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Author Topic: Sceptical about OBEs  (Read 8801 times)
Risu no Kairu
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« on: June 11, 2004, 22:26:35 »

Would you accept it if we could?
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2004, 22:28:30 »

I've seen this comment come up often, all I can say is you will believe what you believe, no sense in me trying and frankly I don't feel the need to make you believe them.[^]

I guess it's enough for me to believe in them, I certaintly don't have scientific proof..[Tongue]

Nay [Wink]
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2004, 22:28:30 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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BOATS
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2004, 23:40:56 »

What would consider proof ?  How about a physical planet circling a massive star in a physical multi dimensional universe we can just barely understand.  How about a site called Astral Pulse where we can question the Astral and spiritual nature of our beings.  If we are here once why is it so difficult to believe we can be here twice and if twice we need a soul?  Without getting into religion too much Jesus was either the greatest liar who ever lived or he was telling the truth.  I always remember the scene from the movie Ben Hur when his mother and sister are in the cave and have Leprosy.  His girlfriend goes to take them from the cave to see Christ.  His sister is affraid and his gilrfriend tells her "Don't be affraid Ester for the world is more then we know. The universe has a prime directive to not just create life but to create intelligent life.  It is good to question because it keeps us growing but lets get past the wondering and start discovering.
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2004, 10:00:11 »

No,no, we cannot have that kind of thought s because they are some how circular logic or ilusions.

Thanatos, i understand perfectly your question because that itīs what iīm searching too. I can say you very little few things. One of them is that since i am in Astral Pulse (without offense to anyone, i am just saying a fact) no one as give me proof of anything. There are people that were out of the body and had seen things that they could prrof (f.ex: get out of the body and see the sister dressed in blue and playing computer, and when come back he confirmed that). But this kind of proof can be an ilusion, because (letīs take on my last example) the refered sister could be in the computer all the time, so itīs not difficult to guess that (if obes= dream).

Now, refering to proofs like put a random number in some part of my house (without see the number) and then i get out of the body and see the number as he really is (of course that i will only confirm it when come back to my body!), well that kind of proof i didnīt see it here in the forum. There is altought an old case of a scientist that make the experience with a women able to project. She saw one number with 5 digits (i think that were 5...i know that at least were 5) and say it to the scientist. The number was correct! They couldnīt make more experiences because was difficult to the women to control the obes.

Now, if you want my advice (i am saying this ti every newbie that is learning obe[Wink]), you must do as me: learn obe (i am still learning) and then put some random number or card in a inacessible area of your house. Make an obe and see the number. Come back and see if you had sucess. If obes are treu the percentage of sucess must be high (for me, high itīs 90%, not less...well,maybe 80%).

So, do as i say, learn obes and proof (or dis-proof) to yourself the nature of obes.

Mayb you have a "little" question now: if obes are not true, how could i get out of my body in order to proof, or not proof, the experience?

Itīs simple, scientists now that obes are real. People have obes. The problem is that we donīt know if they are hallucinations (as scientists think) or if they are real (as we want to think).

So, it is possible (in a scientific view) to auto induce obes (remember, for scientists obes= hallcuinations or =lucid dreams). With that in mind you can pratice and learn obes and later you will confirm who is correct: scientists or astral travellers.


Good Luck ((for both of us![Wink])
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Thanatos
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2004, 13:20:38 »

There is another thread here about how electrical stimulation of the brain produces OBE's.   To me, that's very convincing evidence that OBE's are produced by brain function and that it's all in your head.

Don't believe me?  Try inducing OBE's yourself (see other thread to learn how to do this) and you'll see what I mean.  With enough experience with them, you'll be convinced that it's all in your head.

I am being open-minded.  I accept the possibility the OBE's may actually be real out of body phenomena;  I just find it highly unlikely because everything I know and have experienced suggests that OBE's are just the result of brain function and hallucination.

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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2004, 13:20:38 »



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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2004, 15:29:24 »

Recently, I see more skeptic topics, which is basically good. And more to come, because scientific minded peoples become more interested in this stuff.

They fight with their own scientific beliefs playing the hard sceptics here. But in secretly, they desperately yearn that something, someone being able to verify the phenomenon and stake off a new territories for scientific explorations. They require this verification to get caught and begin a serious practice.

Perhaps we should compile a little list for them. Like it or not, with help or without, I will do it for sure.

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PennywiseTheClown
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2004, 17:06:58 »

@ Thanatos:

How can you draw the conclusion that OBEs originate in the brain from the fact that they can be achieved by electrically stimulating the brain? When applying this kind of logic, you'd also have to believe that your TV programmes come from inside your TV - after all you can change them by stimulating your TV with infrared Smiley
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2004, 18:23:48 »

Lol! Thatīs a good point!

But i still want proofs! "I want to believe!" For that reason i want to prrof at leats to myself, that i can obe and see the numbers, te card test, whatever. I already have put random numbers in the top of an inacessible place. If you want i will explain later how i created this random numbers.

Now i am hoping that i will get luck enough to obe and see the numbers! Itīs a 5 digit number, so the probabilitie to guess itīs 1 in 10000 (0,01%!)!. If i fail one number, but i guess the other digits,well, maybe itīs not so bad. In rude calculation, i think that the probabilities of such case are 1 in 200. Not bad. Well, letīs stop talking and start pratice!

I want you  people on the astral pulse forum to make this experiment in home and give the results. All of you!
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APGuy
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2004, 19:23:43 »

I was very surprised in reading this topic that noone mentioned The Monroe Institute.  As we know it now The Monroe Institute is famous for Hemi-Sync.  However, it was started by a Dr. Monroe who experienced OBEs without trying and wanted to better understand them.  He held experiments with eight digit random numbers in other rooms entirely.  They have documented cases with at least a thousand positive results for all eight correct or the eight that were correct being reversed by the person.  This is, unfortunately, a little known fact.  This is my understanding at least.[Wink]
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manuel
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2004, 19:35:59 »

quote:
Originally posted by APGuy

I was very surprised in reading this topic that noone mentioned The Monroe Institute.  As we know it now The Monroe Institute is famous for Hemi-Sync.  However, it was started by a Dr. Monroe who experienced OBEs without trying and wanted to better understand them.  He held experiments with eight digit random numbers in other rooms entirely.  They have documented cases with at least a thousand positive results for all eight correct or the eight that were correct being reversed by the person.  This is, unfortunately, a little known fact.  This is my understanding at least.[Wink]



Whoa, since when did Rob Monroe do these experiments? Do you have any links? I do know he did do an experiment I think in the 60's or 70's with Charles Tart, he didn’t make it to the numbers, but he did see stuff that was quite spot on in the book, but I am very interested in these experiments you mention with the eight numbers.

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APGuy
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2004, 20:02:59 »

quote:
Originally posted by manuel

quote:
Originally posted by APGuy

I was very surprised in reading this topic that noone mentioned The Monroe Institute.  As we know it now The Monroe Institute is famous for Hemi-Sync.  However, it was started by a Dr. Monroe who experienced OBEs without trying and wanted to better understand them.  He held experiments with eight digit random numbers in other rooms entirely.  They have documented cases with at least a thousand positive results for all eight correct or the eight that were correct being reversed by the person.  This is, unfortunately, a little known fact.  This is my understanding at least.[Wink]



Whoa, since when did Rob Monroe do these experiments? Do you have any links? I do know he did do an experiment I think in the 60's or 70's with Charles Tart, he didn’t make it to the numbers, but he did see stuff that was quite spot on in the book, but I am very interested in these experiments you mention with the eight numbers.




I don't have any links.  I got this information from a book on OBEs in my local library.  It gave several summaries of some of these.  I remember one where they put it in another room.  On the first attempt the person said they couldn't see it because their body in that form was to short.  They put in a stool and the person climbed up to get the numbers dead on.  Another they put it in the rafters and the person said they floated up to find the numbers.  They gave it to the scientists but in reverse.
This is how I remember it.  If you would like I could double check some time when I go to the library for the title.  I remember that the book was thin and black covered.  It had case histories of OBEs and NDEs.  It even mentioned Dr. Monroe's method along with these experiments.  It had silver text for the cover and was actually part of a series about paranormal subjects.  I believe that this was the book, I know that there was a book like this that was very good, but it may not be the one with the experiments.  Hope that helps but I can't remember the details precicely having read this about two years ago or more.
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2004, 20:13:38 »

I’m unaware of the TMI proof too. Perhaps you confuse RAM with Dr. Charles Tart. A greet introduction to Tart's works in this field can be found @ http://www.near-death.com/experiences/skeptic03.html with link to his famous papers "Six Studies of Out-of-the-Body Experiences" (http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles2.cfm?ID=50). I've read it years before but I never get tired of seeing it again.

Hello MajorTom, good to hear about you again!




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The AlphaOmega
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2004, 20:24:10 »

Short answer... nope, no hard evidence.  The only real thing that's ever been documented about an illeged OBE is the hemisphere's of the brain, which work differently, were working equally.
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2004, 23:18:55 »

Hmm, lets look at the book Astral Dynamics.

Robert Bruce was practising real-time sight (Seeing into the Astral). He had been teaching his friend OBE techniques. That night his friend had been trying to OBE. Bruce saw his friend float into the room looking really happy and amazed. He waved at Bruce and Bruce waved back whilst keeping his relaxed state. His friend dissapeared through the wall. The next day, his friend was so excited about it all and they both confirmed things like waving at each other and all.
This means Bruce 'did' indeed see him and that his friend's experience wasn't just a dream.
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Risu no Kairu
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2004, 23:47:15 »

Pffffft. Anecdotal.
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2004, 23:49:58 »

skeptical*
sorry i have no real answer for this topic. although since physical and astral overlap there is i believe some way to prove obe, but that will take time. something that we seem to have plenty of eh?[Wink]
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2004, 04:03:50 »

quote:
Originally posted by APGuy

quote:
Originally posted by manuel

quote:
Originally posted by APGuy

I was very surprised in reading this topic that noone mentioned The Monroe Institute.  As we know it now The Monroe Institute is famous for Hemi-Sync.  However, it was started by a Dr. Monroe who experienced OBEs without trying and wanted to better understand them.  He held experiments with eight digit random numbers in other rooms entirely.  They have documented cases with at least a thousand positive results for all eight correct or the eight that were correct being reversed by the person.  This is, unfortunately, a little known fact.  This is my understanding at least.[Wink]



Whoa, since when did Rob Monroe do these experiments? Do you have any links? I do know he did do an experiment I think in the 60's or 70's with Charles Tart, he didn’t make it to the numbers, but he did see stuff that was quite spot on in the book, but I am very interested in these experiments you mention with the eight numbers.




I don't have any links.  I got this information from a book on OBEs in my local library.  It gave several summaries of some of these.  I remember one where they put it in another room.  On the first attempt the person said they couldn't see it because their body in that form was to short.  They put in a stool and the person climbed up to get the numbers dead on.  Another they put it in the rafters and the person said they floated up to find the numbers.  They gave it to the scientists but in reverse.
This is how I remember it.  If you would like I could double check some time when I go to the library for the title.  I remember that the book was thin and black covered.  It had case histories of OBEs and NDEs.  It even mentioned Dr. Monroe's method along with these experiments.  It had silver text for the cover and was actually part of a series about paranormal subjects.  I believe that this was the book, I know that there was a book like this that was very good, but it may not be the one with the experiments.  Hope that helps but I can't remember the details precicely having read this about two years ago or more.



Yeah man, if you do stumble upon it, I would be interested in knowing the name, i have heard about these experiments.
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2004, 05:08:37 »

From what I've read about OBEs/APs and my experience with lucid dreaming, I don't see a difference between them, so both are the same in my eyes.

- Both can be induced in two different ways ("staying awake" while the body begins to sleep, realizing it while already having the experience)

- Both can be influenced by thoughts, believes, desires etc.

- Depending on how they were induced, both take place in a similar environment

- Both experiences take place while the body sleeps

- Both can happen in REM-/NREM (non-REM) sleep

- Depending on how they were induced, both have the same vividness


Now, brain-thing or not? Well, I'd say yes. I don't see any evidence why it shouldn't. The tests? From what I've read, nearly 100% of the people doing such tests are failing. Not really a high hit ratio.

Robert Monroe, according to his first book, "pinched" a friend of his (him?) while being out of the body. This friend got a bruise because of that. Well, why don't project to someone and pinch him/her, if it works, this would support the OBE-theory. Just a suggestion.

Well, that's how I see it at the moment.
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2004, 05:31:01 »

Well according to this article http://www.soultravel.nu/2004/040419-no_progress/index.asp
Only a mere 2 months of research has been put into these matters in the last 100 years!
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2004, 05:52:25 »

Well, if I understood this article correctly they compared the "amount" of parapsychological research (in the last 100 years) with the "amount" of psychological research (in two months of 1983).

That's normal, in my eyes, that parapsychological research never reaches the amount of psychological research. It is far more difficult to find persons to participate in parapsychological research than in research for "normal" psychology. This implies that these persons either don't want to talk about their abilities and make them "public", or people with these kind of abilities are just incredibly rare.

That's why I think more people with these kind of abilities should participate in such research.
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2004, 05:54:20 »

Yeah its a shame though, be good to get more concrete stuff, I guess thats the way it is with these matters
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2004, 12:05:51 »

About Robert Monroe, i heard about his experiments (or a freind of him, i dont remember). I know only one experience, the one with numbers, that gave any results. The other experiments were inconcludent.

Its always the same with parapsicological experiments. For example, i think that Uri Geller was never able to prrof anything in lab. If it was so, maybe we would heard that on the news : "Scientists proove that Uri powers are real!". I never saw anything like that.

The sites provided by Manuel Seems interesting, i will give it a look.
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Nagual
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2004, 18:05:41 »

I read once about an experiment where they monitored the weight of a projector with very precise scales.  And, supposedly, they noticed a tiny loss of weight, followed later by a tiny increase of the same amount...
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2004, 20:14:00 »

I saw read about the same study once. I hope that it was a serious study, not like the ones made (in a different area: telepathy) by Rhine. It seems that he forged the results...What a shame! We never get good results or good researchs in parapsicological studys.

Until now, the only kind of X-File phenomenon that seems very,very real (with many proofs) itīs the ufos. AP, obes, NDE, telepathy, TK, etc, all of that have inconlcudent results. Thatīs bad. It would be great to know, for example, that we are able to get out of our bodys at any time. Just imagine the beauty and the poetry inside of such concept...
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2004, 00:45:37 »

Poetry indeed my friend, poetry indeed. I will say that I have faith in the way I believe the universe to be formed, but evidence which correlated with my beliefs would be soooo fresh. And about that experiment involving the scales... I have heard of this as well, and, interestingly enough the same methods have been used to predict the net loss of mass at the point of death, and their estimates have supposedly been met many times. It is usually around 1/4 of an ounce, if I recall.

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