Proof Of OBE - and/or - How to Win 1 Milion $

[Frank]

There are those people "out there" who have to grow-up and realise that what we early explorers are involved with here is a new and emerging science.

10 years ago I dared not talk about my "experiences" through threat of ridicule. Now, I can converse with people over the Internet in a civilised way. Which comes as something of a relief, to be honest, because the thought that I might be "insane" crossed my mind many times in the early years.

Those who totally dismiss the idea of the Astral are very sad people, in my opinion. Perhaps they are just "materialists" so limited in their thinking that they can only relate to anything in terms of money.

But they are a transient breed.

Just like those who believed the world was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth: no-one can convince these people any different. So why should I (for one) waste my valuable time trying? They will just die off naturally in any event.

But don't get me wrong: I would love to take this guy's million dollars and burn the whole lot in front of him.

However, that would just leave me standing in some kind of emotive revenge-scenario that, knowing about how to visit the Astral, and after having had hundreds of Astral experiences, teaches you plainly and clearly to avoid at all costs.

Fact is, you come across these kinds of people, in various inhabited regions of the Astral, all the time: people who continue to act out all their various earth-bound "habits". Only thing is, they don't actually realise that they are Physically dead.

Some of them just look at you with a confused stare. Others blank you completely because they are so totally engaged in some monotonous routine; that you know they will be continuing for maybe a thousand or so years of "earth time".

This Randy the Amazing bloke will, eventually, die and (most likely) continue the very same thing in the Astral worlds. He will attract a "crowd" and issue the very same "challenges". However, in a Physical sense, he will be dead... yet won't realise it.

Please understand there are vast areas of the Astral, packed full of such people.

Yours,
Frank  
 

[Atlas]

>>thats as good a reason as any for those of us who OBE to prove it<<

Yes it is. In my opinion, pick a reason, as there are many reasons to prove OBE.

>>Ive tried it for two years in the past and failed...but Im not going to do the "susan blackmore" thing and reject it cause it cant be proved right now<<

I really like your post Michael but this brings up another point. You've tried for two years and failed to prove OBE (I respect your honesty). Couldn't it be *POSSIBLE* that what you think is going on is NOT going on? I know how real it seems...but my dreams seem completely and totally real too, when I'm in them. I guess what I am thinking is that it isnt possible to prove that an OBE is NOT a lucid dream experience, UNLESS you can get information you previously did not know about the real world through the OBE, that (in my opinion) would have to be its defining characteristic. And that's all I'm asking for as proof really. Come read my number!

>>but she is not wrong in claiming the burden of proof is on us who say we have experienced OBE's to prove it or at least be prepared to attempt to prove it..the objections to doing this or at least be prepared to do this are increasingly hollow sounding <<

I agree.

Atlas

[Atlas]

>>There are those people "out there" who have to grow-up and realise that what we early explorers are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

I agree that that may be true Frank, but it doesn't make this "new" science exempt from things like proof and logic and reason.

>>Just like those who believed the world was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth: no-one can convince these people any different. So why should I (for one) waste my valuable time trying?<<

Well, when people refused to believe the world was round and that the earth revolved around the sun, the scientific method was still relatively new and not understood by people. At this stage, a lot of people are familiar with and respect the scientific process, so comparing todays world with Galileo's isn't quite accurate. More people respect what science is trying to tell them today than they did then.

I also think that you are assuming that "people who don't believe in OBEs never will and are just stubborn skeptics who will never change no matter what I do". I don't think that's true. Yes there are people like that, but I don't think it's the majority. Me for instance. All I want is a little proof.

I am torn between the sincerity of people like yourself and Robert Bruce, and the obvious lack of proof combined with completely inconsistent stories and accounts in this field.

You know, here's something, I will give ANYONE here FIFTY chances, over as spread out a period as s/he wants, to come read a 5 or 6 digit number on my front door. If someone gets it right just ONE time, I will accept that as proof, since even with 50 chances it's close to impossible to guess a 6 digit number.
You wanna bet how many takers I'll have? My bet is ZERO

Atlas

[Rob]

Interesting discussion
Frank - something you said really caught my eye:

quote: Now, I don't need a 10 billion dollar research facility to find this out, because I can project within these finer states and discover them for free. Just as we have the Physical world composed of Atoms, we have the realms made of a much finer matter than Atoms we call the Astral. As I say, scientists are only now beginning to discover the existence of these finer particles of matter.

Could you describe precisely what you have seen?? I would love to hear more about this. I remember I asked a projector once who had done this and she said it was like small universes with no end to how tiny you could get. But I wonder how you would "see" an electron since it is "travelling" so immensely fast.

[Mankind]

Everyone here has offered excellent arguments against that fraud the "amazing" Randi.  But there's one simple argument that even atheists would have to agree to:  the whole idea of nobody ever collecting a million dollar challenge "proving" a psychic phenomenon is "proof"  that such phenomina don't exist, is laughably absurd.  This is especially true with a guy who's entire career is dependent on proving such phonomena false! Oh yeah, I can certainly imagine this guy just waiting to sign a check for a million dollars!

[Pe-]

Dear Inguma, and others,

Do not forget that time-space is only an illusion. It makes the learning system successful, and faster. By the way, I think that the person who can have obe at will does not need any proof. OBE is not for the physical world. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>
Even if you would project for the x billion-trillion money, when you start having them, you will be not interested in any way in the money. Just try it out! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Take care, Pe-

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Inguma:
Interesting discussion
Frank - something you said really caught my eye:

quote: Now, I don't need a 10 billion dollar research facility to find this out, because I can project within these finer states and discover them for free. Just as we have the Physical world composed of Atoms, we have the realms made of a much finer matter than Atoms we call the Astral. As I say, scientists are only now beginning to discover the existence of these finer particles of matter.

Could you describe precisely what you have seen?? I would love to hear more about this. I remember I asked a projector once who had done this and she said it was like small universes with no end to how tiny you could get. But I wonder how you would "see" an electron since it is "travelling" so immensely fast.

I'm not exactly sure if I am seeing electrons or atoms or whatever particles, but I've come across various "energy areas" on the Astral that contain all kinds of energy-particles. It's something I've yet to work out.

You see them quite easily by matching their speed and direction. Imagine if you were standing by the roadside and a car came past you at 500 mph. You just see a fleeting blur. If it made several passes at ever increasing speed there would come a point where you wouldn't see it at all. But if you were alongside the car, matching its speed and direction, no matter how fast it was travelling, relative to the ground, the car would appear stationary to yourself.

I've travelled along and within huge light-beams and I've seen what look like individual photons that make up the beam as a whole. They appear as a suspended ball of energy, each giving off a certain degree of light and each spaced about 30cm, or so, apart. Thus forming a huge 3D grid. Some get thrown off and form a whirling kind of light cloud. When you look at these particles some are different shapes and can be multi-coloured.

As you travel through them you can feel an electrical charge that gives a tickling sensation. As I say, I'm not exactly sure what these are. If I fly out of them and view the whole thing from a few thousand miles away it looks like a huge beam of light.

Yours,
Frank

[Mobius]

Hi guys

I think Pe makes a good point about materialism.Most of the human inhabitants of this planet have to become part of the monetary system in one way or another & we seem to be reaching a saturation point very soon.Noticed the rediculously high wages of company CEO's in proportion to the average wage earner?Insurance pay outs in the millions for petty things,banks that have billion to trillion dollar turn overs everyyear?Third world countries that have the same bank balances as a single person walking the streets in a first world country.Because they are dumb? no,because of their religion or colour or race? no, because the ones who have the money,the stuff that virtually ensures success,don't want to change that,they want the money to stay in power utilities,defence utilities, & manipulate where the attention of the majority of the planet will be focused on,while they eat your pants off your arse/butt & don't even turn in their sleep at night in worry.Most people know that money will help a great deal in an individuals success & that of their offspring.Natural intelligence is another,but hard in a third world country to succeed.The other advantage a parent can give a child is to teach them from birth,everything,music, speaking,reading,languages.

The ethical issues behind genetically altering your child to have a high IQ are way behind the scientific realities that are taking place right now,money is a big issue here for all,will only the exceedingly rich be able to have babies with no genetic defects & high IQ? while the poor debate the ethics & morals,a generation later we will be living in the movie GATTACA.The US government has allready declassified the RV program files & admitted there is something to this idea that every individual has some psychic ability & can be taught.Thus the flood of people into the new age & metaphysical market,the next generation will have psychic abilities as a pre-requisite on job applications.Like Frank said,10 to 15 years ago you just couldn't talk about this stuff,now there are people coming out of the wood work.

The basic dilemma we are faced with here is MONEY,while it exists,there will always be trouble & manipulation.I guess the rebuttal from the top 10 richest on our planet would be ;sure you can't take any possessions with you when you die,but you can make sure your children will be exceedingly wealthy too,at the expense of millions.We all know intrinsically that money is wrong,it stifles life.

Atlas you didn't get back to me on what OBE books,techniques or meditations you have tried in your attempts to have OBE's & whether you have a journal & hemi sync? I have taught people guitar & karate in the past & the majority buy a guitar or learn a technique or two & then say "why can't I play as good as you?" "Iv'e bought a guitar or uniform why can't I kick arse/butt?" when no effort whatsoever has been put into actually practicing it & not talking about it.Please tell me Atlas as it would be a shame to hear you have no books,no journal,don't meditate,stretch,try NEW, or some other technique? or you work for the government in your spare time.

Good journeys matee's

Mobius

[michael]

Atlas..I agree with your points as well..especiallythe bit where you state that there could be another explanation for lucid dreams and OBE's...I mentioned susan blackmore..as you know she started off the complete believer after smoking hash and having a stunning obe...the only one shes had...but she grew to reject it as "really" being out of the body since she saw roof tuiles which were differnet coloured than they really were...fair enough..Ive had a few real time projections where i saw absolutely no distortion in perception of the material world...only differnece i noted was a slight hazy outline....I konw for sure i really was out of my physical body which i saw...on the other hand ive projected many times into the "astral world"..where there were all sorts of amazing perceptions..totally conscious in myself...andparadoxically the reason i can convince myself if nobody else..is that..like sylvan muldoon I have no particular desire for "eternal life"..as he says "life is a curse"..he wished death was eternal oblivion...thing is I know there are spiritual beings..Ive seen them under obe and other clairvoyant situations..amazing stuff....and as the saying goes the universe and the world and its auntie can tell me or try to convince me that I was hallucinating and i could not in all sincerity accept that point of view..ultimately the astral body or whatver one likes to call it is "unreal" but at my stage of development the experience was totally real and fully conscious....i hate to accept the fact but it is possible that OBE's are somehow monitored by the "spiritual world" etc..I do not like to think that my excursions when they happen on average once every 5 weeks or so are somehow done under the auspicies of the spiritual world or guides but on my reading ( eg Steiner in his "Theosophy") I think that is a possible scnario and also why for its own reason the spiritual world may not want this to be proven..I hate to acknowledge that pissibility since it sounds so pat..convenient and a cop out..but it might just be a possible reason neverthless..but this does not stop me trying to develop my obe abilitiies..sheer laziness is the only reason i can offer as to why in two years attempts with the Institute of Psycophysical research in oxford in the 1960's is why it didnt happen....develping the chakras and raising consciousness is my personal imperative which i have not succeeded with very much at all...but i do belive that in some sort of evolutionary sense maybe in the next 100 yeasr more folk may indeed be able to prove it using a simple random target system...

[Mobius]

Hey

I,ve heard many explanations on why we sleep,dream & have OBE's,including one a few days ago that said "Once we fall asleep,every 90 mins an electrical discharge is sent through the brain,these electrical impulses are basically messages from all around our body,sending in their gathered details & recordings of the day,these are displayed visually in our brains in the form of dreams,which are displayed in a metaphorical sense."

Then there is Freuds theories that it is all to do with sex,that one I find hard to swallow.Lucid dreams & OBE's are different I believe,sure you can have a dream where you can see your body,but what about hearing things people say in another room,or seeing what they are doing,numerous NDE cases in hospitals have reported seeing & hearing what the doctors were talking about.Clairvoyance? Clairaudience? OBE? whats the answer?

Some very talented remote viewers like Joe McMoneagle,not only went to TMI regularly,but married a monroe.He often stated in interviews that sometimes he left his body for retrievals of info & psychic ability was a definate advantage.Every single one of them despite all their success CANNOT see numbers very well,sure shapes & scenery,but numbers were deemed by all an extremely hard target,2 or 3 numbers yes but 5 or 6 no.I suspect most skeptics have read this also & rely on that one sticking point for proof.The thing is who cares what they think,you guys obviously think there is something to it otherwise you wouldn't be in here.Why not today decide that the whole thing is a lie & a hoax (OBE's) & never concede the idea again in your life.Get on with things in the physical & even though you believe that microwaves cook your food,have you seen them exactly? they mustn't exist if you can't see them,you can't see the energy's inside our bodies either,so that can't be a possibilty.

The reason you don't abandon it,is because you KNOW there is something to it.As ancient an art it is,it's still only just come onto the public market 5 to 10 years ago.So you can forget about it for now & then watch as others pass you by,simply becaused they tried.

Good journeys guys

Mobius

[Atlas]

>>I think Pe makes a good point about materialism.Most of the human inhabitants of this planet have to become part of the monetary system in one way or another & we seem to be reaching a saturation point very soon.Noticed the rediculously high wages of company CEO's in proportion to the average wage earner?Insurance pay outs in the millions for petty things,banks that have billion to trillion dollar turn overs everyyear?Third world countries that have the same bank balances as a single person walking the streets in a first world country.Because they are dumb? no,because of their religion or colour or race? no, because the ones who have the money,the stuff that virtually ensures success,don't want to change that,they want the money to stay in power utilities,defence utilities, & manipulate where the attention of the majority of the planet will be focused on,while they eat your pants off your arse/butt & don't even turn in their sleep at night in worry.Most people know that money will help a great deal in an individuals success & that of their offspring.Natural intelligence is another,but hard in a third world country to succeed.The other advantage a parent can give a child is to teach them from birth,everything,music, speaking,reading,languages.


The basic dilemma we are faced with here is MONEY,while it exists,there will always be trouble & manipulation.I guess the rebuttal from the top 10 richest on our planet would be ;sure you can't take any possessions with you when you die,but you can make sure your children will be exceedingly wealthy too,at the expense of millions.We all know intrinsically that money is wrong,it stifles life.
<<

Hmmm...these sound like arguments I've heard before....by a guy named Karl Marx. And we already tried getting rid of the ultimate "evil" capital...that was called communism and millions of people were tortured terrorized and killed in that wonderful system.
I love money. In a free society, it is the symbol of exchange and ideas between people, with an absence of physical force. The reason a CEO makes a "ridiculously" more amount of money compared to the average worker is that he has a "ridiculously" more difficult job. The reason third world countries are so poor is because they do not have a system that honors individual rights, property rights, or encourages business and entrepreneurship. They are usually ran by warlords and dictators. But we are getting deeper into political philosophy here and I suggest we don't or this thread won't be 4 pages long it will be 40

>>Atlas you didn't get back to me on what OBE books,techniques or meditations you have tried in your attempts to have OBE's & whether you have a journal & hemi sync? I have taught people guitar & karate in the past & the majority buy a guitar or learn a technique or two & then say "why can't I play as good as you?" "Iv'e bought a guitar or uniform why can't I kick arse/butt?" when no effort whatsoever has been put into actually practicing it & not talking about it.Please tell me Atlas as it would be a shame to hear you have no books,no journal,don't meditate,stretch,try NEW, or some other technique? or you work for the government in your spare time.<<

I have probably about 20 books related to teaching psychic skills. I have Monroe's first two books, and Astral Dynamics among them. I've done NEW, I've tried the rope technique. I play instruments also and have a black belt so it's not that I dont know how to work toward things and I understand that skills don't just appear out of thin air. I've had some "questionable" experiences but nothing i would call a success. I've tried hemi-sync. It was fun to listen to, but didnt trigger any OBEs or anything.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

[Atlas]

>>Every single one of them despite all their success CANNOT see numbers very well,sure shapes & scenery,but numbers were deemed by all an extremely hard target,2 or 3 numbers yes but 5 or 6 no.I suspect most skeptics have read this also & rely on that one sticking point for proof<<

What if I make them big? numbers are just shapes really. They can't see shapes? even if they are big?

>>Why not today decide that the whole thing is a lie & a hoax (OBE's) & never concede the idea again in your life.Get on with things in the physical & even though you believe that microwaves cook your food,have you seen them exactly? they mustn't exist if you can't see them<<

I disagree...there are many experiments you can do to prove the existence of microwaves. I'm not taking issue with obe's because I can't see them and hear them, its because there is NO EVIDENCE. None. No evidence of them occuring or of any effects. And I don't believe that there is ANYTHING wrong with demanding proof or evidence of something to accept it. Just as I'm not going to believe in time travel, until it is proven and repeatable.

>>The reason you don't abandon it,is because you KNOW there is something to it<<

The reason I don't abandon it is not because I KNOW it is true, since I do not, but because I WANT it to be true, because OBEs sure sound like fun and I'd love to have them.

Atlas

[kifyre]

quote:Originally posted by Atlas:
I'm not taking issue with obe's because I can't see them and hear them, its because there is NO EVIDENCE. None. No evidence of them occuring or of any effects.

That's not really true, in my understanding.

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter16.html

http://www.mach1audio.com/out-of-body/techniques/survey_results.htm

I'd say extreme commonality of experience throughout the ages is a pretty good indicator of reality. And there have been experiments where people have obtained objective information from an obe. The downloadable (non-summary) version of the first link should have some information.

Mark

[Atlas]

>>I'd say extreme commonality of experience throughout the ages is a pretty good indicator of reality<<

Ok...the problem is that I see the experiences as being NOT COMMON with each other. If you read Monroe, and then you read Bruce, they are TOTALLY different, except when it comes to the projection reflex itself which is pretty similar. For example,
BRUCE
-melting hands
-astral wind
-akashic records
-astral "skins"

MONROE
-loosh

Bruce makes no mention of "loosh" and Monroe makes no mention of any of Bruce's "hallmark" experiences. Bruce makes it seem that most of those things you can count on experiencing if you are truly OBE. Loosh was pretty much the huge discovery of Monroe's adventures and if I remember correctly, the prime mover of the entire earth experience basically, and yet Bruce never mentions it once. Odd.

Atlas

[Frank]

As I have said before a number of times, what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science. As such, we have not yet evolved a common system of labelling. But it will come, given time.

The problem you have when searching for commonality, Atlas, is you have no experience of projection. As such, you views come across to me as being very one sided. When I read RB's and RM's work they have quite a lot in common, both with each other and with my own experiences.

I read Ultimate Journey for the first time the other week. I'm about halfway through and it is mind-blowing the extent to which Monroe's experiences run parallel to my own. However, had I read that book 15 years ago (assuming it had been published then) I'd be struggling to make sense of it all.

That's basically the position you are in right now. Well, I suppose that's the position the majority of people are in when they first try and project.

Yours,
Frank

[Mobius]

Ok Atlas

I can see that I am wasting energy on you,as even if you are given examples,you will either misquote them,take them out of context or make up something,just to ignore what is being said.We should not get into political philosophy like you said,but it seems you havn't gone back into any of the previous threads,as you would have found,that I don't believe in communism or any ism,especially capatilism.I wont go down the path of telling you how the stock market works,as I can sense you are a fairly defensive & patriotic sort & will choose to ignore what is going on around you.I have the same opinion of my own governments politicians & the system we are part of here
in Australia.

You love money you say? It is the symbol of exchange & ideas,with the absence of physical force? Where did you get that from,a US government text book? Or inside the set of the truman show part 2? Once again,you choose to be ignorant.

We have also discussed many times in this & other forums here about the various terminologies used in Monroes,Bruce's, & others books & came to the conclusion that they were all talking about much the same thing,but had their own terms which made sense to them like Focus levels,Projectable doubles,the training ground as used by Frank,higher & lower astral realms etc.You have to look past the terminology & take what you can out of them,give the exercises all new names if you have to,but the main thing is to practice the exercises or techniques & not get bogged down by the terminology.

If you ask me Bruce is the first one to just simply say energy or NEW,instead of constant references to loosh,kundalini,prana etc he just says storage centres for energy  & energy paths etc.,how simple,the OBE book with contemporary terms & meanings.Most of it seems to be an elaboration on eastern concepts & picks the best of everything.I wish I knew nothing about OBE's & read that book first,as it would make so much more sense to a novice who has never heard any other terms.

http://www.crystalinks.com/kundalini.html

Atlas you pulled a quote from me & misquoted it,you even put it above your own writing.Like I said "The reason you don't abandon it,is beacause you KNOW there is something to it" not "because you KNOW it's true".I think it is obvious you don't think it's true,which leaves 2 possibilities.
1) Like I said you KNOW there is something to it,maybe you have had some experience with metaphysical concepts personally,but not yet OBE's,so you hope someone will somehow give it to you.
or
2)You are an employee of the amazing randi or some other debunker or science fraternity that has very strict beliefs & agenda's to push.

Good journeys

Mobius

[Atlas]

>>I wont go down the path of telling you how the stock market works<<

I am a stock trader by profession so I don't think I require your tutelage.

>>I can sense you are a fairly defensive & patriotic sort & will choose to ignore what is going on around you<<

I ignore nothing. Yes I defend capitalism when it is attacked because it not clearly understood 99% of the time. Capitalism is a system of voluntary exchange to mutual benefit, BARRING physical force. EVERY other system consists of one group of people stealing/extorting from another.It is the system of a free people.

If you look at what I said, I did not call you a communist. What I said is that the idea that capital is responsible for oppression/(choose your evil) around the world is one of the main ideas behind communism

>>2)You are an employee of the amazing randi or some other debunker or science fraternity that has very strict beliefs & agenda's to push.<<

Haha...the truth comes out now doesn't it? One person desiring proof and reason...that's all, and that must make me a debunker, member of a science fraternity with an agenda to push. My beliefs are NOT strict. I will believe anything if it can be proved. I will believe there are ancient ruins on the moon if you can just show me some evidence. That's all.
But ...apparently this field is "above" proof. I knew I would be attacked sooner or later.

By the way I did not misquote you. Anything you say is in >><<. what's below it is MY response.

I looked back at my last few posts and I dont  know what it was I said that made you so angry and decide to start accusing me, but whatever It was I apologize. I can see this is starting to get under your skin, so I'll give you the last word and we'll call this thread closed.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

[Atlas]

>>As I have said before a number of times, what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

You have said that and I totally agree that it might be, but as I've said and I think you'll agree, this new science is not above the scientific method. You have said that it may be proved in the future and that might be the case also, but as it stands right now, I see no reason to believe, based on EVIDENCE here, that the OBE is not a vivid lucid dream. I totally understand your position, and I think you understand mine. Only you know that you are having an OBE, and that it is NOT a dream. There's no way to prove it to anyone except in the ways we've stated.

Thanks for the post

Atlas

[Mobius]

Wow,you are a stock trader by proffesion Atlas,but somehow you don't see how it can be manipulated by the guys at the top.Just because they don't get their hands dirty doesn't mean they are somehow respectable civilised people.Not sure if you were watching the stocks around the time of sept 11,but surely you must remember that huge amounts of stocks were sold in the airline companies before they crashed,hmmm.Then there was billion dollar trades in options in Lockheed Martin & other US military stocks,all before sept 11.

At the time of the gulf war,exactly the same thing & guess who got the contracts to clean up the mess afterwards & rebuild? companies owned by the same ones who have the majority of shares in the defence stocks.
Nice little money maker that one eh? I trade myself once a week or so & I'm not a stock broker,but I do check all the way back into who the companies majority shareholders & what other interests they have,surely you can't just ignore the majority US push for total control of oil around the world & drugs too.

Every time you post you display your ignorance,I just cannot believe what I am reading,you seem to be fairly well educated Atlas & write well,but I get the feeling you just dismiss anything said about America & think that somehow I feel you are personally resposible for it all.We will get nowhere if you wont look at reality,choosing "ignorance is bliss" because you are in America.I know you wont bother to check back on my feelings for America so I will summarize here, I love America & have many friends over there.You are just being patriotic & will twist anything I say to make it sound like an attack on America & you.

I just can't believe that statement,"Every other system consists of one group stealing or extorting from each other" Now I know what I am dealing with here,you don't think that happens in America or any other Capatilist country?Ok,I will not burst your bubble.

Heres some more food for thought for skeptics.

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter26.html

http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/index.html

Good journeys

Mobius

[michael]

Hi Atlas..just in passing i would note that the fact that I am an admirer of ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro , Che Guevera and think Joe SDtalin had a lot of good points doesnt make me a communist or materialist nor necessarily and admirer of the UK and USA foreign policies in the middle east etc...the main point in which i totally agree with you is that my political predilictions have no bearing on my ability to OBE....and I totally  respect and indeed admire your empirical attitude..ie you havent experienced the OBE but are ttoally open minded as to its factual possibility..in my case if i hadnt expereinced it i would tend to accept the susan blackmore/sceptical point of view more readily.But having had my own empirical proof I am only keen now as indicated earlier to develop my skills in order to attempt..again,..to achieve public proof...please keep attempting it..itmay very well happen..can I point you to an excellent site IIPC ..if you dont already know it.....great courses etc in obe training...

[Grenade01]

You crazy kids and your politics.
LoL why is this thread still active

*/me Beats the dead deer with a bat*


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/You must try some of my purple berries.
I've been eating them for 6 or 7 weeks now, haven't got sick once.
Prolly keep us both alive.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Atlas:
>>As I have said before a number of times, what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

You have said that and I totally agree that it might be, but as I've said and I think you'll agree, this new science is not above the scientific method. You have said that it may be proved in the future and that might be the case also, but as it stands right now, I see no reason to believe, based on EVIDENCE here, that the OBE is not a vivid lucid dream. I totally understand your position, and I think you understand mine. Only you know that you are having an OBE, and that it is NOT a dream. There's no way to prove it to anyone except in the ways we've stated.

Thanks for the post

Atlas

Yes, I understand where you are coming from.  

Also, as you pointed out likewise, with Mobius, if I may say with respect that I am a scientist and there is no "might be" about it. As such, it couldn't possibly be "above the scientific method". But look around you and see how that is beginning to happen.  

At last, as far as I am concerned, this whole "thing" is being taken out of the hands of the mystics and steadily being observed and experienced by those who have a more scientific-based sense of reasoning. Robert Monroe was the forerunner of this.

Myself, I have inadvertently been "following in his footsteps" without realising it. I have only recently read Far and Ultimate Journey(s) and, while Monroe has gone much deeper into the Astral than I have thus far, I am gobsmacked at how our Astral experiences have so much in common. But, then again, he observes from basically the same viewpoint as myself.

I've said before that negotiating the real-time zone is very tricky for me. I only recently learned how to project into it after having had hundreds of previous Astral experiences. But, as an on-going experiment, I'm prepared to make it my goal to try and visit your home, or some big landmark or other (that you are familiar with in your vicinity) and I will try and project to that place and tell you something about it that I couldn't have known normally.

Okay, it's not "proof" in the scientific sense of the word, i.e. a conclusion that has been derived from repeatedly successful double-blind testing. But it will be a start. Plus, it will give me a more definite goal to work towards.

You never know, it might work. Then, perhaps we can move on and perform some more advanced tests: like reading figures pinned on your front door, or something. I'm not sure whether I can do it, and I am unsure as to how long it will take. But I am willing to give it a go.

Let me know what you think.

Yours,
Frank  

[Rob]

Excellent, we have a do-er!

Frank would it help, do you think, if to try this you and Mobius or whoever could agree on a time and date (maybe a regular slot), and at that time Mobius could send out a strong telepathic signal to you? Would this help you find the place?
Just a thought....

and please guys - chill out!

"My [tax cut] plan is realistic because it avoids meaningless 15-year projections."
"It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet."
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question"
"It's going to require numerous IRA agents."
--On Gore's tax plan,

I mean come on! When you have George Bush as president, well you gotta either get very serious or just laugh. Or both. Wonderful projections of different political system mean squat while you have people like that running countries and, more importantly, people letting and even loving it. Not sure what relevance that has but the quotes made me laught, just had to say something....lol

[Mobius]

G,day Inguma

Yes I agree,we & I should chill out a bit & I apologise Atlas if I offended you or anyone else.I will just let things be & each to their own,it's just that here in Australia,we are very passionate about hating our politicians & even worse the people that tell the politicians what to do,must be a throwback from our convict days & we have the tall poppy syndrome real bad,that is believing anyone who is exceedingly rich arrived at that point by dubious means.


On the subject of the OBE's,well,it can & could work,a telepathic link up or an OBE meeting & I am willing to try with OBE'ers with a bit of experience & are open to the idea.At present I am very time poor,have essay's due & exams over the next 3 weeks,but after this semester I am keen.

Peace all & please try to do good on your journey's

Mobius

[antagonist]

astral projection or remote viewing as it has been called
has been used a lot in the cold war by both the Americans and
the Russians to discover hidden bunkers.