who are you ? That is where you must begin . Your words reflect self doubt . Find your own truth . Until one is ready to perceive it they can not receive it . So you cannot accept mine yet . This is a truth reflected in the wisdoms of Buddha , Jesus and Tao .

Performers of  legerdemain are not the real mages of  this world . There is so much more out there . Begin your own path .Do not try to pull others from theirs . What is the point in that ? If humanity would all learn to shift our consciousness from the physical to the spiritual we would have a world of enlightened beings . We could learn to live in peace love  light and laughter . It is the dark and ignorant ones that squash hopes, dampen spirits,  put out the lights and stifle the laughter . Don't be part of the dark ,come walk in the light and carry your own torch . We are all students and teachers of each we meet on the path .

So begin today . All humans can meditate to develop clairvoyance  and  to project . Until you do these things yourself you will not believe as you are wrapped in doubt and disfigured by your illusions . Seek the God within yourself. Break free and begin to see.

[Telos]

I like this guy.

the reason why i don't believe in AP is not because i know AP is not real. it is because my life experience suggests that this is another lie/misconception

Excellent. Empirical experience is the way to go. That's what many in this forum also rely on. Dream experience is by nature highly subjective, but there are lots of commonalities.

like honest politicians or charitable enterpreneurs

Not to nitpick, but you do know that these things exist, don't you? They're just not very common. In statistical analysis, they're called "outliers." The comparison is a good one, though. If we were to put dreams under statistical analysis, the really significant experiences known as "astral projection" and OBE would probably be outliers as well. The same goes for spontaneous healing, and miracles of all kinds.

1. most of you claim to see things while APing. like you get out of your body and see your room and yourself lying in the bed. well, guess what, you can only see things if you have eyeballs, retina, nerves, and all those nice things. they are what make us see things they way we see them. how do you know red is red and blue is blue? because your mind registers the difference between electomagnetic waves it receives from red and blue objects and labels them as those colors. in reality there is no color. there are atoms and waves. the only way to see color is with human eyes (or cat's eyes; but for example snake eyes won't do). therefore the most likely explanation to "astral sight" is that it is a creation of you brain. even if AP is real, you certainly would not see the objects the same way (or even close) while in AP, because you don't have your physical eyes with you

I tend to agree. It's not reasonable to suggest that one can "see" the physical world exactly the same way when one's eyes are closed. My experience with AP suggests that I see the world how I remember it, mixed with some variation.

However, it's important to realize that no one understands how or where memory is stored. There's actually very little to suggest that it is stored in the brain. Definitely, it seems activated, recorded, and experienced through the brain, but not likely stored. The strongest hypothesis I've seen is that it is stored on a cytoplasmic level throughout the body with extensive holographic redundancy. But even that's probably not right. It's a mystery.

Dreams are an even bigger mystery, and it's compounded since they seem inextricably related to memory.

2. i made an observation about the kind of people who usually believe AP. now this is going to sound offensive and rude... sorry, but i will say it anyway all you guys have one thing in common: lack of education. most of the time you hear something you do not need proof. as long as enough other people believe it - you will believe it too. some of the articles i read about AP were hilarious! one guy was concentrating on a candle and questioning himself "what is fire made of?". open a [edit] physics book, the answer is right there!!! lol. there is no real scientific studies about AP, because none of you guys know how to conduct one. sorry. in general, the kind of ignorance about world you demonstrate on these forums is way above average ignorance. once again, this is what i saw on these forums and it is my perception/opinion. don't be mad, please.

Modern education systems discourage free and creative thinking. They are rote, boring, and are a detriment to society. Education wasn't always like this. It used to be practical, based on concrete merit and experience. Apprentices learned in the field, not in a morgue-like classroom.

I recommend the author John Taylor Gatto. Here is a brief primer of a handful of his views:
http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

It's completely erroneous to say that none of us know how to conduct scientific experiments regarding AP. There isn't much collaboration because, as you can imagine, it's not something you can just sit down and do on command. It seems tied to the Circadian rhythm (perhaps you've heard of it), and diligent dream journaling often requires losing a lot of sleep.

But, you're right. Lots of people can seem very flakey.

3. i made another observation about the AP people. this one is kinda ugly too, bear with me please. you all have another thing in common: weak mind. i saw the funniest convo in another topic. it went something like that:

guy1: when APing i can see things very clear
guy2: but can you read a text?
guy1: yes, i can.
guy2: wow! be my mentor please and slap me around for you are so much cooler than me.

as long as a person can speak fast and say mind blowing things - you will follow them anywhere. think about it, this is not your first "spiritual" hobby, is it? you have been used by the opposite sex in the past quite a bit, haven't you? when some1 tries to start a fight with you you say "i don't want to fight" instead of punching him, don't you? most commonly you suppress your fear, not anger, right? you are weak minded, this is why. sorry...

You kind of lose yourself at the end there. Preventing a fight is a sign of weakness? You need to grow up lol.  

Suppressing fear is a sign of weakness? That makes no sense. Managing your fear is a sign of courage. Not suppressing anger is weak? Not necessarily, anger can be channeled in highly productive activities. For instance, anger of an injustice can fuel someone to take action.

But yeah, you're right, belief in the paranormal tends to attract the weak-minded. That is, if weak-mindedness means forgoing one's own abilities for growth in mature understanding.  

ALMOST THE END...

when some1 tells me David Copperfield went through the Chinese wall, I don't start thinking this is magic. there is simply nothing to suggest that it is! if i cannot explain it - it does not become supernatural automatically. i don't know how they can predict hurricanes or launch missions to mars, but they do and there is only science to it. by the way, i know that there is three possibilities about Copperfield: (1) he went above the wall, (2) he went under the wall, (3) he did not go anywhere. i really doubt they would allow him to make a hole in such a historical monument

I like the way you think. Stick around.

And keep a dream journal... if you're strong enough.

[ElliotGain]

redcatherine:

You have left me speechless, thank you for your clarity.  You have chosen to shine light on this 'prove it/disprove it' fiasco, where there was fear and doubt you came with perfect love and trust.  I couldn't have said it better myself.  I am happy we have people like you to write on this forum.


I am amazed by all of you on this site, never have I seen so many intelligent humans stand so tall in peace and unity.  I am glad to know there are so many powerful souls abound on the Earth.

[MisterJingo]

the reason why i don't believe in AP is not because i know AP is not real. it is because my life experience suggests that this is another lie/misconception like honest politicians or charitable enterpreneurs i do not have proof, but i have some interesting evidence of that. let me explain...

1. most of you claim to see things while APing. like you get out of your body and see your room and yourself lying in the bed. well, guess what, you can only see things if you have eyeballs, retina, nerves, and all those nice things. they are what make us see things they way we see them. how do you know red is red and blue is blue? because your mind registers the difference between electromagnetic waves it receives from red and blue objects and labels them as those colors. in reality there is no color. there are atoms and waves. the only way to see color is with human eyes (or cat's eyes; but for example snake eyes won't do). therefore the most likely explanation to "astral sight" is that it is a creation of you brain. even if AP is real, you certainly would not see the objects the same way (or even close) while in AP, because you don't have your physical eyes with you

reading material: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Mach

Firstly, by what mechanism does the brain distinguish sensory input gained from electromagnetic waves as a colour? Colour is subjective and man made. There are ranges of frequencies which we relate to certain 'ideas' which we call colour. As far as I know, if you have discovered such a mechanism you are the first in the world.

Secondly, are you talking about the brain or mind? You use both interchangeably, which implies you perceive a difference between them.

As stated above, colour is not seen by the eyes. The eyes are simply devices which sense photonic data. Have you ever read any journals on external perception and internal visual generation? If so you would know that the eyes take in very little information, basic forms, colours and shapes. Reality as you view it is enhanced a lot by your brain.

I totally agree that astral sight is a creation of the brain. Sight is a dominant sense in our perception of reality. It only has difference from the other senses because our brains have developed in a way to generate these 'pictures' from this form of input. When we project our brains interpret data in the only way we know how, through the representation of physical viewing (perhaps because it is the dominant sense.) If scientists connected a human brain up to a sonar device, giving them an extra sense, do you think their brain would immediately generate a new form of sensory experience or would it try and fit the data to existing pathways? If you have read into this subject you would have read of blind people who could project, and know that their experience is generated through the sense of touch. Seemingly being able to touch in all directions at the same time.
Just because things are view along existing neural pathways does not mean AP is false.

2. i made an observation about the kind of people who usually believe AP. now this is going to sound offensive and rude... sorry, but i will say it anyway all you guys have one thing in common: lack of education. most of the time you hear something you do not need proof. as long as enough other people believe it - you will believe it too. some of the articles i read about AP were hilarious! one guy was concentrating on a candle and questioning himself "what is fire made of?". open a [edit] physics book, the answer is right there!!! lol. there is no real scientific studies about AP, because none of you guys know how to conduct one. sorry. in general, the kind of ignorance about world you demonstrate on these forums is way above average ignorance. once again, this is what i saw on these forums and it is my perception/opinion. don't be mad, please.

Have you read into any other hobby/area? There would be a range of intelligences there too. What does this point prove? That people who are interested in AP display a standard cross-section of intelligence and academic achievement? If you are basing the premise that most people interested in AP are of a sub-educational standard on a few Internet sites and these forums, then your research is deeply flawed.
A guy questioning what fire is made of? If he wants to do such a thing let him. Or perhaps we should mock all people who talk in such ways (most poets?)

3. i made another observation about the AP people. this one is kinda ugly too, bear with me please. you all have another thing in common: weak mind. i saw the funniest convo in another topic. it went something like that:

guy1: when APing i can see things very clear
guy2: but can you read a text?
guy1: yes, i can.
guy2: wow! be my mentor please and slap me around for you are so much cooler than me.

as long as a person can speak fast and say mind blowing things - you will follow them anywhere. think about it, this is not your first "spiritual" hobby, is it? you have been used by the opposite sex in the past quite a bit, haven't you? when some1 tries to start a fight with you you say "i don't want to fight" instead of punching him, don't you? most commonly you suppress your fear, not anger, right? you are weak minded, this is why. sorry...

And they are more groundless assumptions. For a person mocking others academic credentials, and then basing a theory on groundless data is pretty funny.
I don't wish to divulge personal information here, but I usually do not walk away from fights. So I guess I don't fall into this criteria either.

[BigOrangeBox]

all you guys have one thing in common: lack of education. most of the time you hear something you do not need proof.

While there may be some people who have a 'lack of education', not everyone here has. This year in September I should be going to university to study Biology, which I hope I will achieve a masters in. Providing I get ABB at A level of course.  (Exams in less than a week )

I admit I was pretty skeptical until it happened to me, but I did not dismiss other peoples opinions and experiences. Why don't you try it for yourself and then see if you believe it or not? How can you say something is not real without even trying it?

When I hear something, I do want proof - this is one of the reasons I am agnostic.  But that doesn't mean I will ignore what someone says if they have no scientific proof, as there are many many things that science have not discovered - new things are being discovered every day. And yes, I will try the card trick when I have become more experienced at OBE's because I myself want proof. You say you don't believe Selski, which is fair enough as you shouldn't always just believe what someone says. But if you are not willing to try it for yourself, then what else can you do?

Related to your comment about the eye:
I've only projected twice I think, but both times I started with a complete lack of vision. Only after a few minutes did I have any sight at all. As you say, our eyes see but it is our brain which interprets it (as far as I know anyway, I don't know too much about the eye it never interested me). I believe this lack of vision at the start is my mind not knowing how to interpret the new information it is getting, and only after a while is it able to change this into vision. Even then my vision is not completely clear, (it often fades again) so it may take many projections before I am able to see clearly (before my mind can interpret the information accurately)

[redcatherine]

redcatherine:

You have left me speechless, thank you for your clarity.  You have chosen to shine light on this 'prove it/disprove it' fiasco, where there was fear and doubt you came with perfect love and trust.  I couldn't have said it better myself.  I am happy we have people like you to write on this forum.


I am amazed by all of you on this site, never have I seen so many intelligent humans stand so tall in peace and unity.  I am glad to know there are so many powerful souls abound on the Earth.

TY

[Frank]

Anton1:

Speaking of handling truth: I think the truth is you are being a bit silly and your sweeping generalisations are nothing but kiddy-talk. Do you actually have anything sensible you wish to contribute, so we can have an intelligent debate?

This is, after all, a forum that has been specifically set up for people to engage in obe discussions! If it is not to your liking, and if all you can see fit to do is spout insulting remarks, and if you have nothing of substance to add... then don't let us keep you from moving on.

Yours,
Frank