OBE or AP as opposed to Lucid Dream?

[Bhikku]

I have not been able to produce an AP or Lucid Dream yet so I am somewhat confused/concerned on the matter. If in fact a AP is the same as a LD, then AP is not real- correct? I use the term "real" in the sense that we know to be real, here on this website. You would not actually be in the "astral dimention" but just inside of your own psyche. Could it all just be the greatest hoax of our own minds? If this is true, I don't understand how one would obtain information they previously did not know. When the time comes for me to have a LD/AP how would I know the difference?

"Look within, thou art the Budda"

[Adrian]

Greetings Bhikku!

quote:
I have not been able to produce an AP or Lucid Dream yet so I am somewhat confused/concerned on the matter. If in fact a AP is the same as a LD, then AP is not real- correct? I use the term "real" in the sense that we know to be real, here on this website. You would not actually be in the "astral dimention" but just inside of your own psyche. Could it all just be the greatest hoax of our own minds? If this is true, I don't understand how one would obtain information they previously did not know. When the time comes for me to have a LD/AP how would I know the difference?

"Look within, thou art the Budda"

I don't think your assumption is correct in absolute terms.

The Astral realms and many entities of all types and levels that exist there are very real indeed. The Kabbalah Tree of Live is based upon the various Astral Realms.

Also - I don't think there is much doubt about the fact that when you project into the "real time zone", and can view real life events and verify them later, that is also real.

The grey area is Lucid Dreaming, and possibly low level Astral projection, and which is what I am trying to get to.

Actually, Lucid Dreaming, in fact any dreaming, could be interaction with the lower Astral. The lower Astral also almost certainly corresponds to the collective human psyche. These factors are highly relevant in influential level Magic, and in particular where people are trying to influence others through the level of the collective human psyche which everyone shares.  That is why it is possible when projecting, to enter into the dreams of other people, and when encountering people that are the object of someones dream, they might not seem to make much sense. Below that, is the individual human psyche, which is probably your own sort of private area of the lower Astral that corresponds to a private version of the collective human psyche. In a Lucid Dream, in this case you would of course be interacting with yourself, in your own created world.

My theory is that when Astral projecting, it is of course possible to project to the higher levels of the Astral, higher than the collective human psyche - the lower aspect of which is where Astral Wildlife is found, and with higher level entities (and fewer of them) the higher you go. The question is, how do you differentiate these levels?

I suspect another important difference between AP and LD is that in the case of the latter, you are *stuck* at the LD/lower Astral/individual/collective level, and have to work within the parameters of that level. In the case of AP, you are *much* more conscious of your own actions, and accordingly have *much* more control and understanding - this provides you with the ability to make conscious, controlled  decisions to vibrate to higher levels of the Astral, beyond the collective, and to interact with that environment and the higher level entities that autonomously exist there.

These are the questions. I believe that Lucid Dreaming never really escapes the individual/collective psyche level of the Astral. OBE/AP on the other hand can reach that, but, I think, with the ability to travel, or vibrate to higher Astral levels.

Anyway - that is my theory - which is probably completely wrong

I would appreciate all views on this - it is a very interesting subject

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Barbara]

Greetings!

In the past many times I have thought,  "Is dream the reality or reality the dream!" I have come to the conclusion that all of us when we are asleep each night our consciousness roams at random, and what we have experienced in our daily lives is mixed up in a series of scenarios and images. Dream sequences are played out and we have absolutely no control over them. Unless the dream has been striking in some way such as something extremely pleasant or a nightmare. Upon wakening and coming from the dream like state the more awake we become the more the dream fades into the distance, and once completely awake it is mostly forgotten in a matter of moments.

Lucid Dreaming is where we have some control and I believe that this state is situated on the Base/Astral Collective Consciousness Level and I also feel that you can only move within this vibration. Upon wakening from this state I have found it is easier to remember because the dream is usually more prolific.

In Astral Projection, I believe that anything is possible, we can go anywhere within the realms that we each exclusively resonate at. The more advanced that one is, and becomes, the higher the vibration and the further away from the Collective Consciousness on to the next stage of our own particular journey.

All good wishes,
Barbara

[Adrian]

Greetings Barbara!

quote:
Greetings!

In the past many times I have thought,  "Is dream the reality or reality the dream!" I have come to the conclusion that all of us when we are asleep each night our consciousness roams at random, and what we have experienced in our daily lives is mixed up in a series of scenarios and images. Dream sequences are played out and we have absolutely no control over them. Unless the dream has been striking in some way such as something extremely pleasant or a nightmare. Upon wakening and coming from the dream like state the more awake we become the more the dream fades into the distance, and once completely awake it is mostly forgotten in a matter of moments.

Lucid Dreaming is where we have some control and I believe that this state is situated on the Base/Astral Collective Consciousness Level and I also feel that you can only move within this vibration. Upon wakening from this state I have found it is easier to remember because the dream is usually more prolific.

In Astral Projection, I believe that anything is possible, we can go anywhere within the realms that we each exclusively resonate at. The more advanced that one is, and becomes, the higher the vibration and the further away from the Collective Consciousness on to the next stage of our own particular journey.

All good wishes,
Barbara

Yes - I must say - as I currently understand things, I think your summary above is a very good one. It is also possible that substances such as alcohol, drugs etc., can temporarily effect Astral vibrational level. Don't drink and fly

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Arena]

Adrian and Everyone else,

I have been grappling with this Lucid Dream/Astral Projection question.  When I randomly and accidentally had lucid dreams or OBE's they seemed liked two distinct phenomenon.  Now, I find myself able to consciously enter into a lucid state where I am able to journey at will.  All types of experience occur in a free association kind of way.  I am able to intend a location, such as the Akashic records, and then have a meaningful experience/vision "there".  Sometimes, I start to "dream" and find myself at a familiar location, and then explore what is happening there.  I have lots of imagery/sensory experiences that are impossible to put into words and describe.  Also, fragments of observing a familiar object from an interesting angle, that seem a distinctly OBE-like experience.  

Anyhow, so far in my controlled and conscious journeys, it seems like I, (meaning both my conscious and subconscious self), am creating it all.  Much to my surprise and disappointment, I don't feel like I'm journeying out of my own psyche. (I'm not disappointed in the experiences themselves, just in the not being able to feel like I'm outside my own psyche.) I have been trying to encounter other entities.  I tried to contact my dead grandmother. Although I had a very comforting and nurturing experience, I still felt like I was contacting a part of myself.

Also, I find that the concepts of time and space dissolve when having these kinds of experiences.  Everything is simultaneously here and happening all at once.  The idea of going anywhere becomes absurd, as it's more like shifting realities/dimensions/focus of what is all already right here. I'm also able to maintain some sense of contact with what is happening around my body, sounds etc... It feels like waking and dreaming have switched places or inverted.  Real life is present, but is more dreamlike and less real, then whatever I'm experiencing.

Also the vibrations don't seem to directly impact the state.  Sometimes I have them and sometimes not. The vibrations seem to be one of multiple kinds of energetic sensations. Perhaps they intensify the experience of traveling through astral tunnels, but the connection is not fully clear to me yet.

I do hear a most unusual sound, like a wheezing.  I read something someone else wrote about that kind of sound.  Equating it with a sound Carlos Casteneda wrote about, when the double leaves the body.

I am interested in how others determine that an astral projection is more real than a dream or vision, and that they are in fact outside of their own psyche.

Thanks for raising the topic.

Arena

[Klaus S]

Before I started working with the NEW my lucid dreams were possible to change by force of my will. But now, the environment in my lucid dreams have become quite impossible to change by will. The situations and the environment seem more "rock-hard" or "real" and more constant than before. I did not know what to think about that before but when reading this topic, I wondered if my lucid dreams emanates a bit less from my private psyche and a bit more from something more collective or "objective"

Klaus S



Edited by - Klaus S on 08 April 2002  12:07:31

[Kodemaster]

I've actually had an experience where I had the conscious exit from the body, the spinning/vortex sensation, and then a lucid dream.

At the time I was having the experience, I believed I was having an OBE. When I woke up and realised that it was a dream, and not a real-time projection, I assumed it was a lucid dream.

After reading the section of Mr. Bruce's treatise which states that a trip to the Astral Plane without a conscious exit is a LD and not an AP, I wondered, could the opposite be true, as well?

Has anybody ever met up with somebody in the Astral Plane, and then discussed it with that person afterward? I read a story on another discussion board where somebody shared a dream with a friend, and then were able to fill in each other with details the next day! I therefore believe that it is definitely possible to meet actual entities in LD's, AP's and dreams.

Best regards,

Jeni

[reclining orb]

With apologies to RB, I think the problem lies in part with his definitions-- that an OBE/AP has conscious separation/exit sensations and a lucid dream is any other experience. An astral projection should be defined as an experience in the astral regions, and a lucid dream as an experience in the lower areas, such as the collective-unconscious/ training area/ personal unconscious etc.  How you get there is less important than where you go; I certainly expect to feel that way when I die, so why not now?

In that schema, I know that a lucid dream can become an astral projection (that you CAN leave the lower regions from a dream state). I haven't done it often, though.  It is necessary to get the dreaming to end first.  In dreams, as soon as you think or feel, those energies get processed and fed back to you in some form as a training mechanism.  While that is still going on you are stuck in the lower areas.  One way to get around this phenomenon is to wait until you are almost awake (after dream-class ends) and then relax deeply and intend to have an astral experience.  This can happen without technically waking-up.  A related method is to wait a dream to death (get the teacher to end class early on account of your boredom) I'm guessing that you could also ask for your dream-session to stop. That seems more responsible than the passive-aggressive waiting approach.  I 'm excited to try it!  

As for the second question (identifying entities as part of your psyche or external in nature) Inguma and I had a good back and forth on this topic under the thread, "A voice I heard in bed" (general metaphysics).  Inguma's term of "mental spark" is a rather nice concept for help in evaluating the origin of a communication.    

[Read that first and then come back]  Dreams aren't very big.  How to explain? Well, on an old video-game console, for example, only a small area of the game world is loaded and ready for interaction at any given moment.  When you move towards the edge of the active area, the game has to load the next area and get it ready for interaction.  Dreams are like that.  So at any given time the boundaries of the dream "stage" are fairly close at hand.  If you learn to feel those boundaries it makes flying really easy-- just push off the boundary with your mind.  For external communications, I can often feel the mental spark pushing-in from "outside" the dream boundary. I wonder if some mystics do the same thing in waking life.  Life's boundaries, where are they?  

Let me know what ideas this, ahem, sparks.  

[Adrian]

Greetings all!

There are as many theories on the differences between Astral Projection and Lucid Dreaming as there are methods to achieve them

I believe Robert's definition is that if the OBE is fully awake, then it is an OBE/AP. If you blackout, even momentarily, it becomes a Lucid Dream. The implication here I guess is that there is no difference between the two except for point of entry into the state.

Many people believe that Lucid Dreaming is no more than a voyage of your own psyche, and everyone you meet, including those you talk to, are yourself. Others say that a Lucid Dream is the same as Astral Projection and all entities are therefore real, and outside of your own psyche. On the other hand, a low level AP could be exactly the same as an LD.

It would be most interesting to hear views on this, both from a theoretical and actual experience point of view - and especially how one view entities encountered vis a vis being real, seperate entities, rather than multiple aspects of your own psyche.

Best regards to all,

Adrian.