Out-of-body experience clues may hide in mind

[David Warner]

Ap Friends,

Noticed this CNN post and decided to add this start a new thread.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/
http://staff.washington.edu/~chudler/obe.html

Still this doesn't prove if NDE or OBE isn't valid. What about the validations of patients that can report precise conditions of their environment. What about your validations - how far do they measure up to this.

Tvos

[jalef]

i also read that articla in a slightly chsnged form. they say that they cant say if this is the only source for obes happening. also i dont think that i trained this specific part of my brain to malfunction by doing energy work and meditation in only 4 weeks.

"Lots of people try to explain something away which is for many people, an amazing experience that has transformed their lives." said Blanke.

i completely agree.

[David Warner]

jalef,

That is a excellent point you made. I did read the article in various other news web sites. It does raise some excellent questions about the oobe and what triggers it. But what you mentioned about the failing part doesn't make sense or relate to someone who is healthy.

Tvos

[CFTraveler]

Ap Friends,

Noticed this CNN post and decided to add this start a new thread.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/
http://staff.washington.edu/~chudler/obe.html
Still this doesn't prove if NDE or OBE isn't valid. What about the validations of patients that can report precise conditions of their environment. What about your validations - how far do they measure up to this.
Tvos

Since I've been having OB experiences since I was a child, and I had read that people with epilepsy had them, about 10 years ago I was in a car accident, and went to the hospital.  Since I knew about this connection and was curious about it, I saw a neurologist (since he was going to see me anyway) to have myself tested for epileptic seizures, and had what is known as a 'sleep study'.  They put you to sleep (although I remembered everything, they said I was asleep), with electrodes on your head and strobe a light at your closed eyes at different frequencies, and map your eeg impulses, to see if there is any stray reaction (seizure).  I passed with flying colors, no epilepsy or other neurological abnormality (other than my charming personality, that is).  So I know that it may explain(away) some cases, but certainly not all of them.

[David Warner]

CFTraveler,

Did you explain to the doctors you had obe's and was able to validate your experiences?

Glade to see you are doing good w/o the seizures!

Tvos

[CFTraveler]

Hell no!  I said that after the accident I was  losing time, being somewhere and then suddenly waking up on the floor somewhere else without knowing how I got there.  I knew this is a symptom of petit mal, so I asked to be tested for epilepsy.

[David Warner]

CFTraveler,

During the sleep study, how long did it last? Did you try to induce a oobe to see what would show ont he charts?

I hope you are okay now!

Tvos

ps. I bet ya if you told them that you experienced OOBE's they would have commited you..:)

[Donal]

As if the brain is completely understood yet, these findings can't get rid of stuff like psychics spotting OBE'ers far away, and etc.

[CFTraveler]

CFTraveler,

During the sleep study, how long did it last? Did you try to induce a oobe to see what would show ont he charts?

I hope you are okay now!

Tvos

ps. I bet ya if you told them that you experienced OOBE's they would have commited you..

It lasted maybe 3-4 hours.  They gave me this nasty stuff to drink, I lay there with my eyes closed, and in my experience I stayed awake the whole time.  That was weird, because they said I was asleep (and had the eeg to prove it).  But I remembered everything.  At the time I didn't even know you could induce an OB- I was a spontaneous projector all my life until just like 2-3 years ago, and only deliberately succesful this year, where the floodgates have opened, so to speak.   I was just curious about the epilepsy angle.

tvos:  Thanks for your concern, I'm ok now- my back never fully recovered, but going over 47 and gaining weight may have something to do with it!

[David Warner]

CFTraveler,

I've had those times when trying to sleep, I lay restless, my eyes closed with intent on sleeping, then the alarm clock goes off and its time to get up for work and felt that only minutes went by... that is THE BEST time for projecting!!

Maybe you can research the lab and see if your able to go back again to try and project. Sign up for some experiments!!

Tvos

[catmeow]

Speaking as a scientist and engineer I am very familiar with the scientific process and can say categorically that this single report by Dr Olaf Blanke, as well intentioned as I believe it is, has no actual scientific value whatsoever.

Dr Blanke obtained this result in only one epileptic patient.  He did not achieve this result in any of his other patients.  We also only have his word that it actually happened as reported, ie that (1) it happened at all and (2) it only happened whilst stimulating the angular gyrus.  Additionally, this result has never been replicated by anyone, ever, anywhere in the world.  For this result to have value it would need:

- To be obtained in a large statistically significant sample of normal people
- To be conducted as a double-blind placebo-controlled experiment (somehow)
- To be repeatable by other scientists in other labs

Now I'm sure that Dr Blanke is an honest and well intentioned man.  He's probably a very good scientist, and I'm sure that something interesting happened with this one particular patient in his lab.  But at the moment this result is both:

1) Anecdotal (we only have his word for it) and
2) Non-reproducable (nobody has been able to reproduce his results)

Ironically, these two criticisms are precisely the same two criticisms constantly levied against the psychic community.  There are literally thousands and thousands of similar anecdotal reports of OBE's and NDE's, many of which include information which could only be gathered by some sort of non-physical sense, which are ignored and scoffed at by the greater scientific community. They are ignored because they are "anecdotal" and "non-reproducable".  The individuals describing these experiences can't be relied upon to give accurate descriptions, can't be trusted and the experiences and the results can't be replicated in the lab!

Now weigh up the thousands and thousands of anecdotal reports of veridical OBE's and NDE's against a single report of an experiment on a single individual by a scientist in Switzerland.  What proof do we have that this happened?  What proof do we have that the experiment was conducted exactly as he says?  Where is the peer review?  Where is the double-blind trial? Has this result been reproduced by other scientists? Has it actually been reproduced in anybody else?

The answers are "none", "none", "nowhere", "nowhere", "no", and "no".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it didn't happen.  I'm sure it did, but we need to apply exactly the same standards of scientific rigour to this single incident, as skeptics apply to anecdotes of OBE's and NDE's. It's nonsense to seize on this single account and say it "proves" that OBE's are "imaginary" or they are the result of neurological misfunction.  It proves nothing of the sort.  But it is however testimony to the bias and vitriole of skeptics, who suddenly discard their high standards of scientific rigour - when it comes to an incident that seems to go their way.  Well, I'm sorry but they can't have it both ways!

Now let's assume that this incident actually happened, as I'm sure it did.  I don't mistrust Dr Blanke just as Dr Blanke shouldn't mistrust me when I describe my own highly veridical psychic experiences.  But what does it actually mean?  Does it mean that OBE's are a neurological misfunction?

Not at all!!!  

There are many ways to skin a cat.  Just because Dr Blanke stuck a needle into one person's brain and it gave them the sensation of "leaving the body" doesn't mean that he has suddenly discovered the mechanism by which all OBE's operate.  It doesn't mean he has debunked the myth of OBE's!  You can jump start a car by pushing it down a hill.  This doesn't mean that cars only start downhill and the "great myth of cars driving uphill" has finally been debunked!  What rubbish!

And what can we make of this particular "out of body experience"?  Was it really the same experience as those spontaneous OBE's described by thousands and thousands of people the world over?  We have no way of knowing.  Did the subject describe scenes and events beyond her physical ken?  Was she able to move around freely and observe her physical body?  Could she float and walk through walls?  Could she travel to distant places and bring back verifiable information?  We actually don't know because the precise sensations do not seem to have been clearly reported.  Also any sensations that have been reported are anecdotal and subject to the same possible errors in interpretation as all anecdotes are.  We do know that the patient "saw her legs shortening" and "saw her knees about to hit her face", and that's about it.  So I'm not even sure that I understand exactly what sort of experience this subject actually had.  It's all a bit vague for a monumental discovery which debunks OBE's.

Also since this result was obtained in an epileptic subject, is it really representative of the neurological workings of a normal person?  Absolutely not.  Results obtained in an epileptic subject can not be assumed to apply to people with normal neurology. Not unless they are found in normal subjects too. But they haven't been. So the result is questionable on that score too.

So this really is a highly questionable incident.  It's interesting I admit, but in no way does it cast any cloud whatsoever over the reality of OBE's and NDE's.  For those skeptics who claim it does, I'm sorry but you're wrong.  Scientifically, by your own skeptical standards of rigour, it's meaningless.

catmeow

[David Warner]

Catmeow,

I am not arguing with you what so ever. I am so happy that you brought this to the open because of your background and being a scientist and engineer. I've been doing A LOT of reading, research on NDE's, OBE's and having millions of people around the world reporting the same sequence.. - that to me is something to look at and can't ignore. Also, based upon my experiences too - I have no doubt, but also healthy to keep a open mind.

Anyways, how did you get involved with OBE's and being a scientist did it take you sometime to convience yourself? Kinda of like robert peterson was at first and how he approached obe's?

tvos

[Leyla]

Out-of-body experience clues may hide in mind
Scientists: Misfiring brain behind bizarre sensation

LMAO! My brain accidentally misfired, and shot my neighbor.

(I admit, I'd had a few beers.) :drunks:

[catmeow]

Hi Tvos

My argument absolutely is not with you at all as I hope you realise!  I realise you just posted the link to bring this particular interesting subject into the open.  I've seen this study before and I've seen the hysterical reaction it generated in the media and the skeptical community as "proof that OBE's are just imaginary".  Also I realise how flawed and ridiculous such a conclusion is!  Just sharing!

I became interested in OBE's as a teenager after reading a chapter called "Flying" in a book by Tibetan Lama Lobsang Rampa, and I used to constantly bore my friends at school by talking about it.  That was until I described to someone the layout of their house,  the furniture and so on without ever having been there.  A little later I wrote a 30,000 word "thesis" on out-of-body experiences as part of a school project. I got an "A" grade for this!  I've been hooked ever since, studied the subject and built up an extensive library.  My scientific background comes from doing an engineering degree and Phd, which made me very familiar with the engineering and scientific process.  

My first OBE occurred (again) as a teenager when I woke up one saturday morning and basically "willed" myself to float up with all my strength.  To my astonishment I felt myself float up and suddenly found myself looking at the patterns in the white polystyrene ceiling tiles from a distance of a couple of inches.  I also taught myself hypnosis and was able to hypnotise various friends at school, but my biggest success was hypnotising my mother which I could do at a distance just by concentrating.  Various other psychic verifications followed.

For me there is absolutely no question that psychic abilities exist - I've had sufficient personal verification, and in that respect I suppose I'm quite lucky.  But I'm not convinced that this all means that we survive physical death.  I believe it's more likely than not, but unproven.  But I like to think that I retain a completely open mind, and will always argue against bias, stupidity, bad science and closed-mindedness.  Because it annoys me!  We have literally thousands of cases of OBE's and all of these people have something worth listening to.  As someone cleverer than me once said:

"Whatever the humblest men affirm from their own experience is always worth listening to, but what even the cleverest of men, in their ignorance, deny, is never worth a moment's attention" - Sir William Barrett

[ubiquitous]

the cat meow's
she's back
good stuff!

4ur2b3

u cannot see it only indirectly observe it
therefore a misrepresentation
but still a working function

[catmeow]

MT - Precisley. Good points!

[skropenfield]

this result has never been replicated by anyone, ever, anywhere in the world

Note- this result has been replicated. Direct replication are some cases of Wilder Penfield. Halgren E, Walter RD, Cherlow DG had carried out thousands of stimulations, but they speak from "hallucinations of vivid scenes like weird dream", etc etc, simply no such terms as OBEs. Certain replication is work of Yu.N. Cherednichenko, also concerning angular gyrus. Siberian Branch of Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. Institute of General Pathology and Human Ecology, Laboratory of clinical diagnostics and therapy. He had healthy test subjects!!!

Could she travel to distant places and bring back verifiable information?

Yes. By Cherednichenko this was the case. Also note- Dr. Olaf Blanke revealed that the epileptic patient actually made visual observations of the operating room that the conventional scientific paradigm cannot explain. Even though he understandably excluded these details from the article published in the journal Nature. Although he is unsure how patients can see themselves, given no such information is picked up by their eyes.

We do know that the patient "saw her legs shortening" and "saw her knees about to hit her face"

This is the so called micropsia. Also some practical projectors by projecting with OPEN EYES can observe the same.

but in no way does it cast any cloud whatsoever over the reality of OBE's and NDE's

Absolutely correct. Make an attempt to imagine the process of OBE in terms of substance dualism. The brain is a thing, it is clear, but imagine for example the consciousness as another thing, ontologically fully different, but a thing. Make an attempt to imagine energy-informative INTERACTION.

There is this idea around for a couple of centuries already since Descartes that if we can prove a particular mind state is related to the brain, that somehow that mind state is caused by the brain.

But where the problem lies? Carry out an out of body experience and some mental states will be caused by astral body, not by brain. :cheerleader2:  :cheerleader2:  :cheerleader2:

[greatoutdoors]

Catmeow, In addition to Skropenfield's examples, I believe there have been other occurrences as well. According to articles I've read in the past couple of years. Scientists are just beginning to study this kind of thing.

Did you know that, by stimulating certain parts of the brain with electrodes, scientists have caused rats to eat themselves to death? Or, in the reverse, they have shut off the hunger signal and the mice won't eat at all. If memory serves, use of magnets on particular areas of the brain has caused temporary blindness.

My point is that this study comes closer to proving OBE exists than otherwise. Everything we experience, including sight, speech, dreaming, mobility, etc. is caused by impulses from some area of the brain. Therefore, this result goes far toward showing OBE is a real event.

TVoS, you have done it again. Nice post and keep up the good work!

[Donal]

^great post

What do eastern mystics say about these kind of experiments? (trying to invalidate OBE's)

[catmeow]

Note- this result has been replicated. Direct replication are some cases of Wilder Penfield. Halgren E, Walter RD, Cherlow DG had carried out thousands of stimulations, but they speak from "hallucinations of vivid scenes like weird dream", etc etc, simply no such terms as OBEs. Certain replication is work of Yu.N. Cherednichenko, also concerning angular gyrus. Siberian Branch of Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. Institute of General Pathology and Human Ecology, Laboratory of clinical diagnostics and therapy. He had healthy test subjects!!!

Thanks for the interesting info, which I'll follow up, but I'm not really convinced that others have repeated Dr Blanke's exact result, ie obtaining OBE's by stimulating the angular gyrus.  Blanke himself obtained this result in only one subject, a female epileptic, by accident and with no experimental controls in place. Nevertheless this hasn't stopped commentators from going ballistic and suggesting that we now have the answer to OBE's.  The reason? Well apparently since the angular gyrus is responsible for body and spatial awareness, stimulating it naturally produces OBE's, which are therefore all just hallucinations.

This explanation is actually contradicted by Penfield (who you quoted). Penfield apparently produced OBE-like experiences back in the 1950's by stimulating the sylvian fissure, a completely different area of the brain. The sylvian fissure has nothing to do with body and spatial awareness, yet stimulating it also produced OBE-like sensations. Additionally as you say many neurologists have produced dream-like sensations, colours, shapes, and hallucinations by electrically or magnetically stimulating different parts of the brain.

However, there is no concensus, with different researchers obtaining varying results by stimulating different parts of the brain.  Scientifically, this just isn't good enough to justify any of the claims made by commentators after Blankes (single) result.  I do agree that all of these results are interesting and worthy of much more research.  But no conclusions can be drawn until the same results can be replicated at least once by different researchers in different labs.  As far as I am aware this concensus has not happened. (I don't know much about Cherednichenko's work in this respect.  Can you provide some links to this research?)

I'm just asking OBE-skeptics to provide the same, rigorous scientific controls and proofs to support their own claims as they require of OBE-believers to support theirs.  And to stop making unscientific claims!

But in any event I think we basically agree.  Even if scientists discover a fool-proof way of producing OBE's by stimulating a certain part of the brain, and let's hope they do, this wouldn't mean that OBE's are hallucinations.  It could just as easily mean that scientists discovered a good way of ejecting people from their bodies!

My point is that this study comes closer to proving OBE exists than otherwise

I agree!

[David Warner]

Catmeow,

I agree with the previous posts made about how "science" is just beginning to realize and tap into this field of testing and work. I think with the experiences we've heard about NDE's validations, blind people who obe and can describe in perfect details, and even our own validations. We can't deny something is definitely there... but to have science validate the OBE, I don't think we will ever see it in our lifetime, or if ever. I think some things like this won't be able to access because of the sacredness and what God has created.

Tvos

[Donal]

Yes, an OBE is a non-physical phenomena. For science to prove, and therefore accept, they'll have to accept the existence of non-physical phenomena, a feat I don't think they will make.

We are going to hit a stalemate in science soon.

[MisterJingo]

Yes, an OBE is a non-physical phenomena. For science to prove, and therefore accept, they'll have to accept the existence of non-physical phenomena, a feat I don't think they will make.

We are going to hit a stalemate in science soon.

If it is non-physical phenomena, how can the physical have knowledge of it (ie if the physical couldn;t have knowledge of the astral, then this forum wouldn't be here).

[zyzyx]

Well, I believe the physical is tied into the non-physical.  Actually, this is true according to physics.  E=mc^2 literally means that energy is accelerated matter.  So, energy is matter.  In an OBE we exist in a form of pure energy.  Then when we return our bodies, the memories of our energy bodies are transferred to our physical brain. This is quite easy since our brains operate via bioelectric impulse, i.e. energy.

-Z

[Donal]

Interesting theory zyzyx.

And MJ, I meant to say it in that consciousness is non-physical, and science would have to expand their boundaries to cater for that.