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Author Topic: Proof  (Read 21770 times)
Euphoric Sunrise
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« on: January 19, 2004, 10:04:06 »

There's a common way to prove (to yourself at least) that you exited your body.

Get a playing card, do NOT look at the front of it. Tape it to a window so it is facing outside and you can't see what number and suit it is. Then when you project out of your body, look at the face of the card, go back to your body straight away, look at the card and see if you were right.

Of course, if you want to prove it to other people, it won't be as easy as that [xx(] [Tongue]
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2004, 10:30:41 »

In my experience the problem with proving real-time zone projections are real is that you have very limited time before things change.

So recently I did a small test myself using playing cards. Instead of hiding one up and out of the way somewhere I decided to make it as simple as possible and place it as close to my body as possible. My thinking was that even a partial projection would be enough to see it without having to fight my way to it, and because it was so close to my physical body I felt I would see it before I got too tired, it changed, I forgot or stopped caring about it etc.

With my eyes closed I shuffled the pack, removed one and placed it against the arm rest of the sofa. I lay back, relaxed and went to sleep. Within a minute or so I got the vibrations. I thought to myself "This is it!" and 'sat up'.

My vision was dark, I could hardly see anything at all. And I had the feeling I had my eyes tightly shut so I couldn't cheat. I was reluctant to open my eyes in case I opened my physical ones. Normally I am quite relaxed but couldn't help being a little stressed as I knew I was testing myself.

After a couple of seconds of peering in the darkness I began to see the vague outline of the arm of the sofa, and sitting upright in the middle was a rectangular patch of very pale white that I knew was the card. I looked closer at it, and I could see 'spots'. It was unmistakably a playing card, and though it was so dark that I couldn't see barely at all, I could tell it wasn't a picture card. I made a guess at the suit and value of the card, and suddenly was back completely in my body.

When I sat up awake, the card was exactly where I put (I couldn't see at the time I placed it as my eyes were closed, it could have been nearer one end of the sofa arm or the other, but it was in the middle just as I had seen it in the projection). It wasn't the correct card though, but it was a non-picture card.

I wouldn't claim that was anywhere near like 100% proof, but to me it is heading in the right direction. I couldn't see properly, but I saw the type of card it was, and it was in the exact place I left it. Yes there's a fairly high statistical chance that I could have guessed a non-picture card. But I think you have to take what you get, no projection that I have ever experienced into the physical world has ever been 100% accurate, 100% clear or 100% unchanging.

What let me down on this occasion was my vision, partly through my own stress, not wanting to cheat, I wasn't relaxed enough, and I knew I had very little time to see the card. The previous evening I had partially projected and saw the curtains bathed in lamplight, very very clear. I raised my arm and i saw my hand, which disolved partially and I could still see the curtain where my hand had been. On opening my eyes the scene was excatly right (light, reflections shadows and positions) which inspired me to try to card test the next afternoon, but I had this 'hang up' about opening my eyes. Still I was quite satisified with the result, but no it is not the 100% experience you asked for.
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2004, 10:30:41 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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AndrewTheSinger
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2004, 10:56:16 »

Ya, there are always some things that match and some things that don't.

A nice one I can remeber right now was when I visited a friend of mine in Usa and saw him sat down writing something, and when I invited him to go fly outside I saw he had a buddy there who was black, thin, tall, and had short hair.  

After returning I emailed him to tell the story and he said he was writing songs that day, and his only black friend was there with him, he is thin tall and has very short hair.

I also told him of the building I saw him in, the hallways, a gate in the street, but all these didn't match.

I posted my experience here: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4075&SearchTerms=a,great,experience,partly

Hey Tom, would you like to participate in the search for the missing girl? I know you're goot at finding things in the dream. I see you are involved in another experiment, it's alright if you can't do it right now.

 
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Risu no Kairu
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2004, 12:25:11 »

I really don't see why proof matters.

Even if these out of body experiences were merely lucid dreams, they're still something many people enjoy and like having.

They're clearly a real phenomena.

Why would hundreds (thousands, or more, maybe?) of people make up so many stories and describe them all in almost hte same way?

Who is to say what is "real?"

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Tombo
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2004, 17:22:30 »

Thanks for the replies! Isn't it funny how hard it seems to be, to get that kind of proof?

To Euphoric Sunrise: I know that experiment, I tried it myself. It didn't work though. I'll certainly try again. Did you ever succesfully do it?

To stephen~: Yeah, thats at least something. You should try it again.


AndrewTheSinger: Thanks for sharing the experience: These are the kinds of experiences I'm looking for. I had a LD once where I saw a light switch in our house at a very strange place. Next day I checked the place and the wall really looked like a lighning switch there. But of course thats no proof maybe my brain had stored that info in the subconscious. Whats the story with the girl? Where can I read something about it? I'll  try to help!

To Risu no Kairu: I agree it's clearly a real phenomenom, I had a OBE myself. I do not wanna judge what is real. I just wanna know what really happens. There are various reasons why proofs matter:
-I'm curious
-the better you understand something the better you can use it. What could be bad about knowing as much as possible about OBE's? It helps me interprete the experience if I know as much as possible about the cause of it.
-I want to know if I'm really walking thru our neighbours has our if it just a fantasie, is that so hard to understand? Lets assume you see a beautyful girl during an OBE. Don't you wanna know if she's really alive?[Wink]
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Euphoric Sunrise
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2004, 21:29:31 »

quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann

To Euphoric Sunrise: I know that experiment, I tried it myself. It didn't work though. I'll certainly try again. Did you ever succesfully do it?


I haven't successfully projected yet so no i haven't tried it, and i'm not sure i will.
As others have mentioned, there are too many factors that can change things when you're out of body.
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Tombo
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2004, 15:09:47 »

Anybody??
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2004, 17:53:38 »

Once i asked the same question but there wasnīt any good answer. No one seemed interested in proofs. Until now no one that makes obes has ever talked about proofs to themselves. I mean, there are so many obers and many obers reading this, i cannot believe that no one tried to proof obes to himself (sucess proofs). For newbies like us, itīs really important to hear that someone had some sucess with that. Itīs important to know, from other experienced people that themselves proofed (prooved?! my english itīs bad...) the realoty of obes with simple tests like the one with cards.

Many of you will argue that such proof itīs irrelevant, but your are wrong. If iīm trying something new, itīs good to know if itīs true or not true. Maybe all the obers are just having some king of supra-hallucination, very real (but not real). Maybe some of you will say that even if obes are not real (just a kind of ultra real hallucination), at least they are fun. Well, in that case my interest in obes will decrease very much because i pretend to use obes with other intentions, not just in a funny way. So, as you see, itīs important to know if they are real.

After reading this i hope that many obers in this forum will give some personal proffs (like.."I guessed the card 3times and never failed" or "i saw the plate numer in the astral and confirmed that in the real world"...etc).

thanks
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2004, 19:48:40 »

I haven't projected yet, but I am also surprised how few people on this forum have had 'confirmed' "RTZ" projections. Although there are other ways to do it, it is important to prove to yourself that the mind and the brain are seperate.
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2004, 20:50:50 »

I mostly project during the day. Over time I have noticed that although such things as furniture, small objects or doors etc don't match up with the real world all the time in an RTZ projection, atmospheric conditions do.

This depends upon having normal vision, but when it is clear I find the RTZ is exactly like the light and weather conditions at the time in the physical world. The light level in the room matches, if the sun is pouring in through the windows then it is in the projection. During evenings when the lights are on then the light quality in the projection is the same, the lights are on and the shadows are present where you'd expect them. A 40watt bulb looks the same here and 'there'.

If my vision is fine during the RTZ it always seems to be this way. To me this suggests more in the way of proof than card readings etc. For if I was creating the scene in my head how come I never get a sunny day RTZ projection at 7.30pm on a dark winter's night? How can it be that my mind can create a door where there isn't one, but it can't do a simple thing like make the room brighter or darker than it really is at the time?

I think a lot of us scramble round maybe looking for proof in playing cards and numbers, and overlook the biggest clue which is that you don't get moonlight and stars during daytime projections, or 'false' lighting or weather conditions at all in RTZ projections. At least, that's my experience of RTZ. I think I would have had some over time that were innacurate in this regard, but I can honestly say it has never happened to me yet (I imagine it would be hard to forget the surprise of, say, seeing the room bathed in moonlight if you knew it was 2 o'clock in the afternoon).

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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2004, 20:52:34 »

Here is why I don't bother with proof.

1) First of all, 80% of the time that you do have an OBE when you want it, you're so overwhelmed with the moment that you don't think about doing the same things as you did when you were awake, like reading a card or something like that.  It would be completely different if you could OBE at will, and not worry about "wasting" one of these experiences.  But for me, I may get out once a week, and I usually get caught up with other astral things.

2) Let's just say, for arguements sake, that you OBE to a card, and you misread it.....or the card isn't there like it is in the physical.  What would you conclude from this?  You might say, "Hmmmm...the experiment failed.  That means this isn't real."

We could go on a long tangent about the nature of reality, and how there is no such thing as an "un-real" experience.....but going along with the above scenario, would it really matter to you if it was proven to be fake?

Is it really that big a deal if you find out that all these OBE's are just in your head?  The answer is no...because you KNOW at the time of the experience that what you're experiencing is REAL!  No one could tell you otherwise, just as no one can convince you that you're really sleeping right now as you read this.  You just KNOW that you're awake and in front of a computer, just as you KNOW you're awake and having an OBE when it happens.

The point is that many people put a lot of burden on proving that these non-physical experiences are real by PHYSICAL standards.  Personally, even if you could never prove that it was real to physical standards, I could care less, because it's more than real to me.

In layman's terms, if many of you found out today that the favorite orange juice you drink is NOT made from real oranges, but in fact an orange substitute, would you really care?  Probably not.
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kiauma
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2004, 21:16:22 »

Once, I had arranged to have someone meet me in the astral.  I was to tell them a word.  On waking, we figured if she could tell me the word, that would be 'proof' we had met in the astral.

Later that week I was successful in APing.  We met.  She waited for me to tell her the word.  I couldn't.

I couldn't tell her because I had made the word up.  It had no meaning.  My mind ached trying to come up with a concept I could communicate the word I had made up, but because I had made it up, it had no meaning.

I was not able to repeat the experiement, and afterward, though she said she had APed, she had no memory of meeting me.

My point though, is that in a simular way I think it likely to be very difficult to 'read a card' in the astral because color spots on paper have no meaning.  In the astral, emotion is what communicates best.  Our 'mind' has meaning.  Homes, walls, and such have meaning.  We also identify emotionally with the weather (sunny, rainy, etc.).

Things get done in the astral because they need to get done, on whatever level of soul work you are at.  I think verifying the 'physical reality of the astral' (a huge contradiction) is very low on the cosmic agenda.

The word was kiauma.

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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2004, 23:52:43 »

JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! might as well call you martin luther king with your lecktures. lol good work

lol the vibrations PERIOD is proof for me my friends, lol the lifting of some kind of invisible arm is proof enough for me lol
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2004, 02:18:12 »

I know that someone on this forum posted a while ago about successfully doing the card experiment.  Just do a search on card trick.  

If you’re interested in something that suggests that AP is real a good area to look into is NDEs which are much more powerful events that are linked to AP.  There have been many cases of people identifying things they couldn’t see.  The information brought back from NDEs throughout different cultures and beliefs has been too consistent to be just a hallucination.  Here is a good overview of some of the evidence for NDEs:  http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

Also wasn’t there already some kind of successful verification with API?  
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2004, 02:32:58 »

Near-death.com is a great site!
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2004, 10:13:49 »

I can understand that some of you don't care for that kind of proof, but at least there seem to be a number of people that do so.
I for myself think it's very thrilling to do these kinds of tests. My thinking is simple: If it's really possible to leave the body behind (what I want to believe!) and visit other worlds. it must be possible to proof that.
I had 2 ObE's myself including the vibrations and the feeling of separation, So I'm goal isn't to proof that all of it is made up or something.
But some of us, maybe to more materialistic thinking, really want to know what really is going on.
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2004, 16:37:06 »

tombodenman: there is nothing materialistic in wishing to know truth about obes. I notice that the ones that donīt care about proofs are the experienced obers. But they think that we (newbies) are materialistic just because we donīt accept something at a first glance.

I have my mind very opened to such things but i will not accept 100% until i get some proof. And why? Blind faith in something itīs saomething dangerous. Buda, the creator of one great religion, itīs the first one inviting people to study his teachings and try them in a pratical way, only them we will be able to judge them.

This kind of mentality itīs very important in order to avoid illusions and wrong paths. So, about obeīs i must try by myself, but while iīm not able to try it (still learning...) it would be great if someone in this forum could give some proof of itīs reality (by proof i mean a relate of some experience occured during your obeīs).

Itīs not arrongance from my self wishing this proofs, itīs just that iīm tired to see so many lies and illusions in my life. I mean, you obers are not lying but there is a minimal possibility that obeīs are just a kind of dream or hallucination. You will argue that if you can experience it, so they are real...no thatīs not a proof. A dream itīs not real and i have many dreams...the same thing happens with obes.

 You must understand that for you (obers) itīs easy to ignore the importance of proofs, but for a newbie itīs very important. Besides that, with proofs, it will be much more easy to believe and consequently i will be a step way from getting an obe.

 

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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2004, 00:46:06 »

Hi All

   If you believe that dreams are`nt real then you`ve answered your own question.OBEs are not real either.Reality is in the eye of the beholder.It`s difficult to objectivly prove what is after all a purely subjective experience.I believe everyone has to draw their own conclusions based on what they KNOW to be true.

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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2004, 06:47:41 »

quote:
Originally posted by coral1

If you believe that dreams are`nt real then you`ve answered your own question.OBEs are not real either.


First off, you are supposedly able to see reality while obeing on the lowest level.  That's real enough for me, as opposed to a dream.

Secondly, supposedly, at least from what I've been reading, you can encounter real beings in this astral world, as opposed to figments of your imagination.  Knowledge of whether or not they are really real would also be helpful.

So unless obes are just realistic dreams, obe doesn't equal dream, so a non-real dream shouldn't mean non-real obe.

So yes, I'm interested in whether or not people have proved this to themselves as well.  Though I'll be doing my own reality checks soon enough anyways.
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2004, 10:57:13 »

Let me throw my 2-pence worth in...

Kazbadan:
 
quote:
I notice that the ones that donīt care about proofs are the experienced obers. But they think that we (newbies) are materialistic just because we donīt accept something at a first glance


This is a good point, but I don't think that they really think newbies are "materialistic". I'd guess that 95% of the experienced projectors you talk about shared your enthusiasm for "proof" at first....but I think the fact that they don't care for it anymore is telling us something.

 
quote:
Buda, the creator of one great religion, itīs the first one inviting people to study his teachings and try them in a pratical way, only them we will be able to judge them.


This is quite true with OBE's also. The only way I can truly learn is by experience, not reading about it here or in a book.

Makaveli:
 
quote:
I know that someone on this forum posted a while ago about successfully doing the card experiment. Just do a search on card trick.

Quite a while back, Patty mentioned she had limited success too...but even after getting some kind of proof, she wanted to further it by making the exercise more complicated to eliminate chance. Perhaps indicating that no matter how much proof a person is presented with, they will always believe what they want.

I reckon Jeff's point is fundamental here :
 
quote:
The point is that many people put a lot of burden on proving that these non-physical experiences are real by PHYSICAL standards.

Until physical science can measure non-physical events, we will struggle. Even if the card experiment were replicated 10 times in a row under strict observation, it would receive no more than a foot note in the papers because people prefer to stick to what they are comfortable with believing.

Mark



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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2004, 11:03:14 »

Kazbadan: I understand your point of view very well and basically do agree with you.
One exception though. The statement "dreams are not real" is kind of dangerous, meaning it's misleading. Do you know Lucid dreams? There's a smooth transition between: Dream->Lucid Dream->OBE->Near Death experiences->Waking Life. It's a question of awarness, I believe.
You can't just say dreams are not real. What does real mean anyway? Is a daydream real? You are canstantly driftimg away into fantasies during day, so is your waking life real? If you become Lucid in a dream you discover that the dream feels as real as waking Life. That's why I said, I want proof that it is possible to visit the physical world during OBE. I think thats a better question then asking wether OBE are real or not.
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2004, 12:26:33 »

I think that those that say "we don't need proof" or "we only need to prove it to ourselves" are a bit scared of the thruth. Lets face it...the evidence against it being "real" is very strong, while there is little evidence for it being more than a complex creation of the mind. Lets look at the facts:

1. Everything can change in the astral.
2. People go OBE and see something, then come back to their body to find that what they saw never happened.
3. People often meet others in the astral and the other person doesn't remember it.
4. Nothing can hurt you in the astral
5. The "vibes" of separation are exactly the same feeling you get when your nervous system shuts down. The rushing in the ears is the sound you hear when the nerves in your ears begin to shut down as well. This points to the fact that these exit sensations are nothing more than our body preparing us for sleep. It is a well known fact that almost all of the bodys nerves do shut down during sleep. We are just forcing ourselves to stay conscious of these sensations. It seems as though the vibes are not caused by our resonance changing or anything like that.

All of these are against the existance of a real OBE. Now for the evidence supporting them:

1. A few people have in fact been able to go to a remote room and identify an object, then come back to report. I have never heard of a case of this actually being a clear identification though. Usually a gold pot for example might be seen as a yellow ball. This evidence is very inconclusive and could be attributed to a lucky guess.
2. Robert Monroe was once under observation at a lab, and upon projection, the scientists saw a "heatwave" like distortion leave his body. This is probably the strongest evidence yet that some energy body left his physical body.

Thats about it for supportive evidence. I'm really trying to show both sides in this post, as it would be foolish to blindly believe either way. I know we all WANT astral projection to be real and not some fantasy, but don't let that get in the way of being logical about it. I myself am still on the fence about it. Yes it feels very solid and real, but the human mind is cabable of creating incredible thoughts and fantasies. I would love for it to be real, but I'm not going to lie to myself about the evidence as many people tend to do. I think what we need to do is more experimenting. I hear so many people come on and say "I went to the astral and had sex then flew in the clouds!". Woohoo. Put your valuable astral time into researching. See if you can 100% ID a card in another room over and over again. No need to prove it you say? Thats rather selfish IMO. There IS a need to prove it so that if it IS real, one day we might understand it and even have scientists legitimatly study it. We aren't going to go anywhere without an attitude of exploration and experimentation. You might have to put your beliefs on the line to do that, but the payoff is knowing the truth...favorable or not.
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2004, 13:17:26 »

Overdriven, i agree with you, we must avoid all the fantasy stuff and start explore the possibility of obes being real. The main reason for this is: I want to believe. I want obes to be real because it would be great, but itīs that same feeling that makes me wish to know more about the true reality of obes, because when someone believes in something, there is tendency to make and see things in a way that will force the reality to be the one that we want.

In other words if, for example, i believe in ufos and government conspiracy, i will see every single thing as a real proof for obes: "Bush wanna go to Mars...thats because he knows that aliens are real and he want to contact them~" or "hmmm, you saw a light in the sky? Thats an ufo, i knew it! itīs true!". Well, i just want to mean that with a strong (but not proven) belief in something, people tends to see the proofs that they want in every place.

For that reason, and because i know that iīm the first one wanting to believe in AP, i know that more than ever i must act with caution and look for real evidences. Evidences and proofs that are really good, not only for believers but even for sceptical ones.

A good proof itīs one that will embarace or twist with the mind of scientist....

Like Carl Sagan said once: "Extraordinary facts requires extraordinary proofs.".





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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2004, 13:17:52 »

Has anyone gone to the link referenced earlier in this topic ( http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html ) and done the reading?

If you are looking for proof, you are going to find far more there than here.

People who have accomplished OBE's appear less curious about 'proof' for a variety of good reasons.  

First of all, the first-hand experience of AP is VERY POWERFUL.  One feels that he is in 'reality' usually far more powerfully than when awake.  It is a singularly remarkable experience.  

Second of all, given the first-hand experience of the accomplished OBEer, he has a much more intimate knowledge of the problems and pressures involved with the question of 'proof'.   When out of body, You are in an altered state of consciousness.   The simple fact for me was that other than the one experience I recounted, trying to collect proof while out of body of a physical connection fell to the priority of simple curiosity.  Usually I had other (seemingly) far more important things on the agenda than satisfying simple curiosity.

Researching the subject, as in the link above, reveals PLENTY of evidence that AP is real.  Also, the work of psychics like John Edward, who has participated in studies which gives results which defies the odds, I find very convincing.   There really is something going on there, external to the body, which we do not fully understand.   Science demands quantizable phenomena to study, and the truth is we just do not know enough about AP to apply physical science to it - we may have to evolve our understanding of science in order to study it!

That being the case, I equate the general OBEer, including myself, to a preschooler playing in a sandbox - Having a great time, but really having no conception of the strange new world I find myself in.  Otherwise, why all the controversey?

The basic problem is this:  When APed, you ARE consciousness.  Just consciousness.  You can describe it under whatever technical terms you like - energy body, doppelganger, etc. - but the fact is that you are basically just a consciousness.  That being the case, you REALLY have to have your mental house clean to make any sense of it.  Most people have so much psychic BS careening through their minds at all times they can hardly make sense of regular consciousness - so the problem is one of controlling and differentiating the subjective parts of the mind.

It is my theory that to totally rid oneself of subjectivity would be to kill your consciousness - after all, you are your perspective.  Anyway, I do not think it is necessary.  I believe as long as you are aware of how Astral perception is generated, you can then properly translate it, which is precisely how it works.  Your consciousness is like a radio set picking up all this psychic energy, and your consciousness in turn translates this energy into an archtypeal abstraction which you can then conceptualize.

John Edward works this way, 'speaking' with the spirits by translating archetypal psychic symbols.

If the 'radio set' is not kept clear of noise, however, then what you 'receive' becomes more and more personl - more subjective - thus the difficulty in translating the RTZ.

I grant you, this is my theory, there is much work to do to really understand what is going on.  And even then, while in the astral you are subject to the spiritual agenda, which is good, because I would hate to see man become so knowledgable that they would one day be able to control your soul...

Just my 2 cents.
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OverDriven
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2004, 13:23:44 »

Kazbadan,
I absolutely agree. When people want to believe, they will take any occurance of coincidence and turn it into evidence in their favor. Thats the wrong way to go about research. The key is in the way you think. Instead of wanting to believe OBE is real, you need to want the TRUTH, whether its a big letdown or not.
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