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Basajaun

Hello to all,

It´s the first time I write here. Excuse me because my english is not very good. I´ve never had any OBE, I am a sceptical person and I need powerful and logical reasons to believe in something. I would like to think that many of the things you say and believe are true. Really it would be wonderful, but I have serious doubts about it. Many of them sound to me like a form of self-deception. But I want make to you the following questions:

Do you really believe that an OBE or an astral projection erradicates absolutely the fear of the death? Have you acquired the absolute conviction that a man or woman is something more than his/her physical body and that can be possible the existence or an immortal part within us all? An astral projection can PROVE that definitively, without doubt?
If you have the ability of travelling out of your body to whatever place you want, could one of you, experimented travelers, for example come to my home and say to me how I am, what is the colour of my eyes, my hair, etc...?

Thank you.  :)

Basajaun

Veccolo

QuoteDo you really believe that an OBE or an astral projection erradicates absolutely the fear of the death?

It didn't prove an after life to me yet.

QuoteHave you acquired the absolute conviction that a man or woman is something more than his/her physical body and that can be possible the existence or an immortal part within us all?

Not yet.

QuoteAn astral projection can PROVE that definitively, without doubt?

No. But if you do the "card test" (the test where you try to see a playing card while "out of body") correctly and succeed, let's say, 5 times in a row, it'll heavily support some of the ideas.
I don't do much, and I do it well.

Selski

Quote from: VeccoloBut if you do the "card test"

That's timely - I've just added a FAQ about the card test.  If anyone's interested, click here.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18497

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Selski

Hi Basajaun

The fear of death question is interesting.  I have no fear of death, however I wasn't frightened of dying before I'd even heard of OBEs.  Just because you have OBEs doesn't necessarily mean you lose the fear.  You are still You.  It's not some massive revelation when you have your first projection (well, it wasn't for me anyway).  The fact that I perceive myself to be leaving my body and moving my conscious to another place doesn't mean all the jigsaw pieces fall into place and wham, bam, I know everything there is to know.  

IMO, it's a very personal journey and your beliefs play a big part regardless of whether you can OBE or not.

I think you can only really prove astral projection to yourself, as I mention in the Playing Card Experiment FAQ.  

So, I come to your home, I tell you that you have dark hair, hazel eyes, and a pimple on your chin.  What if I'm correct?  What do you do?  You won't believe me – you'll question me or you'll tell me I'm a lucky guesser – right?

Ultimately, you need to experience it yourself.  We are all unique, and speaking on behalf of those who can project, you will find we all have different beliefs about a whole variety of things, including the afterlife.

Hope this helps.

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Frank

Hi:

People who have never properly done it before always misunderstand the true nature of the process. They tend to come up with statements like, "If this, then surely you'd be able to do that," etc. There are difficulties to be encountered in all ventures. One day people will no doubt be able to nip here and there "out of body". But it's not quite so simple as it sounds. What you need to do is give it a try and you'll see what I mean.

In a way it's like saying to someone, but if you can drive a car then surely you'd be able to take a Formula 1 car around a track no problem? You can fly a microlight, surely you should be able to take off in a Jumbo Jet and land without difficulty?

You say it yourself in your opening statement, "I've never had an OBE..." Well, there you go. Get some practice under your belt and all your opening questions will be answered.

Yours,
Frank

Basajaun

Hello,
QuoteNo. But if you do the "card test" (the test where you try to see a playing card while "out of body") correctly and succeed, let's say, 5 times in a row, it'll heavily support some of the ideas.
Well, but is it possible to get right the 100% of the times, without any error?
QuoteI think you can only really prove astral projection to yourself,
But then you are saying that the objective reality of that phenomenon can´t be proved.
QuoteSo, I come to your home, I tell you that you have dark hair, hazel eyes, and a pimple on your chin. What if I'm correct? What do you do? You won't believe me – you'll question me or you'll tell me I'm a lucky guesser – right?
No, not at all. Don´t worry about that. If you tell me IN DETAIL and without ANY error all the things that you see, if you are capable of describing me EXACTLY my room, my house, all the members of my family and my neighborhood without any error, I´ll never tell you that you are a lucky guesser. And I´ll begin to believe in the objective reality of the phenomenon.  
QuoteYou say it yourself in your opening statement, "I've never had an OBE..." Well, there you go. Get some practice under your belt and all your opening questions will be answered.
Well, what is the program I must follow to get an OBE or an astral projection? What are the books you recommend me? And how much time can get to get these experiences?

Thanks :)
Basajaun

Ben K

You might as well not even try if you dont believe. Otherwise you will be in a constant state of trying to prove something to yourself, and you will never get anywhere.

What I would suggest is keep an OPEN mind, forget about everything you have learned in the past, and when you practice just be curious, dont question everything that happens.

You can visit the FAQ section of the forums for allllll your answers :)
EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

Dagalvyi

I think everyone has given great replies to your questions. However, I think you must have some sort of belief in OBE otherwise you would never joined this group.                                                                                                     I am 37 years old, I have AP/OBE for the past 21 years. I never once tried to do it. It comes naturally to me. I believe there are many others out there like me.                                                                                                          I have no fear of death, because my first few experiences I thought I was dead. Imagine floating above your sleeping body. After thousands of experiences I know for a fact that we are much more than physical matter.                                                                                                    Before you can pass any sort of judgment on the subject you need to open this door and enter into it yourself. The Internet has opened windows for many different ways to experience these travels. I hope to hear that you have at least tried.
Reality is defined as one's own perception of life.

Veccolo

Quote from: BasajaunWell, but is it possible to get right the 100% of the times, without any error?

I don't know. Try it yourself, or find someone who tries to see the cards you set up.
I don't do much, and I do it well.

Frank

Basajaun:

Margin of error is the name of the game. But sceptics always demand 100% from everyone but themselves.

In the physical, if I asked you to turn a piece of solid bar down to exactly 6mm you couldn't do it. You'd have to work to a tolerance. Well, this is the same, there is no such thing as exact. Your questions are severely flawed, but to you they'll seem like moving pearls of wisdom, lol. But, then again, you have no experience. Which explains everything.

So my advice is for you to go and get some experience. Then come back and tell us what should and should not be possible. Until such time arises try to refrain from telling the knowledgeable people here what they should, or should not be able to do.

If you want to find out more then use the Search function or visit the FAQ forum. This should be pretty obvious to someone of your insight, surely. :)

Yours,
Frank

Basajaun

Hello,

QuoteYou might as well not even try if you dont believe.
I believe in the experience itself. I don´t deny that many people here has had an OBE, an AP or whatever name you want to call it. My doubts come next, with the purely subjective or objective nature of the experience. Is it all in my mind or really are we capable of going out of the body literally? In other words, my doubt is NOT about the existence of that experience, but about its objectivivity.
QuoteWhat I would suggest is keep an OPEN mind, forget about everything you have learned in the past,
Well, I´ve never have closed my mind to this experience. In any case, I would suggest you that don´t forget everything you have learned in the past, because there are many things important too.  :wink:
QuoteThe Internet has opened windows for many different ways to experience these travels. I hope to hear that you have at least tried.
Thank you very much. I hope so. I have written here asking for help. I don´t know what can be the best method, etc. One friend said me that the works of Robert Bruce are the best about the subject. Is this true?
Quotesceptics always demand 100% from everyone but themselves.
And fanatics always repel at 100% any critic to their convictions.
QuoteYour questions are severely flawed, but to you they'll seem like moving pearls of wisdom
You´re wrong. The essential difference between a sceptical and a fanatic is this: the sceptical hasn´t a strong complex of megalomania. He is sceptical because is humble and humble because sceptical. He doesn´t see himself as an omnipotent wise. That is the reason of his doubts.
QuoteSo my advice is for you to go and get some experience. Then come back and tell us what should and should not be possible.
I´m afraid in your case it wouldn´t be necessary.   :D
QuoteUntil such time arises try to refrain from telling the knowledgeable people here what they should, or should not be able to do.
I don´t know if you have read my posts from the astral plane or from the physical one but there´s one thing very clear to me: you have misunderstood completely the nature of my posts and you are doing unjust valuations about me. I haven´t written here to say people what they should or should not be able to do, as I said before.
QuoteIf you want to find out more then use the Search function or visit the FAQ forum. This should be pretty obvious to someone of your insight, surely. :)
Well, I don´t understand why are you using that stupid irony with me because I´ve never has used it with you before, my dear astral traveller.  :)  

Yours,
Basajaun

Ivanda

Basajaun,

I think your questions are great and it is nice that u are trying to learn something here. But as others have already said--u should try to have your own experience. That is the ultimate proof. Until then nothing that u read or hear can really convince u.

I am practicing for several months already and have had some interesting experiences, I also read everything possible on the matter. It is a continuous journey, full of surprises and revelations. Learn to relax and meditate first, then try some techniques for AP (there are many books out there, as well as tons of info in this board). U  have to find your own way! Good luck!

Ivanda
"And now these three remain: Faith, Hope and Love. But the greatest of these is Love."
(Corinthians, 1:13)

Ben K

QuoteWell, I´ve never have closed my mind to this experience. In any case, I would suggest you that don´t forget everything you have learned in the past, because there are many things important too. Wink

If what you have learned blocks your view of what you CAN learn, this is a bad thing. This is why when I practice, I dont try any "techniques", i just sit down, close my eyes and whatever happens, happens. This is is why i believe ive made the progress I have(Focus 10 on my 1st try, F12 soon hopefully ;) In alot of situations what you said may be true, but in this case I would advise against it, the only limitations are those put up by yourself.

QuoteThank you very much. I hope so. I have written here asking for help. I don´t know what can be the best method, etc. One friend said me that the works of Robert Bruce are the best about the subject. Is this true?

I would say for beginners the phasing method. Good results without alot of mumbo-jumbo. However, like anything it varies from person to person.  So explore everything. Another good aspect of the phasing method is that it does away with alot of the fears you might have about leaving the body, i.e. the vibes, sensations etc.

QuoteAnd fanatics always repel at 100% any critic to their convictions.

I would certainly say not, at least in Frank's case. How is telling you that you need to experiance this for yourself repelling?

Frankly(no pun intended ;) i think your arguing just for the sake of arguing here and I would advise you the same way Frank did: go out, do some research, try it out for yourself, and see what you think.

Good Luck,

Ben
EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

Basajaun

Hello,

QuoteI think your questions are great and it is nice that u are trying to learn something here. But as others have already said--u should try to have your own experience.
I am ready for it. The problem is that I don´t know how begin or what method to follow. I don´t know what method can be the best.
QuoteLearn to relax and meditate first, then try some techniques for AP (there are many books out there, as well as tons of info in this board). U have to find your own way! Good luck!
Thank you very much and good luck to you in your search.  :)
QuoteIf what you have learned blocks your view of what you CAN learn, this is a bad thing.
What I wanted to say is that in my opinion, a person never must lose his/her critical capacity, his logical and common sense. This doesn´t mean that he/she must be a close-minded. I don´t identify myself with a close minded person. In the opposite case, I wouldn´t writting in this forum.
Quoteive made the progress I have(Focus 10 on my 1st try, F12 soon hopefully
QuoteI would say for beginners the phasing method. Good results without alot of mumbo-jumbo.
Sorry. Which are these techniques?. Are they from the Robert Bruce´s method?
QuoteHow is telling you that you need to experiance this for yourself repelling?
Sorry, but you´re wrong. As I said before, I have personal and legitimate doubts because I am a normal human being, not an omnipotent/omniscient wise or demi-god. But I am NOT repelling anything.

Thanks,
Basajaun

Nostic

Your questions are valid Basajaun. But the only thing I can say to you is that if you're really interested in the subject, read as much about it as you possibly can. As you gain more outside knowledge, you will probably feel the desire to experience the things you've read about. Being unique individuals, different people are going to do better with different techniques. For me, Robert Bruces book Astral Dynamics, I'd say is perhaps the 2nd most influential book that I've ever read. The very day that I started using the NEW technique, I knew that I had stumbled onto something big. It was like a light had been flipped on in a previously dark room. It was like this book was destined to be in my life. Ever since then, I've had a clear understanding of the path I've needed to take.

Even still, Astral Dynamics represents only a piece of the puzzle. Other books have also helped me a great deal in piecing it all together. So read as much as you can. Pick-up books that you feel drawn to- let your intuition guide you. Then practice whatever techniques that you feel comfortable with. But be warned, it will often take a lot of diligence and persistence in order to get clear and definite results.

Psan

Hi Basajaun,
Welcome on the band-wagon. Your all doubts are perfectly valid and acceptable. :)
And now that you are feeling comfortable, I'll direct you to this thread for discussing the objectivity issues in AP - http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17727&highlight=verification

Its my experience that majority of guys here are of your type, rational and open-minded, plus very creative. The 'I'm right-you're wrong' thing is tempting, but it saves time and bandwidth if one jumps straight on the subject, not on the people. You know 'the great minds discuss ideas' thing.

As far as the question of how to start is concerned, there is tons of info on it in this forum and on internet and in books. So there is no point in asking for help when everything is already served in front of you. ;)

AP is a lot like a fun ride in a theme park initially, but to gain something useful from it is very difficult, its a lifetime business. There is some reason no-one on earth could prove its objectivity, given that so many civilizations lived and died without even doubting its existence. Perhaps this is the right time.

Nostic

Quote from: PsanPerhaps this is the right time.

I agree. I think 100% accurate provable results are not only possible, but also very much needed. I don't think we should rest until this is achieved.
Damnit, the work is so painstaking though. Right now, I think I have touched upon the very basics of remote vision. If I look at my computer screen for instance, I can definitely see it move. I can make it magnify/shrink and even ripple, but only on a subtle level. With this I think I understand the very (very) basics of moving my vision beyond what only my physical eyes can see. And objectively accurate results are what I'm after.

Basajaun

Hello Nostic and Psan,
QuoteFor me, Robert Bruces book Astral Dynamics, I'd say is perhaps the 2nd most influential book that I've ever read.
Well, and what about "Mastering astral projection"? Is it a worse book than the one you have mentioned? Why did you begin your work with "Astral Dynamics"? And only by curiosity: What is the 1st most influential book that you´ve ever read?  :wink:
QuoteAP is a lot like a fun ride in a theme park initially, but to gain something useful from it is very difficult, its a lifetime business.
I don´t know exactly what are you trying to say, because there are persons in this forum that say that they have had an astral projection in less than six months. Then, could that be possible or not?

Thank you very much for your reasonable and kind answers.  :)
Basajaun

Psan

Yes, thats possible. You can have it in days if you are lucky.
But it will take a long time and dedication to carry out useful experiments with it.