I did a RTZ verification experiment this morning

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Tombo

Quote from: qbeac
Please, everybody, do you think it would be possible for you to have a "meeting" in the astral plane with another person, and exchange information between the two of you? Have you ever tried that?  

hello qbeac

Thanks for keeping my thread alive  :smile:

Well i think there is the problem of time when meeting somebody. One would assume that two persons have to be out at the same time in the same place and both need clear conciousness in order to meet . That, i think is pretty hard to do. therefore i would assume it is easier to do experiements with objects then with meeting people.

On the other hands this may not really be so! Maybe our understanding of the astral, consciousness and time is much to limited. is time really linear in the astral? maybe not, maybe i can meet you today and you meet me tomorrow?! Well, as  a physicist I don't like time travel that much so..........Well, actually i like them, but you know, I don't wanna think about them too much :lol:
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

Eloquence

Quote from: Tombo
Quote from: qbeac
Please, everybody, do you think it would be possible for you to have a "meeting" in the astral plane with another person, and exchange information between the two of you? Have you ever tried that?  

hello qbeac

Thanks for keeping my thread alive  :smile:

Well i think there is the problem of time when meeting somebody. One would assume that two persons have to be out at the same time in the same place and both need clear conciousness in order to meet . That, i think is pretty hard to do. therefore i would assume it is easier to do experiements with objects then with meeting people.

On the other hands this may not really be so! Maybe our understanding of the astral, consciousness and time is much to limited. is time really linear in the astral? maybe not, maybe i can meet you today and you meet me tomorrow?! Well, as  a physicist I don't like time travel that much so..........Well, actually i like them, but you know, I don't wanna think about them too much :lol:

Yeah, but it wouldnt matter though right? I read somewhere that time really has no meaning on the astral plane, you can go to the past or even see the future. (I could be totally wrong here, so yeah, no quoting me on this!) So even if the other person projected "tomorrow" just the desire to meet them would mean you could?
But if thats true... then that could also mean that you could both just arrive at totally different times and still meet because you time travelled...
Man, talk about a headache lol.
When there's no more room in the oven, the bread will walk the earth.

qbeac

Hi everybody,

The debate we are having in the Spanish science forum 100cia.com about OBE and AP is raising controversy. We are talking about the possibility of a scientific paradigm shift in case OBE were to be proven to be real experiences as opposed to imaginary ones. Right now many scientists from the scientific community believe they are only imaginary experiences.

So, I would like to ask all of you two very important questions regarding this topic:

1) Please, has any of you ever tried doing a GROUP OBE? That is, have you ever been able to meet with somebody else in the astral plane?

2) In case you have, what kind of information do you think you could exchange with another person in those circumstances?

For instance, could you tell that person a single "specific word" which that person could remember and report about it later? Or perhaps you could describe to that person a very specific "whatever" which that person could understand and report on it later...???

Please, we would appreciate very much if you could elaborate a little bit about this issue.

Thank you very much. qbeac.

P.S. 1. In case you would like to see the Spanish debate, these are two links to it:

- ¡ Cómo se crea un Paradigma !
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?t=6346&page=1&pp=10
- Post #362, pag. 37. Definición de "Veridical NDE"
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=41601#post41601

P.S. 2. For more information about Group OBE and other types of valid experiments, see:

- Post #3, pag.1. Types of experiments (Agnostic Method, Group OBE, telekinesis)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21581

Tombo

Hello qbeac

I heard about several meetings but usually I read about such things in the dream forums. It is usually called shared dreaming.

For example you can find some reports here:

http://forum.ld4all.com/viewforum.php?f=6

for example:

http://forum.ld4all.com/viewtopic.php?t=10238

or

http://ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3340

There were also once two members there, called R3TRO and Freecube that claimed they could meet frequently in their dreams and exchange infos. Can't find that post right now though.

I personally think it is possible, but do not have any personal proof for it.

regards, Tom
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

qbeac

Hi everybody, a Conference about human consciousness is going to be held next April-06 in Tucson, Arizona. I have been checking out the program of the conference and it sounds very interesting. Here it is:

- Conference: "Toward a Science of Consciousness 2006."
Universidad de Arizona. USA. April 4-8, 2006, Tucson Convention Center, Tucson, Arizona

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/tucson2006.htm
- List of participants in the Conference:
http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/concurrents.htm
- Intracellular and Quantum Aspects of Consciousness (VERY INTERESTING)
Paavo Pylkkanen, Nancy J. Woolf, Jack Tuszynski, Stuart Hameroff
http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/qm.htm

Additionally, I don't know if you already know about Penrose-Hameroff model of consciousness, which is based on the possible relation between the brain and Quantum Mechanics. Here it is:

- Penrose-Hameroff model of consciousness. "Orch OR" Model for Consciousness".
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR

--------------------

One more thing to everyone in general:

In case any of you has ever tried "Group OBEs", that is, having a meeting with other people in the astral plane, please, let us know. Thanks a lot (Note: for more information about Group OBE experiments, see Post #3 of this same thread).

Chao. qbeac.

jalef

Wow :shock:

That seems to become a very big deal. It would be very cool if you manage it to proove OBEs once and for all :grin:
The truely wise man knows that he knows nothing!
  - Confuzius

Telos

Quote from: FrankBearing all this in mind, you need then to be careful how you go about things... else all manner of reality fluctuations can come about. For example, it is only natural that you should question your experiences. This is a great way to make progress provided the questioning aspect comes about as a result of natural curiosity. Over years of trial and error, I found the best most productive mental state to have while within the Astral realms: is to remain emotionally neutral, while maintaining a natural air of mild curiosity.

However, if the questioning comes about as a result of Doubt, then you need to be ever mindful of the fact that any release of thoughts of Doubt - while within the Astral - will instantly lead to you experiencing circumstances that support whatever level of Doubt you are feeling.

Then, just like in my release of fear example above, finding yourself all of a sudden in a situation where your doubts are justified, will normally have the effect of making you feel even more doubtful; so your circumstances will instantly become such that your doubts are reinforced all the more; which in turn makes you doubt all the more still; and so on, and so on.......

It's unfortunate that now and again I come across a person who once managed to successfully project to the Astral and subsequently concluded that it was all some kind of brain-generated fantasy.

We had someone come onto this BBS last year who was adamant on this. From reading into where they were coming from, it was obvious the person had been projecting to the Focus 22 state while releasing feelings of doubt. Of course, this person's doubts were immediately reinforced each time to the extent where they became utterly convinced their doubts were 110% genuine. All of which then blinded this person to the facts about what had truly taken place.

I really want to know who he was talking about. ;)

MisterJingo

Quote from: Telos
Quote from: FrankBearing all this in mind, you need then to be careful how you go about things... else all manner of reality fluctuations can come about. For example, it is only natural that you should question your experiences. This is a great way to make progress provided the questioning aspect comes about as a result of natural curiosity. Over years of trial and error, I found the best most productive mental state to have while within the Astral realms: is to remain emotionally neutral, while maintaining a natural air of mild curiosity.

However, if the questioning comes about as a result of Doubt, then you need to be ever mindful of the fact that any release of thoughts of Doubt - while within the Astral - will instantly lead to you experiencing circumstances that support whatever level of Doubt you are feeling.

Then, just like in my release of fear example above, finding yourself all of a sudden in a situation where your doubts are justified, will normally have the effect of making you feel even more doubtful; so your circumstances will instantly become such that your doubts are reinforced all the more; which in turn makes you doubt all the more still; and so on, and so on.......

It's unfortunate that now and again I come across a person who once managed to successfully project to the Astral and subsequently concluded that it was all some kind of brain-generated fantasy.

We had someone come onto this BBS last year who was adamant on this. From reading into where they were coming from, it was obvious the person had been projecting to the Focus 22 state while releasing feelings of doubt. Of course, this person's doubts were immediately reinforced each time to the extent where they became utterly convinced their doubts were 110% genuine. All of which then blinded this person to the facts about what had truly taken place.

I really want to know who he was talking about. ;)

Ah, but the problem with this is that it is one sided. While Frank admits being doubtful will create manifestations to reinforce that doubt. Being a full believer will create manifestations to reinforce that belief. On both occasions the manifestations might hold no truth, they are just relfections of ones desire. Either way, If we follow this as truth, fully believing is as bad as fully doubting as both will lead down a self created delusionary path.

Even slightly believing or doubting will eventually lead to the same place if the above is right:

Quote
However, if the questioning comes about as a result of Doubt, then you need to be ever mindful of the fact that any release of thoughts of Doubt - while within the Astral - will instantly lead to you experiencing circumstances that support whatever level of Doubt you are feeling.

So the doubt or belief will be reinforced over time until it blinds us to any truth?

So which way are we supposed to walk?  :confused:

Telos

He said follow the way of natural curiosity. If the same logic applies, one would find that this will naturally lead to more curiosity, hopefully retaining the openness that doubt offers without gullibility.

MisterJingo

Quote from: TelosHe said follow the way of natural curiosity. If the same logic applies, one would find that this will naturally lead to more curiosity, hopefully retaining the openness that doubt offers without gullibility.

I can see the truth in that. But it seems there are few who are naturally curious and not bound by a belief system for either OBEs being more than brain induced, or OBEs actually being a product of the brain.

I guess the point of my previous post was that it made much of being too doubtful without touching on the fact that having too much belief can be equally as harmfull.

CFTraveler

Quote from: MisterJingo
Quote from: TelosHe said follow the way of natural curiosity. If the same logic applies, one would find that this will naturally lead to more curiosity, hopefully retaining the openness that doubt offers without gullibility.

I can see the truth in that. But it seems there are few who are naturally curious and not bound by a belief system for either OBEs being more than brain induced, or OBEs actually being a product of the brain.

I guess the point of my previous post was that it made much of being too doubtful without touching on the fact that having too much belief can be equally as harmfull.
What about people (as children) who have OBEs naturally and don't even know they're not supposed to happen?  They really have no expectation- so IMO if there is an experience you can 'trust' as not having being influenced by any expectations it's the kind children have.  Now, that doesn't mean it's not created by the brain, but at least the experience itself isn't created of influenced by expectation (at least the first few times.) Maybe that is why my experiences as a child projector were vastly different from the way they go now as an adult.
So maybe we should 'become like children', as one once said, and approach the situation the same way a child would.  If we can.

Ben K

Quote from: MisterJingo
Quote from: TelosHe said follow the way of natural curiosity. If the same logic applies, one would find that this will naturally lead to more curiosity, hopefully retaining the openness that doubt offers without gullibility.

I can see the truth in that. But it seems there are few who are naturally curious and not bound by a belief system for either OBEs being more than brain induced, or OBEs actually being a product of the brain.

I guess the point of my previous post was that it made much of being too doubtful without touching on the fact that having too much belief can be equally as harmfull.
If only that were the problem in todays world haha :grin:

I think he didnt touch on the area of releasing too much belief because that isnt a typical reaction to the dream environment. Most people fall into the trap of releasing fear, doubt, or anxiety while in that environment. Which of course causes more manifestations of that fear, doubt, or anxiety. Not too many people have the balls to go the other way.

They key is simply not to release any emotional energy. it takes awhile to get used to im sure but if you dont you will get "reality fluctuations" galore, which is basically just when an emotion manifests itself around you. emotions are a necessary part of physical life but in other areas of reality they can be a hindrance. good thing we have free will ;)
EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

Tombo

hello everybody

I found your discussion very interesting unfortunately I do not have the time right now to join in.

I would recommend the following article to you guys cause it touches similar questions. It is pretty long but very well written. I found the section about "Dynamic and static matter" especially intriguing.

http://www.future-horizons.co.uk/doc/A_Short_Discourse_On_OBE_Perception.doc

I wonder what Frank and Gav would think of each others theories?

Regards Tom
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

MisterJingo

Quote from: CFTraveler
What about people (as children) who have OBEs naturally and don't even know they're not supposed to happen?  They really have no expectation- so IMO if there is an experience you can 'trust' as not having being influenced by any expectations it's the kind children have.  Now, that doesn't mean it's not created by the brain, but at least the experience itself isn't created of influenced by expectation (at least the first few times.) Maybe that is why my experiences as a child projector were vastly different from the way they go now as an adult.
So maybe we should 'become like children', as one once said, and approach the situation the same way a child would.  If we can.

I agree with what you say, what I meant by "too much belief" is that in the example given by frank, in the astral doubt was reinforced and so the projector proved it wasn't real (if this proof was real or not we cannot say). But the same again, if someone buys into a belief system (such as Monroe's, or Bruce's etc) purely on faith and believes it totally (I see a lot of that) then that belief will be reinforced and they will prove to themselves such a thing (reality taking that form) is true.
I wasn't talking about belief in being able to project or not (this seems to be accomplishable irregardless of outlook or belief), but what we find, and pictures of reality we build once we are projecting.
So where is the truth in all this? Doubt creates self-fulfilling fantasy; too much belief creates such fantasy yet again.
Are we capable of finding any form of universal truth when projecting? Some will say no, but I think behind all experience there will be core elements, we just interpret them differently. If we don't have enough belief we might miss them or misinterpret them, the same again if we have too much.
A child will take the experiences at face value – and so will perhaps get closer to any kind of truth, someone with strong belief either way will interpret those experiences in context of their belief – and so might miss things, or misinterpret things.

I'm not sure if this makes it any clearer?
:confused:

Ie if you have totally integrated a belief such as Bruces view of the astral into your own, any experience you have will be fitted into that belief system, so you forever work within the confines of it - rather than being open to whatever happens.

Ps. I am in no way saying Bruces or Monroes view is wrong, just that their view and interpretation is personal to them - and perhaps takes its form due to their life experiences, outlook, personality, subconsious etc. And so fitting anothers belief system onto ourself might see it 'ill-fit'.

MisterJingo

Just to add something. Perhaps my outlook as to the uses of AP is incompatible with others. I see AP as a means of furthering knowledge of self and reality, wheras others might see it simply as a means in itself.

MisterJingo

Quote from: Ben K
If only that were the problem in todays world haha :grin:

I think he didnt touch on the area of releasing too much belief because that isnt a typical reaction to the dream environment. Most people fall into the trap of releasing fear, doubt, or anxiety while in that environment. Which of course causes more manifestations of that fear, doubt, or anxiety. Not too many people have the balls to go the other way.

They key is simply not to release any emotional energy. it takes awhile to get used to im sure but if you dont you will get "reality fluctuations" galore, which is basically just when an emotion manifests itself around you. emotions are a necessary part of physical life but in other areas of reality they can be a hindrance. good thing we have free will ;)

Ah, perhaps I misunderstood what Frank meant. He seemed to suggest a sceptic was projecting to F22, and because their questioning was from a position of doubt ("if the questioning comes about as a result of Doubt"), all they found was things to reinforce their doubt. I didn't read it as how fear reactions can have an immediate effect on astral environments, but a persons intentions will eventually see those intentions satisfied (i.e. total doubt will beget proof you were right to doubt).
Something I seem to observe frequently is that people will first discover the OBE state is true, and because the OBE state is true, the neutral curiosity goes out of the window and they take on board a whole belief system of reality, the astral and anything. After all my years of projecting I wouldn't dare to assume I know the workings of reality – I do know a lot of peoples theories, but I haven't validated or rejected any in their entirely due to lack of direct knowledge and experience.
Other people make the mistake that because a 'guru' eventually led them to project, then all of that guru's knowledge is true and they believe it as a known.
That's what I meant by too much belief. People project with belief they take as 'knowns', and so their preconceptions are eventually validated, not because they are necessarily true, but because the astral seems to reflect and reinforce what we believe.
If we are bound within a belief, and all astral experiences are reflecting this belief, then we will literally only encounter things contained within this beliefs philosophy. Sort of like a deep preconception will either bend an experience in the way of the preconception, or stop us experiencing what we would have otherwise.

Sepultura123

I agree with you a lot. Monroe system is just one behind thousand of them. We have all our personnal belief of AP . Monroe method are just there to help you and make thing clear , they are not necessary all true.

Believe in your own self.

qbeac

Hi Tombo and everyone else:

Tombo, I think you'll like this (perhaps you already know about it?):

- The Structure of the Multiverse:
NASA (APOD): http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060301.html
Multiverse (wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

- Quantum Physics, abstract. quant-ph/0104033
From: David Deutsch [view email]. Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:47:57 GMT   (421kb)
The Structure of the Multiverse
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033
Pdf format: http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0104033
http://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0104/0104033.pdf

---------------------------

Question to everybody:

Perhaps in an OBE a person is able to get into some of the others universes?

In case anybody is interested in trying "Group OBE" experiments to meet other people in the astral plane and exchange verifiable information among each other, please, contact us. We are interested in performing those types of experiments. Thanks.

Take care. qbeac.

Nostic

Quote from: TomboHello everybody :smile:

Once again i did a verification experiment. I will just describe what happened and then we can discuss it.

Ok

Experimental Setting

My girlfriend placed a object on top of the wardrobe. This can be anything, but it should be fairly small, 3-dimensional and unique. She used things like a needle, hair clip, or a ball of wool in the past.

Why this setting?

I use this setting because  to me it seems very difficult to guess the object since it can virtually be anything. At least the chance to guess is way smaller then, for example guessing a playing card.
I also figured, it may be easier to perceive a real object compared to a abstract number for example. Also the goal of this experiments is not to proof anything but to explore the possibility of proof.

Outcome
I already did this experiment a couple of times in the past. Did it again twice this morning and the outcome is comparable each time.

Ok so here we go:

1. attempt

I awoke in the morning and still felt the sleep paralysis, so I figured this may be a good opportunity to project. I managed to "crawl" away from me body and moved to the living room (where the wardrobe is at) after about 30 sec my sight became brighter and I saw the wardrobe in front of me (the projection was weak, I almost lost focus a couple of times). I picked the bowl where the object was placed in and looked at it. To my surprise a Butterfly fluttered inside the bowl. I was aware of the fact, that it is highly unlikely that my girlfriend placed a butterfly inside the bowl, but I hoped that the real target may have a relation to a butterfly. That very moment I was pulled back to me body.

I did not move and managed to split from my body again

2. Attempt

I again moved to the wardrobe and this time remembered that Robert bruce once said, I should try to pull energy to the astral body trough breathing to enhance clarity. I did so and felt I vibrating sensation on my forehead (brow chakra)
I again looked inside the bowl and the my surprise saw a living bee that was humming there :eek: . I clearly say the yellow orange color of the bee with black sparkles.

What was the real target?

The real target was a tube of skin cream?! even with fantasy i can't find any match between a Butterfly a bee and skin cream :confused:

Questions

-Am I doing something wrong?
- what could I do to perceive the real object?
-what interpretations and conclusions can i draw from this experiments?
-any hints, ideas, suggestions, comments?

remark

After the second attempt a flow out of the window. There a saw a freeway right behind our house (in reality there is no freeway within 3 miles)
I found this perfectly normal. It didn't even cross my mind that there is no such freeway in reality. it actually felt very familiar! perfectly normal.

Was I not enough aware to do the experiments properly?

Best Regards Tom and sorry for the long post :smile:

There has always been a lot of talk in regards to objectively proving the validity of astral projection. And even those individuals with years of experience seem to be inept when it comes down to verifiable proof.

This is my theory: what I think is that if you have not established certain bio-electrical, physiological connections within your physical system (and in particular, your brain), establishing indisputable proof is pretty much impossible. Think about it. You want to verify things in the physical world, right? The physical brain is your anchor and connection to the physical world. When the typical person projects, their connection to the physical body is weak. This is evidenced by the fact that the physical body becomes unconscious when you are out. It has been said and experienced many times that when you're in the astral and you think of your body, you are instantly drawn back to it. So it's like an "either/or" scenario. Either you have body/physical-world consciousness, or you have out-of-body/alternate-reality consciousness.

I think what happens when we project is that we are entering alternate realities. This makes verifying things in our physical world impossible (at least with 100% accuracy). In order to verify things in our physical world, I believe that your link to this world, the body, must be conditioned in such a way as to establish certain physiological connections. So in a sense, rather than splintering away from the body, you are instead basically expanding your body.

The other day I had a brief experience of being able to feel things around me without using my normal sense of touch. That is very much what I'm talking about. If you can expand your body so that you can feel objects around you without using your physical body (with you and your physical body being 100% fully conscious and aware) that is what I'm getting at. And if you can feel, it's only natural that that would lead to actually being able to see (without using your physical eyes). But you need to establish a clear and direct connection with your physical brain in order to properly view all of these "outside" things. It takes so much work though, but I am pushing forward. I haven't posted anything here in a very long time, but I've never stopped in regards to my practice.

qbeac

Hi Nostic, you say:

"This makes verifying things in our physical world impossible (at least with 100% accuracy)."

Well, we are not looking nor we need 100% accuracy. On the contrary, a much lower accuracy would be more than enough to show there is indeed an anomaly which does not have an explanation according to current scientific knowledge, because we are going to compare the results of "the group of projectors" with the "control group"... that is, we are only looking for statistical significant differences between the two groups.

We have explained that with much more detail in this post:

- Post #8, pag. 8. Detailed explanation of the Agnostic Method in english:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=180207#180207

qbeac

Quote from: NosticThere has always been a lot of talk in regards to objectively proving the validity of astral projection. And even those individuals with years of experience seem to be inept when it comes down to verifiable proof....(...)
Hi Nostic, thanks for your comments, but what do you think about the following things:

- In Post #10, pag. 2 of this same thread, Gav thinks "reading the words is extremely hard but it is not impossible":
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21581&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=10
Gav's Word document about the RTZ (a must read!):
http://www.future-horizons.co.uk/doc/A_Short_Discourse_On_OBE_Perception.doc

- Jerry Gross, a very experienced projector, has been able to do really amazing things, such as this one (http://www.near-death.com/gross.html):
Jerry says, quote: "I've been asked to prove this many times, in radio shows, and at the Whole Life Expo at the Los Angeles Convention Center where I traveled astrally from St. Paul, Minnesota to Los Angeles and moved a box they had set up on the stage for me."

- We believe there must be some type of connection between the astral and the physical plane because of what happens during a "Veridical NDE":
http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case_types.cfm#OOB
Definition of Veridical NDE: **experiencer acquires verifiable information that they could not have obtained by any normal means"

- The following is one example of a "Veridical NDE" included in The Lancet study by Dr. Pim van Lommel (2001). So, the case of "the patient who lost his dentures while being resuscitated after a cardiac arrest" seems to imply there must be a connection between the astral and the physical plane. You'll be able to see it here (inside this article, look for the word "dentures"):
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm

- Besides reading the words, there are other types of methods which could also provide scientific proof, for instance, see Post #3, pag. 1 of this same thread: "2) Group OBE. Trying to communicate with another person who is also in the astral plane with you... and exchange different types of "verifiable information" between the two of you (Note: this "verifiable information" could be more flexible than just two plain words)."

Please, Nostic, do you think this last method (Group OBE) would be possible to do?

Thanks. qbeac.

Nostic

Quote from: qbeacHi Nostic, you say:

"This makes verifying things in our physical world impossible (at least with 100% accuracy)."

Well, we are not looking nor we need 100% accuracy. On the contrary, a much lower accuracy would be more than enough to show there is indeed an anomaly which does not have an explanation according to current scientific knowledge, because we are going to compare the results of "the group of projectors" with the "control group"... that is, we are only looking for statistical significant differences between the two groups.

We have explained that with much more detail in this post:

- Post #8, pag. 8. Detailed explanation of the Agnostic Method in english:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=180207#180207


Hi qbeac

I can totally understand where you are coming from when you say this. But I have to say, for me personally, I would like 100% accuracy. Not necessarily to prove anything to the world. But so that I can say without question that I am absolutely clear in what I'm seeing and what I'm experiencing. Am I seeing the "real" physical world or not? That's not the important point really. What is important is weather or not I'm seeing the physical world when I believe that I am. For me it's about clarity.

Now, people can make many claims as to what they can do. And, their abilities may in fact be 100% real. That is entirely possible. But what I want is a record; a public record. I admire those who have tried experiments on these boards. But so far, it's clear that no one has stepped up to the plate and showed us clearly and unquestionably that they have the ability to remotely observe or manipulate specific targets in our physical reality.

And again, it's not particularly important to me to prove anything to the world. I'd just like to... make things a bit more real. Not only for myself, but also for everyone else who has an interest in these kinds of subjects.

Nostic

Quote from: qbeac

- Besides reading the words, there are other types of methods which could also provide scientific proof, for instance, see Post #3, pag. 1 of this same thread: "2) Group OBE. Trying to communicate with another person who is also in the astral plane with you... and exchange different types of "verifiable information" between the two of you (Note: this "verifiable information" could be more flexible than just two plain words)."

Please, Nostic, do you think this last method (Group OBE) would be possible to do?

Thanks. qbeac.

Certainly it would be possible. I don't believe in impossible. But this kind of thing has been tried before here on these boards. And all I can say is that we've got a lot of work to do.  :grin:

qbeac

Quote from: NosticI can totally understand where you are coming from when you say this. But I have to say, for me personally, I would like 100% accuracy. Not necessarily to prove anything to the world. But so that I can say without question that I am absolutely clear in what I'm seeing and what I'm experiencing. Am I seeing the "real" physical world or not?
Hi Nostic, I can totally understand that you prefer 100% accuracy for yourself, but believe me, in order to obtain "solid scientific proof", 100% accuracy is not necessary (a much lower percentage would be sufficient), because so far we are only looking for an "anomaly" that should not be present according to current scientific knowledge, and if we could find it, that would be a VERY BIG DEAL!!! This anomaly could be found by simply comparing the results between the "group of projectors" and the "control group", providing there are indeed statistical significant differences between the results of both groups. We have discussed this issue in detail in Post #8, pag. 8:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=180207#180207

Please, let me summarize the reasons why it is important to do scientific experiments. This is why:

- The Scientific community only accepts the results of experiments which have been published in prestigious Scientific Journals (Ex: Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc.). For them, anything which does not appear in a those types of Journals, simply does not exist, period! For instance, all your testimonies and experiences in this forum, however convincing (and even if they appeared in other types of "non scientific" magazines or books), do not exist for the Scientific Community.

- In order for an experiment to appear in a prestigious Scientific Journal, it should comply to several important requirements:
1) It should be performed according to the Scientific Method.
2) It should pass the process of "Peer Review" (several independent scientist should check it out to make sure there are not mistakes, etc.).
3) Once the previous requirements are met, it should finally be published in the Scientific Journal.

This is one example of an experiment about NDE which finally made it:

- Dr. Pim van Lommel NDE study published in The Lancet in 2001:
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm
- Interview with Dr. Pim van Lommel about his NDE study. ODE magazine (Life goes on), issue 29, November 2005:
http://www.odemagazine.com/article.php?aID=4207

- The end result of being able to publish OBE experiments in one of those Scientific Journals is that the credibility of OBE will increase A LOT!!! Therefore, many people that today still cannot smell the roses, will be able to smell the roses! And this was an analogy used by BillionNamesofGod in Post #1 to #3, at link:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=70

You'll find further details about 1) the importance of obtaining scientific proof and 2) the reason why these experiences still do not have scientific credibility nowadays, at links:

- Post #2. Some good reasons to try to obtain scientific proof of OBE
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907
 
- Post #4, #5, #6. Reasons for today's lack of credibility of OBEs (Thread: Whats Your Proof?):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=70

Quote from: NosticCertainly it would be possible. I don't believe in impossible. But this kind of thing has been tried before here on these boards. And all I can say is that we've got a lot of work to do.
Ok, please, why don't you people give it a try and see what happens? If any of you can perform "Group OBEs" and exchange verifiable information between each other (Ex: even flexible information, a general conversation, an idea, etc.), we would be glad to talk with you about it.

Thanks. qbeac.

skropenfield

QuoteThe Scientific community only accepts the results of experiments which have been published in prestigious Scientific Journals

Let us take a certain guaranteed OBE induction, a new design of TMS device. What will this give in sense of  Scientific Enterprise?

                                                                                                        1. Experimental Control of Conditions. Very good.
2. Repeatability. Very good.
3. We can only assert negatives (falsifiability)...
4. Prediction.  Good.
5. Quantification (as measurement or counting). Good
6. Control Groups. Very good.
7. Methods must be public and publicly reported. Very good.
8. The observed events must be public. Very good.
9. Objectivity in observations, that is, investigator's beliefs and expectations should not
influence the observations and reports of them... Good.
10. Comparison of one observation or set of observations (usually new ones) with another
observation or set of observations (usually what is known or thought to be known)...
11. Superior explanatory power of theory derived from the new observations... Good.
12. Repeated testing of theory against new observations and alternative theories. Very good.
13. Independent replication of observations. Very good.
14. 100% accuracy of "astral senses". Very good. For example in a 2002 BBC Radio debate, Dr. Olaf Blanke revealed that the epileptic patient - who unexpectedly reported out-of-body perceptions when her right-angular gyrus was stimulated - actually made visual observations of the operating room that the conventional scientific paradigm cannot explain. Even though he understandably excluded these details from the article published in the journal Nature, the Bern neuroscientist did not dismiss the possibility of the objective out-of-body experience, stating many more studies should be carried out. Although he is unsure how patients can see themselves, given no such information is picked up by their eyes. :laughing4:
15. What we may call a majority vote that is needed to authenticate
new observations or theories, the question of authority in science.
Who is to say what facts are firmly established and accepted without serious doubt?
An overwhelming majority of competent well-informed scientists. In practice these scientists, or other persons of authority, who control appointments, promotions, funding, and access to publication in journals and books, make judgments about objectivity. In this instance the method and apparatus gives some unique possibilities. For example make a guinea pig from any authority personally. :scared2:
16. Outer empiricism of natural sciences. Good. Most contemporary philosophers are physicalists. They believe that, in a relevant sense, everything is ultimately physical. However, very few contemporary philosophers take substance dualism seriously, the thesis that the mental -the soul- and the physical are two distinct kinds of substance that interact with each other. Nevertheless note that for skeptical mentality it seems easy to judge between dualism and materialism, because unlike most religious doctrines, the notion of the soul is an idea that would seem to have testable consequences.

Clairvoyant view shows the projecting entity as certain egg-like form, with a face...



This is supposedly the astral body of well-known magi Boris Monosov. The ,,astralness" reminds a bit of Axion Detection via Consistent Radiographic Findings after Exposure to a Torsion Generator.
But today it is known, that the virtual bodies can become observable by virtue of weak optical anomalies (abnormal optical dispersion and weak self-luminescence in visible IR-and UV-areas of  spectrum), localized in the environment of its active interaction with material objects or as display of trace effect. These traces have secondary character and can be easily detected by electron-optical, photographic, etc. methods what has involuntarily led some authors to conclusions in sense of substitution of causes with consequences.

http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/4-1/Benford-axion.htm

QuoteSo maybe you can trigger OBE by stimulating the angular gyrus?

Not simply some kind of "stimulation", but inhibition, shutting down of angular gyrus, this is insufficiently understood. Inhibition of angular gyrus leads to shutting down of "astral hold" (or metastable symbiosis of subtle bodies with physical body) what allows OBEs, may be in such terms in sense of substance dualism.

                                                                                                          The effect of the external magnetic or electrical stimulation is dependent of the amount of energy given. There may be no clinical effect or sometimes stimulation is seen when only a small amount of energy is given, for instance during stimulation of the motoric cortex. But during "stimulation" with higher energy inhibition of local cortical functions occurs by extinction of the electrical and magnetic fields resulting in inhibition of local neuronal networks. Also in the patient described by Blanke in Nature stimulation with higher electric energy was given, resulting in inhibition of the function of the local neuronal networks in the gyrus angularis (Lommel).

                                                                                                      Let us take a simple model in sense of SUBSTANCE DUALISM. Body and subtle bodies. But even low quality pictures show the story is not as simple about. The woman is trying to astral project, you'll notice her aura shifted from its normal position around her body and afterwards she described being outside herself - but not very far. She stands on a metal plate that is driven from a high frequency, high voltage Tesla coil. This coil is fed with a "swept" range of low level microwave frequencies that in turn stimulate the body field. The image is picked up using a special CCD



(charge coupled detectors), that is sensitive and tuneable to a wide range of frequencies ranging from microwaves to low IR. The second image is when she actively tried to project; she said something was holding her back, keeping her from projecting out. It is quite amazing to see the glowing chakras move to the edge of the skin trying to follow the astral image at the side of the picture. To make the true image, the subject is simultaneously videotaped with a standard video camera. That visible image is then superimposed on top of the actual aura field to yield the composite images that we see (with exposure of less than 15 seconds). (Chuck Shramek.).
One may ask what guaranties the metastable symbiosis from physical body with subtle bodies. Let us talk about mechanism. OBE is possible, but not because "anyone can". Detailed considerations rather show you let down, cheat certain 1)fundamental 2)infallible mechanism, in a bit naive terms "hold of astral body", the brain is computer, it is clear, but also astral body is unimaginable complicated computer. May be the most people will prefer that this symbiosis is guarantied simply so, without any energy-informative cause, so to speak in sense of "spiritual babble". So a mechanism that prohibits separation in any circumstances including inhuman pain, stress etc. etc. The one from very few who somehow reached such interpretation is Anne Varnes.                                                                                                                                                                                                           ,,The reason that some people have an easier time astral projecting is that their magnetic hold is looser on their astral body. Loose holds are the exception, not the norm. The fortunate few can induce the vibrations during meditation only. And even fewer still can project from the alpha state of consciousness (light relaxation). If you have a naturally loose hold, then you will be able to lie down, breathe deeply, relax for about 15-20 minutes and then start to feel your astral arms or legs lift generally accompanied with the vibrations. Everyone else will feel the sensation of either being numb or a light tingling, and that is it. Interestingly enough, loose holds seem to be hereditary which makes me think that it's the physical body that holds the astral, vs. the astral clinging to the physical (an astral form cannot carry human genes for it has no role in reproduction)."
 Interestingly, such a trick- rapid and sufficient inhibition of TPJ gives temporary switching down of this horrible computer- computer guarantying metastable symbiosis (or reincarnational ontogenesis) of "subtle" bodies with physical body. Obviously, the abovementioned computer is more fundamental than brain. A good example is van Lommel results. Clinical death, shutting down of whole brain turns out as very less effective in sense of instantaneous separation than particular inhibition of TPJ. Van Lommel's article in Lancet http://www.iands.org/dutch_study.html#how_to_find                             shows only 12% clinically dead patients seems to have what the physicians called a "core" or "deep" NDE, (12%"immediate" separations and this by such arch-grave factor as clinical death!!!).
The main induction technique of Astral Projection obviously is induction of  (micro) seizures (people whose brains are prone to membrane fusion and to recurrent low-level epileptogene foci) in electrically unstable parts of cortex (with ensuing inhibition in the ,,exact" part). A little collection of somatosensory and auditory hallucinations (vibrations)... What follows? For a full emulation of this technique we need certain external induction of certain charge density (of the order of 0, 03-0,3mkC/cm3) in part of cortex trough electrical field.



Let us take ROTATING SUPERMAGNET as transcranial magnetic stimulation tool. Rotating magnet and solenoid see http://www.physics.lsa.umich.edu/demolab/demo.asp?id=642.





Figure. Magnetic resonance image in ANALYZE imaging software demonstrating a method of measuring the distance from scalp to cortex at the site of TMS stimulation by drawing a consistent rectangle, outlining the surface of cortex and scalp,
and sampling the intervening area in mm2.                                                                                                    

The field of supermagnet 1X1in. has following dimensions by maxim.  value  



round about 1,5T. We can take an induction coil and compare Voltage induced by some regular TMS device and rotating supermagnet (cylinder or cube 1X1in., rotating axis perpendicularly to NS axis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). For equal single pulse Voltage rotation frequency may be will get very big. For typical 30kT/s (at surface of windings of regular TMS device) we must have of the order of 5000 rotations per second, for the same as at surface of hull (of regular TMS device) naturally less, 1000-2000 rotations per second). But we must not forget that this frequency must be divided by certain K (round about 10...). 1) We have sinusoidal variable, not avalanche-like dropping magnetic flux density.[Wb = Vs]  
This makes 2-4 times more charge per time constant (300 mksec.). 2) Biologically superhigh frequency factor is 2-3 times. 3) Our goal is not convulsions, but minim. initial symptoms, this also makes 2-3 times, so we have K 10 or more...Consequently, we have rotating supermagnet frequency at least in any case less than 1000 per sec. The right and accurate tactics may be consist in- reach first indubitable symptoms (the famous micropsia, macropsia, falling sensation, floating sensation, flying sensation, or in many cases the abovementioned vibrations, etc.) and hold on the device certain amount of seconds with ensuing sufficiently persistent inhibition (getting-dark) in TPJ,



,,prolonged cortical silent period". We speak rather about electrical, cellular working-out and temporary getting-dark in TPJ, than instantaneous electrical jamming as in Blankes experiment. A few high quality brain scans (EEG) with high spatial and temporal resolution from some real projectors in process of real AP will be helpful by determination of



right tactics, but it exist no such scans...    The existing scans confirm what is said about angular gyrus. What this will give? It makes possible the induction of real OBEs in any experimental subject at will, also in several subjects simultaneously.                                          Direct instrumental measurement of projecting "entity", so to say a collaboration of unlimited extrasomatic phenomenology. Not so unthinkable task if you have guaranteed OBE induction in any experimental subject. To measurement data it is impossible to stick neither hallucinations, nor super-psi or subject-components of self-models, see Thomas Metzinger Out-of-Body Experiences as the Origin of the Concept of a "Soul".

                                        http://www.mindmatter.de/mmpdf/metzinger.pdf  

                                                                                                      Prof. Stephen Braude Out-of-Body Experiences and Survival After Death

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/braude/obe.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Why rotating supermagnet??? Simply you have excellent parameters, excellent dimensions!!! Moreover, Tribune de Geneve La decouverte que vous attendez?
L'induction experimentale de la decorporation.                                                                                    Contour map of scalp potentials recorded with 60-channel EEG after left motor cortex



TMS.                                                                                                   Regular TMS devices by parameters in accordance with guidelines (...and precisely over TPJ) obviously can give no more as initial OBE symptoms, so we can make appropriate conclusions, rotating supermagnet have only one focus of limited dimensions, much more smaller as in picture, so in any case we don't have the necessity to reach the convulsions threshold...
As to convulsions- in accurate work with right temporal lobe (angular gyrus) convulsions must be avoidable, it is considered for opportune in this region epileptic seizures without convulsions. Seizures involving no motor symptoms or loss of consciousness and not being recognized by the patient may actually be more frequent than commonly thought , a case study of a patient who first experienced OBEs for a number of years and only later suffered from generalized seizures, Vuilleumier, Despland, Assal, and Regli 1997 . Heautoscopie, extase et hallucinations experientielles d'origine epileptique. Revue Neurologique 153: 115-119, if the discharge remains within one lobe and does not propagate to motor regions, no epileptic convulsions occur. In fact, the observer might not realize the person is experiencing an electrical seizure; nevertheless, there are often clear experiential phenomena that are generated even without after- discharges, Persinger, 1989.



Fig.                                                                                              Mean lesion overlap analysis of the five patients in whom a lesion could be defined (Patients 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6). Each patient is indicated in the same colour as in Fig... The results of the individual lesion analysis of each patient were transposed onto the left hemisphere of Patient 5. Mean overlap analysis centred on the TPJ (area indicated by dashed white line). Thick black lines indicate sylvian fissure and central sulcus; thin lines indicate superior temporal sulcus, postcentral sulcus and intraparietal sulcus.                                                                                                                                                                                                     Patient 1 suffered from complex partial seizures that were characterized initially by an OBE or visual manifestations of varying degree. Pharmacoresistant epilepsy was diagnosed. Presurgical epilepsy evaluation suggested right occipito-parietal seizure onset partly overlapping and anterior to a right occipito-parietal dysembryoblastic neuroepithelial tumour (Fig., pink). OBE. Patient 1 felt as if she would be elevated vertically and effortlessly from her actual position associated with vertigo and fear. She saw herself (entire body as lying on the ground, facing up) and some unknown people (some were standing around her body, others were moving around) below. Initially, she felt as being 'above her real body', but that she was rapidly rising higher. She felt as if her elevated body was in the horizontal position, but did not see any part of it. The visual scene always took place outdoors and was described as 'a green meadow or hill'. The sensation of elevation continued and, quickly, she saw everything from so far away that she could not distinguish details anymore stating that she saw "something like a map of some country as you find in geography books". Here, the elevation stopped and she fell back "to earth". The patient indicated that OBEs occurred independent of her body position. Out-of-body experience and autoscopy of neurological origin. Olaf Blanke, Theodor Landis, Laurent Spinelli and Margitta Seeck                                                                                                                                                                                                      Note, the thing has gone to certain point purely spontaneously regardless of all subjective passivity, fright and indoctrination of patient 1. As we can see we need precise overlapping of TPJ, you may have those or other somatosensory ,,vibrations" by stimulating motor cortex with rotating supermagnet (by sufficient parameters); merely you need inhibition of TPJ, not vibrations as such!! Confusion about shortening of (patient 3) legs mentioned in Blankes article, http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/psych113/OutofBody.pdf        http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/docs/events/download.php?id=572             when the doctors asked her to move her limbs, she experienced other illusions: one arm seemed shorter than the other; her legs seemed to fly toward her face; if she closed her eyes, her upper body felt as if it were flying toward her legs. This experience is very similar to an experience called "micropsia", in which a person may experience things as being closer than they really are. The opposite experience, called 'macropsia' is the name for the perception that things are larger and farther away than they actually are. The same areas of the brain are also involved in this experience. Macropsia as preceding of OBEs (Todd Murphy). Moreover, nowhere was mentioned the patient was lying with nose down, not seeing any legs or arms with physical (open!) eyes, so we see micropsia applied on beginning "astral senses", typically in close aura zone. A fundamental problem is the extreme unpopularity of substance dualism what excludes a priori certain models, even as thought experiments. A certain point deserves particular attention...Let us imagine slow, methodical OBE induction (with open eyes for example). Range 2m (from body), we have well known "failure" to integrate... or "heavy distortions" as say not so few practical projectors. Somehow point where lie "eyes" reaches 4m, 5m...and suddenly any "failures" (all this disintegration within personal space (multisensory dysfunction) and disintegration between personal space (vestibular) and extrapersonal space (visual)) ceases to exist. Imagine- there, in incarnate state, the stream of consciousness includes brain, the outer milieu for stream of consciousness is brain, particularly a distributed phase of non-polar, hydrophobic solubility medium composed of discrete pockets in a group of proteins throughout the brain... and all seems to conform to reductionism or physicalism and there... in next minute you achieve OBE, discarnate state, and outer milieu for stream of consciousness is astral body, but there happens no seizures and you don't feel vibrations...you don't have micropsia, etc., you don't think the doorknob is part of body... This can be compared with OBEs of blind people. 1...2...3m they have such a thing as "astral touch", but suddenly at certain distance full correct sight emerges!!! What happens??? Simply at certain moment the field of mind and the field of consciousness leaves aura zone and metastable symbiosis of "subtle" bodies with physical body predominating switches off. There the passing of something like stream of consciousness, energy-informative stream, includes brain and all seems to conform to reductionism or physicalism and there... it includes not. Sometimes the "outer milieu" for stream of consciousness somehow simultaneously includes brain and "astral body" what leads to schizoid feeling of mind split.