Robert Bruce is confusing and contradicts himself!

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goldenroses

Hi there, What Tha Phak,
I am not as experienced as Robert Bruce, but I have 25 years of reading, studying AND direct personal experiences to fall back on, some of which are similar to his.I agree with him on the issue of the only body there is...is that of the one you imagine there to be.I have also had some experiences where I seem to have no tangible body at all, but I can still see, hear and speak.And there have been others where I have some sort of body similar in shape to the physical body but without the solidity.But I have never ever experienced any kind of pain at all while projecting.How about trying a little direct personal experience yourself? If you have read so much, surely you must know how to astrally project yourself by now.

Tomasz

I am not as wise and experienced in OBE as Robert Bruce but according to my experience – mostly real time OBE – there is no contradiction in Robert Bruce explanations. I discovered the same, that my body is just mind projection. When you're out of body, then whatever mind activity causes disturbances and problems. I know that I am a point of consciousness, but I act as if I were the body. The source of pain is exactly the same. Pain is not apparent from the body – if you have (or think you have) the body, then pain is only a consequence, because it is the only source of pain – the body. I know that you may still say that it is the body that feels the pain via the Silver Cord. I don't know how to prove that it is not the case but the evidence is that any signal from the body via the Silver Cord causes immediate return and awakening.
My comment is as follow. One can never understand planes beyond physical, because our understanding is physical. In OBE you're in the realm of pure mind, so whatever you experience, originates from the mind. Now you try to create a picture of other planes in your mind and see contradictions. But contradiction is in a picture and not in Robert Bruce words. That picture is simply assembled with not proper pieces. They are your concepts and ideas derived from your physical experience. They simply don't suit. When I had my first OBE I didn't know what was that, but it was something that made my mind unable to understand. At the same time it was something that made my heart more open to accept, even things which I don't understand.
Tomasz

Adrian

Greetings,

The true Astral body is actually the Astra-Mental body. When people pass from physical world upon physical death, they then move to the Astral realms with their Astra-Mental body - a body which is very real, and very perceievable by all Astral residents as a copy, or often a younger version, of the physical body.

To Astral residents and those who can partake in true and complete Astral separation (which is not the same as OBE or phasing), eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent.

The differences arise from the many variations of Astral travel while we still live in the physical world. OBE is a projection of a copy of the mind into an etheric double for example. Phasing is a projection of consciousness to the Astral body, Mental projection is a projection of the Mental body without the Astral body, and Lucid Dreaming is something else again [:)]

So it depends on how you are visiting the Astral as to the degree of perception, subjectivity, objectivity, stability etc..

With best regards,

Adrian.
https://ourultimatereality.com/
Vincit Omnia Veritas

What Tha Phak

O.K. I have now, new comments to make, and very eager to get them clear.    I am willing to accept the self-awareness astral body concept (supporting the point of awareness), it all makes sense.

Adrian, I am inclined to disagree with you when you say, "Astral separation (which is not the same as OBE or phasing), eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent."

On contrare, I say Astral seperation, or projection, and OBEs are the EXACT same thing.  When you "seperate" from you physical body during AP, it would be safe to say you are OUT OF YOUR BODY.  Thus, OBEs and AP are the same thing, just different terms.  Another idea supporting this is- when you are having an OBE... where do you think you are..?  In the Astral, of course!  Also, when you say, "eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent."  I must also disagree.  Judging not from my experience but from my knowledge, EVERYTHING in the astral is SUBJECTIVE, except for the real-time universe Astral, where you can witness things on Earth AS it happens, you can even confirm what you just saw, thus making it OBJECTIVE.  But the mind starts to wander, as Bruce describes, and creates a reality from your SUBJECTIVE thoughts.     I say the planes of existance above the physical and "real-time" planes are entirely subjective.  Bruce even states this.

Tomasz, when people jot down their experiences and some say they feel extreme pain (only way i can describe) do you deny that?  I really don't see how fear can cause someone pain, but CAN see how fear can interrupt the mind and yank it back into body.  Now I REALLY dissagree with you when you say, "but the evidence is that any signal from the body via the Silver Cord causes immediate return and awakening."  Tomasz, first off, what EVIDENCE? How do you think the mind/consciousness operates external of its own physical body?  Your astral self is CONSTANTLY receiving and sending signals back and forth via the silver cord.  How could it not be so?  When you are projecting, and want to raise some energy to make the experience more vivid, or to ease the experience, where do you think the energy comes from?  Your physical/etheric body creates the pure energies and sends it through the silver cord to wherever you are in the astral.

Goldenroses, I consider myself very knowledgable in the topic of OBEs.  I've read entire books solely compiled of the personal experiences that people have, which they wrote themselves; and have read books about theories and deeper philsophical issues shrouding the origins of OBEs.    I believe one can gain an extrodinary amount of spiritual growth and enlightenment from the exploration and time spent while out of body, considering all that is involved in sucessfully exiting the body.  The few people that can willfully AP on this planed are gifted and I admire them.  I'm 16 years old and have yet to have an out of body experience and the day it happens, I'll probably excrement in my pants out of amazement.  I try just about every night before I go to sleep, and sometimes I meditate while listening to trance and hemi-sync music, still trying to leave my body.

Well, I guess what I'm really trying to say is... how could other astral traveleres and beings SEE you if there is no actual body?  Unless they see your self-awarness body.  Which I think is the most likely factor.  They see what you imagine yourself to be.  But then how would you explain pain?  I still say it is possibly (and probably) the physical/etheric body sending these sesations via the silver cord.  Maybe because of lack of energy development, and the body is not quite ready and trained for such massive energy being held in the body...? It's what i think.

Well, anywayzzzzzz my fingers hurt and so does my head for thinkingngkjsdgh arrggg!!!!  Replies are APPRECIATED!  also.. any tips for me and projeting?

kifyre

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings,

The true Astral body is actually the Astra-Mental body. When people pass from physical world upon physical death, they then move to the Astral realms with their Astra-Mental body - a body which is very real, and very perceievable by all Astral residents as a copy, or often a younger version, of the physical body.

To Astral residents and those who can partake in true and complete Astral separation (which is not the same as OBE or phasing), eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent.

The differences arise from the many variations of Astral travel while we still live in the physical world. OBE is a projection of a copy of the mind into an etheric double for example. Phasing is a projection of consciousness to the Astral body, Mental projection is a projection of the Mental body without the Astral body, and Lucid Dreaming is something else again [:)]

So it depends on how you are visiting the Astral as to the degree of perception, subjectivity, objectivity, stability etc..

With best regards,

Adrian.




Hi Adrian,

I'm trying to sort all this out. It looks like we have two separate phenomena here. I'll call them projection and phasing. I define projection as creating an energetic double to bring back memories (obe), and I define phasing is shifting one's egoic consciousness into one of the several higher bodies.

Leaving difficulty aside for the moment, what are the fundamental limitations of these two methods? Is the level of phasing (astral, mental, higher) only limited by the strength of one's egoic consciousness? How is the projected double limited? Can it reach these higher realms if it's made of "fine" enough energy? It seems like one can only experience the Real Time Zone with a projected double.

Now, this leaves true astral separation, death, and lucid dreaming. My impression was that lucid dreaming is phasing at a very low level. Is this correct?

Also, are astral separation and physical death similar processes? Is astral separation a "temporary death," perhaps? Is the astral indeed the "next level up" after physical death, the realm of my (first?) higher self that extends consciousness into me and "other me's" in the past, present, and future?

Mark

Tom

There is something which I want to ask, before anything else: Why is it necessary to be so insulting just to ask a few questions? Maybe it would be easier to answer if the questions could be re-phrased in a more considerate way.

wildbank

See, hear, speak!

Any confusion could be cleared up if one understands or realizes there are CONDITIONS and CHANNELS for every perceptible universe!

If you project something, that may be perceived by some other being or any other point of consciousness depending upon their ability. It also could take knowing more about that other being to compare notes on what they perceived coming from you! And yet, it may not be or ever be exactly the same, but something was perceived!  For example, I could project being like a favorite idol of mine, and those out there may or may not perceive the subtlety of it. But they perceived you.

To be more accurate about bodies in different realms, remember, your current body is also a bundle of managed energy. It would not be perceived as MEAT in the other realms, maybe that is why it is perceived as a copy, for lack of better word. A body of a different frequency that seems to be created by the point of consciousness himself may be a more accurate description.  There is no contradiction in Robert Bruce's description of these realms. It is for you to feel yourself and compare the subtle differences. I do believe that the "bodies" in astral are shapeshifty, just as thoughts can be.

You are going to find gazillions of channels out there! The higher self may not be perceived by you yet! It takes more harmony and Self-unifying and a much higher vibration than you are manifesting.  Higher self implies that you see beyond many of the channels and machinery holding up the universes of creation. In short, the higher self demands of greater source level of creation.  The less flabergasted and frustrated you are, more likely you are headed up there.  Astral world is not up there, it is next to us.  It is all stagnant energy accessible by everyone, an old library of sorts. You can go to the New York public library and open up your mind as well. You will find archaic stuff, graffiti, old newspapers. Astral world is a created world, and it can be manipulated somewhat. It can be bypassed as well. There is lots to learn about all these realms.

Let's see which realms we frequent with ease, and let's see what exciting frontiers lay open ahead.

As for higher self, try Rudolf Steiner's books or Swedenborg. They both confirm that the higher self realms demand of one's ability to raise the vibration and frequency. It is much finer than rap, which seems to be an occasional frequency I encounter in this forum.

I see what some of you mean when you say you are out of the body, etc.. Just respect these old definitions and word labels for reference so we can actually learn to move around anywhere in the realms. I myself sometimes find phasing, astral projecting, mental projecting, etc.. I just take comfort in being AWARE that I am doing all this! Or is it my heavily physically filtered higher self very descended into world of form doing this? Anyhow, I am a single aspect of my higher self manifest in this world and any world I can enter would mean I have opened up my other aspects in this world. We are sending Light out throughout all our creation back to Self. Everything you do is an act of expansion or contraction of known territory. That is what this forum topic attempts at: recovery of our fullest awareness(es), and that would be our higher self via this world of form as a medium of expression and perception where we are writing this from.

Diagrams have been attempted on all these routes of exploration.  I saw one where the highest self is one big long tall shaft and all the other experiences such as OBE, phasing, mental projection, astral, are lesser spikes coming from our current awareness. This is like better than many people in our contemporary society would ever realize in this lifetime. The astral is right there for many at the hour of their deaths and they are in for a surprise. We do our lessons now, and we can graduate sooner by that time or quicker because we dared to question.

Try mapping out your "beyod" experiences and labelling/charting them into a comprhensive diagram that makes sense to you before you disagree.
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

wildbank

I would think that venturing the higher levels of consciousness would mean much LESS MENTAL BAGGAGE (ego and all!) Lots of letting go goes on on the way up! :-)  I think that is what mantras take care of somewhat. Takes you out of your "mind" and restores fuller consciousness. I just said "fuller" consciousness. And we might be talking about worlds with lesser form. We are probably talking about vast power and energy and closer to source, and greatly simplified.

These other places to visit would just take technology and sharing of techniques, like what we are doing now. All the stuff on OBE, astral, mental projecting, and phasing seem to be into worlds of differing levels of density of forms. Yes, some of these terms can be confusing, because we are NOT our bodies. Even there is a certain paradox in saying I am out of my body now, when my awareness is everywhere and selective in points to view from be it in our out of the body, wherever!
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

Person

I think there's been some confusion between philosophy and experience.  When Bruce said all we are when OBE is a point of consciousness, he meant that's all we REALLY are, in essence.  Sometimes we really do experience being our true self, pure consciousness, but most often our subconscious is so used to having a body that it can't accept this idea and creates one out of the astral or etheric matter provided.
Pain is in the mind.  A good example - my friend once had a dream where something went through his foot.  He looked down, having felt nothing, thought to himself that ought to hurt, and suddenly felt a sharp pain 'from his foot'.  Pain in the physical is damaged tissue sending signals of alarm.  The astral body is just energy, it can morph and bend and vanish, and therefore cannot be hurt.  But if through belief and physical experience, one Believes they will feel pain when damaged, they will.  It's possible to send positive emotions to others in the astral.. maybe it's possible to send feelings of physical pain too?  When pain is mentioned in the astral it usually means emotional pain, to my knowledge, and may cause some confusion.  As for the connection... in a dream I think you're right, that say your foot falls asleep and feels tingly and that pain or feeling is incorporated into your dream.  But when OBE, any pain that happens to your physical body will bring you back immediately.  Energy is indeed sent back and forth through the cord, and when the awareness of pain is sent, the body wants all possible awareness to be there to check it out.
The Astral- yes, technically an astral trip is an OBE by definition.  But because Real-Time-Zone-Experience is too long to type out, we tend to mean an OBE as RTZ and Astral as Astral.  The RTZ is not technically in the astral plane, nor is it a 100% perfect copy of the real world, but something in between.
Within the astral, yes you can create your own little world.  Visualize an island and you'll be the only one there, and the only one that can see it.  It will be fluid and change quickly with thought.  But were someone to follow you, they could see what you've created.  Were you to go into a well-developed astral realm where many like-minded souls congregate, it will be quite solid.  Familiar with the part where Bruce describes making astral objects?  The first attempt will vanish the moment you stop thinking about it.  But with repeated effort it will still be there.  Imagine a city built over many years of mental effort.  It will still be changeable, but it would take more effort.
Again with the body... if one imagines themselves to be a younger version of themselves, they will be, and others will percieve them as such.  It's not PURE imagination... it's using the astral energy of the plane around you/your own/ to construct the image.  Therefore, it can be perceived by others at the same level.  If one is comfortable with the idea of not having a body to represent themselves, then they'll possibly appear as a point of light, or maybe not even be visible until they show themselves as something.  Some higher spirits understand our need to see an object to represent a person, and may create an angel or something to ease communication.  This can't really be answered unless someone does an experiment to find out.  Even if there was nothing to see, you would still sense a presence, and be able to communicate.
The difference with phasing is just in how you get there, to my knowledge.  Full OBE is going through the vibrations and going step-by-step, to the etheric then to the astral, and possibly up from there.  Phasing is skipping this step, and just raising your awareness to the desired level, since the astral/mental/etc bodies are already 'loose' and less exit symptoms are felt.

-Person

What Tha Phak

Hey again, whoa those were great posts wildbank and person, you definately cleared a lot of things up, and prestented a whole lotta goody information, I'll definately check out that book. nice site btw..

Adam

Adrian

Greetings Kifyre!

quote:
Originally posted by kifyre

Hi Adrian,

I'm trying to sort all this out. It looks like we have two separate phenomena here. I'll call them projection and phasing. I define projection as creating an energetic double to bring back memories (obe), and I define phasing is shifting one's egoic consciousness into one of the several higher bodies.

Leaving difficulty aside for the moment, what are the fundamental limitations of these two methods? Is the level of phasing (astral, mental, higher) only limited by the strength of one's egoic consciousness? How is the projected double limited? Can it reach these higher realms if it's made of "fine" enough energy? It seems like one can only experience the Real Time Zone with a projected double.

Now, this leaves true astral separation, death, and lucid dreaming. My impression was that lucid dreaming is phasing at a very low level. Is this correct?

Also, are astral separation and physical death similar processes? Is astral separation a "temporary death," perhaps? Is the astral indeed the "next level up" after physical death, the realm of my (first?) higher self that extends consciousness into me and "other me's" in the past, present, and future?

Mark



I agree with your analysis of OBE which appears to involve the generation of an etheric double, into which a copy of the consciousness is transferred for travel. It is due to the fact that there are two copies of the mind involved - i.e. the original and the copy, that the "mind-split" phenomena occurs as described by Robert in AD, an also the memory download problems potentially arise - i.e. in having to to "download" the experiences from the double to the original.

I agree also with your analysis of phasing. We are all multi-dimensional beings, and in phasing the person is transferring the original copy of consciosness into the Astral body, and which then becomes the centre of consciousness and awareness in the Astral realms. Because the original mind is involved with phasing, no memory problems exist, or indeed other phenomena such as the "mind-split".

True Astral separation and death are the same  - the difference being that in the case of the former it is possible to return to the physical body. With true Astral separation, the physical body ceases breathing and all other physical functions, and the Astral body takes over while maintaining the physical body in a state of suspended animation. If a person in this state is touched, instant physical death of the Astral traveller results, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this posting. Again though - as the traveller is with their original Astra-Mental body, there are no memory or "mindsplit" problems.

Lucid dreaming is similar to phasing, but at a much lower level of the Astral - usually either that which corresponds with the individual psyche, or the collective human unconscious. A Lucid dream can be converted to phasing if the person realises that potential while dreaming.

With regards to how far a traveller can progress. With all of the abobe methods, the maximum level that can be reached is the Astral realms - in Kaballistic terms the tenth and lowest Sephiroth known as "Malkuth" which translates to "Kingdom". Above Malkuth are the nine Mental spheres, which range from Mental to Celestial to Cosmic levels of consciousness. Due to the density of the Astral body, these cannot be reached by any form of Astral projection. The only way they can be reached while in physical incarnation is by advanced meditation. After physical death, the level of the Mental spheres attainable are determined by the level of perfection, and therefore vibration of the Mental body of the immortal Spirit. After many incarnations, a level of perfection can be attained such that incarnation is no longer required, and Spiritual progression can continue entirely within the higher spheres.

The level which a traveller can reach during Astral projection is determined by many factors, but fundamentally by the vibrational level and density of the body the traveller is employing. This in turn has to do with the type of projection utilised and the degree of Spiritual perfection of the traveller. After death, it is entirely due to the level of Spiritual perfection, and therefore vibration of the person, who can only reach the level of the Astral that corresponds with their level of vibration and in the density degree of the Akasha.

With best regards,

Adrian.
https://ourultimatereality.com/
Vincit Omnia Veritas

Blossom

Hello,

I have had two OBE's.  One-- I had a body just like my own. And the other I had NO body at all but I could see and feel and was aware of everything and this one was much more enjoyable than the first..

What Tha Phak:  Going by your name, you didn't come here for anything but to create a little static based on something you yourself probably can't do or won't take the time to find out for yourself.. What a shame.

Robert, I love your book by the way and it is the reason for my second OBE.. Good job and good work!!!!!

Blossom
~~Blossom~~

-----------
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there."
In Alice in Wonderland by 'Cheshire Cat'

Lysear

Lets try and lay off what the phak for a bit. Here is a person who was curious about what they saw as a flaw in mr Bruces work. tHey are merely questioning it, and I dont believe they did it in an offensive way.

speaking from my experience of my one concious projection when i managed to walk about, i did notice I had a body and i was walking. However I did have trouble lifting up my arms when I attempted this. It is something I will try to look at next time I manage to have a concious projection.

Another point worth considering is that since each person in the world is completly unique and has been shaped by their own life experiences, is it not possible to argue that each persons perception of projection would also be unique?

Person

Lysear -
"Another point worth considering is that since each person in the world is completly unique and has been shaped by their own life experiences, is it not possible to argue that each persons perception of projection would also be unique?"

Good question.  I hope not :)  It reminds me of physics class.. the idea that we are all wired a bit differently, therefore blue to you is not the same to anyone else.  This could expand to every physical sense.  And since we all experience the world differently, we must me amazingly unique.  
I think we conform a lot more than that.  Maybe we see different hues, but most of us see pretty much the same color.  On Earth, our perceptions are indeed very unique.  But in the astral, there are trillions of beings, so many that there's bound to be a cluster sharing the same perspective as you.  Like attracts like, as Bruce likes to say.  So if you went somewhere you were naturally drawn to, you'd probably see everything the same way the natives do.  
But in other areas.. like higher planes or shared dreams, symbolism changes everything.  You see only what you can relate to.  If you can't make sense of something, your subconscious will try to find something close to it, and you'll never know a switch was made.  In one RTZ OBE, I knew my friend had a wooden deck in his backyard, but as I flew over it it became a pool with a deck around it.  When I focused on something else, the pool was gone for good.
Ever study mutual dreams?  The thought or idea will always get across, but the symbols representing them will always be very different, due to differences in perception.  But this also shows that once we get past needing visuals and a voice to convey ideas, and one sends the thought alone, it gets across much clearer.  
-Person

liefmichael

Well.  I'm  disappointed in the reaction to that post.  WhatThaPhak has obviously read the book closely, and not only that but has studied the book carefully, down to the choice of words used in separate sections of the book.

"you didn't come here for anything but to create a little static based on something you yourself probably can't do or won't take the time to find out for yourself.. What a shame."  - it was a serious question on a serious subject that he has taken time to think about

"But I have never ever experienced any kind of pain at all while projecting.How about trying a little direct personal experience yourself? If you have read so much, surely you must know how to astrally project yourself by now." - as regular visitor here knows, reading so much and knowledge does not automatically mean an OBE.

i have seen many people here with less commitment that have received more help.
how about some support and encouragement for a student of the OBE?  I am glad not everyone here are mindless Robert Bruce cultists (no offence against Mr Bruce, just the cultists) and are willing to challenge a statement if they believe it is wrong.  Remember WhatThaPhak did not say it was wrong from what he has experienced, he was merely commented on what we can all read in the book.

"Its just an OBE."

peace and love
liefmichael

Tom

I will repeat what I said earlier: it was how the ideas were presented, not what the ideas were which was a problem. When people who are less committed to astral projection get more help with it, the reason is usually in how the help is asked for.

liefmichael

Tom, with all due respect as a member of your standing deserves, I have re-read the post and I feel I personally would not be insulted at all by his approach, though it may be written in a non-formal conversational style.

love and peace
lief michael

Blossom

I agree with Tom.. The guy came across confrontational.
~~Blossom~~

-----------
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there."
In Alice in Wonderland by 'Cheshire Cat'

goldenroses

Hi there, What Tha Phak,
My first "obe" was involuntary when I was 15 (one year younger than you, young man), and there was an awful lot more to it than just leaving my body.It lasted for over an hour and started while I was in normal waking consiousness, and leaving my body was the end of it.And I did s**t my pants.It freaked me out, scared the hell out of me and I didn't have a clue what it was.I had no-one to talk to about it, and no way of understanding what had happened to me. I was too scared to talk to anyone, for fear of ridicule, misunderstanding, or even being thought I was crazy.But I desperately wanted to understand what had happened.This was in 1976.I scoured book-shops trying to find people who had experienced the same thing, but I just kept coming to a dead end.There seemed to be no-one.A couple of years later I stumbled across the first book written by Robert Munroe.He seemed to have experienced something like me.It didn't answer all my questions but at least it was a start.It was the answer to my prayers.At last I knew that I wasn't alone, or a freak, or going crazy.I will always be extremely grateful for that.But if it wasn't for those first few people who had the courage to talk about these "things" that were happening to them, who decided to start putting pen to paper and write about their "experiences", none of this information would be so freely available now.Available for you, young man, to read and benefit from...and criticize!!!I wish it had been around for me at your age!!!!So I apologize for the harshness of my reply to your criticism.It just seemed so unfair to me.These people are learning as they are writing and experiencing, and they don't have all the answers, but they are doing their best.So please bear this in mind.

Frank



Okay, I just picked up on this. Let's assume, please, the person asking just got misunderstood and so forth. I have a copy of the book here and if the original poster of this thread could please point me in the direction of actual page numbers... in addition to the salient points... I'll do my best to assist.

Yours,
Frank


What Tha Phak

Blossom- "Going by my name," huh? Tell me, what do you think my name means.  The only explaination you could possibly give is that which you THINK it means in your own unique interpretation.  My name is my business and it's what I chose for everyone to refer to me as.  The sole intention of me writing posts, let alone even coming to this website, is NOT to create a little "static," or whatever, it is for my own personal growing knowledge of OBEs and the input of others that have experience doing it.
    So you think I take no time to try to AP ("what a shame")..?  Well that's another big mistake, I'll have you know that I am dedicating a good amount of time everyday, as a teen these days, in being able to willfully "exit."  I have not yet been successful.  I try every night, along with extensive energy raising practice and meditation.  I am as serious as serious can get about exploring the truths behind OBE.  I don't think you have read my first two posts, otherwise common sense would tell you not to say such nonsense remarks.  Try and "blossom" some non-judgmental thoughts into yourself for a change.

Whether or not my posts were confrontational or non-formal, that's what I wrote and that's how I feel; I am writing casually, I'm NOT writing an essay.  By all means, I am in no way at all challenging Robert Bruce, but AM questioning his statements hoping for more understanding! liefmichael and Lysear, thank you for backing me up :P

Goldenroses, I feel you when you talk about not wanting to be thought of as crazy and such.  I know exactly how you feel.  OBEs happen whether some people know, don't know, or even accept it.  I seldom bring up this topic around people out of fear.  I am also desperatley searching for someone (in the flesh, not an i-net forum) who has experience at being able to willfully project.  I would love to have a one on one conversation with them and some hands on advise they can teach.  An Astral Projection class would be a dream come true (actually a successful exit would be a dream come true ;P).

So what does anyone think about listening to trance and hemi-sync music/frequency sounds to help induce OBE?  I do think it helps to put one in a trance, giving time and a clear mind.

I would love to see more posts about your (everyone's) thoughts and theories; wildbank and person, you attracted my most attention, Your posts were great.

So lets see some more thoughtful posts and less of those irrevelent, petty comments of complaints!

Adam


liefmichael

Now that was a good post.
I'm sorry people, but we can't just hide away the stuff we don't want to hear, get it out and talk about it.  What is right if we don't know what is wrong?  Robert Bruce is only human, and i'm sure he errs occassionally - as do we all. Now I know you are spiritual people, but that doesn't mean you have to be over-sensitive "softies".
peace and love
lief michael

Frank

Yep... and again if the person in question could be more specific I (for one) will do my best to answer.

Yours,
Frank


Shawn McCaffrey

I think it's sad when someone comes to this board seeking answers and instead get ridiculed.  I bet if his name was "I love Blossom" or "TOM ROCKS!" no one would have thought it was confrontational.....

You put your thoughts togeather better than a lot of adults I know What Tha Phak, keep it up, never surrender. [|)]

Tom

That would be disturbing, not confrontational.

My cat chooses this moment to say hi.

Could someone re-state what the question was that started this thread?