Robert Bruce is confusing and contradicts himself!

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What Tha Phak

[8D] Thanks for the compliment, Shawn McCaffrey.  It's nice to see this post topic finally back on track to the subject I presented.  I'll post again later tonight because I gotta go help my mom cook or else..[B)] heh.. heh..   I will be as clear as possible.

Daniel

This short extract is not ment to offense anyone but dedicated especially to What Tha Phak[:)] (not humble but modest)

Regards,
Daniel

http://www.iacworld.org/English/Sciences/AParadigmForConsciousnessResearch.asp

"...Subsociety. Besides this, it is necessary to definitively destroy the link between pure parapsychism and the following four spurious realities:

1. Occultism or popular group autism.

2. Inappropriate commercialism.

3. Sensationalism.

4. Shrewd mystification.

Disconnection. As difficult as this may prove to be, it has to be done. As things are, unfortunately, serious persons distance themselves and a field as promising as this is characterized as an ingenuous, simplistic subsociety.

Significations. One cannot enter into a world of significance without formulating the necessary postulates.

Ingenuousness. In religion, these postulates are called blind or rationalized faith. In the majority of religions, the sacred, infallible truth is decreed through doctrine (dogmatization, dogmatics, theology). Its acceptance is based on the unquestionable faith of ingenuous religiosity.

Heresy. Any sign of doubt or questioning is considered heresy or dissidence, when not bordering on anathema."


liefmichael

Welcome to the astral pulse Silva! the post was fine, by the way.
Do not take what I said literally, or if you wish to, re-read my post on "softies".  My belief is that Robert Bruce has laid some great ground work for the study of OBE.  He is human.  He is not divinity.  He can, and will err, like everyone of us.  Everyone here can contribute to the study of OBE, and by visiting this forum and posting, whether it sounds 'confrontational' or not.  Can you really imagine scientists researching *insert research topic here* being petty about whether an analysis of a thesis didnt include the words please and thankyou?
last point for this thread (and i really enjoyed it, thank you all [:D])

What Tha Phak:  The topic of this thread "Robert Bruce is confusing and contradicts himself" was slightly too pointed for some here, although I know what you meant.  Maybe pose it next time as a question or "I believe.... "
I believe there is no etheric body. I believe you never leave your body.  I believe your brain generates an environment for you (much like a computer game, but we dont think they are real - however realistic they look and sound).  I have not decided whether I believe that this generated environment is based on outside data, like your brain acts as a astral radar dish.
Either way, OBEing is fun, has opened my mind to soooooo many other things that I never thought possible, and needs to be studied, shared & CONFRONTED.  Many fields of science have had changes in theories over the years.
How many here still believe the earth is flat? (i dont actually want to hear the answer to that, i'm sure theres a few like that here)

peaces of love to you all.
keep debating NOT flaming
lief michael

Person

I'd like to remind everyone what we were like before our first OBE.  For me at least, I was skeptical, and had a confrontational attitude when talking to people with any set belief system.  I liked to challenge everything.  I found no offense to Adam's posts.
Instead of using up another page with debating wether he was rude or not, shall we continue answering the actual questions?

"So what does anyone think about listening to trance and hemi-sync music/frequency sounds to help induce OBE? I do think it helps to put one in a trance, giving time and a clear mind."

I got the program BrainWaveGenerator for free somewhere on my computer.  If anyone wants, I can upload it to the download section. It'll produce static sound that alternates the pulses from left ear to right at a certain frequency.  Same idea as hemi-sync.  You can overlay your favorite songs with it, but it gets irritating when you let it loop.  The best part about it is it's help file - a very good explanation on alpha/beta states of mind and what frequencies relate to them.  
I have some hemi-sync stuff courtesy of WinMX :)  Havent had the time to really experiment with them, but i did burn focus 12 to cd once for a 5 hour car ride.  Passed the time really well and it really did change my awareness a bit, but the whole time I felt I still had to try and go along with it.. it wouldnt just put me in an altered state 'for me.'
The main problem I have with them is the practicality of listening to them while going to sleep.  Large headphones are uncomfortable, as well as the earbuds, and any make it difficult to lay on your side.  Hemisync doesn't work just being played on a stereo.  My computer is opposite my bed, so to even get the head phones to work I had to string my stereo as far as possible, and headphones from there, and I only had a few inches to work with :/
I'd say they're great for 'getting the feel' of a specific state of mind.  If you're not used to meditating or want to know what the trance state feels like, it's a great tool.  But once you're familiar, I think it's best done yourself.
One last thought... if you were to project with the tapes on, it's possible your mind would associate the tapes with the action, and make OBE even more likely while the tapes are going.  
Has anyone had good success with the use of such tapes?

-Person

liefmichael

hmmm i tried something like that a while back, but i didnt like the feeling it gave me. sorta like using a drug and trying to OBE.  i'll let my brain do it 'naturally' i think. i remember reading a warning about epileptics as well... pleaaaase if you are, DO NOT USE IT!
peaces of love
lief michael

Greytraveller

Hello everyone. This is a Heavyweight discussion (and at times a somewhat pointed debate). So I would like to post my opinion for consideration. I have had several dozen OBEs over eight years so I do have experience being out of body.
    First I most certainly Do beleive that people have an objective second body. In fact I am still considering whether there are actually Three bodies. I am certain that there are At Least Two - The physical body And The Astral body And/Or the Ethereal Body.
I tend to lean toward the idea of 3 but am not certain. In any case the Second body does exist apart from the mind/consciousness. I equate the Ethereal body with the Soul and the Astral body with the Spirit.
    My opinion is that there is an Ethereal plane. The ethereal equals the Real Time Zone (Robert Bruce) and also equals Locale I (The Here and Now of Robert Monroe). The ethereal is a double (imperfect double) of the physical universe.
    There is an Astral plane/realm. It is 'higher' than the ethereal. Whether the astral includes the Christian Heaven and Hell is a question that I have cannot attempt to answer due to lack of experience.
  I would like to note that debate, discussion and argument is healthy. I respect the opinions of everyone who posts here but always reserve the right to decide for myself based, of course, on my personal experiences. [8D]

What Tha Phak

OK first I'd like to say the entire reason for me making that specific title post is BECAUSE it seemed so challenging.  That would attract a lot of people, just like corperation attracting the public.... anywayz don't judge a book by it's cover. and pull the monkey out of your all's anal. (those that care more about my presentaion than my reason) heh, i think it's funny how personal some people can take some things... chill dudes go smoke a joint [:P]

Now then, in Astral Dynamics, Bruce describes this second subtle body which the pure energy from the etheric/physical body generates.  He states you must generate this body by creating a sufficient amount of energy through his "tactile imaging," in order to create this body, which I have found, through the past 3 months and vigorious practice, to work extrememly well.  He even gives advise saying (paraphrasing) that if you do not "feel" certain body parts or areas "out" then you must generate more energy and concentration.

K now back to the original post.  If you are ONLY a single point of consciousness (or simply awareness) while out of body, with no "spirit," or "etheric matter" as a body, then why would it even be so necessary to "create" this second body, let alone get body parts "out"...?  I do accept when people describe ascending (or descending) into higher astral planes, that their form becomes more and more abstract and mental, even higher into the purely highest mental planes (where a body wouldn't be nessesary), for lack of a better describtion (someone help me?).  What I think is that there IS some sort of body to you in the LOWER (or simple/less?) planes.... why else would so much generation be needed?  But as your awareness changes and becomes higher and higher, the reality around you becomes more and more abstract into these mental planes.  If there IS etheric matter (pure energy) inside my physical body at waking state.. then it would seem logical to say that there IS an astral/spiritual/etheric body that you assume in the RTZ (real-time zone), which might I add is part of the physical universe... .. .just not.. in the physical. you see..? It is still "part" of the Universe.  Now in the Astral (existing at a higher level of vibration than the physical universe), i think it is a possibility  that you are merely a point of awareness, reflecting unto the astral your thoughts and perceptions, LESS an actual body that you assume. Again, I am open for anyone's thoughts that have also deeply considered MY thoughts and opinions...

What Tha Phak

Greytraveller-

1.) What is your describtion of the 3rd body?

2.) What differenciates soul and spirit?

Greytraveller

Hi WhatThePhak. I tend to believe that individuals are actually three separate and distinct entities. (Though I have not entirely become convinced about this/it might be only 2 bodies.)
    The first body is the physical body. Simple, 'nuff said.
    The second body is the Ethereal body. The ethereal body Is an actual, objective entity. It is shape and size though is greatly more flexible and elastic than the physical body. The ethereal body is what is called by many people the Soul. It can exist in the physical universe And the ethereal plane indefinately. The ethereal body can also exist on the astral plane(S) (though whether indefinately or for a limited time I am not sure.) My 'knowledge' of the ethereal body comes from many personal ethereal projections. My latest ethereal projection was a little over a month ago. At that time I saw my ethereal body reflected in a (physical/ethereal) mirror. (That was a first for me.) I have seen my own ethereal body and the ethereal bodies of other people many times.
    The third body is the astral body. The astral body corresponds directly with the concept of the Spirit. There are astral planes. I have been lucky enough to experience astral porjections a handful of times. All astral projections have been 'adventures' while, in comparison, the ethereal projections seem rather tame. The closest description that I know of the astral planes is Robert Monroe's Locale III. Astral planes can appear similar to ethereal or physical locales but there are creatures on the astral planes that you would not (likely) encounter elsewhere - Deities, God, Jesus, Dragons, etc. (No doubt that last sentence will draw some criticism but so be it !) That said my 'knowledge' of the astral body is somewhat limited. But again i am quite inclined to believe that both the astral body and the ethereal body exist.
   I would continue but I begin to ramble. Hope you can make some sense out of all this. Don't be discouraged. When you have your first projection then many things that are now confusing will become very clear to you. Of course many questions will remain and new questions will appear. Any 'secret' to successful projecting is simply to keep trying. There are always more failures than successes. It is always a questions of numbers. Keep trying (hint: to everyone that reads this [;)]) and you Will eventually successfully project. Good luck.

wildbank

To Adam (What the Phak):  You pose very good questions!!! We will attempt to be helpful in every way! Are you keeping a "beyond the physical dimension" log???? Dream/Astral/OBE log, whatever. Most likely you are not remembering all your wild journeys! Is that the case? As for astral realm, I am suspecting that it is a realm of everyone's thoughts thrown in, hiding places, under carpet stuff, etc.. It is a world of NO SECRETS? But with lots of emotion? I am going to ask GreyTraveller now some questions....

Grey Traveller: I was intriqued by your comments on ethereal and astral worlds. I didn't hear much detail on the ethereal, as I am very curious what it is like to you and how you differentiate it apart from the astral realm? I'd like your descriptions!

Person: Thanks for the postings, this is a very exciting thread!

Back to Adam: why create a double? I think it is for heightened perception, to feel more close to human? Alot of my beyond physical experiences are like stuff of incredible speed, changing scenarios, being aware of how biggest we can be, and yet, I don't or didn't pay much attention to what I looked like or look for my hands always. There are also several instances that I am awake doing this, simply sitting in chair, even noticing that my cheekbones have a weird density, and then my third eye feels like Mt. Everest peaking.  The idea is to experience anything and relish it and tell others about it. It is just like a wonderful aspect of who we did not know who or how we are. Then we gotta classify what experience was that!!! I also suspect that people are going to use OBE and body doubles to solve cases, to transcend the physical barriers in getting information they need for physical issues. To see a friend, to check something out, to win the lottery? Not sure what everyone's individual take is.

So, do that log! It will help you make the most of what you almost forgot, of what nearly escaped you. The idea is to very quickly remember the dream or experience well before you open your eyes, as if memorizing it deliberately, then writing it down. Some of those things are easy to forget by light of day.  The spiritual experiences in my waking moments are by contrast easiest to remember because they are so strong and my body and perceptics are blown away!  Does this help?
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

wildbank

I wish to comment on the Beyond stuff we see on TV, with these amazing psychics reading from a random audience member to their enthrallment or disbelief.  What I am noticing pathetically is how many people are looking for their "Herbie" or "Fifi" on the other side, and feeling so flattered they are remembered back. What I am getting at is that this physical form is not who we really are, as it dismisses that greater Self we are. I prefer to feel "connected" to the entire wonderful being unmanifest, and it is quite great and awesome.  I have had fortunate encounters with living or departed beings who know how to give me their fullest self over a distance. It feels trancelike, if I am asked to describe the feeling, and usually accompanied by great overwhelm, and occasionally, an effervescent rush all over the body.  If we can do this, it could mean that we have untapped vast resources to do all the finer techniques that we are discussing in the forums.  We are here! It means we are ready! Eager teachers and eager students! Awake and very much on the cutting edge! You will all have not just your OBE sooner or not much later but a plethora of many tricks. This vibe here is bound to open up more new vibes and delightful ramifications of our multidimensional gifts.
Aloha!
The greatest pearl was once a grain of sand.
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

Tom

There is no contradiction between being a point of consciousness and experiencing through a body. The challenge is to learn to experience reality through gradually less dense bodies until we no longer need any sort of body. We start with a physical body which is composed of matter from the physical plane. Then we learn astral projection and experience more things through the astral body, which is composed of astral material. This is less dense than physical material. As we make progress, the astral body becomes less dense and we are able to move higher up through the planes. Then we move on to the mental planes and use a body that is less dense than the astral body. It is made up of the material of the mental planes. Just as the physical body needs food, water, air, clothes, and so on, the astral and mental bodies need to be maintained on their own levels. Fortunately it is easier to get what we need for a strong astral or mental body than it is to get food for the physical body. While we are learning to be just a consciousness with no body, we have to use and maintain our bodies.

wildbank

Tom:
Wow, even your recent posting is helping through all this information, as it is making things even more coherent and understandable in such few words! I liked the way you explained how we go about adjusting to different densities for this exploration. Thanks!
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

Person

Adam -
I get the impression you're more conscerned with the etheric body, and why we need to focus on it so much for preparation to OBE.  The etheric is much more a 'body' than the astral is.  According to Bruce, it's deeply connected with the physical body.  Chakras align with major organs, and minor chakras align with certain glands.  The purpose of stimulating this body is to activate all the energy centers, which convert raw energy into higher forms for your use in OBE.  Ever notice a lack of energy when you're sick or full?  The energy is routed to take care of what needs energy the most.  Fasting is considered a spiritual practice because your body isnt expending as much energy on digestion.  There's no need to stimulate the astral body, unless you were just trying to gain a sense of awareness for it.  It's disconnected enough from the body that it doesnt matter what shape, if any, it's in.  It'l tend to reshape into your self image, because we're so used to it.  

All we really are is a point of consciousness.  Even now, awake in our physical bodies, that's all we are.  The etheric has a shape because it's so closely linked with the physical body.  As long as we're alive, it will maintain a similar shape.  

Does this clear anything up for you?
-Person

wildbank

Alot of things are confusing in the area of aliveness and being attached to a body in human form. I can guess or bet that if we are without bodies long enough, not needing to reincarnate, we'd let memories of bodies recede into background or off the main picture or focus. People get scared of death because it means or feels that one is no longer 'alive', but 'alive' then would mean inhabiting a body. We are immortal, and migratory in conscious perception.

This "aliveness" issue could make sense out of everything. We are everywhere we like, and we can select our channels and block out other sensory stimuli for shift of focus, one or few things at a time.

There was one mindblowing experience that I had that challenged my notion that I can only do one thing at a time: in going around an obstacle like a table in a room, when I had my focus on where I was going toward, I felt as I had gone around BOTH sides of the table to my destination, because I couldn't make up my mind which side to pass. I did both sides simultaneously. So, I was able to split my consciousness into two. I would not know which was a copy! There were two of me. This happened about 24 years ago.  Now, isn't that what we are doing when we elect to do OBE, astral travel or phasing? Deciding to do something else while doing one chore, like sitting and closing one's eyes while the other point of you is exploring some unknown place? Another thing, our consciousness may be part creator/author in creation of our present physical body. All the bodies we are covering here are several of many that we can operate! It just takes having a go at it.
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

What Tha Phak

yes, I knew that, technically speaking, are we really are is but a point of consciuosness (or awareness) all along, but also I agree with the post that there is some sort of etheric density to you while in the lower astral and RTZ planes.  

I can't believe how popular this thread is.. heh

terrance

Cool topic.  Some aspects of what has been mentioned I was also mulling over for a while.  Someone asked me how I thought the different bodies fit together ie how can you make sense of the idea that we have one or more bodies?

The way I described it at the time was to place a pen on a tray.  I said the pen was me and the tray the physical universe as I know it.  I then placed a can of coke outside the tray and said that was me in the RTZ with my RTZ body.  I then placed a coin further away from the tray and said that was me in the lower astral.  And then I placed a spoon further away from the tray again and said that was me in a higher astral plane etc etc.

Now the way that I actually see this model working (for the time being) are that these different bodies are just ways of US coping with this new environment.  So in the RTZ we may find that we have a body like the physical... but it's sluggish.  It's sluggish until you make it more mental i.e. you will your arm up instead of trying to move it up etc.

Later you may find yourself in a body with less substance and so on.  I think these bodies are all one in the same and that we manifest them to make sense of movement, seeing, touching etc.  So the coke, coin and spoon are all one in the same.

I see energy raising as allowing us to bridge the gap(s) between these so called bodies to the real point of consciousness that we are.

...this is how I've put it together for the time being......

regards
t

wildbank

Probably yes, Terrance. About the objects on the tray. (I am not a Cokehead.)

My other take is that we seem to resemble those Russian wooden dolls, one within another, in ever progressive quantity. The faces could be painted differently on each doll figure. To represent the different densities we occupy in different realms. Each doll perceives a different world. Something like that?
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

What Tha Phak

terrance and wildbank, your post made excellent sense.

"I see energy raising as allowing us to bridge the gap(s) between these so called bodies to the real point of consciousness that we are." -terrence

I agree also with that statement.  It was a really great thread!  I hope other people have learned as much as I did, through it's debates.

Chris



Everyone contradicts themselves quite frequently.  In an effort to explain one's own thoughts, one many times sees their own thoughts more clearly leading to seeming contradiction and clarification.  Do not take EVERYTHING said as ABSOLUTE truth and you will have no problem.  Take EVERYTHING as possible truth and digest it as you can into your own life path.  See possibilities... expand the sight... maybe you'll see something we all didn't.

ralphm

Mr. Phak asks good questions, maybe beyond my ability to answer definately-but maybe that is the answer-there is not a correct answer. It seems like there some kind of astral body according to classical sources. I have been rereading Monroe's Ultimate Journey where he encounters dead people who still think they are alive, which means they can't recognize they are missing a body, but maybe they are creating it, if you remember his story of the dead guy with the erection. So maybe it all a matter of our awareness, being able to tell the real from the 'illusion' of maya- whether self created or a product of mass conciousness. As for my own experience, I find myself floating around without really being aware of what kind of body I inhabit while obe.
In the world in general and in this nation
May not even the names disease, famine, war, and suffering be heard.
May virtuous qualities, merit, and prosperity greatly increase
And may continuous good fortune and subline well-being perfectly arise.

What Tha Phak

Another question of mine, specifically to Robert bruce.. WHOO hOOOOohooo Robert Bruce...  is ther any one OUT THERE..?  In Astral Dynamics, toward the end of the book you go one to explain one of your experiences- the one where you have the pain in your right hip and you go to an astral world to seek help?  And you encounter this priest guy?  Well I was really curious and wondering, when he told you that YOU were the only who is able to rid the "curse" by finding out when it happened, why, and who did it.  HE said it was probably from a witch not of this world.  Well, did you ever fully recover?  Why would someone do such evil thing to you?  Did you remember who did it?

Also,  obviously, there IS much to fear in the astral... There ARE harmful elements and energies out there...  you go on later to say beware of harmful situations and stay clear of problems that could cause your energy body "damage".  If this is true (and proving it with the whole hip thing and psychic attacks) then why do you state in the beggining of the book, there is nothing to be scared of, nothing in the astral can possibly harm you...?  Well, just another contradicting question of mine, with all due respect.  I just want to learn from other people's experiences, since i'm not developed enough to explore them myself [:(]

wildbank

My feeling is to get used to all the characters in the otherworlds when you can. They are not your enemy, FEAR is! Fear is your worst enemy, I guess. It is the opposite of projecting love beams, beams of Light. A reverse flow. (Shrink with fear, expand with Love) Love gets it over with. I may make it sound easier than done, but I think that is the principle at work.  I suggest everyone take a course for the fainthearted, go on tours to Museum of Natural History, look at all the creepy crawler specimens magnified 100X, or try the Fear Factor TV series as a contestant and let them make you eat something intersting or put you in a pit of snakes or get fooled by Joe Millionaire in front of millions like a jerk on National TV. Just remember, you are Immortal. And if you are afraid, you will be immortally affected. Insert
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

wildbank

I just realized something, in attempting at a definition of the word "FEAR". Could fear be an unwillingness to SHIFT your current vibration radically as you seem to feel you are unprepared to be in full control. Those in fear don't want to be jerked abit out of their comfort zone. Solution? expand the comfort zone for greater flexibility. In exit of body, it pays to understand lots more of the realms you are going into, or at least be willing to play Russian Roulette with an empty pistol. Make sure it is not loaded. Remove all your vulnerabilities! Those are the bullets.
Wildbank
Artist NY
http://wildbank.com

Blossom

Personally, I feel that our greatest assest in conquering our "fear" is to believe in ourselves and to trust ourselves as we develop our abilites.  

My first obe was spontaneous.  The second only came after I decided nothing could hurt me or harm me.  There was a year and a half between these two experiences with alot of learning in between.  

But the second time was only successful after I decided to let go and just be.  I decided to be an energy conductor and all the good energy in the universe was waiting to connect with me.  I just had to welcome it.  I trusted myself that nothing bad would come to me and it did not..  

It was wonderful.

Trust in yourself.

And Phak, if you don't agree with Robert's method, learn and develop your own methods and then share them with us for other's to learn from.  Every OBE experience you will read about is different.  Your's also will be different than any you have read about in a book or in a forum.  

My advice to Phak:  Trust in yourself and believe nothing will hurt you and it won't.  You are your best friend.  You can only read other's advice and opinions but the bottom line is, you have to do it yourself.  You can read all day long but practice is the key.  I believe we only have to remember how.  

~~Blossom~~

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"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there."
In Alice in Wonderland by 'Cheshire Cat'