How do OBE's compare to physical reality?

[deepspace]

I've only done LSD, so can't comment on others. And no, I haven't visited ETs or gone to heaven, either on LSD or in AP. From what I've read, DMT seems to be the most like Astral Projection and in fact we may be tripping on it when we are doing AP since we are probably producing it naturally. A good read on this is "The Spirit Molecule" by Rick Strassman. His theory is that our Pineal Gland produces DMT and we are tripping on it at times. Many people have disagreed with him basically calling him a quack. But last year they found DMT in the Pineal Glands of mice so he could be right.

I don't advocate using Psychedelics, but they have a place for sure. In my opinion, the value of an experience is what you can take back from it. How it helps you or someone else. I know that high doses of Psychedelics will give you a more intense experience, but I think there's a lot of value to having all your faculties perfectly intact, being in control, etc. When I visit these alternate realities, I want to make sense out of it and also to have clear memories of the experience. If I can't handle it which happens from time to time, I can come back instantly. In AP, I get the experiences I need and am ready for. That's most important to me.  

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I think all belief systems, not just Christianity will limit your spiritual growth at some point. I'm talking about fixed belief systems (typically they are). NDEs are another form of AP, but of course with a focus on the afterlife which makes them different from the average AP. I have experienced many elements of the typical NDE in my APs. Spirits guides, meeting relatives that have passed on, going through the void, tunnel, incredible scenery, surreal cities, etc.

There are some beliefs that are better than others. For instance religions or should I say practices that use many hours of meditation in their practice actually attain very high states of being. With actual real life effects now, and in the afterlife. Being able to go into the heavenlies as they choose. It all comes down to practice. It requires at least 40,000 to 80,000 hours of meditation in a lifetime to make a real difference though. It's not easy but everyone can do it with real dedication. So it's not easy, but rather than singling out religions with baggage I would narrow down the search to where people in which religions actually have the ability to go higher into the astral or the heavens at death. That would be the religion to be looked at.  I know this kind of search is hard to do. But using common sense one can get a general good idea of what it takes, it doesn't take a religion, but rather the time it takes to get results with a certain practice. And when i say results, it mean spiritual results, not so much physical results. Such as number of people saved.

Lastly try researching the pinnacle of the spiritual path in all major religions. I think you will see that the pinnicple of the meditational religions is the highest practice there is. The heart of reality can be attained in this lifetime, in Buddhism it's called Shunyata or nirvana, in Taoism it's called wu chi, in Hinduism it's called the unmanifest or Brahman. The heart of reality is very much the same in all of these meditational religions. This place of pure peace, where there is no from, no sight, no sound, no emotions, no thing, there is nothing, it's absolute nothingness, yet it's full volume. The reason why is that if you go there, you become sight itself, the sound , the emotions, and the touch. It's a place of utter purity where no action can be taken. It's ineffably everything you could ever want in one. It's the heart of your being. Just like you phase to go into the astral. Well if you keep on phasing into the dimensions above you will finally reach God himself. It's a place of full volume yet, nothing is there. Your like a drop in an ocean. It is relative, yet ultimate. It is the heart of God himself, where you can God are one. There is no talking to God in this place of the holiest of the holies, but only merging with God, in utter surrender to all that is.

My point here is that I have never heard of a Christian talk about reaching such a pinnacle so high, or being so humble from the inside out. The dedication is huge but the pay off is uncountable. Thus the ceiling effect in Christianity versus a dedicated lifetime of meditational practice. Which gives actual results.

Peace.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I've only done LSD, so can't comment on others. And no, I haven't visited ETs or gone to heaven, either on LSD or in AP. From what I've read, DMT seems to be the most like Astral Projection and in fact we may be tripping on it when we are doing AP since we are probably producing it naturally. A good read on this is "The Spirit Molecule" by Rick Strassman. His theory is that our Pineal Gland produces DMT and we are tripping on it at times. Many people have disagreed with him basically calling him a quack. But last year they found DMT in the Pineal Glands of mice so he could be right.

I don't advocate using Psychedelics, but they have a place for sure. In my opinion, the value of an experience is what you can take back from it. How it helps you or someone else. I know that high doses of Psychedelics will give you a more intense experience, but I think there's a lot of value to having all your faculties perfectly intact, being in control, etc. When I visit these alternate realities, I want to make sense out of it and also to have clear memories of the experience. If I can't handle it which happens from time to time, I can come back instantly. In AP, I get the experiences I need and am ready for. That's most important to me.

OK well that helps. I would be curious what the opinion of one that has been to the height of the psychedelic experience, and also astral projected naturally a bit would have to say on the differences between them. I know I've heard some people say the only way to go is all in 100 percent. But that might cause a very hellish experience for some on their first, use which is not good. Meaning getting the breakthrough as they call it is what you really want in the psychedelic experience, and I don't think you reached that yet.


Lastly I think it's a little out of context to call astral projection "far superior" to psychedelics if you haven't gotten a breakthrough experience with psychedelics yet. As we need to compare apples with apples, and oranges with oranges here. To be honest even if you had a couple of breakthroughs we might still be comparing apples and oranges but it would be better than you not having any breakthrough. I'm just trying to keep things real.

Yet your experiences and opinion is adds some value here, thanks for sharing.

Peace.

[deepspace]

OK well that helps. I would be curious what the opinion of one that has been to the height of the psychedelic experience, and also astral projected naturally a bit would have to say on the differences between them. I know I've heard some people say the only way to go is all in 100 percent. But that might cause a very hellish experience for some on their first, use which is not good. Meaning getting the breakthrough as they call it is what you really want in the psychedelic experience, and I don't think you reached that yet.

Lastly I think it's a little out of context to call astral projection "far superior" to psychedelics if you haven't gotten a breakthrough experience with psychedelics yet. As we need to compare apples with apples, and oranges with oranges here. To be honest even if you had a couple of breakthroughs we might still be comparing apples and oranges but it would be better than you not having any breakthrough. I'm just trying to keep things real.

How do you know if I had a "breakthrough" experience or not? Just curious. There are also what I would call "breakthrough" experiences in AP for sure. I think you have to be careful when attempting to judge the value of other people's experiences, it's best to stick with your own. I'm trying to express my opinion about psychedelics which is based on my experiences only. Other's may have different ones based on theirs.

Yet your experiences and opinion is adds some value here, thanks for sharing.

Thanks, that's kind of you.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

How do you know if I had a "breakthrough" experience or not? Just curious. There are also what I would call "breakthrough" experiences in AP for sure. I think you have to be careful when attempting to judge the value of other people's experiences, it's best to stick with your own. I'm trying to express my opinion about psychedelics which is based on my experiences only. Other's may have different ones based on theirs.

It's hard to get an exact definition, but if I were to take an educated guess it would be where you get out of body for your psychedelic trip. For DMT users this is called "DMT hyperspace". It's where you aren't even in your body anymore, and you often don't have any memory of your life on earth while there or any memory of who you were. And you in just utter bliss and oneness in the heavenlies, and while there you can be given messages which often help you in your spiritual path. That is what I call a breakthrough from what I kind of remember. It's been a little while, but I think I got a pretty good idea here.

BTW in talking about "how do OBE's compare to the physical reality" this is kind of related I guess. It's just under the filters of the psychedelic when talking about a breakthrough trip.

As far as attempting to interpret other experiences I don't have much of a choice as of right now. I have done very well in interpreting others experience so far generally speaking. And if I didn't do any interpreting and judging I would be even more lost on the bigger spiritual picture of what is going on in the world. In attempting to judge your psychedelic experience it's not like I am comparing apples and oranges IMO. Like comparing your psychedelic experience to that of a Christian, but rather I am comparing your psychedelic experience with other psychedelic experiences, all at face value. I am looking at what other users report too in contrast to yours. Certainly if a scientist does this type of thing there will be a need in the scientific community to keep the scientist away from experimentation, kind of like what I am doing. Though there is always the need for the Alexander Shulgin's.    Scientist and experimenter.  

Peace.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

In researching a bit on what a breakthrough DMT trip is like I guess there is not set definition, kind of like I suspected. But for me anything that doesn't give you spiritual growth from either higher states of being or other intelligences wouldn't be a breakthrough. Unless one just want to use it for intelligent fun use and experimentation with a low dose of DMT, but I wouldn't call that a breakthrough.

Edit: One user reported this which is what I would go with as the most likely definition.

"There is no clear definition of the word. Experiences can vary in so many ways.

It usually means that the effects of the psychedelic you´ve taken override your normal sensory perception, wich can lead to OBE´s, experiences of other worlds that feel very real, etc.

You´re flooded with psychedelic input until you will no longer stay afloat in normal reality, but 'go under' (often it also feels that way, especially at the beginning).

Vaporised DMT also acts quickly and because of this has an extra 'stunning' dimension to it.

But oral psychedelic´s like shrooms, mescaline, ayahuasca and ibogaine can also be this intense and overpowering, though less rapid."

Peace.

[deepspace]

As far as attempting to interpret other experiences I don't have much of a choice as of right now. I have done very well in interpreting others experience so far generally speaking. And if I didn't do any interpreting and judging I would be even more lost on the bigger spiritual picture of what is going on in the world. In attempting to judge your psychedelic experience it's not like I am comparing apples and oranges IMO. Like comparing your psychedelic experience to that of a Christian, but rather I am comparing your psychedelic experience with other psychedelic experiences, all at face value.
Peace.

I'd caution against taking people's reports at face value. I've read quite a few in various places. Not impressed by the some of the short novels certain people write which appear to be either grossly embellished or just completely invented. Looks like are trying to either get attention, impress people or establish themselves as some sort of expert. At the same time, some of the same people are constantly trying to "interpret" the experiences of the "less experienced" people where they try to come off as a teacher/guru. Their comments often look like the "teacher" trying to grade the "student's" work of with subtle slights and minimizing the value in order to make themselves look like an authority. Fortunately, I can see straight through their BS.

IMO, the real value of any experience, yours or someone else's lies in whether it produces any spiritual growth. It sounds like we agree on that which is the most important thing anyway.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I'd caution against taking people's reports at face value. I've read quite a few in various places. Not impressed by the some of the short novels certain people write which appear to be either grossly embellished or just completely invented. Looks like are trying to either get attention, impress people or establish themselves as some sort of expert. At the same time, some of the same people are constantly trying to interpret the experiences of the "less experienced" people where they try to come off as a teacher/guru. Their comments often contain subtle slights and minimize the value of others in order to make themselves look like an authority. Fortunately, I can see straight through their BS.

When I say taking them at face value that is generally speaking of course given the assumption that most of the people posting are not going to be on BS. And by getting the general feel of what these psychedelics are capable of I can gain insight. Though IDK there that many make up trips as you are saying, to sound like an expert. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe you can enlighten me. I would have to call many other testimonies from experimentation into question if I do that though perhaps.

In the end let me just clarify that you are not saying that I should give up on trusting psychedelic trips reports that I read in general to get a good idea about what these things are capable of right?

[deepspace]

When I say taking them at face value that is generally speaking of course given the assumption that most of the people posting are not going to be on BS. And by getting the general feel of what these psychedelics are capable of I can gain insight. Though IDK there that many make up trips as you are saying, to sound like an expert. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe you can enlighten me. I would have to call many other testimonies from experimentation into question if I do that though perhaps.

In the end let me just clarify that you are not saying that I should give up on trusting psychedelic trips reports that I read in general to get a good idea about what these things are capable of right?

I'm not saying you should give up reading and evaluating the reports you read. I don't think trust is necessary if you are looking for the underlying value. The question is not whether psychedelics can take you straight into the Astral, no one is disputing that for sure. The question is, are they the best way to get there, and do the benefits outweigh the risks? Tripping and being enlightened are different things. I think you can have high value experiences without them, but I won't judge their use and/or say it's wrong or even unnecessary to use them. I apologize if I've done that.

Also when I talk about BS appearing reports, I am also referring to Astral Projection reports since they are also "trips" into the Non-Physical. But if you just look at them for their real value, it's not important if they "really" happened. It would be kind of silly to debate that anyway.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Let me just point out right now that I will be talking about some very interesting and rare information here that should be very intriguing for all serious spiritual seekers. In fact I should almost make this into it's own post.

Tripping and being enlightened are different things.

I am sorry I don't mean to pick apart everything your saying, I just like getting down to the truth as I have learned it from others. I know this is anecdotal evidence I am pointing out here to a degree, and it's an area that is really unstudied. But to answer to the statement you said, I think the answer is yes and no. Since I have run across two people that have reached the height of reality where I mentioned before, it's a place of pure nothingness, pure silence, pure bliss, pure consciousness, there no form is there, there is nothing to behold there. It's the height of perfection. As I already mentioned it this place of utter surrender to reality into the void of pure bliss. In Buddhism it's called Shunyata or nirvana, in Taoism it's called wu chi or Wuji, in Hinduism it's called the unmanifest or Brahman. I like to just call it the heart of reality that is beyond description. So I have found 3 people that have reached this place of 100 percent perfection with psychedelics. One of them only told me about it in a PM. He's did it with a high dose of a powerful strain of psilocybin mushrooms. He has done it a couple of times. Now before you like your kidding me right, trust me it's not what you think.

OK so the first is right on the internet. Right here. http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/experience/descriptions.html

It's from a book Tryptamine Palace: 5-MeO-DMT and the Sonoran Desert Toad by James Oroc

In it he talks about reaching this place of absolute nothingness yet pure bliss and consciousness. Now if you actually look at the experiential experience of both states from the meditational religions, and that of the psychedelic at it's peak, you will see that they are indistinguishable.

So if you go to the page linked right above and then type nothingness into the search bar you will see exactly where this is at. He describes it is in beauty. Now remember we are not looking for all the effects before reaching the void, but in the void of nothingness. They are two different states. We are comparing the experiential experience of nothingness here with the psychedelic, versus what the experiential experience of nothingness in meditational religions.

"Colors entered my perception in impossible layers as the rate of dissintegration increased in exponential leaps. Any concept of 'time' or relative 'space' fractured into a quadrillion holographic pixels and was carried off along with the rest of manifest existence, in impossibly fast motion by another quadrillion overly-anxious, nano-sized, carnivorous ants. 'I' seemed to travel some immense distance in an instant, or more like a non-instant. My perception at once exploded and imploded infinitely. Matrix/lattice-like color patterns gave birth in non-time to explosions of sparks which were galactic in the inward scope and scale. Simultaneously, these explosions recured, compounded, echoed, moving my consciousness inward and outward in unimaginable magnitude, 'eventually' into the yawning maw of Nothingness. All ability to fathom halted. All sense of 'I' became totally transparant, instantly g-o-n-e. No Self/Ego. Breathing, heartbeat, Earth life, past experience... never existed. Absorbed into the infinite, timeless, all permeating, Singularity; the sheer titanic bliss of the Void. This lasted forever. It was a Death, ummm... what can I possibly call 'It'?. It was a state? The anihilation of experience, actually. Infinite, unmanifest potential. Words do not really work, here..."

"Within the space of a few heartbeats, I had completely expanded into God.  Eyes open in absolute awe and wonder, the room dissolved, my ego dissolved, my entire world dissolved.  Everything I had ever known or thought or felt dissolved away into absolute pure nothingness.  There was nothing to see, nothing to experience, nothing to perceive.  Absolutely pure nothingness.  And this nothingness was pure consciousness.  And it was love.  Infinite love and infinite perfection.  Everything was in a state of divine perfection.  Nothing was out of place.  Nothing was either good or bad.  Nothing was right or wrong.  Everything was simply perfect in this pure consciousness, this pure state of being.  And this state was not a thing.  It was not an object of perception.  It was not a concept.  It was not an emotion.  It was not anything that I could describe in any way.  In fact, when asked later, I vaguely described it as "living starlight," but even that was not accurate, for in truth, it was nothing.

But that no-thing was everything.
It was God.
And it was my deepest nature.
I was one with God.

Not my ego self.  That was pretty thoroughly obliterated through the impossibly fast 5-MeO-DMT expansion.  It was not as though I identified my personal sense of self with God.  Rather, it was that the deepest core of my being, not my ego-identity, was identical with God.  As a finite being in a body with a sense of self and identity, I was an expression of God.  At my core, at the very deepest level, my nature as an incarnated being was one with that pure consciousness, that infinite love, that infinite source of creative energy in which all things exist in absolute and unquestionable perfection.  In those few heartbeats, this beautiful and sacred medicine had opened me up to the All.  I had accepted my own divinity.

"Thank you, God!" I called out as my hands reached up towards that infinite expanse of nothingness, a few moments after the hit of psychedelic medicine flowed out of my lungs.  Eyes wide open, gaping in sheer awe at the mysterium tremendum, I embraced God, and the embrace was returned."

Now let's get a few words that describe what this state is like in meditational religions. I talked with a friend of mine and she confirmed with me that these people are reaching what Hinduism calls Nirvikalpa Samadhi. It is the highest possible meditational state in Hinduism.

Let's see what wikipeda says about it.
Nirvikalpa or sanjeevan - This is the highest transcendent state of consciousness. In this state there is no longer mind, duality, a subject-object relationship or experience. Upon entering nirvikalpa samādhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure awareness remains and nothing detracts from wholeness and perfection.

The key here in understanding the similarities is that there is nothing there. In the manifest world there is always a thing in from, for us to behold. But in this state there is nothing to behold. Since you and the object dissolve into oneness. You become one with everything in a way. THere are many that call this state a place of nothingness. This is key in understanding the similarities. This is the real dying to the world. Not the dying to the world that the christians understand.

OK so let's look at the definition from wikipedia on Sunyata from Buddhism.
Śūnyatā, (Sanskrit, also shunyata; Pali: suññatā), in Buddhism, translated into English as emptiness, voidness, openness, spaciousness, vacuity, is a Buddhist concept which has multiple meanings depending on its doctrinal context. In Theravada Buddhism, suññatā often refers to the not-self (Pāli: anatta, Sanskrit: anātman) nature of the five aggregates of experience and the six sense spheres. Suññatā is also often used to refer to a meditative state or experience.

And lastly in taoism there is Wu Chi or Wuji for explaining this state of nothingness.

Wuji 無極 (literally "without ridgepole") originally meant "ultimateless; boundless; infinite" in Warring States period (476-221 BCE) Daoistclassics, but came to mean the "primordial universe" prior to the Taiji太極 "Supreme Ultimate" in Song Dynasty (960-1279 CE) Neo-Confucianist cosmology. Wuji is also a proper noun in Modern Standard Chinese usage, for instance, Wuji County in Hebei.
The word Wuji
Chinese wuji "limitless; infinite" is a compound of wu "without; no; not have; there is not; nothing, nothingness" and ji "ridgepole; roof ridge; highest/utmost point; extreme; earth's pole; reach the end; attain; exhaust". In analogy with the figurative meanings of English pole, Chinese ji  "ridgepole" can mean "geographical pole; direction" (e.g., siji  "four corners of the earth; world's end"), "magnetic pole" (Beiji  "North Pole" or yinji  "negative pole; anode"), or "celestial pole" (baji  "farthest points of the universe; remotest place").

Now again this seems to be the same thing. They even use the word nothingness as I said. And again any differences between the definitions here would be trivial IMO. IMO we can go to the pinnacle of all the world's meditational religions, and we will see the same thing.

So as we can see, not only is there these similarities within these meditational traditions in talking about the source of being and reality, but also with psychedelics. You may wonder how I found this out. As I don't think there has been any book that has covered this broad of a relationship here between not only meditational religions, but also with psychedelics. Well I have a lot of time on my hands. And I have done a lot of soul searching. This is information very few people on earth know right now. Who would have thought that you could become the Buddha for a couple of minutes if you could break that barrier with the psychedelic in order to reach the source himself. And remember here the guy that took the psychedelic, and merged into his source.

Now I also have some PM's with another psychedelic user that talks about the same type of experience. Using words like "absolute nothingness", "so still", "zero thought" "infinite silence" and "absolute volume" These words totally describe the state I am talking about above. And again any differences would be trivial IMO. Particularly since there is nothing there. LOL Not even the self is there. Meaning you are not self aware in such a states. Now this guy did it from taking a strong dose of psilocybin mushrooms, and not 5-MEO-DMT like the other guy I posted above. So there is probably other psychedelics that can do this too. Also note that 5-MEO-DMT is 10 times stronger than DMT. So I think I will leave it at this, and if anyone wants me to post an edited version of our conversation I will. Excluding his name of course.

So to answer to your statement "Tripping and being enlightened are different things." I think the answer is a bit more complicated than that. So it's a yes and a no to the statement. Obviously if one takes a psychedelic and reaches nirvana they still have to deal with the an untamed mind when they come back. Now this also posses a very advanced question for future generations to answer. What if in the future, at the end of your life when you are ready to die you take a psychedelic cocktail to reach this place of perfection, but you have it timed to where once this takes full effect, then have doctor would assist you with an intravenous injection of something to end your physical life on earth. Will you be liberated into the unmanifest with perfect bliss? Very interesting question. You would have no multidimensional bodies to go back to. You would have shed every single layer of your multidimensional body. Becoming unborn as it were spiritually.

Now you can't buy 5-MEO-DMT, but you can buy frogs that have 5-MEO-DMT in it's venom. I guess the main part of the venom is 5-MEO-DMT LOL The frogs are not illegal. But I think smoking the 5-MEO-DMT venom is.

Lastly I want to point out that nobody has a monopoly on reality and truth. Not the christians, not the Muslims, not the Meditational religions, not astral projectors, not wiccans, not shamans, or dare I say scientists. [Edit: note I say scientists not science, were still fine tuning now science is done.] And I have strong reason to say that even about scientists. If you want, I can get into something really big on that one. But I will leave it at that for now.

I think you can have high value experiences without them, but I won't judge their use and/or say it's wrong or even unnecessary to use them. I apologize if I've done that.

OK well that helps me understand you position a little better. Thanks for that. And I hope you don't take me picking apart everything your saying the wrong way.

Also when I talk about BS appearing reports, I am also referring to Astral Projection reports since they are also "trips" into the Non-Physical. But if you just look at them for their real value, it's not important if they "really" happened. It would be kind of silly to debate that anyway.

I think when I said taking them at face value I meant that I generally don't go in with biases on what the experience should be like. I don't think I meant that I document it and don't know how to apply it to anything. Perhaps face value was not the right word.

Peace.

[Xanth]

PlasmaAstralProjection,
Have you looked up the term "metaphor" before? 
That's all your describing.  Metaphors... the different ways and words people use to describe the same thing.  Understanding another persons metaphors allows you to attempt to understand what they're saying.

What you're describing in your above post is what I (and others here) call "the void"... Tom Campbell calls "point consciousness"... others yet here call it the "3D Blackness"... and there are many other terms that go beyond that.  All different metaphors to describe the same thing.  That "absolute nothingness yet pure bliss and consciousness".

You are correct that nobody has a monopoly on the truth.  Even further to the point, there are 7 billion people on Earth... there are also 7 billion truths.
There is no monopoly on the truth, because truth is unique to each individual.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

PlasmaAstralProjection,
Have you looked up the term "metaphor" before?  

LOL are you saying that the Buddha metaphorically meditated for years, only to reach a metaphorical Sunyata. LOL Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are saying. Besides the Buddha from many years ago, we have people in this day and age that have reached enlightenment, or Sunyata, or substrate consciousness. They are rare but their are a few.

That's all your describing.  Metaphors... the different ways and words people use to describe the same thing.  Understanding another persons metaphors allows you to attempt to understand what they're saying.

No I am interpreting an experiential experience, not a metaphor. The only way that source of consciousness is a metaphor would be in a way that it's just too abstract to put into sufficient words. Not that it doesn't literally exits.

What you're describing in your above post is what I (and others here) call "the void"... Tom Campbell calls "point consciousness"... others yet here call it the "3D Blackness"... and there are many other terms that go beyond that.  All different metaphors to describe the same thing.  That "absolute nothingness yet pure bliss and consciousness".

Perhaps point of consciousness is in the unmanifest. But let me be clear. It's easy to confuse the higher Samadhi's with the unmanifest itself when talking in basic language, such as 3D blackness and point consciousness. If you can think in any of these places then it's not the source consciousness. It's impossible to think in such a state I am talking about. So let me ask, can people think in such places to any degree of a degree? An even better question is are people self aware in any of these states? Since it's not possible to be self-aware when at your source.

You are correct that nobody has a monopoly on the truth.  Even further to the point, there are 7 billion people on Earth... there are also 7 billion truths.
There is no monopoly on the truth, because truth is unique to each individual.

Let's just clarify right now that there is such a thing as ignorance for what you call peoples truths here? Certainly ignorance and it's effects are real in the world. So just because someone believes something to be true, doesn't always make it true. So in the end it's a bit out of context to say a persons truth can also be their ignorance. Truth and ignorance are two different things. Perhaps a better word for what your talking about is beliefs instead of truth. Since beliefs denotes both a persons truths/light and ignorance/darkness.

Peace.

[deepspace]

Let me just point out right now that I will be talking about some very interesting and rare information here that should be very intriguing for all serious spiritual seekers. In fact I should almost make this into it's own post.

I read through the trip report you posted and I think it is the truth, mainly because this is also the conclusion that I have come to on my own although haven't experienced at that level. On it's own, it definitely has value and IMO it is an accurate description. It confirms for me something I have concluded from my own search for the truth: The default state is nothing and that all things that are said to exist are manifestations of consciousness.

In order to be able to experience this in the absolute, you must be able to completely lose yourself, who you are, your connection with everything you know and have known. You must be prepared for this, not just a mental preparation if you know what I mean. I'm not there yet for sure. In my Astral Projections, I have experienced this only partially, going as far as I can handle, slowly moving toward the absolute as I am able. It's a slow process, step by step and I have bailed out several times. I have no doubt you can get there, the main thing for me is being ready.

So to answer to your statement "Tripping and being enlightened are different things." I think the answer is a bit more complicated than that. So it's a yes and a no to the statement. Obviously if one takes a psychedelic and reaches nirvana they still have to deal with the an untamed mind when they come back. Now this also posses a very advanced question for future generations to answer. What if in the future, at the end of your life when you are ready to die you take a psychedelic cocktail to reach this place of perfection, but you have it timed to where once this takes full effect, then have doctor would assist you with an intravenous injection of something to end your physical life on earth. Will you be liberated into the unmanifest with perfect bliss? Very interesting question. You would have no multidimensional bodies to go back to. You would have shed every single layer of your multidimensional body. Becoming unborn as it were spiritually.

It's very possible that your body releases large quantities of DMT when you die, in that case we will all have a big trip at the end.   I do think we will be able to experience this absolute unmanifest void in the afterlife for sure, maybe even here too. If and when I'm ready for it here in this life, it will happen. We know this state exists and I, like you definitely want to experience it. We have no disagreement at all on that. But I think what we're really discussing is which path you take to get there. There is more than one way to get there for sure. For me, I prefer to take the slow and steady path because that way I can be prepared for the experience. There is also a lot of value in the partial experiences.

But it's also very possible that my AP trips are really DMT trips anyway since we may be producing it internally.  

[Aaron330]

"Within the space of a few heartbeats, I had completely expanded into God.  Eyes open in absolute awe and wonder, the room dissolved, my ego dissolved, my entire world dissolved.  Everything I had ever known or thought or felt dissolved away into absolute pure nothingness.  There was nothing to see, nothing to experience, nothing to perceive.  Absolutely pure nothingness.  And this nothingness was pure consciousness.  And it was love.  Infinite love and infinite perfection.  Everything was in a state of divine perfection.  Nothing was out of place.  Nothing was either good or bad.  Nothing was right or wrong.  Everything was simply perfect in this pure consciousness, this pure state of being.  And this state was not a thing.  It was not an object of perception.  It was not a concept.  It was not an emotion.  It was not anything that I could describe in any way.  In fact, when asked later, I vaguely described it as "living starlight," but even that was not accurate, for in truth, it was nothing.

But that no-thing was everything.
It was God.
And it was my deepest nature.
I was one with God.

Not my ego self.  That was pretty thoroughly obliterated through the impossibly fast 5-MeO-DMT expansion.  It was not as though I identified my personal sense of self with God.  Rather, it was that the deepest core of my being, not my ego-identity, was identical with God.  As a finite being in a body with a sense of self and identity, I was an expression of God.  At my core, at the very deepest level, my nature as an incarnated being was one with that pure consciousness, that infinite love, that infinite source of creative energy in which all things exist in absolute and unquestionable perfection.  In those few heartbeats, this beautiful and sacred medicine had opened me up to the All.  I had accepted my own divinity.

"Thank you, God!" I called out as my hands reached up towards that infinite expanse of nothingness, a few moments after the hit of psychedelic medicine flowed out of my lungs.  Eyes wide open, gaping in sheer awe at the mysterium tremendum, I embraced God, and the embrace was returned."

Wow. That was beautiful. Definitely caught a tear from reading this. That is the kind of Oneness with God I've always deeply desired since I was a young Christian. Thanks for the post

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

It confirms for me something I have concluded from my own search for the truth: The default state is nothing and that all things that are said to exist are manifestations of consciousness.

Glad to see you got something out of that.

In order to be able to experience this in the absolute, you must be able to completely lose yourself, who you are, your connection with everything you know and have known. You must be prepared for this, not just a mental preparation if you know what I mean.

Yeah that is why I have thought about secluding myself for many hours of meditation everyday. Haven't been able to consistently do it. Though I have a pretty good idea of how to meditate, and have some good experience behind my belt. As they say meditation is the learning how to focus on everything and nothing at the same time. LOL

It's very possible that your body releases large quantities of DMT when you die, in that case we will all have a big trip at the end.  

Yeah, though our bodies would produce other molecules in a more balanced way to make it more manageable, so that it doesn't filter out as much as a psychedelic trip.

I do think we will be able to experience this absolute unmanifest void in the afterlife for sure, maybe even here too. If and when I'm ready for it here in this life, it will happen.

I wouldn't be so sure about automatically becoming enlightened at the end of life. This is something meditators take a lifetime to perfect with at least 40,000 to 80,000 hours of meditation in a lifetime. Though they do say that the time, and type of death you get is very very important for making it to the upper realms. And I wouldn't could on this system to give you the comfort you need at the end of life. If you leave it up to the system your bound to be left in a nursing home for years, if your lucky you might die quickly from a heart attack. Our care of dying seniors is still very much archaic and barbaric. The Catholic Hospitals will keep you alive, and force-feed you until your last dying breath, even if you have an advanced directive saying that you don't want to be force-feed if you deny food. Get informed while you can, before you become a victim of the system. We put many of our seniors through hell at the end of life.

We know this state exists and I, like you definitely want to experience it. We have no disagreement at all on that. But I think what we're really discussing is which path you take to get there. There is more than one way to get there for sure. For me, I prefer to take the slow and steady path because that way I can be prepared for the experience. There is also a lot of value in the partial experiences.

But it's also very possible that my AP trips are really DMT trips anyway since we may be producing it internally.  

I doubt we make enough DMT to trip during an AP, but it seems very plausible that small amount of endogenous DMT is vital to making good AP trips, but right along with other tryptamines like 5-MEO-DMT, and serotonin and all the other things that keep us out of our body, and able to go deeper.

As far as the best path to God, our source. Well ultimately speaking I would hope that we could use a little bit of everything, to get a synergistic effect. Meaning the total effect of each, would be amplified, if we just combined all of them. Though not necessarily to combine them all at once, as this is not possible many times.

Wow. That was beautiful. Definitely caught a tear from reading this. That is the kind of Oneness with God I've always deeply desired since I was a young Christian. Thanks for the post

Glad you got something out of it Aaron. I was definitely in awe, and humbled when I first found this out.

Peace

[Astralzombie]

Too much double-talk.

Absolute nothingness

Oneness with everything

Infinite in a single instance

disintegration  manifestation

nothing was everything

etc,etc,etc,

This is called dazzling with BS. I understand that it is extremely hard explaining such experiences in any language but all these phrases...wait, I do understand "absolute nothingness" now that I consider it in this context.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Too much double-talk.

Absolute nothingness

Oneness with everything

Infinite in a single instance

disintegration  manifestation

nothing was everything

etc,etc,etc,

This is called dazzling with BS. I understand that it is extremely hard explaining such experiences in any language but all these phrases...wait, I do understand "absolute nothingness" now that I consider it in this context.

Actually the word manifestation definitely doesn't describe this state. Yet it's so close to it in a certain way. Since you must in a way become one with all manifestation in order to eventually just dissolve, and be born into God/your source/the unmanifest as it were. Or unborn into God, depending on how you want to see it. The unmanifest which is just the ground substrate where all manifestations came from.

I'm glad you found a way to see it in the way that is best for you AstralZombie, unless you were just being sarcastic. In which case I wouldn't be too surprised to have some opposition here.

Peace.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Too much double-talk.

Absolute nothingness

Oneness with everything

Infinite in a single instance

disintegration  manifestation

nothing was everything

etc,etc,etc,

This is called dazzling with BS. I understand that it is extremely hard explaining such experiences in any language but all these phrases...wait, I do understand "absolute nothingness" now that I consider it in this context.

It's not that far out to think that it would be hard to explain. Even basic meditation can be hard to gasp, the idea is learn how to focus on everything and nothing at once, though it takes a lot of training to do this. Now that may sound like a contradiction. All it basically means is you train the mind to be aware of everything, yet being unattached, unbiased which only slowly leads to the ability to focus on nothing, all at the same time. So what is that like, it's consciousness, stillness, being, silence, and stillness. And if something arises you don't suppress it but become aware of it. Yet remain as unattached as you can. That is all. It can take a lifetime of meditation to get good at this. Advanced meditators can feel inside of their body, and their organs from what I've read. This is because the light of consciousness spreads throughout not only the mind, but their body, and even beyond.

Peace

[Xanth]

PlasmaAstralProjection,
You've obviously read a lot about all of which you're posting about.
There are, however, certain aspects which you don't seem to understand yet... which, given time and experience, I have no doubt you'll figure things out.

Most notably is the concept of "metaphor", as I mentioned above.
Another concept is the one where we say that everyone has a unique perspective of reality.

You've seemingly got all the separate ideas floating around in this thread, I've read them... you've even stated the string that binds them all together, you just haven't made the connection yourself between all of these ideas.  I try not to give people answers... which is why I'm sounding rather cryptic right now.  AZ's post is actually very to the point regarding this.  It's more important for you to figure these things out on your own.  That's was takes it from the intellectual level into your very being and stays with you forever.

What I'd suggest is taking a mental step back from everything you think you know about spirituality and give a look at it from a whole.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Most notably is the concept of "metaphor", as I mentioned above.

Yes I know what you are saying. It's not a metaphor though. I have no idea how much you have read into other religions so at this point I just think that the main thing you believe in right now is astral projection, and that you haven't taken other religions as seriously as I have in understanding them. So you just think it's a metaphor. Try telling the Dali Lama that shunyata is a metaphor. Though the Dali Lama admits he isn't enlightened. That doesn't mean it's a metaphor. And if I did what your doing by speaking all that cryptically here none of us would get anywhere on this subject.

Besides the meditational religions. I just gave a crystal clear example of someone that reached a literal unmanifest. What do you think, the guy was taking a metaphorical psychedelic too? LOL Actually I pointed out 2-3 people that took a psychedelic to reach the unmanifest.

Another concept is the one where we say that everyone has a unique perspective of reality.

Yeah as long as I believe that I am enlightened, then I will be eternally freed from all karmic effects, and I will never have to reincarnate again. This would be funny if it wasn't so far from the truth. I know the connection here with the "your own truth" you were talking about.  

you've even stated the string that binds them all together, you just haven't made the connection yourself between all of these ideas.

Ummm I'm just letting you know that you directly contradicted yourself here. Let me guess the connection is actually metaphorical?

I try not to give people answers... which is why I'm sounding rather cryptic right now.

It's a pride thing, I know. This happens not only with people that think they have high spiritual knowledge, that is above us knowing sometimes, or that we don't deserve it, or that we have to work for it, it also common in advanced meditators. Your not the only one. Pride is a read phenomena that is common in the spiritual path, but you must shed it to go higher into the spiritual. I also see this phenomena with psychedelic users. Especially the ones that are figuring out new things, and they have to use a lot of their time to figure things out. Now there is some truth to the use of doing this type of thing. But that is only in extreme cases, only where what you say can be used against you to hurt you. And I am not talking about losing a debate here. I am more like talking about not giving nuclear weapons technology to people that might use it against you. Pride is not for people that truly do what to know the truth, and who will not use it against those that give it to them.

In the end  to know if you should speak cryptically you should ask yourself is this actually helping the person or am I hindering that person. I don't mind a little cryptic language here and there. But you have to be very careful here.

Lastly what if the scientific community did what you are doing, by talking cryptically. It would take forever for us to get anywhere.

AZ's post is actually very to the point regarding this. It's more important for you to figure these things out on your own. That's was takes it from the intellectual level into your very being and stays with you forever.

I guess I need to buy some 5-MEO-DMT, can I pick you up some? [Edit BTW that was a joke. And i do get the part about figuring things out on my own. That is all I have been doing really. Meaning I have no physical teacher with me. Most of it has been me seeking it, both on the Internet and in practice.]

What I'd suggest is taking a mental step back from everything you think you know about spirituality and give a look at it from a whole.

Your talking in Russian. I've had years to think about these things. All I can really do is..... well I have already done everything needed to prove this state literally exists. Do you want to find actual meditators that have reached a literal substrate consciousness, and they can tell you about it in plain English. I can probably do that too. I can think of a few off the bat I think.

If all your trying to do is humble me into understanding what it experientially means to go inward to the source then I think this is a terrible way to do that.

Peace.

[Xanth]

Oh my...
Just, oh my... O_o

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Oh my...
Just, oh my... O_o

Well that can happen if you talk cryptically. Don't expect to put this all back on me just posting something so simple as that.

I want Szaxx to weigh in on this. And see what he says.

Peace.

[deepspace]

Your talking in Russian. I've had years to think about these things. All I can really do is..... well I have already done everything needed to prove this state literally exists. Do you want to find actual meditators that have reached a literal substrate consciousness, and they can tell you about it in plain English. I can probably do that too. I can think of a few off the bat I think.

If all your trying to do is humble me into understanding what it experientially means to go inward to the source then I think this is a terrible way to do that.
Peace.

It looks to me like you are the one speaking in some other language, the language of other people's theoretical accomplishments. You talk about all of these theoretical concepts which is fine, but what about YOUR experiences? That's what we are doing here in a topic called "Out of Body Experiences". Everyone here is trying to reach a higher state, we are all working on it in our own way, and there is no one path to enlightenment. Instead of talking about what other people are supposedly achieving I think you should talk about where YOU are at, what experiences YOU are having etc. I'm interested to hear them, always open to someone else's experiences shedding light on something new.

[Xanth]

Well that can happen if you talk cryptically. Don't expect to put this all back on me just posting something so simple as that.

I want Szaxx to weigh in on this. And see what he says.

Peace.

Oh, you're not talking cryptically.  I understand you perfectly.
I just don't have the time and inclination to respond to all of that.
Especially when I feel that what I write won't matter anyway. 

I'll just leave it at that and allow one of the other moderators to step in... Szaxx?  Care to take it? 

[Szaxx]

I'll need some time to read a lot of this topic. It's seemingly taking the typical religious debate route. Lol
A quick perusal shows that individualism is showing itself and a dash of fixed mind is being accepted as a postulate of total accuracy.
Keep your minds open to accept new things. The whole CAN be experienced and communicated with ease if opinions are accepted as inputted from individual PERSPECTIVES.
A thought exercise, can you say true or false to this.
Travel 1000 miles east then 1000 miles north and follow this with five mins rest then go 1000 miles south.
Question, is it now possible to end up where you started from?