Near death experience/OBE difference?

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ArmyOfOne1911

I talked to a guy the other day... My friends dad. I feel very uncomfortable around him. I saw a bunch of books on his shelf a few days ago alot of them seemed spiritual. This guy had a heart attack and actually died... (7 mins and was brought back to life) He said he sat in gods arms and talked to him. (I am pretty sure he grew up in some kind of religion.) So I decided to ask him about it. It was very interesting until I mentioned astral projection. He looked at me like I was nuts and said god doesn't want you doing that, and that you either go to heaven or hell. At that point I was like oh boy.... (Don't believe in the whole religion stuff.) So I just dropped it... He comes off as a very rude person too. This is another reason why I think from now on I will only discuss these things on here. Nobody understands, or has any interest in this stuff at all that I know except one guy and he projects alot.

Anyway, are OBE's and Near death experiences somewhat a similar phenomena? Maybe the reason he said he was sitting in gods arms was because that's what he believes in... therefor his guides, or whatnot wanted what was most comfortable for him... etc. I hope I don't offend anyone with the religion stuff by the way... I am very sorry if I did.

Ident

Our differences are what make each of us unique. He believes in his religion and you hold a different explanation of the nature of reality.

You might consider that you have an amazing resource at your disposal. You have someone who has had a lengthy NDE and is willing to discuss it with you. Maybe you could ascertain why he feels so negatively about AP. It seems that there could be much that he could impart to you once you can be accepting of the fact that he has beliefs different to yours. Maybe you could also impart much to him if he can come to accept your viewpoints.

Good luck.

Killa Rican

#2
I'm not sure if there is a "difference" or not. From what I have heard though, people who have experienced NDE's and remained closely associated with there body and the people around them, rather then being off "somewhere" distant, there have been no reports of "reality fluctuations" along the lines of what you would see in an OBE or Phasing experience. There seems to be a lot of clarity within the environment objectively.

But of course, this is only my observation from most accounts I've come across, I don't know if this really apply's under every NDE.
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice. ~Joseph Dunninger

catmeow

KR I agree totally and after many years of study I have found almost no cases of reality fluctuations in the huge number of NDEs I have read (where verification was possible). NDERs typically report the physical environment accurately (on those occasions where verification was possible). Also we have cases of blind-from-birth NDErs experiencing pin sharp visual like perceptions.

Why the difference between NDE and OBE? Well I don't know. In cases of spontaneous OBE realism is better than self induced OBEs. Read the case histories in Celia Green's study (Out of the Body Experiences) where she describes OBEs as being typically veridical although fantasy constructs do appear.

My own feelings on the matter are that during OBE and NDE, consciousness is actually encumbered by a working physical body. During NDE the physical body is completely dead, so all consciousness is transferred to the out of body state. During OBE the physical body in some way hampers out of body consciousness. This is getting very close to saying that consciousness is totally ejected from the physical during NDE, whereas during OBE it is only partially emitted. Partial consciousness means reality fluctuations.

But I don't know. IMO NDE is the real deal. We are more likely to obtain veridical testable results studying NDE rather than OBE.  This is where Sam Parnia's Aware study comes in. Results are due out later this year.

However I do suspect that Sam Parnia's study will come up with negative results. Why? Because of what I like to call the `observer effect`. In other words, our physical world is actively programmed to make real validation impossible. Whenever we put in place procedures to scientifically `observe` and prove psychic phenomena they will invariably either fail or leave room for doubt.

But in any event NDEs are the real deal.
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

Frequent Flier

#4
Quote from: catmeow on February 20, 2012, 13:30:05
My own feelings on the matter are that during OBE and NDE, consciousness is actually encumbered by a working physical body. During NDE the physical body is completely dead, so all consciousness is transferred to the out of body state. During OBE the physical body in some way hampers out of body consciousness. This is getting very close to saying that consciousness is totally ejected from the physical during NDE, whereas during OBE it is only partially emitted. Partial consciousness means reality fluctuations.


Interesting thought.

I'd like to hear -eventually- about the results of that study - Parnia - could there finally be something that will shut the skeptics?

Georgep

You remind me the day I told my best friend that I discovered the OOBE phenomenon. He looked at me and said "Ok, and do you believe that we (humans), can do this?" but I'm sure that in his mind he was thinking "What a jerk".

I still can't have an OOBE, and I don't know if I can ever achieve having one, but I'll still believe at its existence. At least, I can believe more at it than believing to a god. It's something that hundreds of people experienced.

Also, I made the mistake to talk to my mother about it. She also told me "And you believe in this?". Why is it so hard to believe at it, when they can believe to a god... And when we are not sure if... god exists.

Lionheart

 Georgep, I think it's time for you to ask yourself why you can't have an OBE and await your answer. You have something in your being that does not wish you to see this knowledge yet. If I were you, I would read everything I can find on it, watch every video I can see until you have acclimated your mind into accepting that the Astral should be part of your waking reality. People that have a hard time projecting have a block/wall interfering, you are the only one who can find out what this block/wall is and take it down.
Good Luck!  :-)

CFTraveler

QuoteWhy the difference between NDE and OBE? Well I don't know. In cases of spontaneous OBE realism is better than self induced OBEs.
If I were going to guess it would be that in an OBE the subconscious is 'on' and free to affect the perception, while in an NDE (if a true NDE, not all of them are) the brain activity has been suppressed to a degree that the subconscious doesn't have time to affect it until the person comes back to life, brain function starts again, and interpretation happens.
Having said that, it is interesting that many NDErs have different experiences, which follow a pattern, but are different nonetheless.
Everyone has their own worldview, and this seems to extend to the 'after' life, as the Tibetans seem to have figured out.

Georgep

Quote from: Lionheart on February 20, 2012, 18:35:37
Georgep, I think it's time for you to ask yourself why you can't have an OBE and await your answer. You have something in your being that does not wish you to see this knowledge yet. If I were you, I would read everything I can find on it, watch every video I can see until you have acclimated your mind into accepting that the Astral should be part of your waking reality. People that have a hard time projecting have a block/wall interfering, you are the only one who can find out what this block/wall is and take it down.
Good Luck!  :-)

Thanks for your advice Lionheart.  :-D

catmeow

Quote from: CFTraveler on February 21, 2012, 15:16:21
If I were going to guess it would be that in an OBE the subconscious is 'on' and free to affect the perception, while in an NDE (if a true NDE, not all of them are) the brain activity has been suppressed to a degree that the subconscious doesn't have time to affect it until the person comes back to life, brain function starts again, and interpretation happens.
So you see the subconscious as part of physical consciousness, and when we die we no longer have a subconscious?
Quote
Having said that, it is interesting that many NDErs have different experiences, which follow a pattern, but are different nonetheless.
Everyone has their own worldview, and this seems to extend to the 'after' life, as the Tibetans seem to have figured out.
Yes I agree. The RTZ part of NDEs seems to be very stable with no or few fantasy constructs. But once through the `light' the experience is highly subjective. The key features are highly similar, tunnel, light, unconditional love, meeting deceased loved ones, meeting spiritual being, life review, communication via telepathy, sense of all knowingness, utter reality, etc all of these elements are commonly described, but the actual details are generally different. Its a curious thing.
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

CFTraveler

Quote from: catmeow on February 21, 2012, 16:52:34
So you see the subconscious as part of physical consciousness, and when we die we no longer have a subconscious?
Yes, I consider it as a 'gatekeeper' for the superconscious, which isn't physical.  I think it's mediated by parts of the hindbrain and perhaps part of the frontal cortex.

QuoteYes I agree. The RTZ part of NDEs seems to be very stable with no or few fantasy constructs. But once through the `light' the experience is highly subjective. The key features are highly similar, tunnel, light, unconditional love, meeting deceased loved ones, meeting spiritual being, life review, communication via telepathy, sense of all knowingness, utter reality, etc all of these elements are commonly described, but the actual details are generally different. Its a curious thing.
That's where interpretation happens, or when we create what we experience, depending on how you look at it.

Killa Rican

#11
OP, look at it like this...Or more so how the person having the experience chooses to look at it. Personally I don't really believe in an ultimate "creator" god, but I do believe he believed he really interacted with what he thought to be 'God', or as you put it, some entity came to him and said "Hai I'm God! lolz."  :-D

The NDE's that most fascinate me are the ones that skeptics experience. When they interact with benevolent types of entity's, they don't really call them Gods, or angels, or guides or whatever. They simply just are what they are. Labels, Language and personal meaning is a hindrance towards comprehension as an outside observer.

While the REALLY hardcore skeptics still remain skeptical no matter how fascinating there NDE's appeared to be, some of them admit that there experience in "near death" has made them really question there survival of the consciousness, but they continue to hope that physical death will be there ultimate demise.
Quote
Yes I agree. The RTZ part of NDEs seems to be very stable with no or few fantasy constructs. But once through the `light' the experience is highly subjective. The key features are highly similar, tunnel, light, unconditional love, meeting deceased loved ones, meeting spiritual being, life review, communication via telepathy, sense of all knowingness, utter reality, etc all of these elements are commonly described, but the actual details are generally different. Its a curious thing.

It is kind of strange really, I've read a few stories online where certain people had more then one NDE during there lifetime, and just like some people have pleasant NDE's, others have not so pleasant. Whether this is part of there belief system or not who knows. But some people who have had more then one NDE in there life will have a pleasant NDE with the features you've mentioned above early in there life , while later in life, they end up having a terrifying not so comfortable NDE. Why one pleasant one and why one scary one later?  :-o

What is the purpose or "lessons" behind it?

So what of The Legitimacy of these stories? Up for grabs, anything is questionable on the internet lol.
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice. ~Joseph Dunninger

AstralBlogger

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