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Author Topic: Spiritual Patronage and Angelic Sponsorship  (Read 5118 times)
Leo Volont
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« on: October 21, 2006, 14:04:49 »

Spiritual Patronage and Angelic Sponsorship

We are honored to have on this Page one particular Member, Voice of Silence, who is blessed with Spiritual Patronage – the Visitation of Angels.  This is not so automatic as some New Agers pretend it to be.  Some people are pursued more by the Demonic than by the Angelic.

Here we should determine what makes the difference as to why some are plagued with devils while others are blessed by Angels.  In one of ‘Voice of Silence’s’ recent posts, he asked an Angel about its relationship to God and was assured that the Angelic Rank was indeed the Corporate Body of God.

This suggests the primary Distinction between Good and Evil.  Where Evil is individualistic, egotistical, selfish, even predatory (with its Barbaric Rally Cry of “Freedom, Freedom, Freedom”), we can see that Good is the Polar Opposite – that Good is Collective, Unitary, Communal – All for One and One for All.

So, if one wants Angelic Patronage and Spiritual Sponsorship then one really needs to be a dedicated ‘Team Player’.  One must do more than ‘believe’ in God, or indeed do more than Worship God, but one must become an integral Part of God’s Corporate Body.  Sheep, yes.  Shepherds especially.  But Wolves need not apply.

Here we can also discern the distinctions between the Religious and Atheistic Temperaments.  We hear often from those of Atheistic leanings that Religion is all about Social Control – that the point of Religion is to manipulate people toward socially cohesive behavior.  Well, yes, but the tone of their Argument seems to insist that such Motives are bad things – the Atheist simply assumes that Social Cohesion, even Civilization,  is negative and needs to be avoided and deserves to be condemned. 

We can see this often in Art and Literature, especially in the Movies, where Rebellious Individuals are represented as the sympathetic Protagonist Heroes, and all the Representatives of Collective Society are portrayed as Oppressors and Victimizers.  It is an Odd Paradox, where the Intelligencia of one’s Society holds that Destroying Civilization and bringing on a new Dark Ages of perpetual War of each Individual against all others, that such a dismal state of things is to be preferred to life in a Community at Peace with itself in the spirit of sharing and cooperation.   Some people – mostly authors and screen writers it seems – simply are not ‘Team Players’ and would sympathize with any Individual against any Group.   However, they should realize that this sides them with the Vikings who slaughtered complete monasteries, putting every Monk and Nun to the sword, simply so they could make off with a few golden candlesticks and some silverware.

These Demonic Intellectual and Cultural Influences are extremely pervasive.  The Attacks and Cultural Bias against Religion and Social Cohesiveness are ubiquitous.  Many well intentioned People, being surrounded by these influences, become indoctrinated, and so they become inherently Evil because it seems to be the Social Norm.  It would take some Creative Assertiveness for them to be any different.  The Breakdown of Civilization and the Barbarization of the World is the Tide and most people are content to go along with it.  It has become a Game where everyone is trying to get the most Golden Candlesticks, and little is said that the trick of the game is that one has to kill the Monks first.

Since Evil has become so Universal, then it really would be surprising to find more than a few rare people who enjoy Spiritual Patronage.  I would expect to hear more of Dark Astral Shadowlands, conflicts, battles, where Freedom and Individuality make every Spirit the Enemy of all Others.

So, anyway, if you are wondering why you have no Spiritual Sponsorship, and have not found your Guardian Angel, well, ask yourself whether you deserve such a Blessing?  Have you been their Friend or their Enemy in Life.  Are you a Viking or a Monk?  A Sheep, a Shepherd?  Or are you a wolf just like everybody else in today’s World, simply because that is how you have been raised, educated, and because the New Political Correctness expects you to be that way.
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Zante
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2006, 22:19:56 »

Normally I would ignore posts like this for fear of being chastised if I did ever get involved. But because it has piqued my interest, here I am.

Firstly, I can see that something has made a big impression on you and would ask that you link us to whatever it may be so that we might read it for ourselves.

Secondly, I don't believe that categorizing things into "good and "evil" is conducive to understanding any concept wherein harmony is involved.

Now, in regards to spiritual sponsorship, I'm not sure what it is you mean. I've had a vision wherein Yeshua has been present but I understood the context of the communication. It was an encouraging personal message for myself. I'm not sure if it will offend you when I say this topic is rather vocal in nature. Observations I have made in this thread are that it includes the concept of DNA activation (something which I too believe in), the "repitilian-alien conspiracy" (something which sounds intriguing but I do not believe at this moment) and the pressuring of those who are highly confused into making an awkward decision.

I know that what you are attempting to convey is positive in nature but please understand where you are. This forum is dedicated to discussing OBEs and, as you might have gathered, is a place where people come to discuss their findings in an endeavour to establish some sort of truth. For better or worst, there are people here who might be considered impressionable as well as open-minded and would, at the very least, be curious about what it is you are saying. When I came to these boards about a year or two ago I was a fundamentalist christian, much has changed since then as I have experienced and discussed my findings more and more with people. I do not believe that people who are of a religious preference can be labelled as "evil". Nor do I believe that atheists are any more "evil" than their religiously inclined counterparts.

Your post involves a mixture of attacking and supporting specific concepts which, to others, must make little sense. Labels like "conspiracy buff" come to mind but let's be open-minded about this. I get the gist of what it is you are saying, that it is in reference to the perceived underhanded nature of society and how the neglect of our subconscious could be responsible for it.


Ok, here's what I want to ask you...

Could you please be blunt about what it is you are trying to say?
Why are you saying it?
How do you feel about it personally?

What you have posted, to some, is a lot of nonsense and only pushes them further away from wanting to understand what it is you are talking about.

Edit: This thread really has me confused, apologies for anything I may have misinterpreted.
 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 22:48:54 by Zante » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2006, 22:19:56 »

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Leo Volont
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2006, 23:53:55 »


To continue my comical analysis, it occurs to me that if an Angelic being has large bird wings covered in beautiful feathers, and if they are only representative of feathers and have the appearance of gold or pearl, it doesn't matter. This actually represents a link to the dreaded reptilian DNA because birds are closer to the reptile than our mammal origins.

peace.......


I suppose Angels have traditionally shown themselves with 'wings' in order to emphasize their ability to fly, but I am a member of the 'Superman' Generation and never really needed the support of wings to believe that Angels could Levitate and Fly.   Also, in some parts of the East, their Angels come on Magic Carpets.

They use Wings and Flight in order that they may be recognized.  However, if one simply assumes that anybody being helpful during any Subjective Experience, whether a Dream or an Astral Projection, is an Angel, then they really need not bother with Wings or Flying at all.

Oh, but there is a good way to determine who the Angels are.  By Flying one's  self, that is, if you can Fly.  Ordinary Dream Characters and Entities native to the Planes that one is visiting cannot usually Fly ( unless, I suppose, you are on a fairly high level), but the Angels can, and an Angel will use its power of Flight to keep up with you.  So it is that you should accord some special respect to anybody you meet who is able to Fly, as they are either equal to you or maybe a quite a bit better.   
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2006, 00:05:12 »


 I don't believe that categorizing things into "good and "evil" is conducive to understanding any concept wherein harmony is involved.
 

Actually, anytime that Good tolerates Evil, well, this usually prooves the deathknell for Good.  The Shepherd wants to be a nice guy and so allows the wolves into the sheep pen and the farmer to show how high minded he is allows the foxes into the hen house.  What happens?  No sheep.  No chickens.   And soon no wolves or foxes either.   Barbarism can only feed on Civilization while Civilization is still healthy and able to still thrive.  Once all Good Institutions have been destroyed by Barbaric Evil Institutions, owing to your brand of tolerance for Evil, then Civilization collapses and everybody dies.   

Collapses of Civilization owing to moral degeneracy ALWAYS results in massive depopulations.  Civilized Institutions can simply feed more than a hundred times the population levels that Barbarian Cultures can support.

so you need to think in terms of Civilized and Barbarian, if the terms Good and Evil bother you... but the terms translate into each other one for one.  Good is Civilized.  Evil is Barbarian.  heaven is civilized.  hell is Barbarian. 

Oh, and if you still want to be so supportive of Evil, in order to emphasize your status as most Politically Correct Nice Guy on the Web, well, please, go out and get your car stolen, beaten up and your wallet taken, downsized by a greedy corporation, and then screwed up the butt by a corrupt paulist priest.  And then come back and tell us again that there is no Evil in the World.   
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2006, 00:12:00 »



Firstly, I can see that something has made a big impression on you and would ask that you link us to whatever it may be so that we might read it for ourselves.
 

Oh, you must mean these several Angelic Posts from "The Voice of Silence"

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=24611.0

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=24512.0
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2006, 00:12:00 »



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Leo Volont
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2006, 00:34:37 »

 

... about a year or two ago I was a fundamentalist christian...

 

Interesting development, to go from being a Christian to being an advocate for the fair treatment of Evil.  But, then again, when any Christian defines themself as a 'Fundamentalist' this mains that they are in fact very strict Paulists who believe that if Christ was not murdered so that they can Sin then He would have "died for nothing".  Indeed, it seems that Fundamentalist Christians are only after that big huge licence to Sin.  So it is not surprising to find you such a proponent for Evil now.  You have been following a logical progression.
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Zante
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2006, 00:56:25 »

Ok, thanks for the response.

Yes, I managed to find the posts you were talking about. It's only natural that you would get excited with the connotations they imply. If anything, they must re-affirm your own belief (which I hope you have considered may be subjective) in whatever it is you're trying to communicate to us.

Oh, and if you still want to be so supportive of Evil, in order to emphasize your status as most Politically Correct Nice Guy on the Web, well, please, go out and get your car stolen, beaten up and your wallet taken, downsized by a greedy corporation, and then screwed up the butt by a corrupt paulist priest.  And then come back and tell us again that there is no Evil in the World.   

This concerns me. You are attempting to make it seem as though I am consciously supportive of something negative ("evil" as you say) which you believe I understand in the same way you do. This allows you to see me as this "evil" you have such an attachment with. You probably believe that I am something which requires contending with due to what you perceive as my complacent indecision regarding the matter of distinguishing which part of the spectrum I belong to ("good" or "evil").

I understand that, with what you are trying to convey to me, you have placed a positive intent. I can respect this as I know you are only attempting to be informative. However, if you want me to talk to you without proper consideration (as you are with me) then I might even imply that "you are full of it", derogatory as it may be. In reality, that isn't going to get us anywhere as butting heads with belief systems is an exercise in futility. It's hardly the most flattering means of communication either. By categorizing things into "good" and "evil" you fail to understand that you cannot understand one without experiencing the other. I do not know about your past but I am sympathetic with the affect it may have had on you.

I don't see evil anymore, I see confusion. I see people who are unable to help themselves and require healing. Again, I don't want to contend with what you believe in, I simply want you to look at your first post and summarise it. Read it back to yourself and perhaps consider how absurd the concept of "spiritual sponsorship" might be when considering the infinite, unconditional love available to us from places we have yet to fully understand. What's more, you are comparing your experience with someone else's (Voice_of_Silence's) and have perhaps developed a mental state not unlike a feeling of inadequacy (inadequacy with your own experience{s}or with what you believe other people are failing to achieve). Obviously you wanted to express it and that is why you posted in the first place. Again, I appreciate the point of view but would ask that you do not inflict it upon those who are innocent of your perceived problems. Feelings of guilt and shame are not going to instill any amount of truth in people. It would have been different if you had made an attempt at inspiring people but all it was, in truth, is a rant.

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Leo Volont
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2006, 01:33:37 »


I don't see evil anymore, I see confusion.


Actually you should be saying that you do not think clearly anymore, but that you are confused.

Ghenghis Khan, the Greatest and most Successful Barbarian in History, was once asked what gave him the most pleasure, and he replied "To sit in a man's favorite chair while his wife and daughters are raped in front of him, while his properties are being pillaged and his home and barns burned down, and then to finally torture him to death.  That makes me the happiest".

the most successful Thieves, Bandits, Businessmen and Politicians are very very clear on what they are doing.  Success in Evil does not come arbitrarily or by accident.  It is planned and deliberate.

Indeed, Angels once appeared to me and gave me a lecture upon Moral Responsibility and the Red and Black Sins.  Red Sins are sins of the body and of the passions and appetites, and can easily be left behind at death when the body is left behind, because the Red Sins were very much caused almost exclusively by the concerns of the body.  But the Black Sins are the intentional and deliberate acts of Evil -- car theft, burglury, exploitation, registering as a Republican.

so, no, people are not often confused when they choose themselves over others, or rather, the Successful Ones aren't confused.

But apparently enough, you are.
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Zante
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2006, 02:14:04 »

Ok, thanks for the response Leo.

Just very quickly, I know you're trying to get under my skin. In fact you have been making deliberate attempts at provoking me since I first replied. I'm not sure how this fits into your perception of "good" and evil" but then again it doesn't matter to me that much, it's just that they take up a lot of your posting space. Again, I'm not here to contend with you but you do interest me. So that aside...

I believe you are a "good" person. I believe that in the same way I am trying to help you understand my way of thinking, you are trying to help me understand yours. By my perception you may not be the most tactful of people but I understand where you are coming from.

I am intrigued by this notion of colour-coded sinning. What do you suppose the significance of this colour coding is?

Red could be blood, black could be a void perhaps, something berift of creation/choice I mean.

Forgive me for asking this as it's not intended to offend, was that bit about the republicans a joke? (I'm not into American politics).

If not, did these angels really tell you these things?

I'd like to discuss it some more with you but the insults are getting to be a bit much now : (

I know you have things to say which you want to share but I can't do much as long as you keep trying to offend me like this. I know it's how you have chosen to communicate but it really is horribly inefficient when talking about concepts which are meant to be enlightening for humanity.




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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2006, 04:58:48 »

Look man I don't know about this stuff. I think I already posted my opinion in that Angelic thread.

Enegery forms will probably appear in a way thats best suited for the viewer so that he can understand it.
So for Christians it will be Angels. For Atheists balls of light.
I still don't believe there is a God in the traditional sense. I also don't believe in Angels in the traditional sense even though someone claims to see them. I will probably see the same thing different.
But then again I might be wrong.

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Leo Volont
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 07:33:24 »


For Atheists balls of light.


Huh!?

The Point about Atheism is not that there is NO Anthropomorphic God, but that there is NO GOD.

No God.  No Spiritualism.  No Subjective Reality.

The Atheist is in fact a Pure Materialist.  he would have to be.  To Eliminate God then EVERYTHING outside of the Self needs to be similarly dismissed.

So, no, an Atheist cannot 'believe' in any Balls of Light.  They would be 'God'. Similarly anything Psychic would be the Perceptions of God.  Collective Consciousness would be the Consciousness of God. You see where I am going with this?  Atheists get to keep nothing. 

John Dunne said "No man is an Island".  Well, he was Religious.  Atheists must put it quite the other way -- to Atheists "Each man is an Island". 
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 09:13:05 »

My point wath the Atheist was that he is wrong and there is something but it will appear in a form thats best suited for him so that he can understand it.

So after reading your explanation maybe he will be confronted with himself while people who believe in God will see Angels.
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2006, 10:00:39 »

My point wath the Atheist was that he is wrong and there is something but it will appear in a form thats best suited for him so that he can understand it.

So after reading your explanation maybe he will be confronted with himself while people who believe in God will see Angels.

Yes, I understand your point. 

These people may not be too bright and may not realize that having so many inherently spiritual assumptions and beliefs is inconsistent with the Atheism they cherish.

They may not be Atheists because they honestly suppose that there is no existential foundation for God, but because they feel being an Atheist is more consistent with their rejection of Moral Responsibility.

It is easier to screw around, take drugs, cheat on tests and lie to the boss if they are Atheists. 
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2006, 15:32:13 »

Leo, it may be that you assume too much. It's evident that you're being pretty judgemental over all this and it's also now clear that you hold spite towards your fellow man. While I'm sure you have your reasons for this I can't help but notice that there is a lot of negativity in your posts. Consider then, for a moment, that we have "atheists" browsing these forums. This is not an ideal way of inviting them to participate in a balanced discussion. You may believe that you are being considerate and, while it might be strange for others to consider, I do believe you are making some sort of an effort. By your own standards you might even consider yourself to be calm right now. Nonetheless, the fact that you're making attempts to provoke your target audience in the hope that they take a stab at you still remains.

I know you are aware of this, is this not a malicious intent you are harboring?
Is this what you consider to be "good"?

Many individuals have different ideas regarding such concepts and you of all people should realise this. If you consider yourself to be a shining example of what is righteous why is it that you identify more with your concept of evil. It's all you seem to talk about I've noticed.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2006, 18:20:53 »

Quote from: Leo Volent
so, no, people are not often confused when they choose themselves over others, or rather, the Successful Ones aren't confused.

I have to say that I disagree with this remark.  I do believe that for the large part, people immersed in selfishness for the purpose of personal gain, perhaps at the expense of others, are in fact guilty of "confused thinking".  The best way to better ourselves, in the long run, is to help all of those around us.  In this way we build a society which can maintain and support itself, and help all of the members of that society.  People who selfishly think only of themselves do not understand this idea.  All they understand is the idea of immediate gain from helping themselves.  This is short-sighted and I see it as "confused thinking" rather than evil.  On the whole, that is.  I'm not saying that there are no bad peple, but that by and large, those people who are trying to get on in life without too much consideration for others are basically "unintelligent" or "confused", rather than "bad" or "evil" people.

I think it's over simplistic to define a binary spectrum of "good" and "evil" and then to place people firmly into one camp or the other.  This simply isn't the case.  There are very many shades and dimensions into which to place people rather  than just "good" or "bad".

Quote from: Leo Volent
So, anyway, if you are wondering why you have no Spiritual Sponsorship, and have not found your Guardian Angel, well, ask yourself whether you deserve such a Blessing?  Have you been their Friend or their Enemy in Life.  Are you a Viking or a Monk?  A Sheep, a Shepherd?  Or are you a wolf just like everybody else in today’s World, simply because that is how you have been raised, educated, and because the New Political Correctness expects you to be that way.

I don't think this is accurate either.  If you investigate the many accounts of people who have Near Death Experiences you will find many examples of people who were approached by higher beings, of unjudgemental and uncoditional love.  The NDE'r experiences a life-review, in which he is able to see the effects of his life-actions on other people, and he is able to judge himself by observing his own actions.  Whilst this is going on, the higher being makes no judgement whatsoever, and in fact radiates unconditional love towards the NDE'r.  Such love is not withheld from NDE'rs who have led a selfish life.  It is given unconditionally.  You will find many cases of "selfish" people who were transformed by an encounter with an unjudgemental being of love.

I do not believe we need to live a blameless life to meet an angel.  A meeting with an angel can transform a selfish person into a selfless person.  It would be a shame for an angel to waste an opportunity to transform a selfish person, and in fact withholding the experience makes no sense at all.

So I have to say that I think that anyone can meet an angel or "higher being".  I think we have to ask and perhaps it will be granted us.  I see as much, if not more, benefit in granting this experience to "bad" people as well as "good".
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2006, 19:02:13 »

It is easier to screw around, take drugs, cheat on tests and lie to the boss if they are Atheists. 

Is it?  Jesus died for our sins, therefore we all are forgiven anyway...  wink

Sarah

PS  And no, I'm not religious, nor am I an atheist - I like to think of myself as a total "not a clue" type of person.
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2006, 22:30:34 »

I have to say that I disagree with this remark.  I do believe that for the large part, people immersed in selfishness for the purpose of personal gain, perhaps at the expense of others, are in fact guilty of "confused thinking".  The best way to better ourselves, in the long run, is to help all of those around us.  In this way we build a society which can maintain and support itself, and help all of the members of that society.  People who selfishly think only of themselves do not understand this idea.  All they understand is the idea of immediate gain from helping themselves.  This is short-sighted and I see it as "confused thinking" rather than evil.  On the whole, that is.  I'm not saying that there are no bad peple, but that by and large, those people who are trying to get on in life without too much consideration for others are basically "unintelligent" or "confused", rather than "bad" or "evil" people.

I think it's over simplistic to define a binary spectrum of "good" and "evil" and then to place people firmly into one camp or the other.  This simply isn't the case.  There are very many shades and dimensions into which to place people rather  than just "good" or "bad".

I don't think this is accurate either.  If you investigate the many accounts of people who have Near Death Experiences you will find many examples of people who were approached by higher beings, of unjudgemental and uncoditional love.  The NDE'r experiences a life-review, in which he is able to see the effects of his life-actions on other people, and he is able to judge himself by observing his own actions.  Whilst this is going on, the higher being makes no judgement whatsoever, and in fact radiates unconditional love towards the NDE'r.  Such love is not withheld from NDE'rs who have led a selfish life.  It is given unconditionally.  You will find many cases of "selfish" people who were transformed by an encounter with an unjudgemental being of love.

I do not believe we need to live a blameless life to meet an angel.  A meeting with an angel can transform a selfish person into a selfless person.  It would be a shame for an angel to waste an opportunity to transform a selfish person, and in fact withholding the experience makes no sense at all.

So I have to say that I think that anyone can meet an angel or "higher being".  I think we have to ask and perhaps it will be granted us.  I see as much, if not more, benefit in granting this experience to "bad" people as well as "good".

Good is as Good does.  Likewise, Evil can be seen in its effects.  Now, you can't confuse, as you have, Evil with Moral Responsibility.  Yes, indeed, I agree 100% that many people simply do not display enough Intelligence so that we can attribute to them any actual Moral Responsibility.  They do what they see other people do.  But this does not make it right, does it.  Evil is still Evil whether or not it comes from a True Innovator of Evil Designs, or simply from a stupid copy-cat.

Indeed, this is why I am such an advocate for Institutionalized Religion (and would prefer it if we could ever build up a Civilization with a Very Good and True Religion).  Where so many people fall short of being able to exert any real Moral Responsibility for themselves, then it would serve a great utility if there were a great many Social and Cultural Institutions that emphasized the practices and habits of consistent Moral Behavior.  As it is now, I would guess there are actually more bad examples, and more bad Institutions than good examples and good institutions.

Your point about the Transformative and Beneficial Influence of Angels on 'morally confused' people.  Yes, it would be nice to think so.  But I have heard so many dreams from these 'morally confused' people, and they simply were not giving their Angels much of the benefit of their doubts.   The Angels seem too vague in their messages and are ignored.  The Angels are not convenient to their selfish lifestyles and so they are dismissed as bubbles rising up from a meaningless and arbitrary Subconscious Mind.  Even idiots are well studied in Materialism.

 And has anybody ever heard of Angels dragging souls off to the Higher Planes, dragging them up against their wills, forcing their Good Lessons upon ingorant souls until their confusion is clarified.  Well, maybe.  Sometimes the Hard Lessons of Life are sufficient to work a rapid moral transformation, and who is to say that the Angels are not responsible agents for the Times of Trouble that instigate the requisite moral reflections and conversions.   Indeed, it is part of Catholic Tradition, and I have seen similar applications in regards the Oriental Views on Karma, that one can pray for Angelic Intercession into the lives of others, particularly if one dedicates penance and atonement in that direction.  In this sense, the sense of atonement, when one 'prays' for another, the important matter is not what is said in the prayer, but simply the work, effort, and even the suffering that is endured.  Angels respond to intensity.

But in these days there is so little intensity.  Even Catholics have slacked off.  After Vatican II the Bishops decided that Catholics should be as comfortable as Protestants, and Fasts and Penances were largely abandoned.  And over the rest of the World the Veil of Skeptical Materialism obscures any sense for spiritual enthusiasm.  So very few people even pray and do penance for themselves, before putting the effort into doing penance for the benefit of others.

But while we are on the subject, the subject of Penance, it might be remarkable that there had been so much suffering recently in the 20th Century.  Yes, very few people volunteered to suffer.  Suffering was mostly inflicted upon them.  But still we might expect some eventual Karmic Rebound.  The Church has a clique "The Church thrives on the Blood of Martyrs".  Times of Trouble are followed by periods of Moral Regeneration.  Well, not always.  Sometimes Suffering Civilizations are barbarized by the Barbarians who bring upon them their suffering.  Here we can note that Zionism is the mirror image of Nazism, and if the Jewish People remembered anything of the Holocaust, it is how to inflict similar atrocities upon others.  But perhaps we need to think in terms of Cosmic Time Frames.  Corrupted Civilizations must be allowed to completely die, to completely fall down.  Suffering must be passed from generation to generation until the dead Civilization is totally reduced to ashes.  And then, finally, the accumulated Grace in recompense for all of the previous suffering can come to the New Civilization.       
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2006, 22:34:57 »

Is it?  Jesus died for our sins, therefore we all are forgiven anyway...  wink

Sarah



Yes, exactly.

And Christians wonder why the World's Higher Religions are reluctant about extending Membership to them.

Religion should NEVER be an excuse to Sin, but many Christians suppose that is the very purpose of Religion -- to provide "Salvation". 

It is really not ethical.  And not good Religion should have ethical problems (note the Bishops and their corps of Pedophile Priests, all Forgiven of their Sins). 
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2006, 22:44:06 »

Leo, it may be that you assume too much. It's evident that you're being pretty judgemental over all this and it's also now clear that you hold spite towards your fellow man. While I'm sure you have your reasons for this I can't help but notice that there is a lot of negativity in your posts. Consider then, for a moment, that we have "atheists" browsing these forums. This is not an ideal way of inviting them to participate in a balanced discussion. You may believe that you are being considerate and, while it might be strange for others to consider, I do believe you are making some sort of an effort. By your own standards you might even consider yourself to be calm right now. Nonetheless, the fact that you're making attempts to provoke your target audience in the hope that they take a stab at you still remains.

I know you are aware of this, is this not a malicious intent you are harboring?
Is this what you consider to be "good"?

Many individuals have different ideas regarding such concepts and you of all people should realise this. If you consider yourself to be a shining example of what is righteous why is it that you identify more with your concept of evil. It's all you seem to talk about I've noticed.

Yes, I'm "judgemental".  Look at the Sermon on the Mount.  The entire message is Moral Judgment.

Moral Behavior does matter.

Look, the Atheists are the first to comb the History Books to find every morally dubious action ever committed by any Religious Society, even when Secular Societies do the same but to a far worse degree.   Atheists are VERY judgemental.  So if there is to be a Moral Argument, then I should like to participate.   You are proposing a contest in which only myself am supposed to tie my hands behind my back.

And, then, I am sure I mentioned this argument before, but you dismissed it as 'negative' without appreciating the sense of it, that you would have a greater appreciation for Judgement against Evil yourself if you had been more of a Victim instead of a Victimizer.   It is easy for the Predators to be Philosophical.  Watch the play "The Lion King" and see the Lions sing of the convenient Doctrine of Food Chain Supremacy.  They can be perfectly even-minded about inflicting pain and death upon others.  They have not been the ones who suffered.   If YOU had ever been the Victim, perhaps you would have more sympathy.  You would not be such a thoroughgoing defender of Evil.   
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2006, 06:34:15 »


It's evident that you're being pretty judgemental over all this


It occurred to me that your accusations about my being "judgmental" are, well, 'judgmental'.

Yes, in the present Popular Mood, with the Tide of Political Correctitude as it is, the only decent morality to have is no morality at all -- to be entirely Relativistic, and to approve any behavior by anybody just so long as that is what they feel like doing.

However, if we are to be truly intellectual, then you must allow that people be free to express opinions that are not so utterly behind the notion of Moral Relativity.

Your pointing out that I am not Politically Correct is hardly an argument.

And it is you who are being not only judgmental, but because you offer no substantiating argument, it rather shows you be be bigotted and prejudicial in your tendencies.

I am glad you don't have my address, or I fear you would send somebody to have me shot for not conforming to your amoral and profligate World... for not being a Republican. 
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Zante
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2006, 02:23:56 »

Leo, we ought to put this in context.

The aim of your original post was to instill a degree of shame in people based on what you perceive to be the "real goal" in pursuing an OOBE. Leo, you enjoy placing people in categories, something which is clearly evident and lacks any real room for consideration of an individual's thought process, judgemental or not. You keep mentioning "political correctness" when all I am attempting to be is rational. Some of your posts have a tendency to scare people away as the emotion you invest in your arguments is just too much to bear in many cases.

You are rational Leo, but you come over as being overly negative in many instances. Combine that with what you believe to be the truth and it makes conversation a slightly awkward affair. Many people don't take the time to address it directly and all I am doing is speaking on their behalf (something which I understood from the start to be challenging).

I have great respect for what you believe in but I notice from your replies that you have none for what it is that I or many others believe. This is because you feel as though you are justified in what you are doing, no not because you are trying to annoy anyone (I understand this). Your intent is to be informative.

You would provoke a different response from many people if you would consider adopting a less intimidating stance in your replies. As it is now, Leo, you tend to leave little room for discussion and that is why I have presented no argument against what it is you originally stated. I am simply exposing your state of mind in the hope that you may be persuaded to be a little more accommodating towards other peoples opinions. I am grateful for your opinion Leo, it might help to be more encouraging when dicussing those of other peoples too.

There's no need for all this excessive force. We are here to share ideas and beliefs (and to see them as such, "ideas" and "beliefs").

God bless.

Edit: Some of the things you say are so profound, they're fantastic notions. Just go easy on those of us who aren't as certain of what you believe to be the truth : )
« Last Edit: October 29, 2006, 04:04:16 by Zante » Logged
Leo Volont
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2006, 06:13:33 »


 As it is now, Leo, you tend to leave little room for discussion and that is why I have presented no argument against what it is you originally stated.


Yes, I quite understand.  You read what I say, and can find nothing wrong with it, but since it doesn't seem to be politically correct, you can't bring yourself to endorse it.  It might make you unpopular.

So you say nothing except to warn me that I am being terribly Non-PC.

And from this you think it is I that has the Problem. 
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SpeaK
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2006, 09:31:55 »

You read what I say, and can find nothing wrong with it

Uhm, I don't think this is quite what he said.
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2006, 10:34:45 »

Uhm, I don't think this is quite what he said.

Yes.  You're right.  He said he was struck dumb by it all.

Well, being an inarticulate school boy is hardly much of an argument. 
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SpeaK
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2006, 10:45:08 »

Yes.  You're right.  He said he was struck dumb by it all.

Well, being an inarticulate school boy is hardly much of an argument. 

I see it's of no use to debate with you. And I won't back this up with anything because it wouldn't make any difference. This is my last post to this thread.
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