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Author Topic: Proof  (Read 21771 times)
Tombo
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2004, 17:57:03 »

the near death side really is very interessting!
Here's a post on the card experiment: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1360&SearchTerms=card,trick
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2004, 18:13:37 »

Cool!  I wonder where Patty is now.
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2004, 18:13:37 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Kazbadan
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2004, 22:03:58 »

Well, that card experiment itīs a good start, but we must to do a little more than that. More card experiments are needed, and results without any doubt. If truth (the obes), them the numbers will overrun the probability of guessing a card normally.

And there is something about the relate: the deck has only red cards....that will shange for much less the probability of guessing the card.

Anyway, itīs a good start and an icentive for more people to try obing.

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kiauma
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2004, 22:41:28 »

You know, that brings up a good point.

What is the practical application of OBEs?

Of course, I am being sarcastic.  I am remarking on the western civilization's penchant for valuing only that with a definite use, or monetary advantage.  Yes, yes, more tests!  Then, I can really decide if it's worth doing.  [:p]  To put this in perspective, let me ask just what is the practical application of the universe?  [Wink]

OBE is a spiritual exercise, a spiritual experience.  It is a path of self-knowledge, a path to self-mastery.  Yes, I think it is a revealling glimpse of higher truths - but I think more important is it's potential to help you transform as a person.
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Tombo
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2004, 10:47:54 »

quote:
Originally posted by OverDriven


5. The "vibes" of separation are exactly the same feeling you get when your nervous system shuts down. The rushing in the ears is the sound you hear when the nerves in your ears begin to shut down as well. This points to the fact that these exit sensations are nothing more than our body preparing us for sleep. It is a well known fact that almost all of the bodys nerves do shut down during sleep. We are just forcing ourselves to stay conscious of these sensations. It seems as though the vibes are not caused by our resonance changing or anything like that.



I think this theorie is pretty weak[Tongue]

1. If your ear nerves would shut down during sleep your alarm clock wouldn't be able to wake you in the morning, wouldn't it?

2. If your body nerves would shut down, You wouldn't feel if somebody is chewing on your feet, which would be rather impractical. And which is obviously not true as well.

3. If I have a LD and I end it. I can feel a movement to my sleeping body, Which doesn't make much sense if the whole dream would only be in my brain. Then when I stay completely calm the vibrations start immediately, which doesn't fit with your theorie cause my nerves would already be shut down then, since I'm in the middle of sleep.

The vibrations remain a mysterie.
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2004, 10:47:54 »



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manuel
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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2004, 12:07:29 »

I think I will post some of my experiences here on such maters, when I first started having these experiences, I remember one very clear one, I went into my parents room, floated to the top of the ceiling, and looked down and saw my mother asleep on the bed by her self, I noticed that my father was not there, I also noticed how the sheets where moved where my father was previously, I noticed my mother was some what awake, but still lying in bed, now I get up after this experience go to there room and see pretty much the exact same thing, I had no prior knowledge on this either, the only thing was my mother was asleep but not up, I can only conclude in that mater that I saw the a few minutes into the "future" in fact, this did not hit me until later when I realised hey!..She was by her self, another experience that happened halfway during 2003, I got up out of my body, gently floated out the window, and saw my father to my right hand side of the yard, I noticed his clothes and his position, I only saw this for a fraction of the time, after this, I went through my neighbours house and noticed some things, all this was later verified afterwards, and yes, no prior knowledge on the clothes, his position, and what contained in the neighbours house (peeking over the fence confirmed this for me).

Another trip was to LA California to a close friend I know, I noticed clothes, bed, sleeping, etc, pretty much everything matched up excluded that I saw writing on her shirt when there was non, this plus other little experiences in seeing the correct weather etc.

Now the problem with "proof" is that the way we view physical reality, I want you to do some thing, for the next 10 seconds, look around your room, make observations, touch things, smell, hear etc. what did you just see/touch/smell etc? You experienced what your physical body did, for example what you saw, what you saw was light being reflected of objects, entering your eye, through the optic nerve it goes and into the brain to be processed, that the reality you see in waking life, don’t forget the dimensions, alternative realities, etc it goes on and on.

For those who are interested in NDE type out of body experiences, there was a very interesting one by a lady named Pam Raynolds I believe, she had a very complex brain surgery done, where they stoped her heart, all brain waves off, body temp lowered etc, and she saw things that all where verified, here is the url
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html
also get Robert Monroe's books, great stuff.
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Tombo
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2004, 10:08:11 »

That was the kind of posts I was hoping for! Thanks manuel!
Anybody else? Don't be shy now...
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OverDriven
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2004, 15:33:30 »

quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann


I think this theorie is pretty weak[Tongue]

1. If your ear nerves would shut down during sleep your alarm clock wouldn't be able to wake you in the morning, wouldn't it?

2. If your body nerves would shut down, You wouldn't feel if somebody is chewing on your feet, which would be rather impractical. And which is obviously not true as well.

3. If I have a LD and I end it. I can feel a movement to my sleeping body, Which doesn't make much sense if the whole dream would only be in my brain. Then when I stay completely calm the vibrations start immediately, which doesn't fit with your theorie cause my nerves would already be shut down then, since I'm in the middle of sleep.

The vibrations remain a mysterie.



So you think that a theory that your energy body resonance is changing and you are slipping from your body and becomeing a "ghost" in some other dimension is a more plausable thoery? Have you hear of Occam's razor? If not, find it and read it. What I stated was in fact not a theory at all...its a scientifically proven fact that the nervous system shuts down during sleep. This is what causes sleep paralysis...the brain can no longer fire impulses to the muscles. The reason you can wake up from an alarm clock or feel something on your toe is because the brain re-activates the nerves upon strong enough stimulation souch as sound or touch. As I stated in my original post, I would like OBE to be real too, and I think that it might be...but I will post all evidence supporting or not supporting it.
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kiauma
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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2004, 16:13:25 »

quote:
Have you hear of Occam's razor? If not, find it and read it.


Keep in mind that Occam was a devout religious man.  All Occam's razor says is that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.  To apply it here, you need to posit that the solution is the most familiar one (physical system), not necessary the simplest...

 
quote:
its a scientifically proven fact that the nervous system shuts down during sleep


True, but how does that translate to experiencing another reality?  If it is only internal, how is it that we all experience it simularly?  If that in turn is because the mind has somehow evolved this ability common to our species, why and how would it evolve?

If you think through the position that OBE is purely a mental fabrication, and try to fit all the facts to that theory, it starts to get much more complicated...

Also, it does not surprise me at all that science is finding physical systems that correspond to certain psychic experience ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/19/health/main522488.shtml ).  This explains how we experience them, but no their source.

An analogy is the computer, which processes information and accepts and displays the information in patterns recognizable to us.   All the systems are there for sensing this information, but that does not mean the internet is inside your computer.
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2004, 17:45:25 »

I will explain what i know about tha stuff of nerves getting shut down while asleep. This is a scientific (not from me) explanation.
When we get to sleep ( i mean, not going to bed, but really gettind into a sleep state), our nervous system will be partially shut down, causing paralysss on the body. The objective of such paralysis itīs (in a scientific view) to avoid our body of get doing the things that we do during dreams( and so you wonīt be walking, talking, etc, during sleep....but sometimes you do that!).

Before someone wake up, this protective system (that works in the spine in the form of an electrical signal) will shut down, so the paralysis too. Only after that (a few seconds) you will wake up.

Of course that many times we get awake some seconds before the system being shut down. While in that state of transition (you awake and the nervous system being inactive at a muscular level) you are paralised and conscious from the situation. Itīs not rare for me to have such paralysis and i think that i can use it for my benefit and try an astral projection! Doctors advise people to do not get worry because that paralysis itīs completly normal and not unhealthy. Itīs just a little delay on the nervous system.

While i was younger i didnīt knew what such paralysis was and i get scared and with fear of getting asleep. Now the paralysis itīs more rare (unfortunatly?!..AP) and i can handle with it normally. I just breath for some seconds, waiting for the disapearing of the paralysis.

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Makaveli
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2004, 19:25:54 »

I get SP all of the time and don’t mind it anymore.  The scientific explanation may be correct as to what happens in the body but it could never explain the experience that is taking place.  Any bodily processes that occur during sleep are really irrelevant to the nature of what is happening during an AP.  It only explains the processes in the body that help the mind get to the point of the experience.  If science were to explain projection it would have to somehow become measurable to the third person perspective which seems next to impossible.    

quote:
Have you hear of Occam's razor?


This is strictly a philosophical rule not a scientific law of any kind.  Usually what is scientifically discovered is in most cases for from simple.  You could say that the people who thought the earth was flat were using Occam's razor because it was the simplest explanation at the time.
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Tombo
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« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2004, 14:25:34 »

quote:
Originally posted by OverDriven
So you think that a theory that your energy body resonance is changing and you are slipping from your body and becomeing a "ghost" in some other dimension is a more plausable thoery? Have you hear of Occam's razor? If not, find it and read it. What I stated was in fact not a theory at all...its a scientifically proven fact that the nervous system shuts down during sleep. This is what causes sleep paralysis...the brain can no longer fire impulses to the muscles. The reason you can wake up from an alarm clock or feel something on your toe is because the brain re-activates the nerves upon strong enough stimulation souch as sound or touch. As I stated in my original post, I would like OBE to be real too, and I think that it might be...but I will post all evidence supporting or not supporting it.



I wonder if the ear nerves shuting down theorie is your own or if you have some bachup for that. Cause what I learned the ear nerves do not shut down at all, but the brain filters the sound in order to go to sleep. However the ear stays alert the whole night and whenever a strange noise occurs the brain can quickly start to normally operate. This also fits with experience very well. For example a lot of people including myself are able to hear their partner breath while having a LD!!!!
As I already told you when I induce An oBE from a LD I experience the vibrations without waking up! Now explain that...
It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$
Is it really so logic to believe in an materialistic world when almost all religions and "primitiv communities believe in  an existence independent from the brain?
Also you do completly ignore post like that done by manuel. Do you think he's lying or what is your reasoning behind that?
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« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2004, 16:23:26 »

quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann


It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$



Well I guess you didn't read my whole post. I am posting evidence both supporting and not supporting OBE. On the other hand, I have yet to see you post ANY evidence against it, and all your evidence has been for the support of real OBE's. So I'll turn your question back on you. Why have you only posted supporting evidence, and not even aknowledged evidence opposing your view? You seem almost threatened by the idea that OBE may not be real, hence your defensiveness about this topic. If you want to know my personal opinion, its that OBE's are in fact real experiences where consciousness leaves the body. But I will not rule out any evidence, and am not afraid of any evidence pointing in the other direction. I have my mind open to the possibility that we are imagining all of this, and hence am posting any evidence I can find.
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OverDriven
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« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2004, 16:27:10 »

Here is one article published in a medical journal that I found supporting OBE. Very interesting read...

http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles2.cfm?ID=50
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2004, 18:38:20 »

Now, letīs stop fighting and start to proof OBEīs. Not in a scientific manner, of course, but at leats in a way that it may proof something to other newbies in this forum.

My idea (i posted something similar in the past) itīs to make an experiment in wich there will be 2 main persons (and maybe other groups of other 2 persons,  to give consistency to the experiment), one of the persons will be the target. She(he) will put some kind of signal or something elevant in her(his) room, something strange and visible. The other one will be the projector.

This one will project, someday in a combined week (since itīs difficult to project in a certain day, itīs easier to project in a certain week) and will try to see the signal or, at least,try to describe all the relevant details that she(he) can remember. And details are not things like "I sar a bed" or "I saw wooden windows", because such things are very common everywhere (unless the amount of such details are huge- and if they match with reality...).

The results of the experiments will then be posted here.

This is just one ida to show or test AP for newbies in the forum. What do you think? Give ideas...

If no one answers to this idea i will repeat the post...   smiley

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kiauma
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« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2004, 19:36:09 »

I've only read some of the article OD, but it looks great!  Can't wait to read the rest later.

Thank you.
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« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2004, 19:43:35 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan

Now, letīs stop fighting and start to proof OBEīs. Not in a scientific manner, of course, but at leats in a way that it may proof something to other newbies in this forum.

My idea (i posted something similar in the past) itīs to make an experiment in wich there will be 2 main persons (and maybe other groups of other 2 persons,  to give consistency to the experiment), one of the persons will be the target. She(he) will put some kind of signal or something elevant in her(his) room, something strange and visible. The other one will be the projector.

This one will project, someday in a combined week (since itīs difficult to project in a certain day, itīs easier to project in a certain week) and will try to see the signal or, at least,try to describe all the relevant details that she(he) can remember. And details are not things like "I sar a bed" or "I saw wooden windows", because such things are very common everywhere (unless the amount of such details are huge- and if they match with reality...).

The results of the experiments will then be posted here.

This is just one ida to show or test AP for newbies in the forum. What do you think? Give ideas...

If no one answers to this idea i will repeat the post...   smiley



The only *problem* with your idea, Kazbadan, is that it only proves something to YOU and to the projector.  

Supposing someone took you up on your little test and succeeded....then you would come to this forum, telling everyone that it worked....and then we're right back in the same boat (eg. Now you have to prove that what you're saying is true and not made up).

What you propose has been done before.  I had someone successfully OBE to my room and decribe it in detail, proving to me and her that there was some sort of telepathy or extra-sensory perception available to those who project from their bodies.....but this little excursion cannot be proven to anyone else.  You have no idea of confirming that I'm telling the truth about this experiment, no matter how much I say otherwise.

See what I mean?
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Blackstream
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« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2004, 20:05:48 »

What could be done is to have one person make a video of their room, and make sure to look at all the details, put the video up in the video library (so that everyone can look at the video before the projection is done), then the one person (who would have to be trusted not to look at the video) projects in and looks at the room, makes a post with what he/she saw, then everyone verifies or doesn't verify via the video.

Of course, this only proves it to the people of the forum.  Any new visitors or anyone outside the forum will think fakery is done.

That's really about as good as you can get.  The only way to do better is to have scientists with a good reputation do the same thing and release their findings.  Then repeat several times and prove it again and again.  Then have a few more respected labs do the same thing. That'd be enough proof for all but the most hardcore disbelievers.  It'll never happen tho.
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« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2004, 21:52:07 »

quote:
Originally posted by Blackstream

What could be done is to have one person make a video of their room, and make sure to look at all the details, put the video up in the video library (so that everyone can look at the video before the projection is done), then the one person (who would have to be trusted not to look at the video) projects in and looks at the room, makes a post with what he/she saw, then everyone verifies or doesn't verify via the video.

Of course, this only proves it to the people of the forum.  Any new visitors or anyone outside the forum will think fakery is done.


Again, it all falls back on trust.....and those who don't want to believe will not believe, no matter how much you say you "trust" the results.

This is why it's extremely difficult to *prove* non-physical experiences with physically minded people.  

You say that the proof will just really be meaningful to those in this forum, but most of us in this forum don't need anymore proof than we already have, which is the proof based on the level of consciousness we have at the time of the projection.  There's just something about being that AWARE during the time of a projection which stretches beyond the boundry of needing further proof.

quote:

That's really about as good as you can get.  The only way to do better is to have scientists with a good reputation do the same thing and release their findings.  Then repeat several times and prove it again and again.  Then have a few more respected labs do the same thing. That'd be enough proof for all but the most hardcore disbelievers.  It'll never happen tho.



Getting scientists and labs involved is beyond the resources for those of us on this forum.  However, people like Robert Monroe have detailed their objective results with laboratory experiments, and people can read about them in their books.
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Makaveli
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« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2004, 22:27:08 »

It would probably be best for anyone wanting personal verification to meet somewhere like API in the astral.  My level of consciousness in my first experience and all the sensations that come on is proof enough for me.  From the sound of it real-time projections seem too hard to stay in for testing.  But maybe there are people who are good with them that may be able to do it, I had a real-time projection before but I couldn’t move at all since I was stuck floating a few feet above my body.    

One thing that highly suggests that OBEs occur outside of the brain is with the consistency of information brought back though all different cultures in NDEs.  If these experiences were hallucinations you would expect them to be shaped by people’s beliefs and expectations since they are interpreted as trips into the afterlife.  This doesn’t seem to be the case at all with NDES.  There are so many common aspects like the light, life review, the tunnel, void, etc.  An example of the information being consistent is with the life review.  Many people seem to have the idea of some kind of judgment from God in the afterlife where God will decide if you are good or bad.  Yet throughout different cultures and afterlife beliefs people who have the life review consistently experience self judgment of their actions rather than God or another being judging them.  Also many people believe in the existence of Satan in hell but out of all of the hellish NDEs there hasn’t been a reported account of someone seeing Satan.  This isn’t hard scientific evidence but it has been studied a lot and strongly suggests that it’s a real afterlife experience rather than the imagination of people who have these experiences.
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« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2004, 02:39:50 »

The problem with proofs is that you have to prove in terms of something else which you already know to be true. Since there has been little scientific investigation into anything like this, that is a little hard.
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« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2004, 03:16:24 »

smiley
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« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2004, 03:32:05 »

I saw that, but how far have the scientists really got into the subject? I would say nowhere.
It seems as though they are only studying this as a sideline. They know that their experiment is going to take years to get anywhere, but have set it up none the less to make it look like they are doing something.
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2004, 17:18:19 »

Well, iīm trying to give ideas. Iīm waiting for more.

I thinked a little too in something that someone here has sayed: the experience it would proof only something to me or the ones involved in the experiment. We should try to overpass that situation in some manner.

Give ideas...

Now, what about i give some dollars (letīs say something like 50 dollars at least) to the first ober able to see all  ( iīm saying all, not almost all) the numbers that i will put in the top of my book-shelf (itīs in my room)? Even myself will not see the numbers. If someone accept this just email me.

PS- this is not a scientific idea but at least will proof something to me and...i will really give the money (itīs not a lot, but... itīs money  [Smiley])
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« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2004, 17:39:21 »

quote:
Originally posted by OverDriven

quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann


It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$



Well I guess you didn't read my whole post. I am posting evidence both supporting and not supporting OBE. On the other hand, I have yet to see you post ANY evidence against it, and all your evidence has been for the support of real OBE's. So I'll turn your question back on you. Why have you only posted supporting evidence, and not even aknowledged evidence opposing your view? You seem almost threatened by the idea that OBE may not be real, hence your defensiveness about this topic. If you want to know my personal opinion, its that OBE's are in fact real experiences where consciousness leaves the body. But I will not rule out any evidence, and am not afraid of any evidence pointing in the other direction. I have my mind open to the possibility that we are imagining all of this, and hence am posting any evidence I can find.



It wasn't my goal to show both sides of the phenomenon but to search for proofes. Your critics are welcome though.
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