Parallel Universes

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Leyla

Ah! But I already have time traveled.  An "akashic pulse" experience is rare, but not unheard of.

catmeow

Leyla

Quote from: LeylaAh! But I already have time traveled. An "akashic pulse" experience is rare, but not unheard of.
You've lost the plot completely now.  Our discussion pertains to whether or not the laws of physical science permit forward and backward travel in time, not whether or not you think you have done this astrally.  :?  

Also I still haven't had an answer regarding what you meant by this incomprehensible statement:

Quote from: LeylaI would not sarcastically throw about the word "cheers," for instance. That would make me sound haughty and pretentious.
You're making less and less sense with every post.

catmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

catmeow

Hi Leyla

Quote from: LeylaThe same information on particles is available in my copies of "Metapatterns," "The Holographic Universe," "and "The Dancing Wu Li Masters."

All are pretty good books as far as Physics goes.
No they're not.

Metapatterns is written by Tyler Volk, The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot and The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukov.

These three authors don't have a single physics degree between them.  Gary Zukov has a degree in International Relations from Harvard, obtained in 1937, and Michael Talbot has no qualifications whatsoever.  Tyler Volk is an academic with a seat at New York University, but he has no qualifications in physics whatsoever. As such, none of these authors is qualified to comment on Quantum Mechanics.

At work, I have asked two colleagues whether the following statement is true:

Quote from: LeylaAll particles are able to move backward and forward in time, and can even communicate with one another across distances. And we are all made up of particles.
I told them I thought the statement was untrue. Both have confirmed that this statement is in fact untrue.  One has a degree in Particle Physics.  The other has a PhD in Particle Physics.  The guy with the PhD was the most succint:

Quote from: PhD in Particle PhysicsYes my PhD is in Particle Physics (experimental). Yep, the guy has got it all wrong. You have it right both with the QM and relativity. Neither QM nor special relativity allow particles to move backwards in time. Relativity is about mass/time/velocity. QM is about wave/particle duality and probablity/position. Neither include traveling backwards in time!!!!
The other guy was more verbose but said the same.

I have ordered The Tao of Physics because this is by an author qualified to comment. The other authors may well be inspirational New Age thinkers, and their books might be an interesting read, but they are utterly unqualified to comment about Particle Physics.

Your assertion that all particles can move forwards and backwards in time is completely wrong.  As I said all along.

catmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

MisterJingo

I can't really add to the great information put across by Catmeow and Telos. But I think Leyla is referencing entanglement when she talks of particles communicating across large distances (sorry if this has already been said.)
Just because we are made up of particles doesn't mean we inherit (on a consciousness level) potential properties of them.

beavis

Normal relative and quantum physics at least allow time travel of information to a place far away in the past, but only if its far enough that light couldnt get back here in time to influence anything before the information was sent. 5 years to the past needs more than 5 lightyears distance. No paradoxes.

We know time moves at different rates for different particles, depending on their speed and location.
 If we entangled 2, sent one of them to orbit a black hole (theoreticly, ignore how long that takes) and fall back to earth, years less time would have passed for that particle.
Does physics say this is IMpossible?: Recieve a message from the particle that came back from space. Years later, send that message on the particle that stayed on earth.

QuoteJust because we are made up of particles doesn't mean we inherit (on a consciousness level) potential properties of them.

Our brains could be entangled with lots of other particles. Some of us figure out exactly which connections and are able to get astral information from it.

catmeow

Hi Beavis

I've read your posts in other threads and you usually have something interesting to say.

Quote from: BeavisNormal relative and quantum physics at least allow time travel of information to a place far away in the past, but only if its far enough that light couldnt get back here in time to influence anything before the information was sent. 5 years to the past needs more than 5 lightyears distance. No paradoxes.
The theory of relativity allows travel into the future, for sure.  It has been proven and verified experimentally.  But we can't travel back in time!  That's the rub.  I don't understand what you're saying!  :?

catmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

beavis

I know about future travel. Orbit a black hole once a few feet from the event horizon and you might travel (not sure of the exact scale) billions of years, but the increasingly high frequency of the light would radiation burn you to death.

catmeow

Hi beavis

Actually it's simpler than that.  All you have to do is jump into a rocket travel away from the Earth at the speed of light a distance of 50 light years, do a u-turn, come back at the speed of light.  By the time you get back to Earth, it will be 2105, but as far as the rocket traveller is concerned only a couple of minutes will have elapsed.  So by this method you have jumped 100 years into the future!  But there's no return path... you can't get back to 2005!  That, as I say, is "the rub"!

Another problem is that it requires an infinite amount of energy to accelerate to the speed of light.

This effect has been experimentally demonstrated by placing atomic clocks on high speed aircraft, and comparing them with a similar atomic clock on the ground.

Massive anomalies also occur near black holes, as you mentioned, but there is no black hole near the Earth so this can't be used to account for any psychic activity going on down here...!

catmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

beavis

You can go to the future with less than light speed.

catmeow

Quote from: beavisYou can go to the future with less than light speed.
Yes of course you can, I was just giving a simple example

catmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

Tombo

QuoteI can't really add to the great information put across by Catmeow and Telos. But I think Leyla is referencing entanglement when she talks of particles communicating across large distances (sorry if this has already been said.)
Just because we are made up of particles doesn't mean we inherit (on a consciousness level) potential properties of them.

No this has not been said, I think. And yes entangled Particles seem to be able to communicate over indefinite distances without time delay. This is highly confusing and suggests the whole Universe might operate as ONE. Does entanglement allow time travel into the past? Might be! But as I said, it is yet to be explored.
If one entangled Particle is moving at a higher speed then the other, time is moving slower for it. Therefore the other Particle should be in the Past relative to the one that moves faster. Can we now send info via the particle in the future to the one in the past? I do not know? Interesting thought, I think.
I think this discussion has to make clear what it is about. Do we talk about what might be possible or do we talk about what the current laws of Physic allow?
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

astralspinner

QuoteIf one entangled Particle is moving at a higher speed then the other, time is moving slower for it. Therefore the other Particle should be in the Past relative to the one that moves faster. Can we now send info via the particle in the future to the one in the past?

No. When an entangled particle communicates with the other particle, it does so instantaneously, ie at the exact same time. Even if one has moved around really fast while the other stayed still.

They can send a message from A-now to B-now.They can't send a message from A-now to B-five-minutes-ago.

Leyla

CatMeow-

I will try to put this as simply as I can:

If time travel isn't scientifically possible then I wouldn't have been able to do it.  :roll:

catmeow

Leyla

Thanks for making it simple for me.  You're missing the point (again).  Your time travel experiences and ESP in general have nothing (IMHO) to do with the physical sciences.  That's the point I've been making all along, and which you and I were discussing.  Not whether ESP, astral travel, precognition or astral Akashic Record experiences are possible.  In my own personal experience, ESP is a certainty, but it is not goverened by the laws of physical science.  Whether or not you have astrally travelled in time is irrelevant to our discussion.  

catrmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

MisterJingo

Concerning travelling astrally into the past. Unless one can make some form of change which alters ones present physical reality (although I cant see how such a thing could be empirically recorded, only believed in) isn't it an equally possibility that one is experiencing recordings/memories of the past?
It has been suggested that quantum gravity exhibits holography. Due to the nature of holograms, isn't it at least a possibility that not only the universes current state is recorded, but every previous state too? (Many worlds theory.) I know I am making assumptions here, but it's an idea I just came up with and nothing more. But then again. If the many worlds theory holds true (which it tends to be now) which past would one be projecting into?
Projection into the future is projection into a possible future, and so could be considered fantasy bounded by ones knowledge of current world/universe events and organisation.

catmeow

Hi MisterJingo

Thanks for your kind comments earlier.  :)

At first when I read your post I thought you were refering to Everett's "Many Worlds" interpretation of the wave-function problem.  But I'm not sure if that's what you meant now.  In any case, Everett's "Many Worlds" theory allows for an infinite number of universes each with its own unique history.  Everything which ever could have happened and everything which ever will happen is represented by a different universe.

In this model, if travel backwards in time were possible, we would simply move into a different universe with its own history.  There would be no possibility of encountering a "past" version of ourselves in this universe because we would never have existed in it before.  This solves the paradox of meeting yourself in the past.

However, this type of time travel would be of no practical use whatsoever! :cry:

catmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

catmeow

Hi Leyla

I've got a copy of The Tao of Physics now.  What Fritjof Capra is describing is a branch of relativity called "quantum electrodynamics" (QED) or "relativistic field theory".  The diagram you refer to is a standard space-time diagram.  It shows an electron and an anti-electron travelling forwards in time, which then collide, annihalite, and produce a photon which then continues to travel forwards in time:

In 1949 Richard Feynman (who won the Nobel prize for Physics in 1965) showed that the mathematical field equations describing the behaviour of particles such as electrons and anti-electrons are symmetrical, with regard to time.  Or to put it another way, an anti-electron moving forwards in time is mathematically equivalent to an electron moving backwards in time.

Given this information Fritjof then redraws the diagram to depict it as an electron moving forwards in time, which then splits into a photon moving forwards in time and an electron moving backwards in time.  Well please note that this is all just a matter of mathematical notation.  It's just a mathematical abstraction.  It doesn't mean that anything is actually going backwards in time.  It's just that it looks kind of neat in the diagram to draw it that way...

Anyway, Fritjof then later mentions that "all particles can move forwards and backwards in time".  But when he says this he is describing a mathematical abstraction, rather than stating what actually happens.

Let me put it another way.  Let's assume that I video Michael Schumacher winning the Australian Grand Prix.  I could play this back to my friends and say "Look, this is Schumacher driving really quickly".  Or I could play it backwards and say "Look, this is anti-Schumacher driving really quickly and going backwards in time!  Isn't that amazing?  It means that All racing drivers can go forwards and backwards in time!"

That's exactly what Fritjof is doing.

To be honest, Fritjof moves so subtley from fact to mathematical abstraction in his argument, that I would forgive anybody for being misled by him.  So I can totally understand why you said what you said about particles moving backwards in time.  But please note, actually they don't.

catmeow
The bad news is there's no key to the Universe. The good news is it's not locked. - Swami Beyondananda

MisterJingo

Yeah, my bad, I meant Feynman's multiple history idea :) But on recollection, it doesn't actually have any bearing on what I was trying to say! I guess the only way of ever recreating the past would be based upon wave function calculations, and so then only an approximation of the past at best (if we ever get to a strange where such staggering feats are feasible!)
This poses an interesting question. Can one ever truly visit the past in astral form? If so, how and in what state is this 'past' stored? (If we consider it to be a memory of the past.) I could gauge some assumptions which are more metaphysical than scientific but they don't really answer the question in a means we could ever test.

N.b. before anyone suggests it, I know that light reaches out to us from the past over tremendous distances (some of it will never reach us) but I am concerned with the past of our immediate locale (Earth.)

Tombo

astralspinner wrote

QuoteNo. When an entangled particle communicates with the other particle, it does so instantaneously, ie at the exact same time. Even if one has moved around really fast while the other stayed still.

They can send a message from A-now to B-now.They can't send a message from A-now to B-five-minutes-ago.

I don't understand what you mean. I thought the point of relativity is that there is no absolute time scale.

Lets picture the following experiment: We have 2 "white" entangled Particles in a Laboratory. So lets say if we switch one of them to "black" the other switches to "black" instantly as well.

Now let  Einstein take one Particle (A) and fly around the earth with 99.9999% of the speed of light for one year, the other Particle (B) stays in the Laboratory with Heisenberg. After one year Albert returns to the Laboratory with Particle (A).
Particle B is now 1 year ahead in time relative to Particle A.
Now Heisenberg decides to switch Particle B to black.
What will happen?

1)He already knew I'll do it cause he saw that the Particle A Einstein was carrying when we entered the Library was black. Thus free will is a illusion :shock:

2) The Particle A is still white as Einstein entered the room and switches to black the very same moment Particle B is switched to black . Thus the "switching-signal" travels 1 year into the past, relative to the Laboratory time.

What will happen if Einstein decides to switch A to black first, once he enters the room?

1) Particle B is already black as Einstein enters the room thus free will is a illusion :shock:

2) Particle B switches to black as Einstein switches A to black, thus the signal travels 1 Year into the future relative to Einstein




Leyla wrote
QuoteI will try to put this as simply as I can:

If time travel isn't scientifically possible then I wouldn't have been able to do it.

O.k. I think I now understand what you mean. When you say "Laws of nature", "scientifically possible", "physically possible"  or such, you mean the "real world" you mean: "what in reality is possible"

But if I or  catmeow say "Laws of nature", "scientifically possible", "physically possible"  or such we mean: What, according to our current knowledge, which is accepted by mainstream Physicists, seems to be possible.

We are trying to say: "Travel into the past might be possible but it is not a accepted fact by Physicists"

Now you claim to be able to travel into the past. Are you sure about that? Can you change something there? Are you sure that you not just visited a realistic duplication of the past that was created in the Astral based upon thoughts by people that lived there?
Or easy put:
Is looking a documentary about the second World war on TV time travel?
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

Leyla

Catmeow- I am not missing the point. You are. Just because these things haven't been figured out by physical science yet doesn't mean they won't be. I don't care who tells you it can't be done. I don't care the reasons they may give. They're wrong.

Tombo seems to know what I mean.

Also Tombo, you came up with a good question. So here's what happend in detail:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had an overwhelming desire to speak with my grandmother.

No surprise then, that I found myself astrally transported to her house. I hung around in my invisible state, eaves-dropping on her conversation.

I then felt I had overstayed and my body was trying to pull me back in- problem:
I got lost in time.

A series of portals opened up in front of me:
1) me at age six walking across my great aunts living room
2) me at age twelve laying on my other aunts couch
3) me in this apartment, in bed
4) me in the future, some kind of traveling artist

I could have walked into any one of them!

I did not know where I belonged, until the future me informed the current me that I was "still back in that little apartment." (portal #3)

I got back, sick and dizzy from my overstay. Also I was miserably hot and feverish, burning up with waves of heat.

I rolled over to write down what I over-heard at my grandmothers house. I realized with shock that it won't take place for five or six more years!

I had traveled forward in time!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here's the creepy part. The times that I was looking in on, as a little girl aged 6 and 12- I *remembered* having an extreemly spooked out feeling in those moments of my childhood that I was being WATCHED.

It just goes round in circles. Man, I could go nuts trying to figure it out.

MisterJingo

Regarding entanglement. It's considered now that faster than light communication is not needed. For example:
A radioactive particle decays and sends out two particles in opposite directions and with opposite spins. If an observer measures the spin of one particle he can say with certainty what the spin of what the other particle is even if it is on the other side of the universe. This is where Einstein became confused. Observing the spin of one particle does not instantly change the spin of the other, as the observers could no more choose the spin of the observed particle (S. Hawkins.)
I'm not sure how this implies free will is an illusion though. If the deterministic view of the universe was proved (with methods such as p-brane theory of black holes) then it could suggest that free will is an illusion - although I'm not sure how the determinism of particles could transcribe to seemingly complex humans/consciousness. It is something that concerns me though.

Tombo

QuoteCatmeow- I am not missing the point. You are

I think none of you  is missing "the point", the two of you just talked at cross purposes. But I think we should focus on what you experienced Leyla, cause that is the interesting part!

QuoteI had an overwhelming desire to speak with my grandmother.

No surprise then, that I found myself astrally transported to her house. I hung around in my invisible state, eaves-dropping on her conversation.

I then felt I had overstayed and my body was trying to pull me back in- problem:
I got lost in time.

A series of portals opened up in front of me:
1) me at age six walking across my great aunts living room
2) me at age twelve laying on my other aunts couch
3) me in this apartment, in bed
4) me in the future, some kind of traveling artist

I could have walked into any one of them!

I did not know where I belonged, until the future me informed the current me that I was "still back in that little apartment." (portal #3)

I got back, sick and dizzy from my overstay. Also I was miserably hot and feverish, burning up with waves of heat.

I rolled over to write down what I over-heard at my grandmothers house. I realized with shock that it won't take place for five or six more years!

I had traveled forward in time!

This is a awesome experience! Now can you explain one thing in more detail, please: Which one is it?
-You wrote down what you heard at or grandmothers house and then it happened 5 years later, then you pulled out your Notebook and voilà it was exactly as you wrote down? Or
-The experience is not  long ago and what you wrote down will happen in the future ? And you just know it will happen like a Déja vu.

I suppose that your overwhelming desire to speak with your grandmother caused you to time travel and that you can't do it on purpose. Can you do it on Purpose?

QuoteAnd here's the creepy part. The times that I was looking in on, as a little girl aged 6 and 12- I *remembered* having an extremely spooked out feeling in those moments of my childhood that I was being WATCHED.

It just goes round in circles. Man, I could go nuts trying to figure it out.

Pretty creepy I would say! This is though to figure out! Although if we assume that conscious itself is not bound to time (Like Robert Bruce and other believe), or in other words time is a illusion, then it starts to make some sense. Still not  a lot of sense though! I guess I have to think about what you said............. Did you have more experiences like that? If yes I'd like to hear...................
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

Leyla

Tombo:

I wrote down the experience, and it has not happened yet. But it will.

You'll think this is funny- (I do) I CAN do it on purpose. But I won't because it frightens me. So I just wait for it to happen involuntarily.

That's the only time travel experience I've had. I understand Nostradomus was able to do it regularly. I found it amazingly physically/energetically tasking, and wonder if he was really doing it on purpose or if he was dragged.

I have heard it said that all psychic work is a form of "time travel" because you're getting information on future events that have yet to take place.

I'd never thought of it that way before.

I've met gifted psychics and had them give me accurate detailed information, so I'm convinced it's real.

Tombo

O.k. this may sound annoying but sorry ,I have to ask:
How can you be sure it will happen? Do you exactly know like, in 1 year it will happen or do you just wait and see?

So basically, You just know on the bottom of your heart, that it will happen, right?

Your experience kinda reminds me of Deja vus, there is this theory that says, Deja vus are future events that we saw in Dreams.
My sister has a lot of them. She usually can decide whether she wants to change the experience or let it happen like it is supposed to.
Do you think, you could change the future, you experienced? Or do you believe it will happen exactly like you saw it, no matter what?
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross

Tombo

Quote from: MisterJingoRegarding entanglement. It's considered now that faster than light communication is not needed. For example:
A radioactive particle decays and sends out two particles in opposite directions and with opposite spins. If an observer measures the spin of one particle he can say with certainty what the spin of what the other particle is even if it is on the other side of the universe. This is where Einstein became confused. Observing the spin of one particle does not instantly change the spin of the other, as the observers could no more choose the spin of the observed particle (S. Hawkins.)
I'm not sure how this implies free will is an illusion though. If the deterministic view of the universe was proved (with methods such as p-brane theory of black holes) then it could suggest that free will is an illusion - although I'm not sure how the determinism of particles could transcribe to seemingly complex humans/consciousness. It is something that concerns me though.

In my view, If the deterministic view of the universe was proved that would suck the very essence of Life out of the world. A predeterminate Universe would be a dead meaningless Universe. I refuse to believe that.
" In order to arrive at a place you do not know you must go by a way you do not know "

-St John of the Cross