Not The End

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Selski

Hello everyone

Not the usual Selski here, but just remember that we are all complex beings and that death is not the end...  :smile:

:whistle: I've been taking a back seat for a while.  

I have been going through one of those "what's it all about" phases and thought that I'd be best staying in the shadows, rather than bring my 'negativity' or even 'scepticism' to the Forums.

It's not so much whether my experiences (or anyone elses experiences for that matter) are genuine, but rather whether there is any meaning to them.  This has more to do with the beliefs we 'cloak' our experiences with, in order to make more sense of them.

For instance, the afterlife.  A big, and yet 'accepted' belief in the "new-age", "OBE", "spiritual" arena.

Over the last 3 years or so (since my first acknowledged OBE), I have become what might be termed a 'spiritual' person.  And over the years, I have come to accept that death is not the end... (I think I would like that track playing at my funeral - if anyone wants to know who it is, it is by Bob Dylan).  

However, in the last few months, I have begun questioning everything that I began to hold dear.  I think this is partly to do with being brought up religious-based and getting to a point/age where I rejected it.

Derren Brown has had a lot to do with it too.  Seriously.

Personally, I think it is important and fruitful to go through these 'questioning' periods and not to worry 'what side' you will come out on, when you have gone through whatever it is you need to go through.

Blah blah blah.  That's a long introduction for what I'm wanting to say...  :kermit:

Anyway... on with the show.  :hippy1:

Firstly, let's say that I have the following types of experiences.

1.  'Classic' OBEs

These are the type that 'new' members long for.  Those where I am wide awake, but find that I am fully in control of what is going on, and can 'lower' my body (and mind) to the state where I am able to escape the physical.

2.  Lucid Dreams

These are more frequent recently, however since I started having doubts, they've dried up (which is interesting in itself.)

I am able to move from F2 to F3 (Frank's model) during these.

3.  Phasing

Unreliable, sporadic and VERY VERY hard work.

Bleugh, in the nicest possible way.   :spaceout:

OK, so here I am.  Unsure about every 'belief'.


----------ooooooooo00000000oooooooooooooo----------------

And yet, 4 OBEs in the last 6 days.  Albeit brief and the usual kind.

One where I opened the spare window with my second body.  Of course, when I 'woke up', I'd done no such thing.

Others too brief to mention, but nonetheless 'classic' and 'traditional' enough to comment upon.

But this morning's was surely to post here, just for the whole 'sensation' and 'breakdown'.

It was similar to the last 4 times.  Awoke.  Lay there for a while.  I am now able to 'push' down to a 'place' where separation is possible.  The 'pushing' is not straining, but a total relaxation which is (in a slight way) forceful.  Impossible to describe, but if you've been there, you'll know what I mean.

OK.  So I'm lay there, totally coherent, logical and physical.  But I am also able to lift my second arm out and wave it around, which is quite bizarre, even 3 years later.

I know that the alarm will go off shortly, but I am totally relaxed.  I decide to 'play' with it and lower the relaxation.  I pull my right arm out slowly and then sit up in bed.  I KNOW that it is my astral body, but it feels like my real body, so much so that I doubt my knowledge.  

Suddenly, I am in a different environment.  I don't feel as if my conscious has changed, but I am no longer in my bedroom, but am in the lounge of a house that I used to live in with my parents (still alive).

Although I am still very lucid, there must have been some "switch" between me mooching around in my bedroom (that I know now) to being in an old house where I used to live.  I don't understand the switch because I was there, OBE RTZ in my room, and then not.

I was upstairs in my old house, and I was very lucid.  The unusual thing is that my Mum was there (she is still alive).  The 'odd' thing was that I knew she was there, and it didn't seem odd that she was alive...  :wall:

I walked downstairs, and as I did so, my lucidity brightened.

But also, * and here is where the point of it all is *  :grin:

I went into our old lounge.  I, as in "me" was very aware of what was going on, even though I was also aware I might have been in a dream.

I WAS STILL HAVING AN OBE IN THE SENSE OF WHAT I WAS GOING THROUGH, REGARDLESS OF 'WHERE' I WAS AND 'WHO' I WAS WITH.

As I descended the stairs, my lucidity became stronger.  When I was in the lounge, I noticed a sound that was integral to my experience.  The sound was...is...hard to describe.  

Like radio frequency when it doesn't pick up anything.  Thick, all-encompassing.  Is it called white noise?

Whatever, it was absolutely 'key' to my maintaining the experience.  I was sure that losing that sound (either by focusing on my Mum's voice or being distracted) would have lost me the experience.  I state this because, for me, it was a vital part of what was going on.

Anyway, suffice to say (and not quite as scientific as Major Tom), I am exploring my experiences, breaking them down and hope to understand them to a point where I can help you, the reader and newbie, have them too.  :multiblob:

Do I get a prize for the longest post.   :sorry2:

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

MisterJingo

Quote from: SelskiHello everyone

Not the usual Selski here, but just remember that we are all complex beings and that death is not the end...  :smile:

:whistle: I've been taking a back seat for a while.  

I have been going through one of those "what's it all about" phases and thought that I'd be best staying in the shadows, rather than bring my 'negativity' or even 'scepticism' to the Forums.

It's not so much whether my experiences (or anyone elses experiences for that matter) are genuine, but rather whether there is any meaning to them.  This has more to do with the beliefs we 'cloak' our experiences with, in order to make more sense of them.

For instance, the afterlife.  A big, and yet 'accepted' belief in the "new-age", "OBE", "spiritual" arena.

Over the last 3 years or so (since my first acknowledged OBE), I have become what might be termed a 'spiritual' person.  And over the years, I have come to accept that death is not the end... (I think I would like that track playing at my funeral - if anyone wants to know who it is, it is by Bob Dylan).  

However, in the last few months, I have begun questioning everything that I began to hold dear.  I think this is partly to do with being brought up religious-based and getting to a point/age where I rejected it.

Derren Brown has had a lot to do with it too.  Seriously.

Personally, I think it is important and fruitful to go through these 'questioning' periods and not to worry 'what side' you will come out on, when you have gone through whatever it is you need to go through.

Blah blah blah.  That's a long introduction for what I'm wanting to say...  :kermit:

Anyway... on with the show.  :hippy1:

Firstly, let's say that I have the following types of experiences.

1.  'Classic' OBEs

These are the type that 'new' members long for.  Those where I am wide awake, but find that I am fully in control of what is going on, and can 'lower' my body (and mind) to the state where I am able to escape the physical.

2.  Lucid Dreams

These are more frequent recently, however since I started having doubts, they've dried up (which is interesting in itself.)

I am able to move from F2 to F3 (Frank's model) during these.

3.  Phasing

Unreliable, sporadic and VERY VERY hard work.

Bleugh, in the nicest possible way.   :spaceout:

OK, so here I am.  Unsure about every 'belief'.


----------ooooooooo00000000oooooooooooooo----------------

And yet, 4 OBEs in the last 6 days.  Albeit brief and the usual kind.

One where I opened the spare window with my second body.  Of course, when I 'woke up', I'd done no such thing.

Others too brief to mention, but nonetheless 'classic' and 'traditional' enough to comment upon.

But this morning's was surely to post here, just for the whole 'sensation' and 'breakdown'.

It was similar to the last 4 times.  Awoke.  Lay there for a while.  I am now able to 'push' down to a 'place' where separation is possible.  The 'pushing' is not straining, but a total relaxation which is (in a slight way) forceful.  Impossible to describe, but if you've been there, you'll know what I mean.

OK.  So I'm lay there, totally coherent, logical and physical.  But I am also able to lift my second arm out and wave it around, which is quite bizarre, even 3 years later.

I know that the alarm will go off shortly, but I am totally relaxed.  I decide to 'play' with it and lower the relaxation.  I pull my right arm out slowly and then sit up in bed.  I KNOW that it is my astral body, but it feels like my real body, so much so that I doubt my knowledge.  

Suddenly, I am in a different environment.  I don't feel as if my conscious has changed, but I am no longer in my bedroom, but am in the lounge of a house that I used to live in with my parents (still alive).

Although I am still very lucid, there must have been some "switch" between me mooching around in my bedroom (that I know now) to being in an old house where I used to live.  I don't understand the switch because I was there, OBE RTZ in my room, and then not.

I was upstairs in my old house, and I was very lucid.  The unusual thing is that my Mum was there (she is still alive).  The 'odd' thing was that I knew she was there, and it didn't seem odd that she was alive...  :wall:

I walked downstairs, and as I did so, my lucidity brightened.

But also, * and here is where the point of it all is *  :grin:

I went into our old lounge.  I, as in "me" was very aware of what was going on, even though I was also aware I might have been in a dream.

I WAS STILL HAVING AN OBE IN THE SENSE OF WHAT I WAS GOING THROUGH, REGARDLESS OF 'WHERE' I WAS AND 'WHO' I WAS WITH.

As I descended the stairs, my lucidity became stronger.  When I was in the lounge, I noticed a sound that was integral to my experience.  The sound was...is...hard to describe.  

Like radio frequency when it doesn't pick up anything.  Thick, all-encompassing.  Is it called white noise?

Whatever, it was absolutely 'key' to my maintaining the experience.  I was sure that losing that sound (either by focusing on my Mum's voice or being distracted) would have lost me the experience.  I state this because, for me, it was a vital part of what was going on.

Anyway, suffice to say (and not quite as scientific as Major Tom), I am exploring my experiences, breaking them down and hope to understand them to a point where I can help you, the reader and newbie, have them too.  :multiblob:

Do I get a prize for the longest post.   :sorry2:

Sarah

Hey Sarah,

Thanks for sharing :). As people can probably see, I'm going through a 'questioning' phase too - although the past week I've been questioning if I'm questioning too much :shock: I tend to bounce from belief to scepticism and back again (usually driven by whatever material I'm currently reading etc)
I guess all we can is experience these states and see where it takes us. Being too cynical or even holding too much belief in certain philosophies might limit us at the end, but perhaps with enough experience behind us we'll find the answers we're looking for.

Selski

Quote from: MisterJingowe'll find the answers we're looking for.

Yikes!!

I do believe that if we, as in Chris and (whoever), and Sarah individually, are looking for answers, then we will find them.

I also believe that the answers we are looking for are elusive, and always will be.  To ensure that we NEVER find what we are searching for...  :crybaby:

I'm having a deja vu typing this for some reason - and it is OK!!

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Selski

Another thought - if we want to find answers, we will.

If not, we won't.

:downtoilet:

By gum.

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

MisterJingo

Quote from: SelskiAnother thought - if we want to find answers, we will.

If not, we won't.

:downtoilet:

By gum.

Sarah

hehe ;)

Sort of like an idea I had that the belief is important - not the system i.e. if we have enough belief in any system, what that system is percieved to achieve (such as enlightenemnt etc) will be realised. The system is just a structure for the mind to work within to achieve a/the desired state/goal.

knightlight

Well I must say I was getting a touch worried and I missed you during your absence.  Welcome back.  
Quote
Another thought - if we want to find answers, we will.

If not, we won't.

That about sums it all up.  You go into the RTZ,F2, or beyond and go searching for something and chances are you will find it.  You dig through stacks of numbers and figures looking for something and BAM there it is.  Search your memory for some faint recollection of something and end up finding something similar or something to answer your question.  Was it the right question to begin with?  Its all rather wacky, thats why I dont care.  :lol:

I have recently gone through a phase myself.  One night I was sitting in my room after smoking a touch of the grass and watching some movie.  My mind slowly drifted to death.  It does that often but usually I get the same answer from my mind "So.... who cares, gotta happen..."  but at that exact moment it all hit me like a ton of bricks.  The inevitability of it all, the possibility it could happen any time, how it could happen,  mental images of being mutilated and burned and drowned and shot poured through my mind, thoughts of my friends and relatives being killed slammed me mentally and I sort of sat back wide eyed in my chair for a bit.  Then I started laughing so hard.  How silly.  Its not like I havent  gone beyond the limitations of physical existance before.  Multiple times.  Sure, the OBE state could be a by-product of mental activity specific to the brain that ends upon death, but thats almost better.  Instant blackness.  Like falling asleep forever and never knowing it.  Becoming food for the worms, bloating in the sun.  

Then again I could be crazy.  

My point is everything can be analyzed to death (hahaha im so punny) and you can go through phases, but in the end you will never truly know, and then you die.  Case closed.  

Now... thats what I am waiting for.  Sure, I enjoy life, I get every drop of satisfaction I can out of it, I have my OBE's and love every second of it but its all gotta go away, its all gonna come screeching to a halt some time in the future and then thats when it all truly begins.  Death is one of 2 experiences all living beings share, the other is birth.  Death is the meaning of life.

Anyhow... uhm... I dont think this has anything to do with your post... Its completely out there and I would delete it if it hadnt been so therapeutic and taken a bit of effort to write.  Ahhh hell.

I missed you Sarah, good to have you back.   :gasp:  :hug:
Profound Impatience makes the blind struggle in Stupidity.

knightlight

Well said Tom.  :peace:
Profound Impatience makes the blind struggle in Stupidity.

listener

I agree that when you have doubts, it stops happening so much.

When you embrace the belief in it, it suddenly happens more. That's weird in itself. And of course, it implies that the experience is a product of desire and suggestion as opposed to objective experience, which is also why the OP mentioned Derren Brown.

The mind plays tricks; personally, my doubts were a product of a particularly large acid dose as a teenager -it reminds you of the fragility of your perceptions. However, I was always aware of being high, and the vividness of any hallucinatory experiences weren't on the level of the ones I had when I was sober.

Maybe the mind is getting a shot of hallucinatory chemicals; but why then is it easier when you believe in it? It's a contradiction; if it's physical, it should make no difference at all.

If it's suggestion, then you're effectively creating your own internal reality, and that means that the entire experience is no more worthy of your attention than a dream.

So I think the aim should be to focus upon this as a discipline; to attempt to regulate the experience so it becomes repeatable. Once it's repeatable, you can start to map it, and only then can you meet others, and that's the thing that's missing here. Mutual validation, due to disciplined focus. I'm not saying I can do it myself, but it has to be the next step doesn't it? (and yes, I saw the Astral Pulse Island bit...)

Arn de Gothia

Knightlight, you really need to stop taking drugs =)

knightlight

HA!!!  :razz:   its a once a week thing, not like im pounding down LSD and shooting up heroin every day.  :lol:   A little grass never hurt anyone... who was sitting at a computer anyway!  :grin:
Profound Impatience makes the blind struggle in Stupidity.

Selski

Quote from: MisterJingoSort of like an idea I had that the belief is important - not the system i.e. if we have enough belief in any system, what that system is percieved to achieve (such as enlightenemnt etc) will be realised. The system is just a structure for the mind to work within to achieve a/the desired state/goal.

Yes, I know what you mean.  However, there are exceptions in life.  Lots of them too.  A topical and typical one is going through walls during an OBE.  I've been through many walls and know that I can, without doubt, do it.  However, occasionally I meet a block and as much as I try to gently persuade the wall to 'give', it won't budge.   :confused:

But in general terms, yes I agree with what you say.  

That's one of the things I found interesting - at present, my beliefs are all shelved.  However, despite that, I am still having classic OBEs - and regularly too.  I guess I haven't lost the belief that I am able to have them.  In actual fact, most times I go for a sleep, I expect to have one as I awake.  Which is probably quite a big factor.

On the other side of the coin, I've lost the ability to lucid dream.  I think this is because I've stopped thinking about my dreams, and don't write them up.  

Blah, it's all very confusing at times.  :smile:

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Selski

Quote from: knightlightMy point is everything can be analyzed to death (hahaha im so punny) and you can go through phases, but in the end you will never truly know, and then you die.  Case closed.  

I think this is where I'm heading... the 'never truly know' brigade.  And I'll be happy with that.

:grin:

Thanks for the welcome back -  :gasp:

That gasp emoticon is seriously weird.   :giggle:

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Selski

Quote from: runlolaI just read somewhere that when you OBE into your room you are not
*really* in your room, you are actually in a mind-copy of
your room..so would that make RTZ unreal?..still thinking.  :roll:

Hi Lola

My answer is... I don't know.  I know that the RTZ for me tends to be 'wrong' in places, for instance the door is on the wrong wall.  And sometimes I am aware of the discrepancy at the time, but sometimes I don't realise until I fully wake up.

I can go for the mind-copy theory, but it doesn't explain how I was able to see the playing card that time.  Unless that was remote viewing housed in a traditional OBE.   :confused:

Funny old world, isn't it.  :smile:

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

ubiquitous

Hi Selski, reading your opening post on this topic you mentioned derren brown being of importance in a recent shift in your belief system.

Was that with regards to his trip around the u.s where he showed religion for the billion dollar industry it is? and the fact he got offered to work for so many of these groups because he was more convincing than any of the best preacher's medium's ..ect but had that honesty to unveil that he had decieved them in order to show how peoples belief is tapped into in order to make money!!!

For a lot of people it's hard to take and to get people to see due to decades believing in a certain system but through his powerful technique he opens up there angle of acceptance.

Or was it another show and how did it effect your outlook/belief??
As for your dream sound's cool, good to read!!!!!

CFTraveler

Quote from: Selski
Quote from: runlolaI just read somewhere that when you OBE into your room you are not
*really* in your room, you are actually in a mind-copy of
your room..so would that make RTZ unreal?..still thinking.  :roll:
Hi Lola
My answer is... I don't know.  I know that the RTZ for me tends to be 'wrong' in places, for instance the door is on the wrong wall.  And sometimes I am aware of the discrepancy at the time, but sometimes I don't realise until I fully wake up.
I can go for the mind-copy theory, but it doesn't explain how I was able to see the playing card that time.  Unless that was remote viewing housed in a traditional OBE.   :confused:
Funny old world, isn't it.  :smile:
Sarah
Hi guys.
If you think of an RTZ OBE as your physical consciousness being able to perceive an energetic equivalent of the material world, then it's like saying that it's not material in the sense of density or even frequency (I detest the use of that term, BTW) but as real as it gets in a subjective experience.
Huh?  In other words; everything in the real (ie. physical) world is made of energy- suppose that your energetic self is always navigating about your body, but your consciousness  generally only processes what your body perceives as matter, but in an OB your consciousness tunes in to your energetic self, and takes in what the perception is- from the energy body about the energy world- So the perception you have as you 'return' your consciousness to your brain is then translated to what you look at every day with differences (I once saw a window where a painting was in an interior wall, for example)- and the differences or distortions are created by your brain who might be having trouble interpreting the information it got, so the subconscious takes over and shows you in symbolic terms what you saw.  In my case the window was right next to a spot where I used to have lots of OBs.  So my subconscious may have interpreted what my energy 'self' knew was some sort of a 'gateway', and showed me a window.
Just an idea.
My brain is starting to lose it and my hands are almost hurting from this ->bleh!  I hope it made some sense. :cookiemonster:

Tombo

Quote from: Selski

2.  Lucid Dreams

I am able to move from F2 to F3 (Frank's model) during these.

Sarah

Hello Sarah

Would you mind explaining a little how you do that :smile:  Is there any specific techique you use?

Also how do you experience the difference between the two?

Thx, Tom
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

Selski

Hi Major Tom

Thank you for your response.  You bring up some interesting and thought-provoking points (as usual!)

Quote from: Major TomI remember some similar instances where I was starting to OBE, and was just about to go through the exit phase, and suddenly the whole environment changed to me being in an claustrophobic basement.

In tha basement massive amounts of water were puring down on me, as I tried to move upwards through a maze of wooden beams hoping to reach the surface.

Not surprisingly, that whole experience pretty much sounds like the typical OBE exit with some fear and difficulty in metaphorical language.

I find with my classic OBEs, I am able to retain lucidity pretty much excusively, even if the OBE drifts into a dreamlike environment.  It's my lucid dreams that I can't seem to "hold".

Your analysis of your experience sounds spot on.  This morning, I had an OBE where I looked at myself sleeping (I looked more like my best friend than me).  My sleeping body mouthed the words 'goodbye' and my second body telepathically said that I wouldn't be long.  Then I looked out of my bedroom window and saw all sorts of nonsense going on.   At one point I saw three people wearing bright red soldiers uniform, all marching/dancing along the path.  I decided to follow them and as I got outside, the whole environment was no longer 'my' outside, but some town.  It appeared to be carnival day and people were milling about everywhere.  I followed the soldiers for a while before I lost it.

It seems that my changes (from RTZ to dream?) go into silly-mode.  Possibly because of my current attitude?  I don't know but that would make sense to me at least.

Quote from: Major TomThere are so many layers to consciousness it's no longer funny, but absolutely totally intriguing.

Agreed.  I'm finding more and more these days that the period just before I separate, and the initial separation, is my most enjoyable part.  It's where I seem to be in control the most.  This morning's was lovely because I realised that my second body was falling out of the physical (in slow motion).  I managed to gain some control and rolled right round so I was under the bed, where I pulled on the framework to get myself to the end of the bed.  Not very exciting to read about I suppose - I didn't zoom off to outer space or meet strange aliens, but my experience is much more akin to how I perceive an OBE.  I don't seem to be able to travel very far.

Quote from: Major TomThere are no easy answers to the great complexity of these experiences, and as I have stated elsehwere, the 4 focus model is inadequete to capture it, and I find myself returning to the original focus levels of Monroe as a working model.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the Monroe model encapsulates fully the classic OBE.  Frank didn't seem to have much experience of RTZ OBEs and I think therefore they weren't that 'important' to him.  I never agreed with them being in F1 of his model.  These OBEs are incredibly complex and 'F1' just doesn't give them justice or understanding in my opinion.

Even so, I find Monroe's a tad too complicated for me as most of the process I don't experience (the vibes, the 3D blackness) so I'm never really sure where I am.  I guess I possibly go straight from F10/F12 to F21(?) and momentarily black out for the process in-between.  Which is a shame as I would love to experience the 3D blackness.  :smile:

Quote from: Major TomI nowaydays sometimes, but not always, find myself phasing naturally after I have exited the classical way

My above experience is a case in point.  It's difficult to know whether when I looked out of the window, I phased into an 'astral' environment, or whether I'd created a dream scenario and followed into it.  Because my lucidity was high at all times, it's hard to distinguish.  I guess at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.

Anyways, I've rambled.  However, it's good to know that I'm still having these weird and wonderful experiences - I'd be lost without them!  :lol:

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Selski

Hi listener

You bring up some very good points too, and food for thought.  :smile:

One thing though:-

Quote from: listenerIf it's suggestion, then you're effectively creating your own internal reality, and that means that the entire experience is no more worthy of your attention than a dream.

I would like to turn this sentence on its head and say:

Quote from: SelskiIf it's suggestion, then you're effectively creating your own internal reality, and that means that the entire experience is no less worthy of your attention than a dream.

Not that I disagree with your statement, but I'm one for looking at things from all angles (which is probably how I got into this confusion in the first place!!)  :grin:

Thanks for your response.

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

MisterJingo

Quote
Yes, I know what you mean. However, there are exceptions in life. Lots of them too. A topical and typical one is going through walls during an OBE. I've been through many walls and know that I can, without doubt, do it. However, occasionally I meet a block and as much as I try to gently persuade the wall to 'give', it won't budge.  

I think this could be to do with ingrained belief gained through day-to-day existence in 'baseline' reality. We have spent an immensely greater period of time in a place where we cannot move through walls, that sometimes, in a state where belief affects everything, we could block ourselves due to these 'baseline' beliefs.

Quote
That's one of the things I found interesting - at present, my beliefs are all shelved. However, despite that, I am still having classic OBEs - and regularly too. I guess I haven't lost the belief that I am able to have them. In actual fact, most times I go for a sleep, I expect to have one as I awake. Which is probably quite a big factor.

Yes, it seems more than belief is needed in these circumstances – more like a 'knowing'. As you gain more experience with this state, and gain confidence in being able to achieve it, an innate 'knowing ' can occur which make it easier to achieve. Or, we reinforce the newly gained neural pathways which enable OBE states – so more obe states == the more we can achieve it ;).

Something came to me while I was waiting for a train yesterday. People talking about reality being a group belief system. The RTZ is right on top of 'reality' (or more an immediate reflection in the layer of consciousness closest to baseline). If the group consciousness is strong enough to override individual desires i.e. so no one in physical reality walks through walls, or flies. Then surely, the RTZ would be pretty much bound by these rules too – due to its close proximity. But even from the first OBE we can float and fly – overriding natural instincts built into us. This seems quite inconsistent. More so, I've yet to enter another astral locale (which is what our physical reality would be if it was a group generated belief locale) where I am not able to override 'natural' laws. Such as like we cannot fly or do amazing feats here,  I am able to go to other places which seem as consistent as our reality and bend the rules there. I interact with objects and people (much differently to our RTZ – which is more like I'm speaking to peoples minds as they look blankly at me).
I guess this could suggest that a lot of our 'obe models' might be far off from what is actually happening.

Selski

Hi ubiquitous

Quote from: ubiquitousWas that with regards to his trip around the u.s where he showed religion for the billion dollar industry it is? and the fact he got offered to work for so many of these groups because he was more convincing than any of the best preacher's medium's ..ect but had that honesty to unveil that he had decieved them in order to show how peoples belief is tapped into in order to make money!!!

Yes, but also every time I watch his shows.  His latest programme (last Sunday evening in the UK) had him with a sleep volunteer.  Through suggestion, Derren made the volunteer dream about certain things that  he'd already written down on a board above the headboard (which the volunteer couldn't see).  Sure enough, the volunteer dreams about them.  

In addition, I went to see him live last year.  The second half of the show involved him re-enacting a typical 'medium' experience involving a makeshift oujii board etc.  It was frighteningly believable.

I left the show with more questions than answers.  My jaw was on the floor most of the time!  It was as if my mind was not my own and he could manipulate it any way he chose.  And this was with an audience of hundreds of people, not one-on-one, face-to-face.  In fact, for his first 'trick' he hadn't even turned up on stage yet, and he managed to get the majority (if not all) of the audience to choose a particular coloured shape from a choice of three.  :lol:

It makes me wonder about our brain/mind.  We seem to be so easily tricked.  I guess it's the brain that is 'conned' along with our physical senses.

Did you see The Heist late last year?  Pretty phenomenal stuff.  And the programme where he "converted" a room full of people - seemingly just like that.  I mean, it's fascinating stuff, and really makes me question beliefs in general.

I'm going to see him again next month, so that will do wonders for my "spiritual" self...  :peace:

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Selski

Hi CFTraveler

Quote from: CFTravelerIf you think of an RTZ OBE as your physical consciousness being able to perceive an energetic equivalent of the material world, then it's like saying that it's not material in the sense of density or even frequency (I detest the use of that term, BTW) but as real as it gets in a subjective experience.

It's a theory.  

An energy counterpart of the physical.  But I find I experience too many 'solid' differences.  What I mean by this is things like doors in the wrong place.  A door is a door is a door.  Perhaps it's an entrance to the "astral" world and my brain doesn't understand that, so makes it into a door - but where is the energy counterpart of the physical door?  Or does my brain also accept that this particular room I am in only has one door (i.e. the physical one) and therefore "deletes" the solid wooden door?

I can also be extremely lucid and have been an inch away from my bedroom door, but I notice that the door has got numbers on it, as if it were a front door.  I know this is wrong.  Again, putting your theory to practice, I am seeing something "astral" that my brain doesn't understand, so it creates a brass "82" or whatever in its place.  That's all very well and good, but it doesn't help me to understand these experiences.  :lol:

It would explain the playing card quite well, as when I saw the card, I didn't see it like you would look at in physically.  I saw a representation of it.  Luckily, what I did see was enough to convince me of the colour and actual card (a Jack).  However, I couldn't determine the suit, but I did see a blue 'A' in the middle of the card.  Once I'd come round, I figured that the blue 'A' looked more like a spade than a club (the only two suits it could have been).  Sure enough, it was the Jack of Spades.

Interesting theory.

Sarah
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Selski

Quote from: TomboWould you mind explaining a little how you do that :smile:  Is there any specific techique you use?

Also how do you experience the difference between the two?

Hi Tom

It's pretty much explained here... (see my second post)

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21788

(saves me typing it all over again!)   :grin:

Any questions, feel free to ask!

Sarah

P.S.  My lucid dreams are coming back!  Hurrah!  I had two last night as I fell asleep.  The first I was looking at my hands and I kept seeing only 3 or 4 fingers.  Weird.  That made me realise I was dreaming - got too excited and woke up.

Then fell asleep again and realised I was dreaming.  I was by a swimming pool that had loads of people in it.  I wanted to go to the other side and couldn't be bothered walking around the pool, so I walked across the water!!!  Ha ha, what a show off!   :lol:
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

ubiquitous

Hi Sarah,
           A lot derren brown's stuff is the same it's just the idea's he use's to incorporate his skill's is what is different.I can see this and in the main his novelty factor has warn off me, don't become to obsessed!!! dangerous obsessive's are more easily seduced!!
The heist was funny, and as for the dream's you could hearhim make the verbal suggestion whilst speaking to the volunteer blindfolded "sheepish" ect.. the board above the bed is just "pure effect" for the more easily persuaded to think "oh, he feelsthe wordsabove while he's sleeping".
Would like to see him live though!

4ur2b3

MisterJingo

Quote from: ubiquitousHi Sarah,
           A lot derren brown's stuff is the same it's just the idea's he use's to incorporate his skill's is what is different.I can see this and in the main his novelty factor has warn off me, don't become to obsessed!!! dangerous obsessive's are more easily seduced!!

4ur2b3

I think with Derren, regardless of his techniques or if his novelty has worn off, he can easily do things which many on this board take to be paranormal or a sign of greater realities - where its true basis lies in manipulation or selfmanipulation of belief and nothing more.
Such as if Derren had wanted to invent himself as a Monroe, or Bruce, or Frank he could easily produce the effects which have gained such a following in others.
So if its possible to induce amazing, seemingly paranormal feats (including possessing others, telekenesis, mind reading, implanting detailed suggestions which radically alter anothers behaviour, inducing profound shifts in consiousnes with a single word) in a natural way - which actually has no basis in the paranormal or psychic powers - how do we know what we are doing is more than this? The only thing which seperates paranormal gurus and Derren, is that Derren fully admits hes just manipulating natural behaviours, wheras a 'psychic' believes they are doign more.

Quote
The heist was funny, and as for the dream's you could hearhim make the verbal suggestion whilst speaking to the volunteer blindfolded "sheepish" ect.. the board above the bed is just "pure effect" for the more easily persuaded to think "oh, he feelsthe wordsabove while he's sleeping".
Would like to see him live though!

The board was for pure effect. It wasn't to make people think that - it was to show the audience just how devistatingly successful Deren was in his suggestion implantation. More interesting was what happened after where they recreated the dream scenario, woke the guy up, let him wander around it then go back to sleep. He just assumed that was part of the dream and had no idea how his socks got to be wet and muddy.
Whats the difference between somone reading a forum then having an obe (self implanted suggestion) and Derren implanting suggestions into others to create such effects?
I have seen people take much smaller proofs that the obe is a valid state than Derren can produce at a whim.

People will argue forever that their experiences are 'valid' due purely to belief, yet people like Derren show just how easily it is to effect such belief even in remote ways.

upstream

QuoteYou know those OBEs where you're stumbling around in total blackness, and not being able to see? That's not normal blackness. It's the 3D blackness.

Of course, you have a second body in this 3D blackness, but it is the same 3D blackness operating under the assumption that you are in your room. You could say, that once you start to see...you phase from the 3D blackness int the RTZ while maintaining a sense of second body.  

Exactly! The main difference is that due to the induction method you have used your interest is rather somatic than visually oriented. You can, in fact, phase out from this postseparation darkness or minimal perceptual environment at any place you concentrate on.

I actually realized this while trying to keep sensory coherence within the walls of my bedroom. I saw weird things in the deep that made me think about the RTZ bedroom as being nothing more than a landing unit of my waking self constructed by mere expectations.

Although its purpose is to protect ourselves from the real astral, a raw and uninterpreted form of consciousness which the 3D darkness actually is, it could be as close representation of the objective world as possible by feeding on the raw sensory feedback of a condensed electromagnetic field in F12. Your ego are still, however, within your astral body, as always, even during waking, watching the most appropriate pictures chosen from your memory.